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Chill And Understanding

0 (0%)

Faye Cliff Notes (and loading docks)

3 (5.9%)

The Angst Solstice

5 (9.8%)

"Are you gonna break up with me?"

2 (3.9%)

Something we gotta fix.

0 (0%)

Full Disclosure, Crazy Bitch and Sense of Timing

2 (3.9%)

"The first genuinely Nice Guy" she's been with

0 (0%)

"I love you." "I love you too."

10 (19.6%)

"LESS TALKING MORE HOT MAKE-UP SEX"

16 (31.4%)

Whole Social Circle imploding over no PANTS!

13 (25.5%)

Total Members Voted: 41

[Fenriswolf]

Really, if you got tongue-tied every time you were around a woman, whether or not you were trying/hoping to sleep with her, you couldn't function in society.  You'd be a mess.

Ah ha, my partner has a couple of employees who actually, yeah, get tongue-tied around any and all women. This includes on the phone. One of them is in his 60s, goes bright red and stammers when one of the women from another office calls - and accordingly, she calls him, because she gets what she wants. 

[tomart]

5. All the same she demanded that though it was not gonna be a relationship, he should not sleep with anyone else.

And yes, Faye did everything you said, but, you seem to have forgotten this, when Faye tries to move things in a different direction

She wasn't trying to move things in a different direction, she just wanted another bang, as shown when after her little spat, she called right back and said "ok."

"...and then this lovely philosophy,"      .... he's spelling it out accurately, what's your problem with that?

followed by this                                .... again, he's acknowledging the contradictory situation SHE created... why bash HIM for that?

[lunakitten]

No, she settled for a bang- she wanted to hang out and be comforted after a hard day.

[tomart]

No, she settled for a bang- she wanted to hang out and be comforted after a hard day.

And i daresay she got her comforting...           

[Akima]

I wouldn't treat a dog like that, and I detest dogs. (Sorry, Shelby.)

Well, I do declare! And you call yourself a Southerner, suh? (Typing that brought an image to mind of me in a Southern Belle outfit. I'd look very odd.)

I think that's really what's meant when they say a guy "can't talk to girls."  Really, if you got tongue-tied every time you were around a woman, whether or not you were trying/hoping to sleep with her, you couldn't function in society.  You'd be a mess.

From a female perspective, I'd say men who "can't talk to girls" simply can't communicate effectively with us, rather than just getting tongue-tied. The glib douche, with his patter of "zingers" and pick-up lines, is no more capable than the stammering dork. The (nowadays rare, but not yet extinct) fast-talking technical salesman who is too busy laying on the charm to listen to (never mind answer) my questions, is another example of a man who can't talk to women (or at least to me).

It's strange, but true—people often prefer the familiar, even if the alternative is actually more pleasant. The phrase 'better the devil you know' is more far-reaching than many suspect. Just my theory about Dora, but we shall see.

Raoullefere might dislike dogs, but he's no fool...

[lunakitten]

 
Nothing against a nice boink, but when you need a hug and a friend to talk to and cheering up? It's not remotely enough. It's sad that it was all he was able to offer her, and sadder that she thought it was all she deserved to have.

[tomart]

And then there are guys who have no more problem carrying a conversation with girls than with other guys, it's just that they don't have a mode for "conversation with someone I'm attracted to and I'd like to explore the possibilities with".

That's it!  I can function in all sorts of social situations, UNTIL I'm face to face with a woman I LIKE...  part of my brain freezes up.  

And I think that's why I'm defending Sven here - FAYE was the one who limited their relationship, trying to control it, and he went along, as I did with one woman, where the roles were reversed.  She kept it FwB, I realized I wanted more.  It was an emotional roller-coaster.

[Schmorgluck]

And then there are guys who have no more problem carrying a conversation with girls than with other guys, it's just that they don't have a mode for "conversation with someone I'm attracted to and I'd like to explore the possibilities with".

That's it!  I can function in all sorts of social situations, UNTIL I'm face to face with a woman I find desirable...  part of my brain freezes up.

