Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Faye catches Marigold reading Slash

2 (2.4%)

Tai WROTE "Quidditch Field Idyll"

3 (3.7%)

WILL YOU SIGN MY NETBOOK

4 (4.9%)

"It's really good though!"

0 (0%)

Wanna come to dinner?

1 (1.2%)

Marigold has no idea, does she?

24 (29.3%)

Novel Euphemism

10 (12.2%)

It's got lots of potential!

0 (0%)

B-but yea, TONS of potential!

4 (4.9%)

You have to show people WHY it's sexy.

4 (4.9%)

Ron... and SNAPE...

16 (19.5%)

I give up.

14 (17.1%)

Total Members Voted: 70

[Cartilage Head]

Still, you would think that Dora and Faye would try SOMETHING to protect Marigold from embarrassment/being taken advantage of. I think it is kind of a dumb idea that the girls are so against a man taking advantage of her, but Tai (who seems to be pretty aggressive when it comes to flirting) flirting is completely fine. I don't really see the difference between a lecherous man and a lecherous woman.

[laizeohbeets]

Marigold invited her over to show her what is, essentially, porn. Tai said "that's a novel euphemism" ... And we're not allowed to think there might be some awkwardness because Marigold has insisted that she is straight, straight, straight? And yet she's showing a lesbian her porn?

I honestly don't think she even put two and two together about the euphemism.

[Cartilage Head]

Marigold is showing her her erotic FANFIC. Marigold is also a huge nerd. If you know anything abut internet culture, you know that weeaboos are super passionate about their fanfic, and like to share it with people who share a similar interest. It has nothing to do with being interested in Tai sexually. According to your logic, guys who watch porn together want to fuck each-other's brains out.

[laizeohbeets]

My *point* is that Marigold does not even realize that what she thinks might be completely innocent may not be construed as such by the other party.

[mickcheese]

Because she KNEW shit was gonna go down and she consciously did nothing to stop her friends from getting hurt.  She may think it's "kawaii", but she KNOWS Mari is straight, and she knows how fragile Marigold is.  Dora also KNOWS what Tai is thinking, which is why she thinks it's so cute.  If she thought it was JUST two people going to lunch, then she wouldn't have gotten all doe-eyed.  I'm less upset at Faye because Faye at least realizes that something should have been done, while Dora simply revels in it.  I'm pissed at Dora for keeping her trap shut (first time I've ever used THAT phrase).

Who's getting hurt? When and how? Tai MIGHT make a serious pass at Mari and Mari will most likely rebuff that advance the same way EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET HAS MADE A FAILED PASS AT SOMEONE OR HAD TO REBUFF SOMEONE'S ADVANCES.

This is not a critical situation folks. Calm down.

Dude, come ON.  This has nothing to do with homophobia AT ALL.  It's got to do with the fact that Tai's interests are NOT completely innocent, and frankly, rarely are when it comes to women.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's just how she is.  On the other side we have Marigold, who is very fragile and socially deficient - she's putting herself out on a limb, being VERY brave and trying to make a new friend, and she's going to get accosted by Tai, who will hopefully not traumatize the poor girl too much.  It's a reaction of protection towards Marigold, nothing more.

It has NOTHING to do with homophobia, and I really don't think that's a word that should be thrown around so casually.

When you bandy about words like accosted and traumatized because a lesbian MIGHT make a pass at a straight girl you start looking fairly homophobic.

Still, you would think that Dora and Faye would try SOMETHING to protect Marigold from embarrassment/being taken advantage of. I think it is kind of a dumb idea that the girls are so against a man taking advantage of her, but Tai (who seems to be pretty aggressive when it comes to flirting) flirting is completely fine. I don't really see the difference between a lecherous man and a lecherous woman.

Taken advantage of? Again, you're jumping to a rather extreme conclusion.

Seriously, when did Tai become a sexual predator?

[Moxie]

As I started reading the first panel, I was all "Hey, cool, I was totally wrong, they are just hanging out and talking as friends and this may just be awesome for the both of them after all!" and then I kept reading and as Marigold is going all blushy and stammery while inviting Tai over (which we know is just what Marigold does when she's nervous about the situation she's in - and also, props to her for really going out on a limb and trying to do something friends probably would - but anyway, Tai probably doesn't know this about Marigold, which may lead her into thinking there's more to the situation than there really is) but the whole thing just reeks of typical sitcom misunderstanding, with Tai all thinking that Marigold is into girls, and thus making a move on her, probably at just the moment Angus walks in, and so Marigold's embarrassment at 1, not reading the signs of Tai asking her out, 2, inadvertently leading Tai on/into thinking she wanted Tai to make a move, and 3, being found in an awkward moment by a guy she just got over seems to foreshadow that Marigold will return to being a recluse because wah she's just so terrible at social interaction. And maybe she'll yell at Dora and Faye for not pointing out to her the way the situation was going down. Or maybe she and Tai will just laugh it off and be better friends, but that just makes it more sitcom-y if you ask me.

