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Author Topic: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010  (Read 133802 times)

Tormuse

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #400 on: 03 Sep 2010, 08:46 »

Men NEVER get over epic titties.  We just... learn to live without.


So true...

Natural D-cups...  *sigh*
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #401 on: 03 Sep 2010, 08:58 »

Why is it that when any drama surfaces, the people here always seem to blame Sven for it.

Well, seeing that he even managed to upset Anders!
Who the hell is Anders? Would you please give us a link to somewhere we could learn more about him?
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“Oh yes, it hurts at times to be alone among the stars. But it hurts a lot more to be alone at a party. A lot more.” - George R. R. Martin

Carl-E

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #402 on: 03 Sep 2010, 09:15 »

From Anders Loves Maria, which is a finished webcomic linked on the QC homepage. 

Really good reading! 

And I'd never seen this non-canon page before.  Now I gotta go diggin'!
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #403 on: 03 Sep 2010, 09:26 »

Oh, thanks, I should have guessed it was a webcomic. But since the link was direct to an image and I was too lazy to tinker with the URL to find out, I prefered to ask the question - and by the way point out to pwhodges that linking to an image in a webcomic, instead of linking to the page, is rude and impractical.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #404 on: 03 Sep 2010, 09:37 »

Sorry - but I guessed that most people here knew it, and the page containing it has all the guest strips with no anchors to make a link to the required one.  That was a guest strip when Renee (the author) had writer's block, but she moved all the guest strips away from the story afterwards.
« Last Edit: 03 Sep 2010, 09:39 by pwhodges »
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #405 on: 03 Sep 2010, 09:39 »

Well sorry for having been too abrasive (as I aknowledge on rereading my posts).
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ChippyD

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #406 on: 03 Sep 2010, 09:53 »

Y'know it occurs to me that if Marten stews into this enough, and if he finally felt the inclination to let loose a little venom, he could easily fling this right back in Dora's face two-fold.

1. We don't know what Dora's past experience with romance was that made her like this, provided anything happened at all. But it had better be super traumatic, because I recall Martin going into very specific detail about moving across the entire United States of America to be with a girl...Who eventually dumped him within a month of settling down.
2. Martin might work at an all-girl college. But at the same time, Dora gets hit on how many times a day by customers?
3. Martin cuts his hair. She freaks. Dora dyes her hair PURPLE without giving any notice. Martin is okay with this. Double standard.
4. Dora is bisexual. Being near anyone could make her look bad.

Anyway you slice it, Dora's in danger of major retribution if she doesn't realize how good she actually has it, and how unbeleivably tollerant Martin has been, despite glaring double-standards popping up everywhere.
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dps

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #407 on: 03 Sep 2010, 10:36 »


In this instance, I read that as less longing for Faye and much more longing for Faye's boobs.  

I read it that way too.  Either way, I don't think that Sven was the best choice for someone for Marten to talk to.
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Heliphyneau

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #408 on: 03 Sep 2010, 10:46 »

Awesome Monty Python reference in the title today! :-D

Agreed!  I actually meant to mention that last time I posted but got distracted by other stuff.  Monty Python and the Holy Grail ftw!

Why is it that when any drama surfaces, the people here always seem to blame Sven for it.
I don't know what you are speaking about. On the matter at hand, we've had hints that he may have played a role.

Sven did play a role in Dora's developing trust issues, but he is not to blame for the choices she's made.  Dora is an adult and has been in who knows how many relationships at this point -- maybe we'll be hearing about some of them in this arc.  Whatever may be influencing her, the choices she makes are her own and no one else gets to take credit or blame for them.  Hopefully the talking-to by Faye will help her re-examine some of those choices.

Oh, and Tergon, one of your Useless Brooms Made Entirely of Dicks must have washed out to sea, but some fishermen found it for you:

http://io9.com/5629024/look-+-its-a-baby-mi+go-caught-by-divers-off-the-coast-of-japan
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IanClark

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #409 on: 03 Sep 2010, 12:01 »

Oh, and Tergon, one of your Useless Brooms Made Entirely of Dicks must have washed out to sea, but some fishermen found it for you:

http://io9.com/5629024/look-+-its-a-baby-mi+go-caught-by-divers-off-the-coast-of-japan

I give it three days before someone draws the porn, then five days until it ends up on the Pintsize Twitter account.
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Mojo

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #410 on: 03 Sep 2010, 12:21 »

Quote
In this instance, I read that as less longing for Faye and much more longing for Faye's boobs.


In fairness, I don't think we can hold this against him.  Faye's not even real an I've had a longing for her boobs...

 :-D
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Carl-E

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #411 on: 03 Sep 2010, 12:30 »

Sven did play a role in Dora's developing trust issues, but he is not to blame for the choices she's made.  Dora is an adult and has been in who knows how many relationships at this point -- maybe we'll be hearing about some of them in this arc.  Whatever may be influencing her, the choices she makes are her own and no one else gets to take credit or blame for them.  Hopefully the talking-to by Faye will help her re-examine some of those choices.