Oh, I see. Well, in a way, that's what happens to me too, but most of the time it's the part of my brain that finds her desirable that freezes up, so I fall back to continuing the conversation in a perfectly ordinary way. Hell, I'm not even sure my attitude noticeably changes. It's kinda like I forbid myself to act on my attraction for fear of being obnoxious and annoy her, and waste an otherwise pleasant conversation.

[JackFaerie]

Sven, the only thing you did really wrong with Faye was sleeping with that GIna Riversmith chick, and YOU KNEW IT WAS WRONG AT THE TIME!

How would "Cliff Notes" have helped that?

Actually, I think what he did wrong was putting up with Faye's intense bullshit in the first place. I think as soon as she told him she wasn't going to consider a relationship with him, but expected exclusivity, he shoulda cut it off right there, because to me it is an INCREDIBLY out-of-line demand.

[Tergon]

I think it's pretty much what we'd expect of Sven at this point, though.  Whatever else can be said about his character, he's always been shown to care about his little sister - behind the jokes about how she'd kick his arse if she saw a need, it's pretty obvious that he does genuinely care about what she thinks.  Which follows, naturally, that he genuinely cares about her.  So if anything's going to cut through his suave-womanizer-bullshit, it's the thought of Dora hurting.  There's just that instinctive Big Brother reflex that I don't think even Sven is immune to.  His feelings toward Faye, whatever they may be, won't trump that.  Which is why I think he's being completely honest to Marten, who he respects as a decent guy for his sister.  Hell, he basically said as much in panel 2.

But for the same reason I can't see him giving Marten a big history on arseholes from Dora's life.  I think he'll basically give Marten the advice that's needed: that Dora, herself, needs to be able to tell Marten about what she's been through, and why that means she has so much trouble trusting him.  Part of it is her self-image, part of it is instinctive reaction to a guy she has feelings for, but all of it is coming from her, and that can't be solved by a third party filling in the blanks.  She has to be the one to talk Marten through this, if only so that they can come to the conclusion that he's just not That Guy.

As for Sven?  I wholeheartedly endorse him giving Marten a nudge in the right direction.  It's such a Big-Brotherly thing to do in order to help Dora.  But at the same time I don't see him wanting to get any more involved than that, or telling Marten too much.  I definitely don't see him wanting Dora to know that he's helping.  Like he said himself, "Gotta keep up the act."
I think this is one of Sven's most important appearances since he and Faye had their falling out.  It makes him a real person again, it's so believable for what siblings who care about each other would do, and yet it's perfectly in character for what we've seen - he DOES care about Dora, he just doesn't want to admit it to anyone.  I'm really enjoying where it's gone for him.

[Near Lurker]

From a female perspective, I'd say men who "can't talk to girls" simply can't communicate effectively with us, rather than just getting tongue-tied. The glib douche, with his patter of "zingers" and pick-up lines, is no more capable than the stammering dork. The (nowadays rare, but not yet extinct) fast-talking technical salesman who is too busy laying on the charm to listen to (never mind answer) my questions, is another example of a man who can't talk to women (or at least to me).

Did it occur to you at all that the face a man presents to you while he's trying to pick you up might only be a facet of his personality?  Or do you see him as an uncomplicated Martian, existing only to try and fail to fuck you and then go off and get himself killed in some manly contest of strength?

[Carl-E]

I think it's pretty clear that, if that's he facet of his personality that a man tries to present to a woman he's interested in, then the rest can't be much better. 

The exception is the stammering dork, for whom nothing is being presented.  Whatever else there is, it has to be better! 

Well, at least one would hope so. 

[Akima]

Did it occur to you at all that the face a man presents to you while he's trying to pick you up might only be a facet of his personality?  Or do you see him as an uncomplicated Martian, existing only to try and fail to fuck you and then go off and get himself killed in some manly contest of strength?