But we'll see what tomorrow brings!


Oh yeah - to the discussion going on about why it's so frustrating that Dora (and Faye) didn't mention anything to Marigold about Tai's sexuality/the real possibility that Tai asked Marigold out on a date. First, we know that Marigold is bad with social situations and reading social cues, so even if she knows that drinking makes Tai frolic about in her underwear, we have no idea if she knows of Tai's sexual orientation. I think it is also safe to conclude that Marigold wouldn't view this as a date, even if Tai currently does. Second, we know that Marigold has already been upset that Dora (and Faye) withheld information from her regarding people's love lives (specifically what was going on between Faye and Angus). She believes (rightfully so, I think) that she deserves to know what's going on if it affects her, and she hasn't already seen the signs.
That's not to say that sure, the awkwardness that may ensue won't kill either Marigold or Tai, but if the awkwardness didn't have to happen, if this had all just been cleared up from the get-go, I still think the two of them could have gone out to eat and talk about fanfiction with the understanding that it was only as friends...which may be better for both of them after all. (Heck, I can even see Tai getting mad at Dora for not mentioning to her that Marigold doesn't swing that way. Why waste time flirting on a lost cause?)

[Is it cold in here?]

Tai has pushed herself on a straight chick up to and past the point of discomfort, but she's different from Sven both in Dora's eyes and objectively.

As far as we know Tai has never had to crawl out a bathroom window to avoid an ex, nor enraged someone to the point of throwing her guitar in the street, nor left someone so irate as to throw dishes during Thanksgiving.

On the other hand, 815 revealed that she was non-consensually two-timing Serena.

[AnAverageWriter]

Seriously, when did Tai become a sexual predator?

I wouldn't go so far as a "predator", persay, but she does come across to me as incredibly selfish (in terms of wanting what makes her happy no matter who it hurts). An example would be the last comic she was in where she talked about how Dora was "tainted", as if Dora was some sort of plaything that had been taken out of the box, and how open she is about wanting to break up people's relationships. Gay, straight or in-between, bragging about that is creepy and weird.

Edit:
Yeah, 815 pretty much hits the nail on the head to me. That she's bragging about her destructive actions, smiling and laughing about it... I mean, sheesh, if that's not just bad behavior, I don't know what is. And Marigold is still, at this point, very fragile.

[Cartilage Head]

 That sums up Tai's character pretty well. I am actually offended pretty often when she comes up in the strip. It seems like since she is a girl, her lecherous nature, selfish relationship patterns, and sexual objectification of other women are endearing. If she were a straight man, I highly doubt most people would find her endearing.

[akronnick]

It's interesting that someone objected to my use of the word "innocent" in regard to Tai's interest in Marigold. When I was typing that post (before Jeph posted the comic) I originally used the word "chaste." Now that it's clear that Tai has a romantic interest in Marigold, suddenly there's something wrong? That point of view isn't only homophobic, it's sexaphobic too, as if sexual and romantic attraction were something shameful and dirty. Tai likes girls. Unless Marigold is completely clueless, she has to know that there exists a possibility that Tai might hit on her.

If it had been Dale instead of Tai, everybody here would be screaming "Maridale" five times a post, but because it's a same-sex situation, suddenly it's "Oh NOES, Tai is such a slut! Marigold may be embarrassed! Why didn't someone warn her?! she'll never get over the shock that another girl LIKES her!!!"

As someone who considered (past tense) myself straight until a gay guy made a pass at me (and quite a welcome one too,) it kind of irks me when people assume that straight people NEVER welcome attention from people of the same sex.

Marigold identifies as straight, but she may just assume she's straight because she's never had an opportunity to explore a same-sex situation. It's quite possible that when the moment of truth comes, she'll just say fuck it and go with it.

Tai knows what she's doing, and I can't believe that as experienced as Tai is, she's never misread a signal and made a pass at someone who wasn't interested. As long as she doesn't force the issue, Tai has nothing to be ashamed of.

This may just be the situation that gets Marigold to consider the reality of physical affection, even if it is with another girl. Maybe when Tai makes a move (which seems inevitable now) Marigold may just let her curiosity (and her deprived libido) take over.

Which brings us back to Dora...

Dora did ABSOLUTELY the right thing by keeping her mouth shut.