OK, I have to call you on this.  No matter how old we get, and no matter how rational we like to think we are, each of us is, to some extent, the product of our upbringing.  The older I get, the more I realize that a lot of my first reactions to things aren't even mine - they were my parent's, my brother's, my early friend's... and I adopted them.  That's not to say I don't make my own decisions, and think further than my first reactions; but it does mean that I need to recognize where those first reactions are coming from before I can deal with them rationally.  

But they're still there.  And when I was younger, I didn't even realize where they were coming from.  And Dora may be an adult, but a younger one.  Faye's pointed out that her reaction was really effed up, but we don't know (yet) where it came from, and the only clue we really have is a shord tirade about Sven.  

That may be a large part of it, after all.  It probably runs a lot deeper, though.  We'll see, I hope.  And then we'll see how everyone involved deals with it.  

And then we'll see how Pintsize mocks it.  
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Heliphyneau

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #412 on: 03 Sep 2010, 14:01 »

Sven did play a role in Dora's developing trust issues, but he is not to blame for the choices she's made.  Dora is an adult and has been in who knows how many relationships at this point -- maybe we'll be hearing about some of them in this arc.  Whatever may be influencing her, the choices she makes are her own and no one else gets to take credit or blame for them.  Hopefully the talking-to by Faye will help her re-examine some of those choices.

OK, I have to call you on this.  No matter how old we get, and no matter how rational we like to think we are, each of us is, to some extent, the product of our upbringing.  The older I get, the more I realize that a lot of my first reactions to things aren't even mine - they were my parent's, my brother's, my early friend's... and I adopted them.  That's not to say I don't make my own decisions, and think further than my first reactions; but it does mean that I need to recognize where those first reactions are coming from before I can deal with them rationally.  

But they're still there.  And when I was younger, I didn't even realize where they were coming from.  And Dora may be an adult, but a younger one.  Faye's pointed out that her reaction was really effed up, but we don't know (yet) where it came from, and the only clue we really have is a shord tirade about Sven.  

That may be a large part of it, after all.  It probably runs a lot deeper, though.  We'll see, I hope.  And then we'll see how everyone involved deals with it.  

And then we'll see how Pintsize mocks it.  

Of course our upbringing shapes us -- every experience does, that was part of my point.  That doesn't change a person's responsibility for the decisions they make even as a consequence of that upbringing.  Dora's already acknowledged the effect Sven's behavior has had on her decisions, as you basically pointed out.  What other influences might be at play remains to be seen.  To say that your reactions aren't even yours because you adopted them from other people, well, you adopted them, consciously or not.  You are still responsible.  I get what you're saying about needing to be aware of these things, and Dora is likely in need of raising her self-awareness further, but my response was to someone who thought everyone here was blaming Sven for Dora's problems.  Sven certainly has his culpability for the way his behaviors have affected his younger sister -- his choices are his responsibility, after all -- but that doesn't make him responsible for every decision she makes.

I have a feeling that we'll be learning a bunch more about Dora and Sven in this new arc.  I'm looking forward to it, and to seeing the characters grow further.

As to Pintsize, he will mock it with tentacle/horse porn.  Or dickbroom porn, whichever.   :wink:
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Blackjoker

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #413 on: 03 Sep 2010, 16:00 »

Great, now I imagine Pintsize ordering dozens of dickbrooms to sweep away the drama in the apartment and all of them arriving when they have company over...it would be hilarious but wrong.
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raoullefere

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #414 on: 03 Sep 2010, 16:04 »

Actually, if we want to delve into it, if Sven's passive poaching of Dora's friends has produced this lack of trust she has (and I suspect it's at least the basis, and after it, the rest probably became the same sort of self-fulfilling prophecy Dora's creating now, with each incident making things worse by reinforcing her fears), then Sven's not so much to blame as his and Dora's parents are. They were the responsible ones—but if you read the comics in which they appear, it tends to look like they're not, mostly. Too busy recreating with drugs and pinching Nancy Reagan's bony ass. Which, btw, indicates to me pot was the least of the recreational substances Pa Bianchi was on.
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tomart

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #415 on: 03 Sep 2010, 16:42 »

When we experience the epicness - something... changes... in our brains,...   We are never the same, and those moments are seared into our minds forever.  

If the QC forum learns anything about the male gender this day, let it be this:

Men NEVER get over epic titties.  We just... learn to live without.


Solemnly, Sincerely, Seconded, My Brothah . . .

Amen.
« Last Edit: 05 Sep 2010, 09:13 by tomart »
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tomart

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #416 on: 03 Sep 2010, 16:58 »

Of all the creeps, in all the streets, in all the town, Marten runs across this one. The Makeout Hobo could give better advice.

Oh, come on, ....  The Makeout Hobo is the total Creepasaur, his "Advice" self-serving claptrap.
 
Au contraire, this was another Golden QC Moment!   "Serious [Drama] Serious [Character Development] Serious - Boob Joke!"  
(Each panel driving up the Serious Itching to see who Marten is spilling his guts to!)   Tension release by Sven and Jeph, I'm guessing, with (hopefully) more serious Sven-sharing soon.  