I see what he chooses to present to me. I see what he chooses to present on the basis of what he believes will impress me. Let us imagine that the pick-up artist is a complex, multi-faceted individual who sings madrigals in his spare time, befriends stray cats, and is kind to his Mum, but chooses to hide that complexity behind his douchebag front. That he does so suggests that he believes the douchebag will appeal to me more than his real self, revealing both a lack of confidence in himself, and a profound contempt for me. Neither is attractive. At all.

[IanClark]

I hope Jeph doesn't go too far with this "It's all an act" thing. It risks cheapening the integrity of his characters. I'm hoping the truth is something a little less dire than "So hey... it turns out she's actually been acting the whole time and her entire existence has been a lie."

I think it's as someone mentioned before, and it's not really all an act, just the parts where she pretends not to be a jealous mess specifically as it pertains to being in a relationship. Which would actually only amount to about two or three times where she's been acting, since she doesn't usually pretend she's not paranoid.

[pwhodges]

Marten must understand that Dora's problem is not something you just fix.  My first wife dated an arsehole (the knock her up, pretend interest, leave the country kind), and this was still affecting our relationship 15 years and more later.

[no one special]

Then there was this comic...

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1307

So, it's not like Sven's not a douchebag. 


But yes, yes, I agree, takes two to tango, blah blah blah.

[J]

Did it occur to you at all that the face a man presents to you while he's trying to pick you up might only be a facet of his personality?  Or do you see him as an uncomplicated Martian, existing only to try and fail to fuck you and then go off and get himself killed in some manly contest of strength?

I see what he chooses to present to me. I see what he chooses to present on the basis of what he believes will impress me. Let us imagine that the pick-up artist is a complex, multi-faceted individual who sings madrigals in his spare time, befriends stray cats, and is kind to his Mum, but chooses to hide that complexity behind his douchebag front. That he does so suggests that he believes the douchebag will appeal to me more than his real self, revealing both a lack of confidence in himself, and a profound contempt for me. Neither is attractive. At all.

that seems rather simplistic and uncharitable. first of all, 'douchebag' is a subjective assessment, and our straw-man would probably disagree that it describes his approach, as might some hypothetical straw-women. second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being. the fact is that unless you actually know them, you have no way of knowing why they are using the 'douchebag' approach. though if i might join you in speculation: presumably the fact that he is doing so implies that he thinks it will work, which would suggest that it either has in the past, or that he is operating from bad information. neither of which indicates 'contempt' for you, or a lack of confidence.

third: the fact is that we all adapt and moderate our behavior based on what we believe will be most appropriate/effective in a given context. you don't behave the same way on a date as you do at a job interview, nor do you usually speak to your coworkers the same way as your friends. this is how humans function as social animals. how a man approaches a woman is no diffrent.

[raoullefere]

I wouldn't treat a dog like that, and I detest dogs. (Sorry, Shelby.)

Well, I do declare! And you call yourself a Southerner, suh? (Typing that brought an image to mind of me in a Southern Belle outfit. I'd look very odd.)

To be honest, my body hates dogs with an intensity that's beyond holy, and makes me suffer if I allow them near me. Add to that the idiocy of several relatives (a few decades seems to me enough time to figure a few things out), together with the vapidity with which many people treat their dogs and the resulting disasters, and I wind up not caring much for them at all.

I'm sure you'd look wonderful in a hoop skirt. Not that I'm implying anything about your appearance one way or the other, but, odd as it may seem, very few ladies don't. I think the dress takes over. As much trouble as it looks like, it ought to.

Nothing against a nice boink, but when you need a hug and a friend to talk to and cheering up? It's not remotely enough. It's sad that it was all he was able to offer her, and sadder that she thought it was all she deserved to have.

Exactly. Although I wonder if it was able, or willing? I honestly don't know. Maybe we'll find out.

[westrim]

*glances around, glances at last thread* Wow, I missed a lot. 'scuse me if I don't chew through it all.

Sven sure is doing well. He seems to have evened out quite nicely psychologically.

[Akima]

second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being.