First, she's not Marigold's mother. Second, If Marigold is ever going to be able to accurately read social cues, she's going to have to learn how to do it for herself. She needs experience, and the only way that's going to happen is if she lets herself get into situations where she might get hurt. What happens then is HER responsibility, Dora can't just give her the skills she needs, she has to learn them. Third, there exists a chance that Marigold may, when the moment of truth comes, discover something about herself that she might not otherwise have realized, and if a "friend" had stopped me the night I went home from the bar with guy the first time, I would have been quite upset.

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for, Marigold has to sail the treacherous waters of the Adult-Relationship Ocean, even if she has to cross the dangerous shoals of the Gulf of Awkwardness.

And I think I'm going to need a new UBMEOD before this arc is over, because there's no way the one I have will last!

[westrim]

Wow, lots of stuff since I last checked in. I'll try to limit my tendency to over respond. Lets see... I find netbooks to generally be badly designed since the OSes aren't scaled properly, and macs to be very overpriced for a negligible performance boost and limited ability to modify or accessorize, among other drawbacks. I can't comment on 7 basic since I refuse to use a netbook, but 7 in general is a better OS than XP except for some inexplicable file access changes that shouldn't be an issue on a NETbook. Business lines have less bloatware but also cost more.

OKay, that's out of the way. Now for the juicy bits that actually have to do with the comic. First, non TaiMari stuff. Relationshipquakes is an awesome term and I will use it in a conversation as early as possible. I get the impression that the main reason Tai gets disliked is her promiscuity, which is understandable. What people can deal with on the net and in real life are often completely different. Since today hit 90f I'd take the cooler offer, but i don't drink beer. Root beer, maybe. Okay, page 2 done, on to page 3.

Now, I seem to have triggered something if a firestorm in the person of my lackey unknown person that agrees with me, Corrigan. Let me clarify my views, if I can. The issue is that she quite often meddles in other people's lives in the strip whether they want it or not, as designated team mom- I think not very many would debate that. The problem is that despite that tendency, she did not intervene in this clearly-going-to-get-worse situation (especially after today's strip), purely because it appealed to her. She has just as much responsibility to intervene in situations she does like as those she doesn't when the grounds is that someone is going to get hurt. Recap #1: her tendency to interfere is bad, but suddenly not interfering because she likes the scenario (despite obvious recognition that one of the two does not know what's happening, and previous evidence indication that she will not react well to the revelation or that the other will know the meaning of restraint) is even worse. Recap #2: She interfered with Sven and Hannelore despite knowing that both knew exactly what was was going on, purely because she didn't like the idea of them together. Now we have Marigold clearly oblivious, Tai clearly hitting on her, and Dora clearly letting them move towards a Nice Boat (okay, it probably won't end that badly) because she thinks the idea of them together is cute.

As for Marigold, she may have handled the Fayngus revelation okay, but that was character growth, and character growth isn't steady (and it happened after she already had a severe, multi week freak out over Angus rejecting her). God only knows what will happen when she realizes a person with another orientation is hitting on her (which today's strip makes clear that she hasn't) or worse, ends up the the recipient of an unwanted kiss herself.  Several people said Dora shouldn't get in the way of a friendship in progress: problem is, only one character thinks that what it is; the other thinks they're on a date, and that is unlikely to end well. A friendship may happen, but not because one of the friends hit on the the other one who was clueless, and that could have been prevented.

No one is asking for Dora to have prevented them from going out or anything remotely similar. A simple "Tai, stop hitting on her," off hand comment would have defused the situation right quick; Marigold would be clued in, Tai would back off, and they could go off and read fanfiction all night long.

Okay, hope that covered everything. I managed to not make it a 3 page long quote-and-respond, at least. Assume this was posted at 6PM EST while I catch up on the rest.

[AnAverageWriter]

akronnick-
I think you're too quick to use the word "homophobic" here. Seriously-
Do you really think people are dismayed because Tai is a girl who might show Marigold new avenues?

Have you REALLY come to expect that here?

Maybe it's just my perspective on things, but I don't see this as a homosexual-oriented thing, but from the viewpoint of a vulnerable person (Marigold) who is JUST starting to emerge from her shell and socialize with people suddenly being alone with someone who is, quite frankly, a terrible human being.

Again,

It's not because Tai is gay.

It has nothing to do with her homosexuality.

It has everything to do with the fact that Tai has absolutely no problem using people for her own selfish purposes, breaking up relationships, and in general doing whatever she feels like doing no matter the human cost for others.

[mickcheese]

I wouldn't go so far as a "predator", persay, but she does come across to me as incredibly selfish (in terms of wanting what makes her happy no matter who it hurts). An example would be the last comic she was in where she talked about how Dora was "tainted", as if Dora was some sort of plaything that had been taken out of the box, and how open she is about wanting to break up people's relationships. Gay, straight or in-between, bragging about that is creepy and weird.