Like others, I'm hoping this arc brings us Dora & Sven backstory, maybe like The Talk (though that'd be hard, & unnecessary, to beat.)  I've rather liked Dora over these past few years, and feel she's acting out & getting a bad rap right now.  Lots of times, she's been the wiser, more mature core character.  I 'spect some selected looks back at her & her bro's past might well redeem her, and  (by sometime in 2011, RT)  she and Marten could be on a more solid foundation.
« Last Edit: 03 Sep 2010, 18:45 by tomart »
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numbvox

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #417 on: 03 Sep 2010, 17:37 »

Oh, and Tergon, one of your Useless Brooms Made Entirely of Dicks must have washed out to sea, but some fishermen found it for you:

http://io9.com/5629024/look-+-its-a-baby-mi+go-caught-by-divers-off-the-coast-of-japan

I give it three days before someone draws the porn, then five days until it ends up on the Pintsize Twitter account.

...omg what the fuck did I see in that link!?
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #418 on: 03 Sep 2010, 18:06 »

Seriously, though: There has GOT to be more to the Bianchi clan's family dynamics than either Dora or Sven is letting on.

Mom and Dad don't exactly sound like they were around much, and when they were it doesn't sound like they were much for parenting. Kids of parents who were sixties hippies were already around back when I was in HS - Sven strikes me as a "Ferris Bueller" type. Of course, John Hughes never had a character like Dora (though he may have come close to it with Ally Sheedy's character in Breakfast Club).

Let's see if we can tick off what the dynamics were (this is from 1107):

  • Everything's always about HIM. Every other girl at school had a crush on him. Sven apparently took after dad. Not as a philanderer, but just self-assured. And he was decent looking enough that girls flocked to him. (I've never actually seen types like this IRL, so I have no idea if this is the case.)
  • Half my friends were just pretending they liked me so they could sneak up to his room and make out. That could lead to HUGE trust issues on the part of Dora - especially if she didn't know which half it was.
  • He was Mr. Popular and I was just his weird little sister who had bad skin and wore too much black. Some of the "too much black" may have been her reaction/rebellion over his popularity -and her "angst" over not having "normal" parental figures around.
  • He doesn't even have to TRY! He cruised through HS and college, never studied and still got perfect grades. Meantime I'm busting my ass to make C's and D's. This one I'm not too sure I believe. In retrospect, I didn't really try all that hard in college and got good (not perfect) grades. Sven might have found his coursework "beneath him" (get the feeling he was a history major or something?). I'd love to know what Dora's major was in (if, in fact, she managed to finish school). I'm betting it was econ or business administration or something.
  • Then after school, he writes completely stupid f'ing songs and paychecks come rolling in. I can barely afford a living wage. Okay, this is just projection on Dora's part. Yes, Sven didn't have to try hard at writing songs. Yes, country music (actually, when you think about it, all popular music) is pretty easy to write. (As an aside, the one thing that's always bothered me about Sven is that he doesn't live in Nashville. But I can understand his reluctance to live there, since he'd probably have issues just walking out to the coffee shop in West End. You know, Vandy co-eds.)  Dora's doing a kick-ass job at being her own boss and owning her own (pretty dang profitable) business. Success, as they say, is relative.

Bottom line is, I honestly think there's more to the Sven-Dora dynamic than she wants to admit - and more than Sven probably realizes.
« Last Edit: 03 Sep 2010, 18:17 by jwhouk »
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #419 on: 03 Sep 2010, 19:29 »

Sven strikes me as a "Ferris Bueller" type.
Wrong analogy. If I remember the movie right, Ferris comes to a loose undestanding with his sister, and she ultimately saves his ass. I've always found the dynamics at play between Ferris and his sister the most interesting part of the movie, anyway. The rest of the movie, and Ferris as a character, are quite "meh", IMHO.
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muffmasta

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #420 on: 03 Sep 2010, 19:49 »

Oh man, never refer to a girls tits as "saggy". Worst insult (to physical appearance at least) ever. Even if he meant it as a compliment. Although don't see how that could be taken as complimentary.
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St.Clair

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #421 on: 03 Sep 2010, 20:41 »

Sven strikes me as a "Ferris Bueller" type.
Wrong analogy. If I remember the movie right, Ferris comes to a loose undestanding with his sister, and she ultimately saves his ass. I've always found the dynamics at play between Ferris and his sister the most interesting part of the movie, anyway. The rest of the movie, and Ferris as a character, are quite "meh", IMHO.
Yes, over the course of the movie.  But she's initially quite jealous of him and his easy success, saying so to a random guy (Charlie Sheen) she meets at the police station, who helps her get over it.  Even at the end, she's ready to let Ferris twist in the wind until she realizes who he's facing - Rooney, who she hates even more.
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raoullefere

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #422 on: 03 Sep 2010, 21:30 »

Of all the creeps, in all the streets, in all the town, Marten runs across this one. The Makeout Hobo could give better advice.

Oh, come on, ....  The Makeout Hobo is the total Creepasaur, his "Advice" self-serving claptrap.
 