Er... Speculate is all one can ever do about other people's internal motivations, no matter how well one thinks one knows them. Only their behaviour is observable.

the fact is that we all adapt and moderate our behavior based on what we believe will be most appropriate/effective in a given context. you don't behave the same way on a date as you do at a job interview, nor do you usually speak to your coworkers the same way as your friends. this is how humans function as social animals. how a man approaches a woman is no diffrent.

Granted, but the key words are "most appropriate/effective". If a man approaches me in a manner I find repellent, how is his approach effective? In choosing it, how has he demonstrated the ability to communicate with me?

[Is it cold in here?]

"Angst-solstice" has potential as a band name.

[Blackjoker]

Comic comment: Angst Solstice would be a great emo band name.

Edit: GAH beaten to it by a few seconds, damn

[akronnick]

"Angst-solstice" has potential as a band name.

Comic comment: Angst Solstice would be a great emo band name.

Edit: GAH beaten to it by a few seconds, damn

Nah, too hard to pronounce; too many 's'-'st'-'sts' combos.

[raoullefere]

"Faye broke Sven." I don't know why, but now I'm thinking of The World According to Garp (the book), when Garp bit the dog. In any case, maybe reassembled Sven will be an improvement.

But he probably can't run 60 miles per hour now, or get cool sound effects to play when he jumps, runs, or hits things.

[Tergon]

At the Festival of the Angst Solstice, moody villiagers stand around a black maypole, cross their arms, and nod sullenly to music played on Pan-Pipes.  They hang garlands of leaves that died last year because nobody cared for the trees in the orchard.  They drink mulled wine, but it must be from a chipped coffee mug, and while muttering about how bitter it is.  At the end, they burn an effigy of man and woman, but it doesn't look like anyone because nobody gets the work of the artist who made the effigies.  At the end of the night you go home with the nearest member of the opposite sex and fornicate without making eye contact.

It is pretty much the worst festival ever.

[fifthfiend]

Granted, but the key words are "most appropriate/effective". If a man approaches me in a manner I find repellent, how is his approach effective? In choosing it, how has he demonstrated the ability to communicate with me?

Well he's communicated that he's a douchebag.

Many douchey people seem to successfully get together with each other, this seems like it'd be an important part of doing that.

[Arancaytar]

It seems almost inevitable that Marten will run into someone else tomorrow, particularly after his "angst solstice" line.

But who will it be? Steve? Marigold? Cosette? Hanners?

[Kugai]

Angst Solstice?

Once in a blue Moon?   

[J]

second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being.

Er... Speculate is all one can ever do about other people's internal motivations, no matter how well one thinks one knows them. Only their behaviour is observable.

true, but what i was trying to point out there is that you appear to be holding your own speculation (based off of very little information) against them. this seems unfair to me.

the fact is that we all adapt and moderate our behavior based on what we believe will be most appropriate/effective in a given context. you don't behave the same way on a date as you do at a job interview, nor do you usually speak to your coworkers the same way as your friends. this is how humans function as social animals. how a man approaches a woman is no diffrent.

Granted, but the key words are "most appropriate/effective". If a man approaches me in a manner I find repellent, how is his approach effective? In choosing it, how has he demonstrated the ability to communicate with me?

actually, the key word there is believe. if you find his approach repellent, then it was not appropriate or effective, nor does it demonstrate an ability to communicate. therefor, he has failed in his objective because he miscalculated his strategy. essentially, he made a mistake, this does not make him a bad person.

[brew]

I bet Dora followed Marten and heard him say he loves Faye and will freak out about it.

[Graphite]

second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being.

Er... Speculate is all one can ever do about other people's internal motivations, no matter how well one thinks one knows them. Only their behaviour is observable.

true, but what i was trying to point out there is that you appear to be holding your own speculation (based off of very little information) against them. this seems unfair to me.

But that's essentially what a guy who presents a 'douchebag' front to you when trying to pick you up would like you to do; he's chosen that front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey. If it's an act designed to impress you, and he's not 14, he may be acting based on faulty information about how 'girls like this', but in that case, it seems fair to judge him based on the fact that he has incredibly poor judgment and could genuinely bring himself to believe that girls would enjoy hanging out with arseholes.