The Dora being tainted thing was silly, but it's only silly because the reasoning was "he jizzed there". I totally get a friend's ex losing all sexual appeal. When you know two people as part of a couple for long enough they stop being individuals and start being "so-and-so's girl" or "so-and-so's guy". At some point thinking about them as a sexual being just feels wrong. If she used the jizz as a cover (heh, gross) for an actual realization that she could never date her friend's ex for real reasons than that page is a lot less strange. But maybe I'm giving her too much credit and she really is just disgusted by the idea of Martin's Happy Batter. That's a weird attitude, not a bad attitude. No one's hurt by it, it's just immature.

As for actively trying to break up someone's relationship the only example I can think of is Dora and Martin and I never took that as anything more than playful banter. And by the way, that's how Dora and Martin took it too.

Edit:
Yeah, 815 pretty much hits the nail on the head to me. That she's bragging about her destructive actions, smiling and laughing about it... I mean, sheesh, if that's not just bad behavior, I don't know what is. And Marigold is still, at this point, very fragile.

See, I don't read that as anything more than her trying to move herself from a polyamorous relationship into a monogamous relationship and not handling it very well. That sure wasn't the best way to go about it, but she's in college. College is a time for being stupid and selfish. I couldn't add up all the stupid mistakes I made in college with a calculator and Stephen Hawking's help.

Numbers just don't go that high.

[jordinyc]

[AnAverageWriter]

The Dora being tainted thing was silly

It wasn't silly, it was creepy and disgusting. Dora has rebuffed Tai on numerous occasions throughout the strip (yes, I am too lazy to go digging through them all), yet that's totally irrelevant to Tai. In Tai's mind, Dora the plaything would have been "ripe for the picking" had Martin not taken her "out of the box". Hence, also in previous strips, why she's tried making passes at Dora. Repeatedly. Despite Dora clearly not being interested. It's not about "losing sexual appeal", it's that Tai would have had to deal with Dora being a "used toy". Hence why she described it as such in the very next strip.

See, I don't read that as anything more than her trying to move herself from a polyamorous relationship into a monogamous relationship and handling doing it very well.

So two-timing, cheating and being perfectly ok with doing that, despite having a CLEARLY STATED prior agreement is "handling it well"? No, it's not. It's being totally selfish and disregarding other people's feelings, all so Tai can get what Tai wants.

That sure wasn't the best way to go about it, but she's in college. College is a time for being stupid and selfish.

Wait, so now just because she's youthful, she gets a pass? What happened to all the talk about "mature adults" and such? And that makes it all right?

[Dr. ROFLPWN]

I would love to say that I don't think Tai would stoop to date rape if/when Marigold said no, but that frankly ascribes a level of self-control, maturity, and respect for others that Tai has not demonstrated during her appearances. I don't have a beef with Tai cause the girl is gay, I have a beef with her because she flat-out told Dora, "God, I wish you would break up with Marten so I could have sex with you" in front of Marten, who is 1.) her friend, 2.) her subordinate at work, and 3.) was her in to the entire social circle in the first place. That's some gross shit right there. If she was a dude and she pulled that, there would be harsh words all around.

That being said? I don't fault Dora cause she really is just happy for Mar-bear and no one gets that Tai is gross, and even if she is she seems harmless. She's never hurt any if them, so from their perspective this shit is cute.

And it could be cute! I hope Tai either magically does not do bad shit to Marigold and deals with the shutdown, or she pulls off a Sven-style fifth Dan seduction technique and Mari realizes hey, this girlsex thing is awwwwwwwwwriiiiight

[mickcheese]

It wasn't silly, it was creepy and disgusting. Dora has rebuffed Tai on numerous occasions throughout the strip (yes, I am too lazy to go digging through them all), yet that's totally irrelevant to Tai. In Tai's mind, Dora the plaything would have been "ripe for the picking" had Martin not taken her "out of the box". Hence, also in previous strips, why she's tried making passes at Dora. Repeatedly. Despite Dora clearly not being interested. It's not about "losing sexual appeal", it's that Tai would have had to deal with Dora being a "used toy". Hence why she described it as such in the very next strip.

Dora isn't interested because she's in an intimate relationship. She has shown that she enjoys or is at least flattered by Tai's attention. I'm not looking up the strips, but she was jealous when Tai turned her attentions to Faye at a party (she was huggin' Faye because Faye was warm, apparently) and she and Martin shared a moment where they were both think about Tai's pierced hood in another strip. She's never turned away Tai in a manner suggesting she wants Tai to leave her alone, in fact she seems to do the opposite.

