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He's a guy. Because he can.

12 (33.3%)

It's easier than developing the rest of himself.

14 (38.9%)

He drifted into it because of social expectations.

3 (8.3%)

He's a misogynist prick.

0 (0%)

He's kept doing it because everyone expects it of him.

6 (16.7%)

Nigh to nitrogen nightbird.

1 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 31

[Is it cold in here?]

In Sven's article on the wiki, Peterhuppertz sets forth the idea (my paraphrase, errors are my fault) that Sven is aimless, found himself in a society with media pressure to be sexually successful while high school girls were throwing themselves at him, and continued to be a player because it was easier to do what everyone expected of him than to take initiative and push himself to do something different.

This is a fascinating and provocative idea, and seems to have good arguments both for and against it.

Hannelore says he's a nice guy at heart. Hannelore is out of touch in many ways, but can anyone think of a case where she's been wrong about people? She seems to have a lot of insight into personalities, starting with her first appearance.

On the other hand, two-timing Genevieve was just plain a lack of character. Even if people expect that sort of thing from you, going along with that expectation is spinelessness in addition to hurting your girlfriend.

In 1486 he implies that Faye was the first woman he had developed feelings and a conscience about. At age 27 that's pretty bad.

[Carl-E]

Hannelore says he's a nice guy at heart. Hannelore is out of touch in many ways, but can anyone think of a case where she's been wrong about people? She seems to have a lot of insight into personalities, starting with her first appearance.

She's a savant that way.  

On the other hand, two-timing Genevieve was just plain a lack of character. Even if people expect that sort of thing from you, going along with that expectation is spinelessness in addition to hurting your girlfriend.

Old habits are very  hard to break.  Even when you know you should...

In 1486 he implies that Faye was the first woman he had developed feelings and a conscience about. At age 27 that's pretty bad.

Some people never do.  I've known several such assholes jerkwads guys.  

[tomart]

Yes, i think he's a slut, like Raven, and millions of RL people.  And it's ok.  But i should define the word, as i use it: Accepting and enjoying one's sexuality.

Remember the Beatles song: "Why Don't We Do It In The Road"

McCartney wrote the song after seeing two monkeys copulating in the street while on retreat in Rishikesh, India with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He marvelled in the simplicity of this natural scenario when compared to the emotional turmoil of human relationships. He later said:

"A male [monkey] just hopped on the back of this female and gave her one, as they say in the vernacular. Within two or three seconds he hopped off again and looked around as if to say, ‘It wasn't me,’ and she looked around as if there'd been some mild disturbance ... And I thought ... that's how simple the act of procreation is ... We have horrendous problems with it, and yet animals don't. "

http://beatlesfanbr.posterous.com/?tag=johnlennon

[TheReaper]

That's an excellent question. I wonder if his behavior on the sort-of-date is extra gentlemanly because he's still miserable over Faye, or if he's putting on a nice guy act to sort of worm his way back into everyone's good graces, or if he's honestly just not that awful at heart, per Hanner's statement.

Not enough information to decide. Maybe if we follow his perspective post-date we'll get something.

Yes, i think he's a slut, like Raven, like me, and like millions of regular people.  And IT's OK!

I want to say something dicktastic, like "If you need to brag about how you're SO SEXUALLY ACTIVE on the internet, [insert insulting stereotype about nerds here]," but I know that's ultimately fallacious reasoning.

Also, dicktastic, which I might have mentioned.

[Kugai]

Sven is Sven, that's all there is to it.

And really, would we want him any other way?

[snubnose]

I'm always oddly fascinated by the long texts people are able to write about Sven.

[Carl-E]

The sign of a good well-written character is the amount of analysis that can be done to it.  The walls o' text just indicate that Sven is, like a lot of real people, rather complex! 

[Orbert]

Sven is the kind of guy that others guys really want to hate, but can't because he's such a cool guy, and he can't help it if women rip their clothes off at the very sight of him.  Since he's probably had this condition for a long time, he's never had to develop properly as a person.  He was getting laid all the time, and since that's all you really want when you're younger, there was no real need to develop social skills or emotional maturity.  Inside, there could have been a real jerk or a pretty nice guy or anything in between, but it didn't much matter.

So he managed to make it to his late 20's without developing emotionally, just because it never really came up.  Faye caught him by surprise.  He actually likes her as a person as well as a phree phuck, and it's hit him as hard as your first crush in junior high.  And while he's just as confused by it, he's managing to deal with it a little better than a teenager would simply because he is older, smarter, and somewhat more mature in other ways.

He's a slut at heart, but it's not his fault.

[Is it cold in here?]

> On the other hand, two-timing Genevieve was just plain a lack of character. Even if people expect that sort of thing from you, going along with that expectation is spinelessness in addition to hurting your girlfriend.

OF COURSE he's spineless. He may never have been stimulated to develop a spine.

He may just be trying very hard to do that now. More later.

ps: I cannot react on the forum, as much as I wish I could - the registration mechanism doesn't work.


... aaaand I'm back.

I posed that, of course, Sven is spineless.

Let's keep in mind that, while we have a fairly good idea about Marten's and Faye's upbringing, we know less of Sven's formative years than we do about Hannelore's.