Au contraire, this was another Golden QC Moment!   "Serious [Drama] Serious [Character Development] Serious - Boob Joke!"  
(Each panel driving up the Serious Itching to see who Marten is spilling his guts to!)   Tension release by Sven and Jeph, I'm guessing, with (hopefully) more serious Sven-sharing soon.  

Like others, I'm hoping this arc brings us Dora & Sven backstory, maybe like The Talk (though that'd be hard, & unnecessary, to beat.)  I've rather liked Dora over these past few years, and feel she's acting out & getting a bad rap right now.  Lots of times, she's been the wiser, more mature core character.  I 'spect some selected looks back at her & her bro's past might well redeem her, and  (by sometime in 2011, RT)  she and Marten could be on a more solid foundation.
Self-serving claptrap would probably be better than memory-drooling about Faye's breasts. It may be, of course, that Sven's 'got nuthin' and is trying to be funny, but it's an awful creepy way to go about it, given that Marten, except for one accident, never saw Faye's breasts in the entire time he was mooning after her AND that him wanting to (among other things, in Dora's mind) is the issue at hand.

Besides, I couldn't call Sven a gin joint and expect to be taken seriously. Or however I'm usually taken on here.

Bottom line is, I honestly think there's more to the Sven-Dora dynamic than she wants to admit - and more than Sven probably realizes.
Of course there is, and that last clause is a double mouthful of truth. Bottom line, to me, is this: Sven was never taught how to get along with others. He has a lot of charm, and is rather affable, but the idea that he should at least consider other people's feelings has never really been taught to Sven; hence him being more worried about Dora 'killing him' than that, for her, he'd repeated history. Going to his sister and telling her like an adult what was happening might've done loads to stop Dora's meltdown, but instead Sven chose to hide.

Oh, I know Sven was going to lie to 'protect' Faye after the Riversmith incident, but I suspect that had at least as much to do with protecting himself from a scene.

I rather suspect the Bianchi parents* did Sven a horrible disservice, as do any parents who don't find time to teach their child consideration of others. Such children may be successful, but they've a dismal chance of actually being happy in the long run. Because sooner or later, someone is going to actually matter to them, and they're not going to know how to act to demonstrate that. Which is why Sven acted like a sulky child at the "Hannelore Snow Block Party." I actually give him credit for doing better later when he came to talk to Faye at CoD, but he should've done that much sooner—except it probably didn't occur to him, being a social cripple.

On the flipside, one of the reasons I think Dora is nice to people (and she is, when she's not letting her problem get the better of her) is that she knows what it's like to be on the hammer end of things, and, to her credit, doesn't want to see anyone else there. But she's walking wounded, with the sort of injury that perpetuates itself and grows. Dora needs some professional help to give her the tools she needs to heal that. It'll never be completely gone, most likely, but she can reduce the size—and I think Marten is one of the few people around understanding enough (not a wimp, and I don't think those who keep calling him that know how truly silly they are. Marten is a man, a better one than Steve, and Sven doesn't even come close, although Angus does) to help her through those times. But he's got to know what's going on, and it may be Dora doesn't really, herself. Her initial arguing with Pantless Faye shows that clearly.

On a lighter note, if they could laugh about this later, 'Pantsless' would be a funny nickname for Faye. Pantless Whitaker. Gotta love it.

*Incidentally, I know the 'fun' breed of parent like Mr. Bianchi, if not Mrs., rather well. They tend to want to be friends with their children instead of parental figures; this rarely works out well. By contrast, Veronica Reed, even though she was a porn star of sorts, seems to be parent first, then friend, probably more of the later since Marten's become an adult—see the difference between him and Sven?

Edit: Man, wouldja look at that wall?
« Last Edit: 03 Sep 2010, 21:36 by raoullefere »
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #423 on: 03 Sep 2010, 22:35 »

Elssa, at least, can be defended. We know she tried to exercise parental authority in the leather pants incident.

An older theory deserves to be dusted off at this point. Notice the common factor in Dora freakouts? They happen when Faye has positive boy-developments. Marten has gotten over Faye. Dora, perhaps, hasn't, and is displacing her jealousy.

Jeph said, in the "Fat Faye" thread, that Dora's attentions to Faye were serious.
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #424 on: 03 Sep 2010, 23:00 »

Oh man, never refer to a girls tits as "saggy". Worst insult (to physical appearance at least) ever. Even if he meant it as a compliment. Although don't see how that could be taken as complimentary.

I think your right, but as a natural C/D cup, I know what it is to have boobs quite the opposite of perky.  But, there aren't really any better words.  Going to a thesaurus gets droopy, floppy, and flabby.  I do rather like pendulous.
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #425 on: 04 Sep 2010, 00:32 »

Yeah, I sincerely doubt that where Sven's at counts as "obsessing".  He strikes me more as the kind of guy who covers the heavy topics with a joke as a defense thing.
Uh.

No, not really.

And thats not what going in the comic either.


Quote
 The fact that he felt genuinely shitty about how things turned out with Faye isn't something he's used to; so, when confronted with the mental image of Faye not wearing very much, he knee-jerks into Flippant Jerk mode and tosses off a joke completely irrelevant to the serious things Marten is saying to him. 
Except he's serious.