Aside from that, I think you're reading WAY too much into a few offhand comments. She likes Dora as a person, she's shown that on multiple occasions. She DOESN'T really think of her as a toy.

So two-timing, cheating and being perfectly ok with doing that, despite having a CLEARLY STATED prior agreement is "handling it well"? No, it's not. It's being totally selfish and disregarding other people's feelings, all so Tai can get what Tai wants.

You quoted before I fixed that typo. NOT handling it well.

My fault, sorry.

Wait, so now just because she's youthful, she gets a pass? What happened to all the talk about "mature adults" and such? And that makes it all right?

Because she's significantly younger than the rest of the cast. They are mature adults. She is not.

It's not alright, but it's understandable. Kids are dumb.

[bhtooefr]

Here's the other thing. Dora considers Tai a friend, too, and pulling a "ZOMG MARIGOLD TAI WILL RAAAAEP YUO" would be a dick move to Tai.

Oh, and Marten's had issues with people even IMAGINING Dora naked, before (Tai in this case, but he mentions her exes): http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=773

[Moxie]

I'm just pulling out a couple of specific things I want to remark upon:

Tai likes girls. Unless Marigold is completely clueless, she has to know that there exists a possibility that Tai might hit on her.

First, I'm not sure that Marigold even knows Tai likes girls, but regardless of that, I'd argue that yes, Marigold is completely clueless (at least currently) and also that she has no idea that there is possibility that Tai might hit on her - but I'd argue that's from the perspective that Marigold doesn't consider herself attractive enough to imagine anyone, male or female, to hit on her.

If it had been Dale instead of Tai, everybody here would be screaming "Maridale" five times a post, but because it's a same-sex situation, suddenly it's "Oh NOES, Tai is such a slut! Marigold may be embarrassed! Why didn't someone warn her?! she'll never get over the shock that another girl LIKES her!!!......Second, If Marigold is ever going to be able to accurately read social cues, she's going to have to learn how to do it for herself. She needs experience, and the only way that's going to happen is if she lets herself get into situations where she might get hurt. "

(I'm tying these two together because that's how my response went.) Even if it were Dale, I would still still argue that it should have been brought up that this is a date situation, since Marigold apparently still has no clue that's what is going on. The gender of the person doesn't matter, it's more that this situation is not necessarily a good one for a person who is just starting to become social to be in. Reading social cues can be really tough, and if one isn't particularly expecting something out of a situation (that's only made worse by sitcom misunderstandings), it could be enough to make the person totally backtrack on any progress made. And this could happen to Marigold even if this were Dale. It isn't about a girl liking Marigold, it's about helping out a person who isn't aware of what's going on. Yes, Marigold needs to learn to read signs herself, and yes, she's going to be put in awkward situations while that happens, but come on, when two people she considers friends just let her walk away without any inkling of what's going on, I don't think that's being a friend.  As westrim said, Dora saying something like "Tai, stop hitting on Marigold" could have still let there be an awkward moment, but also allowed Marigold the chance to see what cues she was missing. And I think something like that should have been done, regardless of the person hitting on Marigold. (And interestingly, if it was someone like Dale, who Dora may not have considered as "cute" as she apparently does Tai/Marigold, do you think Dora might have spoken up? Interesting thought.)

Tai knows what she's doing, and I can't believe that as experienced as Tai is, she's never misread a signal and made a pass at someone who wasn't interested. As long as she doesn't force the issue, Tai has nothing to be ashamed of.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought that Tai has made passes at Faye, indeed made Faye quite uncomfortable, despite Faye not being interested. And she's alluded, at least, to wanting Dora, and talks about it with Marten, despite being his boss. I think that Tai isn't that experienced, really (she's young and in college and still figuring out what she even wants) and she is the personality type to push people way past comfort levels. Up til now, we've also seen her get away with it, with no one really calling her out on that, though at least Marten got close with that last interaction the two of them had. (Also, Dr. ROFLPWN brings up some very good points in regards to Tai's behavior concerning Dora)
I would say that Tai knows what she's doing, but at least with what we've seen of her, I don't think that what Tai does is very nice.

First, she's not Marigold's mother.

Others have said it better than me in regards to this, but Dora often likes to act as the mother of most of the gang. (Not the best example but, even though Hanners was better friends with Marigold at the time of the Angus-Faye-partydrama, Dora decided she was the best one to handle the situation and just decided that was how it was gonna be.) It's been said quite often that Dora is the voice of reason within the group (except when it concerns her own insecurities or Sven) - despite not being anyone's mother, Dora quite often takes that role. That's why I think it's almost jarring here that Dora seems content to let Marigold go off with Tai without knowing what's going on simply because apparently Dora thinks it's cute.