What we do know is that he's been raised by parents who were firmly stuck in the '60's/'70's, and that everything he wanted, or thought he wanted, came to him naturally, without him having to make an effort. Straight A's, attention, popularity, and later, money.

We also know that he's consciously not proud of his accomplishments. He considers himself a shallow womanizer, and he considers his music to be utter trite.

And we also kow that, WITHIN his social circle, he has always behaved responsibly and in a considerate manner. He has never even so much as made a pass at ANY of Dora's friends. He obviously cares for Dora, he tries to actually be friends with Faye (not the easiest person to be friends with), and the one time he sleeps with someone from that social circle, it is because she throws herself at him.

And when he screws that up (it would've been screwed up one way or another), it is because Gina throws herself at him. He did, apparently, not intend to do that. But that is where his spinelessness overtook him.

So, yes, he's spineless, there is no arguing that.
But he's also a nice guy. He's evidently smart and socially conscious enough to not like himself very well, and that may well be THE ROOT OF HIS PROBLEM.
It may take a Hanners to at least make him dimly aware that he might be wrong about himself. If that turns out to be the case, we can chalk it up as another of Hannelore's achievements.

[tomart]

Sven is the kind of guy that others guys really want to hate, but can't because he's such a cool guy, and he can't help it if women rip their clothes off at the very sight of him.  
He's a slut at heart, but it's not his fault.

I hated (envied) him for a long time, until Faye started defining their relationship in some confusing ways (like someone did with me once) and then played the whole CHEATED ON ME card, with hordes of female voices chiming in Automatic Support, when his "crime" (it seemed to me) was not resisting Gina Riversmith's advances.  

Geez, what an awful fucking crime.   [Did Faye automatically OWN him, just because they did it?]


Also: sorry to be misunderstood; not an active slut, just have the attitude set.   Apologies for indiscretions.

[Carl-E]

From Wikipedia:

The accepted denotative meaning is a sexually promiscuous woman[4] or "a woman of a low or loose character; a bold or impudent girl; a hussy, jade."[5] These definitions identify a slut as a person of low character — a person who lacks the ability or chooses not to exercise a power of discernment to order their affairs, such as a cad, rake, or womanizer. The adjective "slutty" carries a similar connotation but can be applied both to people and to clothing and accessories, such as Halloween costumes.[6]

So yes, especially the bolded part.  Sven is a slut. 

But he's getting better, or at least making the effort. 

Now, about the whole Gina Riversmith incident... Sven found that his inaction  (not saying "no") had consequences.  I think that's prompted an attempt at some level of control on his part.  And I think tha's succeeding. 

Faye stuck by her guns, and ended it. 

What could have been good for both of them (if they'd somehow managed to make such a wobbly structure work) fell apart... and was ultimately better for both of them.  Faye got a start on coming out of her well of sorrows, and now with Angus has a chance to climb all the way up to something resembling happiness.  Sven has definitely grown, and may even effect enough change that other people notice.  Well, they've noticed, I guess - maybe they'll start believing that he's changed, too. 

But it's harder to change other people than it is to change yourself! 

And now that I've been talking about changing people, all I can see is the whole cast wandering around in diapers. 

...and on that mental image, I take my leave! 

[peterh]

So yes, especially the bolded part.  Sven is a slut. 

My point was (yes, indeed, I am the person whose quotes IsItColdInHere stuck on the wall here...) that the slutty characterisation describes a property of the Sven object, it does not describe the entire person.

Sven, like anyone of the main cast in QC, has many layers. I mean, jeez, Dora can be *extremely* bitchy, but she's not a bitch. Marten can be easily pushed over at (many) times, but he's got a resolve of tempered steel when necessary.

I argued that Sven was spineless - I really, really believe he is. To me, it seems as if he is also only dimly aware of what it is that makes him miss Faye... he keeps projecting it on her bottom and her bosoms. Maybe he's still hiding for his real issues.

But from the beginning of the pretend-date, I was fairly sure that he would manage his best to pull it off. He hasn't disappointed.

And Hanners is indeed very very very good in seeing through people. So yes, I think he (Sven) is a nice guy.

[raoullefere]

Let's keep in mind that, while we have a fairly good idea about Marten's and Faye's upbringing, we know less of Sven's formative years than we do about Hannelore's.

What we do know is that he's been raised by parents who were firmly stuck in the '60's/'70's, and that everything he wanted, or thought he wanted, came to him naturally, without him having to make an effort. Straight A's, attention, popularity, and later, money.

We also know they never called him on poaching Dora's friends—Sven confirmed that he did this. Whether they were unaware (not good to now know what happens in your own house) were too stoned to know or simply didn;t give a crap isn't clear.

And we also know that, WITHIN his social circle, he has always behaved responsibly and in a considerate manner. He has never even so much as made a pass at ANY of Dora's friends.

Now, not Then. Furthermore, this is done because he's under constant threat from Dora, not from any sense of responsibility. And before anyone clains he'd just putting on an act, Sven sure as hell isn't after he sleeps with Faye. If he'd had the balls to go to Dora and tell her what'd happened in the first place, much of the resulting mess, including the relationship being no more than sex, might've been avoided.