Quote
That stops him from thinking about a subject that's probably still a reasonably open wound for him.
Yeah, obviously he's quite immature about serious relationships, but thats a different issue altogether.


Quote
I imagine that once Marten gets genuinely annoyed, Sven will back down and take the conversation, and Marten's dillemma, seriously.
Thats not what I expect. I expect Sven being unable to help Marten.


Quote
 Either way, Jeph's too much of a storyteller to have a random meeting with Sven be completely spent on one joke.
Again, Sven ISNT JOKING. He's serious.
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Carpe Diem

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #426 on: 04 Sep 2010, 00:44 »

when confronted with the mental image of Faye not wearing very much, he knee-jerks into Flippant Jerk mode and tosses off a joke completely irrelevant to the serious things Marten is saying to him.  That stops him from thinking about a subject that's probably still a reasonably open wound for him.
I don't think it was a joke at all - he just stopped listening.  He heard "Faye" and "underwear," then basically just tuned out(having dropped into a patented Bianchi fugue-state) and waited for Marten to stop talking so he could ask his question.  No defense mechanism here, just 100% animal instinct.

I've had two serious relationships in my time.  The first, we'll call her Jane, cheated on me.  It was the first time I'd experienced that kind of betrayal, and it changed me.  I used to be completely trusting.  If she wanted a "girls' night out," I had no problem with it.  But that changed.  That ability to trust was forever damaged.

Thus, when I started seeing the second woman, we'll call her Doris, I couldn't help feeling an intense paranoid dread whenever she was away from me.  I knew it was irrational.  Doris wasn't Jane, there was no logical reason to expect Doris to betray me as Jane had done.  The heart, however, is an irrational organ.  No matter how much I knew I was being paranoid and jealous, I still felt the pain and desperation.  The difference was that I choked it down and kept it to myself.  That's what Dora has to learn to do.

Of course, Doris did eventually cheat on me too, going home with her ex after a "girls' night out," so maybe Dora has a leg to stand on...
I wouldn't say that Dora has a leg to stand on at all.  I've been cheated on twice, but those were just two individual circumstances.  I've also had an amazing relationship where she and I had 100% complete trust in one another.  Women can't be judged by the actions of others of their gender, just as men can't. 
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #427 on: 04 Sep 2010, 01:08 »

People don't consciously set out to judge others by the actions of their gender, but when you're someone who's been badly hurt by someone of that gender, and especially if it's happened more than once by different members of that gender, it take real mental effort for many people to take other members of that gender as individuals and not hold them "responsible" for the actions of the ones that hurt you.

In simpler terms, if, for example, you're a guy who's been cheated on more than once by women you've been in relationships with, it will probably take real mental effort (and maybe therapy) to avoid looking at future dates as possible cheaters. It gets worse if the guy starts doubting his ability to find and/or choose women who won't cheat. Such a guy may just choose to forgo relationships altogether. Sad, but probably better than subjecting future dates to unfounded paranoia and jealously.

Dora's problem is most likely that she needs to confront her issues and deal with them, probably in therapy as Faye has done. If she doesn't, she will end up chasing Marten away.
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 01:10 by themacnut »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #428 on: 04 Sep 2010, 01:44 »

Quote
I think Marten is one of the few people around understanding enough (not a wimp, and I don't think those who keep calling him that know how truly silly they are. Marten is a man, a better one than Steve, and Sven doesn't even come close, although Angus does)

Can I just say thank you for saying this?
I get so tired of people saying "grow a pair" and all of that nonesense when Martin is clearly not a wimp (and hell, even if he was, is he really any less of a man for it?).
There's nothing weak about taking a quieter approach and being patient with someone you love when they are imperfect and sometimes make you mad. There's nothing weak about walking away from an argument before things take a turn for the sort of language and actions that can't be undone.



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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #429 on: 04 Sep 2010, 02:54 »

*shrugs*

If you think that my view on the comic's wrong, that's fine.  But I stand by it.  All it takes is to actually look at the setup for this comic and then put it all into context.

Marten's walking around at night, very obviously angry and frustrated.  He, apparently by chance, bumps into Sven, who greets him.  He asks Marten how he is, either casually or because he can recognise that Marten is in a bad mood.  The conversation reaches the point where the two of them take a seat on a nearby park bench, because their chat has gone on long enough that they don't want to stand around talking.  Everything up until this point must have happened, whatever the specifics may be.
From here, either Marten or Sven steers the conversation around to how frustrated Marten is at Dora right now.  And at this point, Marten launches into a semi-rant explanation about how he feels Dora is being unreasonable toward him.  Again, not conjecture:  this is the comic as we see it.

Given Marten's mood, there is a zero percent chance that he would have kept talking to Sven this long, or opened up as much as he has, if Sven had been acting like an asshat for the entire conversation.  And the conversation absolutely must have been going on for a while to reach this point.

And it is at this moment that Sven chooses to completely ignore the point of what Marten's saying and discuss Faye's boobs.