EDIT:

Wait, so now just because she's youthful, she gets a pass? What happened to all the talk about "mature adults" and such? And that makes it all right?

Because she's significantly younger than the rest of the cast. They are mature adults. She is not.

It's not alright, but it's understandable. Kids are dumb.

The "mature adults" allowing the immature person to continue to act as such without comment on why her behavior should change doesn't make them seem that mature to me. Her behavior may be understandable, but to me it looks like she acts as such because she simply can - no one calls her out on it.

[bhtooefr]

Marten told Tai to back off of Hanners...

[AnAverageWriter]

She DOESN'T really think of her as a toy

I disagree. To Tai, even someone she is aiming for a relationship in becomes a plaything. She lies, manipulates, makes insinuations, tries to push herself on people, and all without any regard for the feelings of whoever she has objectifies. She has also referred to Dora as "a thing" on occasion.

She makes playthings, toys out of people. Regardless of whether she is "young and dumb" she still has done it and shows no evidence of even an attempt to rectify.

[westrim]

Okay, now I'll do some good old fashioned quoting. This post is realtime.

Out of curiosity, this straight dude attended the (excellent) Yuri panel at last weekend's MangaNEXT, and I'm still baffled at the supposed straight dude delight in Yuri...  The bright and experienced American yuri publisher (an out and proud lesbian) running the panel explained that, especially in Japan, any actual consummation of the F-F relationship (or even worse, ANY hint that either have ever had sex with a guy!) totally destroys the yuri manga's appeal. It destroyed one popular yuri manga; hordes of Japanese women sent back their badges in dismay, abandoning the story in horror.

So, I'm baffled; we're told men read yuri (to project, to feel like naughty females, yadda) ... but then are deeply offended when sex occurs...???  This does not sound male to me, this seems like a (lesbian?) female reaction.  Remember, males are the ones who consume vast quantities of actual hardcore porn where sex is the whole point.

I then went and read a yuri manga and the furthest they got was staring into each others eyes and emoting furiously. To me, a total waste of paper and ink.  I'm sorry, i don't see the male turn-on in Yuri.

Part of the problem is the differing definitions.  Over there, yuri basically covers everything about a lesbian relationship. Here, it was originally understood just in terms of hentai and it was only recently that the  broader definition was picked up on, since actual yuri manga doesn't have much of an audience here. Most dudes, Japanese and American, are only interested in it after it reaches the H level. Most yuri manga is in fact not geared towards dudes since the Japanese, as that panel may have brought up, see schoolgirl lesbians as a perfectly okay phase- but only a phase. Like you just said, it was women reading that manga and women who sent in their badges (it's weird that in the next paragraph you flip that to males), since in the end they expect the tragic tale to fold up with them finishing their phase and leaving each other for matrimony with a dude. Essentially, they are tolerant of lesbians, but NOT as an orientation. Since America flips that, with more tolerance, there isn't really a market for it since that ending is culturally incompatible.

TL;DR Men don't read yuri, they look at it.

Dora and Faye did absolutely the right thing keeping their mouths shut.
Marigold is ostensibly a big girl, and even if she's not, the only way she's going to grow is for her to get out of the house and around people and risk being embarrassed.
Tai, while maybe a bit shallow, isn't a total creep. she may not even be into Marigold, and even if she was, she's experienced enough to know when it's appropriate to make a pass and when it isn't. If Tai doesn't get a sense that Marigold would be open to anything more than friendship, she'll almost certainly keep things on a strictly platonic level.
I think it displays a bit of homophobia the reaction that people are having to Tai displaying (what to this point has been) a completely innocent social interest in another girl. Some of the reactions here are more appropriate for a Priest taking out a five-year-old, not two grown women.
Just because Tai likes girls doesn't mean that she wants to get with anything with a vagina. In fact, Tai has been bemoaning the un-fulfilling qualities of an abundance of casual sex. I don't think Tai is going to be interested in Marigold for just a casual encounter. I'm not saying that Tai wouldn't be open to a relationship with Marigold, I just don't think it's her primary motivation, and I doubt she'd make too much of a move on the first date, if this is even a date. It's more likely that she'll give up when Marigold completely misses all of her flirting.
Warning! While you were typing Jeph posted the comic, you may wish to review your post
OH, SHIT!!!!!

I can let you off the hook somewhat, since you apparently missed the "brutal criticisms"  comment and Faye and Dora's clear comprehension of the innuendo, and you seem to have realized the mistake as of the newest strip. But yes, Tai was in fact hitting on her, and she is not known for her chastity. What you term homophobia is just (roughly) the same reaction that Sven provokes, and that he would provoke if he started hitting on say, Hannelore. Actually, the response is much milder (than to Sven OR to Sven hitting on Hanners).

