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[Trynant]

I may think that our view of video games is flawed, insofar as judging a game as art is concerned, but I understand that no one wants to buy a game with a flawed mechanic just as a show of supporting experimentalism.

I think that gaming/gamers/games need to take a hint from movies and spend more money on experiments as a show of good faith to people who think the industry is stagnating.

While this debate is still here....

I mean that Pollock numbered his stuff because he was sick of people trying to figure out what forms he was supposedly trying to convey with dripping paint. That there's painters and especially sculptors who do very little more than try to convey the tactile experience of creating an artwork. Fun is, after all, an experience.

Also I find it weird that one can appreciate Pollock and Pynchon and at the same time dismiss Killer7's merits entirely.

[snalin]

Spiderweb Softwarezzzz. Thanks, Zingo, now I'll have to go finish Avernum 6 or something. I have grades, you know.

[Catfish_Man]

So there's another problem: New games are sixty freaking dollars. And that's, essentially, that.

By the standards of most "art" pricing I've seen, $60 is effectively "free".

[I Am Not Amused]

Catfish, I disagree completely. I mean, I'm assuming that you're talking about visual art, but remember that you don't have to pay for a Picasso painting to see a Picasso painting. You can see many great pieces of visual art for the cost of entry to a museum, or see pictures of them on the Internet. You have to pay for a video game to experience a video game, at least legally. And, especially in online games, it's important to get the game right away so you're not behind the learning curve insofar as knowing map strategies, etc. goes. So, it's kind of a different thing.

[ackblom12]

Well you could very easily argue that rentals are the answer to that and those are easily accessible.

I think it's a silly argument either way honestly.

[Buttfranklin]

I think if developers focused more on FUN and less on CUTTING CORNERS FOR PROFIT$, and BEING ARTSY FARTSY we'd have way better video games.

Like, look at most good art.  It's not really trying to be art, it's just trying to be a good whatever the hell it is.  E.g., a landscape painting isn't good art because it's making an artistic statement, it's good art because it's a really good landscape painting that captures it really well and can evoke emotions and thoughts in a receptive viewer.  Art for art's sake is empty once the little blurb next to the piece in the museum is gone.  (That's my opinion anyway; if you think otherwise it's still a perfectly valid way of looking at art and you don't need to debate me about it since my way of looking at it is really no more or less correct.)  Likewise, I think y'd have a lot more artistic video games that you could get a lot more meaning out of if it were more fun and accessible.

For example, the most artistically good video games I can think of off the top of my head are: The Longest Journey (for great storytelling, great scenery, great characters, etc, and just being a fun game), Broken Sword 1 (for having such wonderful hand-painted scenes that are just a pleasure to play with), and of course, the big one, Planescape: Torment.

Now, you guys can talk about Killer 7 and how, um, genre bending it is, I guess, but to me it is a boring game with tedious controls and a bizarre plot and characters who you can't really relate with.  That's how it is for most people

I'm all for genre-bending, like in Planescape: Torment.  Not yr typical RPG!  There is no destined hero, the fate of yr town/kingdom/planet/universe isn't at risk, there are no non-human party members (although most of them were once Human), there are no swords (but who needs them when you can wield yr own disembodied arm as a weapon), there are no dwarves, elves, dragons, etc.  Even the catacombs dungeon crawl turns into you taking a side in a war between a bunch of sentient undead battling a hive of super-intelligent rats...  Or double crossing all of them.  Or slaughtering all of them.  And all of this takes places on a game engine that gave standard (but excellent) dungeon crawler action-RPG titles like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.  So not only is it genre-bending in the sheer amount of how many RPG tropes it turns on its head, it's still in the same easily accessible and fun game engine that people are familiar with.

Now, to compare it to Killer 7....  Killer 7 is the annoying modern art you see at a museum exhibit.  Planescape: Torment is the stuff painted by Michaelangelo in the Renaissance that's awe-inspiring even today.

BioShock 1 gave us some standard Shooter-RPG fare w/ a really neat artistic direction and a (feeble, but A for effort!) attempt to work in some social philosophy while yr blasting away mutants and fighting giant gorillas in bathing suits.  And it's a very memorable experience that was loads of fun and was pretty artistic.

[Storm Rider]

killer7 totally rules, all the haters better step the fuck off

[Cire27]

The only thing I really have to say about video games and art is:

[Spluff]

there are no non-human party members (although most of them were once Human), there are no swords (but who needs them when you can wield yr own disembodied arm as a weapon

Aren't all the possible party members non-human? I suppose Ignus is still human underneath the flames, but the rest are definitely not human. Also there are two swords in the game, but only one of them can be wielded by TNO.

[Alex C]

If anything Avellone got a li'l too cute with the breaking molds just to break molds bit. Don't hold me to it, but I vaguely remember him saying as much in the interviews thanks to the magic of hindsight-- he kinda waved off some of the more contrary bits of minutia as simply being because he was tired of elves and the scourge of Scottish Dwarf Syndrome. And honestly, who can blame him? That shit must get real old, real fast when you're working in the industry in a creative capacity.

Still, one of the fundamental problems with so blatantly rejecting stereotypes is that it in its own way it can still be somewhat limiting, since you're defining your characters in part by who/what they're not. That can be a pretty predictably shtick after a while and sometimes there's a difference between subverting something interestingly and just saying that your black characters don't like chicken or watermelon just so you can scratch another stereotype off the list. Torment was still a great game though. There was enough inventive stuff going on with that game that stuff like the non-traditional weapon choices were really more of a cheeky sideshow before the main event anyway.

[Johnny C]

I WILL SMACK THE NEXT PERSON WHO TALKS ABOUT ART AS IF THAT'S EVEN REALLY A THING IN A POST-BAHKTIN UNIVERSE

[Alex C]

I know what you mean. Ideally I just kinda throw things into three piles: Shitty, not shitty, and awesome.

[Johnny C]

well i'm more leaning towards the idea that talking about things in those terms occludes real conversation

[Zingoleb]

Spiderweb Softwarezzzz. Thanks, Zingo, now I'll have to go finish Avernum 6 or something. I have grades, you know.

Well, you used to.

I never got to 6; 5 was so glitchy and fucked up I just cheated my way to the end so I could "beat" it. I'll have to re-play it someday now that I'm pretty sure they patched that problem up. Working through Geneforge 4 for the second time now; betray the rebellion? Okay!

[Wasteroo]

Johnny C don't bring obscure Russian aestheticism into this

why you even got to do a thing

[Scandanavian War Machine]

he's canadian

all they can do are "things" and frankly it offends my delicate sensibilities



unrelated: whoa psyduck emoticon?!?!?! what the heck

[JD]

Afro dude seems to have disappeared

[David_Dovey]

Changed the thread name cos it was starting to bother me, even

[Johnny C]

I WILL SMACK THE NEXT PERSON WHO TALKS ABOUT ART AS IF THAT'S EVEN REALLY A THING IN A POST-BAHKTIN UNIVERSE

...who?

was i drunk when i posted this? i honestly can't remember