Either Sven is joking, or even for him, this is an utterly new level of asshattery that's made far, far worse by the buildup to it.  He may be a douche, but this is beyond even him.

Therefore, I chose the only other possible option - he's making a joke.

Seriously, I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but I cannot think of another way to explain how this comic came to pass.  And as such I refuse to believe that Sven is serious.
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #430 on: 04 Sep 2010, 03:45 »

There is an alternative explanation, Tergon;

Marten's walking through the night, angry and frustrated (probably looking so pissed that any would-be muggers decide it's not worth the risk to mess with him  :lol:) . He wanders into the park, and for whatever reason (maybe tired from having done a lot of walking) sits down on the bench. Not long afterward, Sven also wanders into the park. Maybe he was also walking down the street, saw Marten in the park (assumes Marten's sitting near a park entrance) and curious as to what he's doing there at that time of night, strolls over and says "What's up?"

Marten, who's been sitting there fuming about Dora's behavior, getting more and more frustrated by the second, at this point can't help himself-at the first sign of someone he knows who appears to give two shits, he just does a complete verbal dump on Sven, ranting about his sister's behavior. Sven, not expecting this explosion of verbal diarrhea, is not sure how to respond to the torrent. So out pops the lame joke about Faye's tits (and yes, I also think he's joking, but I also think it's the response of someone who, like many guys, is not sure how to respond to another guy who's pouring his heart out, which is something not many guys do to other guys in the first place).
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 03:47 by themacnut »
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Tergon

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #431 on: 04 Sep 2010, 04:07 »

...I'll pay that.  Very good point.

I still stand by my belief that Sven is not serious, though.  And I have no doubt he will Serious Up in the next comic(s).
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #432 on: 04 Sep 2010, 04:10 »

As I see it, Sven probably asked Marten to tell him what was his problem, and did it in a sincere attempt to listen and be helpful. Then, somewhere along the line, Marten mentionned Faye (barely dressed Faye, at that), and Sven's brain drifted away from the matter at hand, to wander in Fayetasyland, leading to his last panel lines, that I don't think are meant as a joke on his part.
Note that Marten doesn't look at Sven until the last panel. Had he done so, he could have noticed Sven wasn't paying attention anymore.
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 04:14 by Schmorgluck »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #433 on: 04 Sep 2010, 04:55 »

...I'll pay that.  Very good point.

I still stand by my belief that Sven is not serious, though.  And I have no doubt he will Serious Up in the next comic(s).
I will tentatively buy Sven is not serious, but it's still about the creepiest response he could come up with at the moment. There are times for such, but, even if I buy your theory, this isn't one of them, and so far as I know, Sven isn't good enough friends with Marten (unlike, say, Steve) to make it even halfway amusing. Then again, I'm not sure Sven really knows any better. Wil seems to be one of his closest friends, and Wil's not really a person one can learn, for lack of a better word, 'manlaw' from interacting with him. Poetlaw, maybe. (Is there such a thing?)
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #434 on: 04 Sep 2010, 05:17 »

Poetlaw, maybe. (Is there such a thing?)
You definitely don't want to know.

And I plusone* you for the creepy part. Sven seems to be exceedingly obsessed. He used to be self-centered, now he seems to be Faye-centered, and it's scary, all things considered.

* Yay! I invented a verb. Assuming I'm the first to invent it, that is.
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 05:22 by Schmorgluck »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #435 on: 04 Sep 2010, 06:04 »

It is a poor joke, in poor taste, and not very effective.  If Sven really is joking.  I honestly can't tell. 

One of the biggest problems was that Marten asked, "What do you think?"

Then he found out. 

Damn, it's a holiday weekend.  We're going to be talking about this the whole time, aren't we? 

Guess I'll watch y'all hash it out until Monday. 
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 06:06 by Carl-E »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #436 on: 04 Sep 2010, 07:14 »

Damn, it's a holiday weekend.
Labor Day? So put your white shoes away until next year, m'kay?
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 08:17 by Akima »
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Tergon

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #437 on: 04 Sep 2010, 07:26 »

Ain't no holiday down here in the South.  Just a simple little day in my simple little country where I go to my simple little job in my simple little life.

Anyway.  I'm going back at the archives, and I have to ask - exactly how are people getting to the conclusion that Sven is obsessed with Faye?  I mean, yes, he's hung up on her a bit.  But, well, this is the last time he said anything to Faye.  And this is the time before that.  If you didn't click those, in the first link he says two words to Faye while having fun with Marigold's fear of him.  In the second, it's the Beer Sledding Party where he jams his foot in his mouth and then tries to apologise.  Now we see him again and he's making a statement (ignoring whether it's a joke or not for now) about the fact that Faye has rather nice bosoms.  I spend more time chasing after pictures of zany turtles on the internet than he does chasing after Faye, and no, I am not obsessed with zany turtles.

So have I somehow missed a massive chunk of the archives in which Sven stands in the street staring in Faye's bedroom window looking sad?  Maybe builds a shrine and effigy of her?  Sobs quietly to himself in his room about his breakup and calls her every five minutes?  Maybe does, oh, I don't know, anything at all that might reasonably be considered obsessive behaviour?  Or has he, in fact, simply shown to be a little fixated on the physical attractiveness of a girl he used to have casual sex with?