Yeah. The "OMG! They should have WARNED her!" reaction does feel that way, doesn't it? One does wonder if the Dora's-a-dick crowd would have had the same reaction if Tai had been a man who'd asked Marigold out to dinner in the same circumstances.
Tonight's joke feels a bit forced to me. No matter how introverted Marigold might be, it's a bit hard to imagine she'd confuse the meaning of "novel" in Tai's quip. English is my second language, and I wouldn't.

Like I said, Sven. Hannelore. But both of you are reading too much into it; most expect Tai to act promiscuous  and Marigold to be clueless, and were fine with that; Dora letting the misunderstanding persist, not so much. What's homophobic about expecting to Tai to act exactly as she has and IS acting? Or about wanting Marigold to avoid the upcoming social backfire, given her previous actions/reactions?

To be honest... is there much difference between Tai flirting with an apparently-oblivious Marigold, and Sven even getting CLOSE to Mar?  Dora and Faye were vehement about him staying away from her.  To be honest, she was vulnerable then, and still hurting from Angus' rejection, a situation that Dora has since seen resolved... but really, there's direct, unsolicited flirting going on.  Why is Dora's reaction so different?

Because she's had issues with Sven sleeping with her friends since high school. Tai's never slept with one of her friends. There's a big difference in behavior patterns that explains Dora's reaction.

That doesn't excuse Dora's inaction in this instance because the worry isn't about Tai, it's about Marigold.

I don't understand how it's Dora's responsibility to do or say anything in this situation. Two of her friends decided to go get a dinner together. That's it.

Because she KNEW shit was gonna go down and she consciously did nothing to stop her friends from getting hurt.  She may think it's "kawaii", but she KNOWS Mari is straight, and she knows how fragile Marigold is.  Dora also KNOWS what Tai is thinking, which is why she thinks it's so cute.  If she thought it was JUST two people going to lunch, then she wouldn't have gotten all doe-eyed.  I'm less upset at Faye because Faye at least realizes that something should have been done, while Dora simply revels in it.  I'm pissed at Dora for keeping her trap shut.

I think it displays a bit of homophobia the reaction that people are having to Tai displaying (what to this point has been) a completely innocent social interest in another girl.

Dude, come ON.  This has nothing to do with homophobia AT ALL.  It's got to do with the fact that Tai's interests are NOT completely innocent, and frankly, rarely are when it comes to women.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's just how she is.  On the other side we have Marigold, who is very fragile and socially deficient - she's putting herself out on a limb, being VERY brave and trying to make a new friend, and she's going to get accosted by Tai, who will hopefully not traumatize the poor girl too much.  It's a reaction of protection towards Marigold, nothing more.
It has NOTHING to do with homophobia, and I really don't think that's a word that should be thrown around so casually.

Dang, I wish I had read this before writing my responses. I think you put it much better.

Marigold invited her over to show her what is, essentially, porn. Tai said "that's a novel euphemism" ... And we're not allowed to think there might be some awkwardness because Marigold has insisted that she is straight, straight, straight? And yet she's showing a lesbian her porn?

No, she's inviting her over to show her her fanfiction. Some of it may be pornographic, yes, but don't conflate the terms, and we don't actually have any indication of what Marigold writes yet except that it's probably about dudes with dudes. And from Marigold's previous remarks it seems she's more about the character development (no, not "development", just development), anyway. And where have we seen that Marigold knows Tai's orientation? Tai certainly knows Marigolds.

My *point* is that Marigold does not even realize that what she thinks might be completely innocent may not be construed as such by the other party.

Thanks, captain.

Okay, gonna stop now, I'm getting snarky. And for my own sanity and time, I think I'll skip the rest.

[Chymes]

My god some people take the comic too seriously! And some people have very limited and deluded views on life. Worrying. The outcome of the arc? Likely that they'll both be embarrassed and that's about the end of it. Tai might be more promiscuous than most, but it's not like she does it in a "inevitably gonna hurt people but don't care" sort of way. She's pretty straight up and decent, and just cause it's different to what society deems the norm, some conceive it as rotten and twisted, when it's just different. *sighs*

[Akima]

It's not because Tai is gay. It has nothing to do with her homosexuality.

Maybe. Maybe not. Comparing the responses from some here to Dora's trying to interfere in the Sven/Hanners date (that Dora was a dick and a bad person), and to her not interfering in this Tai/Marigold thing (that Dora was a dick and a bad person), I'm not so sure that there isn't a double-standard being applied. Neither Sven nor Tai has an exactly exemplary record in personal relationships (and Sven can't even play the youth card*). Both have a record of putting their desires first, seduction, manipulation, two-timing etc. Marigold is no more vulnerable than Hanners (as far as we know, Marigold isn't under psychiatric care), and no more deserving of protection, so I can see one of Dora's responses being wrong, but not both. Unless different standards are being applied to Sven and Tai.