So, yes, he's spineless, there is no arguing that.

No. But he's also lazy. That's his single worst quality. If Sven would exert himself, he could overcome most of his faults. But it's too much trouble.

<Sigh> I've posted enough about Sven to write a novella, and I don't feel like adding another page to it now. Yes, he's not evil incarnate (that would be Meena  ), but he also swings both ways: he's apparently something of a predator as well as a slut. More apt description: Like most predators, he'd content to let his prey come to him or even scavenge, but as he told Hanners, Sven also has a stalking technique if he needs to exert himself to 'fill the larder.'

[peterh]

We also know they never called him on poaching Dora's friends—Sven confirmed that he did this. Whether they were unaware (not good to now know what happens in your own house) were too stoned to know or simply didn;t give a crap isn't clear.

Agreed. That will not have helped him much in growing that spine.

Now, not Then. Furthermore, this is done because he's under constant threat from Dora, not from any sense of responsibility. And before anyone clains he'd just putting on an act, Sven sure as hell isn't after he sleeps with Faye. If he'd had the balls to go to Dora and tell her what'd happened in the first place, much of the resulting mess, including the relationship being no more than sex, might've been avoided.

Point.

So, yes, he's spineless, there is no arguing that.

No. But he's also lazy. That's his single worst quality. If Sven would exert himself, he could overcome most of his faults. But it's too much trouble.
[/quote]
Another good point. But I think he needs proper motivation. That has to come from within. When he's mustered that, and starts to actually give it a try, he needs some encouragement. Hanners is better at that than Dora. That doesn't mean it's Dopra's fault... but it is Hannelore's accomplishment.

I think we don't disagree on most points... but we may disagree on one point: you dislike him, I don't.

And that is why QC is a good comic.

[raoullefere]

As long as we're talking of Hannelore encouraging him and not us. I'm not a fictional character <looks around> at least I hope I'm not. (If I am, my writer better hope I never find a way to get at him.)

I actually liked Sven when he was first introduced, and thought he was going to be good for Faye (which he was, but in a kind of fires from hell way I wouldn't wish on anyone that's already been through as much as Faye has*). I can trace my dislike of Sven to three comics (which I'm not going to link at the moment):
First, when Faye asks for a date and he shuts it down
Second, after he has sex with Riversmith and, instead of facing up to Faye, just as with Dora, he tries to hide it. (Thanks, Lydia)
Third, when he gets angry at Faye at Hanner's Snow Block Party.

And, although, as I said, I wouldn't wish it on anyone**, I suspect it's going to take a little flame to truly change his ways. Which, by my estimate, will happen only when he makes peace with Dora, which will involve actually apologizing instead of thinking pretend-dates will do the trick. As opposed, of course, to preening his feather about how good a lay one of her friends, former by then, was.

* No, I don't excuse Faye from all her behaviors due to 'issues,' but this was a little much. Although I've complained during the process, it's actually pretty impressive she's picked herself back up. Some credit to Angus, a person who, whatever his faults, is responsible and does take his screw-ups seriously. If you think about it, Jeph put him through the same tests he did Sven, only both at the same time. (listens for the crash as thread derails from the Legion of Angus detractors boarding all at the same time).

**this is supposing the Bianchi parents really are irresponsible wretches.

[Carl-E]

[stands with Rauollefere, raising the UBMEOD to fend off the impending derailment]

Where are they all?

I have to agree with those three incidents.  They do point up a lot of Sven's weaknesses and faults. 

They're also all things I've done myself, to some extent.  Nothing like Sven, but cheating about something, lying to others (and myself) and commiting offensive strikes when upset are pretty universal. 

And to top it off, I think Dora could use a reconciliation with him - it may help with some of her  issues.  Coming to terms with how badly he  treated her may shed some light on her other relationship insecurities...

[raoullefere]

Ye Worde about Dora. And if, perchance, she's exaggerated Sven's activities (I really don't think she has, but you never know), that, too, would be helpful for Dora in the long run.

[Is it cold in here?]

There's been foreshadowing: Dora has talked about getting therapy, and of all the things it might cover she specifically mentioned relations with her brother.

[peterh]

Oh, but I think anyone will agree that Sven piles fault upon weakness upon fault. And yes, I was rather pissed at any of the incidents Raoul mentions... especially the first, that was just lame.

In other news, I *know* (firsthand) that it helps a huge deal if you understand WHY someone's been treating you like shit during your formative years - if you actually understand the processes that led to this behaviour. That understanding brings you a great deal further than any apology, even if it's a sincere one. "What exactly was it that led to him treating my like crap?" If you understand that, then you also understand that it wasn't you.

The apology is instrumental in case of a reconciliation, but the understanding comes first. Has to come first.

Sven can only help her with that if he would understand, or even try to understand, it himself.
That migth be an interesting process for the both of them. But Dora has a head start: motivatiion. She WANTS to fix it already. Sven may only just be making the first steps of discovering that.

[jwhouk]

People can talk about going into therapy all they want. Until they actually get help, it's about as useless as... well, those things that Carl and Raoul are holding.