And yes, I am aware that I'm madly swinging the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks as I post this, but my question remains valid.  How the hell do we make the jump from "Sven kind of likes Faye" to "ZOMG OBSESSION!"
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #438 on: 04 Sep 2010, 07:47 »

You did miss this one.

Edit:  Also, I know everyone's kinda hung up on Sven Being an Asshole right now (c'mon, really, he's just being Sven), but I want to take advantage of this rare deviation from my lurking and say that I really hope this arc leads to Faye looking for a new job.
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 07:54 by Malsies »
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Tergon

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #439 on: 04 Sep 2010, 07:54 »

I did indeed.  I actually looked for that but found the Beer Sledding party first, and assumed I must have been remembering the order wrong.  Thank you for finding it!

Still... considering that he's basically telling Faye that he accepts he was a dick and wants to not be enemies any more, I'd just as cheerfully toss this comic on the "Not Obsessed" pile.  Especially considering his little self-depreciating smile and comment in his next appearance, three comics later.

Edit in response to Malsies' edit:
Interesting thought.  So after this drama Faye might play the, "I can't work for someone I have to also live with who is also my best female friend and dating my best male friend," card.  Which is a really inconveniently long-named card to play, but I actually do get it!  I guess the question becomes what Faye would do for work.  Maybe something with her artistic talents?  Or perhaps go back to college?
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 07:57 by Tergon »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #440 on: 04 Sep 2010, 07:59 »

Oooh!  Oooh!  I went back one page from one of Tergon's, and found an interesting take on Dora.  Apparantly, "crazy bitch mode" is not something she's unaware of - or at least, not something that hasn't been mentioned in the past.  

Probably several times.  

As for Tergon's question about how people know what's going on in Sven's mind (careful, it's a little dark in there, and there be plotholes)...

I think that, with his sudden reappearance in the bar, and his having undergone some clear personality changes, the assumption is that he's trying to be the man Faye said he could be.  So the further assumption must be that he's always thnking of her in some way.  That's a lot of assuming.  

But really, I tend to think most of the forum is projecting.  

The rest are just shippers.  

Edit: Tergon reposted and added more while I wrote, but I still agree - a farewell was implied, wth regret, not "I'm going to get her back!" 

[raises broom] I'm ready!  
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Tergon

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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #441 on: 04 Sep 2010, 08:03 »

*crosses his broom with Carl-E's in an awesome superhero pose*

We stand as one!
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #442 on: 04 Sep 2010, 10:38 »

But really, I tend to think most of the forum is projecting.  

Of course we are! That's the fun of a dramawebcomicforum!    And our own personal experiences of drama queens (& cheating SOs) deeply colors how we feel about these well-drawn (in both senses) characters and what they do to/with each other.  [Thank you, Captain Obvious]  (is that a trope?)

And I realize I'm no more consistent on this point than anyone else, but - this is canon, but NOT real life - "Sven's" apparently ignoble response to Marten's soul-searching is not what "Sven" would necessarily really say, it's The Punchline Of A Comic!  And done very well - remember humor is often tension release...  :laugh:  

I just think it's wrong to chastise/slam "Sven" for his part in the joke here.  

Quote from raoullefere: "...social cripple."    :?  Sven?  Huh...  I hadn't thought of him that way; he swims easily & fluently in the social streams, apparently gets along well with most people, and usually gets what he wants out of social interactions.  Compared to him, I'm a social cripple, but I see your point.
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 11:20 by tomart »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #443 on: 04 Sep 2010, 13:33 »

Quote from raoullefere: "...social cripple."    :?  Sven?  Huh...  I hadn't thought of him that way; he swims easily & fluently in the social streams, apparently gets along well with most people, and usually gets what he wants out of social interactions.  Compared to him, I'm a social cripple, but I see your point.

Yeah, it's an interesting use of the term, but I think the inability to form strong, lasting relationships (family doesn't count) really leaves Sven crippled in one form or another. 

Maybe not socially, but perhaps "relationship challenged" would work better? 

Of course, "asshole" works nearly as well...    :-D
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #444 on: 04 Sep 2010, 16:32 »

If you're missing one leg, you can still move about in many ways, and yet before PCdaze you'd be referred to as a 'cripple.' The parallel is exact. I think you guys are confusing that, to a degree, anyway, with being completely socially* dysfunctional. And forming a lasting relaiontio

And punchline or no, Tomart, I don't think Jeph just pulled that out of his ass. There are many, many lines, most of them much less creepy and obnoxious, that could have served the same purpose and gotten as big a laugh.

Example: "Sorry, I stopped paying attention after you told me Faye wasn't wearing pants." That could be Sven joking.