[Carl-E]

I bet Dora followed Marten and heard him say he loves Faye and will freak out about it.

She won't need to have done that in order to freak out. 

It's already happening, after the "readjustment" Faye gave her. 

(emotional chiropracty, anyone?)

[akronnick]

But that's essentially what a guy who presents a 'douchebag' front to you when trying to pick you up would like you to do; he's chosen that front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey. If it's an act designed to impress you, and he's not 14, he may be acting based on faulty information about how 'girls like this', but in that case, it seems fair to judge him based on the fact that he has incredibly poor judgment and could genuinely bring himself to believe that girls would enjoy hanging out with arseholes.

If it walks like a douche...

[Tergon]

I'd just like to point out that anyone who thinks that acting like a douchebag will get you girls is saying that this man is correct.



His name is Mystery.  He believes that he can attract ladies by acting like a peacock.  He does not believe that "negative attention" is a thing which is real.  And anyone who supports acting like a douchebag is saying, in direct terms, that they feel this man is intelligent and his advice is worth taking.

Yeah.

[Switchblade]

Give us some credit, we're allowed to partially agree with a statement. That guy may be a colossal prick, but he is at least partly right. You can attract some ladies that way. Not all, because different women are going to have different reactions, ranging between "OMG WANT" and "That man is a flaming assbag and I want nothing to do with him." but he's at least right about the peacock thing being good for picking up those ladies who are attracted to jerks who act like peacocks.

Just like acting all pathetic, pale and nerdy is good for picking up ladies who like that. Or being an arrogant rap-star wanker with his pants slung so low that the ass is scraping the street. Or being a drug-fuelled rock star, a successful executive, or a manly farmhand type. Different people are attracted to different things, and I'm sure his jerk act DOES get him some action. So, he's not wrong as such. he's just not right all of the time either.

He is, however, completely wrong about there being no such thing as negative attention.

[Tergon]

But Switchblade.  His name is Mystery.
He chose that name for himself.

HE VOLUNTARILY CALLS HIMSELF MYSTERY.  AND HE MAKES HIS FRIENDS CALL HIM THAT.

[Graphite]

Oh god, how did we get to pick-up artists?

I have seen/participated in too many internet debates with/about pickup artists. It is kind of my specialty.

[squishything]

Ok, i've done a little forum-chewing, but forgive me if I'm about to repeat something already said.

Really interesting points have been made about Sven's development as a character, Dora's history, and even situational communication practices. But what I want to say is: Why did Marten have to wear clothing that covers up the belt? Why?

[akronnick]

Because no matter what the circumstances, no matter how cool, no matter what, there's no way in hell a dude can live down being seen in public wearing a Hello Kitty belt buckle.





And there are absolutely no circumstances where Marten Reed will be seen in public sans hoodie!

[Random832]

It seems entirely in character that Sven wanted the CliffsNotes, instead of reading the book. Just call him short-cut boy!

Well, "reading the book" in this analogy is "learning things the hard way, causing both himself and Faye to get hurt in the process" [and not incidentally, what _did_ happen], so it's debatable that this is a bad thing to want.

[Heranje]

But that's essentially what a guy who presents a 'douchebag' front to you when trying to pick you up would like you to do; he's chosen that front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey. If it's an act designed to impress you, and he's not 14, he may be acting based on faulty information about how 'girls like this', but in that case, it seems fair to judge him based on the fact that he has incredibly poor judgment and could genuinely bring himself to believe that girls would enjoy hanging out with arseholes.

If it walks like a douche...

Also, if one's reaction when they meet someone who appears to be a two-dimensional douche is to think "this might actually be a very complex and interesting person" and attempt to dig for that complex person, they're going to spend a lot of time talking to two-dimensional douches for every genuinely interesting person they meet.

[someone1074]

I'd just like to point out that anyone who thinks that acting like a douchebag will get you girls is saying that this man is correct.

His name is Mystery.  He believes that he can attract ladies by acting like a peacock.  He does not believe that "negative attention" is a thing which is real.  And anyone who supports acting like a douchebag is saying, in direct terms, that they feel this man is intelligent and his advice is worth taking.

Yeah.

...but it does work, he is intelligent, and if that's what you want to do, his advice is probably worth taking.

I mean I'd never use it (partially out of a lack of the self-confidence necessary to put on the front, but more out of respect for any woman I'd have to use it on), but it's difficult to critique its effectiveness when it's a pretty proven system. I mean the most generally romantically successful men and women utilize those techniques on their own during social outings. He may be an asshole, but it's hard to argue with the reality of it all. Men and women both tend to appreciate assertive, confident and entertaining qualities in their partners. Pick-up artists just attempt to exhibit all of these attractive qualities to an extreme.

Of course no one needs to use the system to find romance and there are plenty of outliers (men and women who exhibit none of these characteristics but for whatever reason have no trouble finding partners), but they are far from the norm.

[Carl-E]

He is, however, completely wrong about there being no such thing as negative attention.

He's also very wrong about that hat.  

OK, I'm assuming it's a hat.  

OK, I'm really hoping it's a hat, and not his hair.  

Some people, usually at an immature stage of adult development, will adopt a "persona", one they believe will be attractive.  They may have hit on this persona themselves, but usually they observe it from others.  That persona soon begins to color their personality; wear the mask for long, and you fill out the mask...  this leads to that lament of "I don't know where X begins and Y leaves off".  The lines can get blurred, but it's a choice to continue.  The persona can be dumped (and usually is, if it doesn't work), or the person may outgrow it.  

Then again, they may never outgrow it.  Especially if it works the way they hope!  

So in a lot of respects, douchey is as douchey does.  If there's anything else under there, it's being hidden by choice!  

[Akima]

true, but what i was trying to point out there is that you appear to be holding your own speculation (based off of very little information) against them. this seems unfair to me.

I don't think it is unfair to judge people by their actions, or to make deductions about their likely motives based on their actions. Indeed, rather than unfair, I would call it unavoidable. Life is live drama, with no retakes for flubbed lines.

if you find his approach repellent, then it was not appropriate or effective, nor does it demonstrate an ability to communicate. therefor, he has failed in his objective because he miscalculated his strategy. essentially, he made a mistake, this does not make him a bad person.

I don't believe it is possible to separate the action from the actor. A person who behaves in an unpleasant manner is unpleasant. Calling an action a "mistake" does not change it, or mitigate its consequences one iota. We are what we do.*

*Interestingly Sven might be coming to this very conclusion, judging from todays strip. Unless it's the Law Of Conservation Of Angst. Faye transferred her angst to Dora; now Marten has transferred his angst to Sven. Angst Solstice is an anagram of "lactose stings"; a coded reference to Angus?

[Tergon]

Yes that is all well and good but you are not getting it.

This man.  The man in that picture, the man we are talking about.

One day he woke up, and thought, "I want everyone to start calling me 'Mystery'.  That sounds cool!"
And then he told everyone to call him that.

He actually makes his friends call him Mystery.

There is nothing he can say, in any context, that makes up for that.

[someone1074]

Ah, that's a fair point. I think it's probably worse that people tend to like the name, however. They say it makes him intriguing... >_>

And yeah, that's his signature black feather top hat.

[pwhodges]

He's getting talked about - I imagine he sees that as a win.  What we actually think  is way down the list of considerations.

[Karilyn]

He's chosen the 'douchebag' front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent a part of the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey.

Yeah.  But then you'd have to become a lesbian.

[Tergon]

He's chosen the 'douchebag' front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent a part of the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey.

Yeah.  But then you'd have to become a lesbian.

This implies that there is no such thing as a Lady Douchebag.  And I can say without the slightest hesitation, in all fairness to both genders, that these do exist.

[Graphite]

Or at least it implies that there are no male non-douchebags. To this I say, boo and false!