Edit: Social: adj of or relating to society or its organization. I think forming lasting relationships with a partner unrelated to you is a part of that. Certainly, like it or not, it influences your level of acceptance in the larger community, especially after reaching a certain age, although I grant our culture has moved that age up quite a bit. If it didn't, would same-sex be such a big deal to either side?
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2010, 18:11 by raoullefere »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #445 on: 04 Sep 2010, 19:15 »

Yeah, it's an interesting use of the term, but I think the inability to form strong, lasting relationships (family doesn't count) really leaves Sven crippled in one form or another. 

Oh family does indeed count. There are people who can't even get along with their families, whose siblings and even parents can't stand being in the same room with them and vice-versa. And it's not always because the family is nuts either. Half the time it's the person themselves that's a complete asshole. Sven may be romantic-relationship-challenged, but he still has friends and his family still likes him, most of the time.
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #446 on: 04 Sep 2010, 20:05 »

Friends? 

He has Wil, who may be more of a hanger-on.  Lydia is an intern (right below the level of an employee).  There are musicians that hang out with him.  And there's his hot lawyer.  We've really never seen much in the way of friends. 

And family doesn't count because no matter how impossible you are, you form a long lasting relationship with them. 

I never said it had to be a good relationship.  After all, they're the ones that know you best! 

Which brings us back to Sven's potential insights into Dora's state of mind.  Despite the initial lack of response, Sven may still be Marten's best bet in understanding what's going on under the purple. 
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #447 on: 05 Sep 2010, 00:34 »

Not 100% true Carl-E. There are a lot of people who cannot have relationships with their family due to abuse, or totally unhealthy relationships that are hurting one or more parties more than it's worth to keep contact. It's more common than you think.

Not really relevant to what you're talking about, but had to pipe up there.
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #448 on: 05 Sep 2010, 00:37 »

I agree with your last point, Carl, (and I love the turn of phrase), but it's going to be quite a mining trip, since Sven doesn't see anything he does as wrong, really; his primary concern tends to be what Dora will do to him later. That, I think, is what has our man Sven so bummed now—he's actually suffered consequences that had nothing to do with his murder at his sister's hands. (I admit she did try, but botched it). Anyone want to guess what you call someone who can't access consequences?* (starts with an 'r'). But Sven may be getting better, although his last two appearances aren't very promising.

Also, I think it says something about Dora that she is as troubled as she is about Sven's poaching and yet maintains what's essentially a pretty friendly relationship with him. She is not a bitch—she just becomes one from time to time. You already have my theory on that, and why the frequency has stepped up, so I won't be reapeatin' meself. I might bug ye. Wouldn't want to be buggin' ye. I'm not a bug…

*I can see some things coming, so let's ditch the politics before we start, okay? But I'll throw Bono to you— you can make all the fun of him you want.

Edit: I live Fenriswolf's point, so I'll give him credit, too. Because I know very well he lives for my approval.
« Last Edit: 05 Sep 2010, 00:41 by raoullefere »
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Re: WCDT 30 August- 3 September 2010
« Reply #449 on: 05 Sep 2010, 02:17 »

In simpler terms, if, for example, you're a guy who's been cheated on more than once by women you've been in relationships with, it will probably take real mental effort (and maybe therapy) to avoid looking at future dates as possible cheaters. It gets worse if the guy starts doubting his ability to find and/or choose women who won't cheat. Such a guy may just choose to forgo relationships altogether. Sad, but probably better than subjecting future dates to unfounded paranoia and jealously.

If I may quote myself:

Quote from: no one special
I've been cheated on twice, but those were just two individual circumstances.  I've also had an amazing relationship where she and I had 100% complete trust in one another.

That guy you're talkin' about?  I am that guy. 

But I still believe I can (and one day will) find someone who will be faithful to me, and I to her.  Now, maybe it's because I went from painful cheater to amazing woman to painful cheater.  Maybe if the painful cheaters had been consecutive, it'd be harder.  Which isn't to say that it was hard to get over - but I guess I just refuse to give in to that history.  I have met too many good people to believe that every woman is a cheater.  I'm not saying good people can't cheat (obviously, there are no guarantees in life), but it's important to have faith in people.

I think another thing that helps is to understand why they cheated.  With the first girlfriend, there were just problems all over the place - too many issues between her and I, issues that had no solution.  Control issues, intimacy issues, experience issues - the cheating was a manifestation of the many problems we had, and that was how it played out for her.  By no means am I excusing it, of course - we all can make choices in life, and she chose to do that, ripping out my heart in the process.  But what I'm saying is that things don't usually happen in a vacuum.  It's not always something you can control - sometimes it's issues that she had way before she met you, sometimes it's issues between the two people, and occasionally we may bring it on ourselves(though again, that other person always has a choice).  Anyway, sometimes being able to understand something can tell you more about it.  It can tell you more about the people you date, and why you date them, and maybe whether or not you should date those people.

It's important to learn from the things that happen to us, and to not let them control us.  Fear keeps us from living the lives that we deserve to lead.  If can learn from these things, maybe we can find the sort of person that we're supposed to be with, a person that will treat you the way you want to treat her - the way you both want to be treated. 

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Quote from: Kai
if I was making music I would want to be able to eat. If you download it, at least like, make me a fucking sandwich or send me some pop tarts or something.
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