*Not that Tai can be all that much younger than the rest of the cast. She's small in stature sure, but we've seen a reference to her being a TA at Smif, so presumably she's at least a grad student. Which, in the USA, would make her 22-23+, wouldn't it?

[akronnick]

OMG!!!

Can open!

Worms everywhere!!!

akronnick-
I think you're too quick to use the word "homophobic" here. Seriously-
Do you really think people are dismayed because Tai is a girl who might show Marigold new avenues?

Have you REALLY come to expect that here?

Maybe it's just my perspective on things, but I don't see this as a homosexual-oriented thing, but from the viewpoint of a vulnerable person (Marigold) who is JUST starting to emerge from her shell and socialize with people suddenly being alone with someone who is, quite frankly, a terrible human being.

Again,


It's not because Tai is gay.

It has nothing to do with her homosexuality.

It has everything to do with the fact that Tai has absolutely no problem using people for her own selfish purposes, breaking up relationships, and in general doing whatever she feels like doing no matter the human cost for others.

Is that what you think she's doing?

What I see her doing is exploring a shared interest with someone she's acquainted with, leading to a nice dinner conversation and an invitation back to her new friends place. Tai's not going after her because she's naive or inexperienced or because she might be easy. If Tai were taking advantage of Marigold's inexperience, that would be predatory, and I wouldn't approve of that. But Tai is just going with the flow here, being spontaneous, and trying to expand her own social circle. A while ago she was saying that she couldn't find anyone in her current circle that was interested in a serious relationship with her, so she steps out of that circle and suddenly she's a predator?

Tai never seriously wanted to break Marten and Dora up so that she could sleep with Dora. She was attracted to Dora because of her solid relationship with Marten, which made her (Tai) uncomfortable, so she joked about breaking them up to diffuse that bit of tension. Has anyone who seriously tried to get someone to cheat on them ever done it right in front of their partner?

The reason this seems like homophobia to me is because many people are reacting like "Marigold, get away from Tai! Don't you know you might catch TEH GAY!?!?! Run!!!!!"

While that may not rise to the level of Arkansas school board homophobia, It's homophobia nevertheless. It is precisely BECAUSE I expect more from the netizens of this board that I'm calling it as I see it.

Too many people treat the characters (and by extension, real people who are similar to the characters) as if they can be defined entirely by whatever stereotype best fits them. Jeph's characters are much less one-dimensional for this to be a reasonable position.

And while It may be possible that I am letting my feelings about unrelated real world current events,Fucking John Boehner!!! I stand by my point of view.

Tai has done nothing wrong by hitting on Marigold.

Marigold is a human being who needs to learn to make her own choices.

And Dora wouldn't have done either of them any favors by intervening.


Addenedum: (6 new replies)

Goddamit people, This Dick-broom is wearing out faster than I can type!

I don't have time to respond to every individual statement, but if you find yourself thinking "I'm not being Homophobic, am I?" you might want to think some more (and that's all I'm going to say about that)

And my non-specific response to the Marigold is clueless crowd is thus:

Of course she's clueless, she has no experience! She can't learn to not be clueless unless the takes a risk or two, gets embarrassed and *gasp* get's her heart broken!

It's something she needs to learn, and the only way to really learn it is the hard way.

Yes, everyone else in the cast (except Hanners) learned this stuff in junior high, but that doesn't mean that since Marigold missed it then, that she can get off without learning the hard lessons sooner or later. (and as having had my first homosexual encounter when I was thirty, believe me, the sooner the better!)

addendum #2 (3 new replies)

One more point before my dick-broom falls completely apart:

People are comparing Tai to Sven, and that they equally disapprove of both, what that works out to is this:

Sven is (or was) a cad. Tai is a lesbian. Dora disapproves of cads, therefore she should....

Yep, no homophobia at the end of that sentence.

Addendum #3 (2 new replies)

I'm posting this as is no matter how many new replies and I'll respond to further discussion later, when I'm not trying to clarify what I said earlier, and I have a UBMEOD that isn't completely worn out. (and after I've thoroughly studied any and all online thesaurus entries for the word completely!)

[no one special]

Marten told Tai to back off of Hanners...

Excellent point, and a perfect example of what Dora should have done.  That's the difference between marten and Dora.  marten knows how to empathize with another human being, while Dora... well, if she can, she hasn't shown much evidence of said ability to this point.

[AnAverageWriter]

Sven is (or was) a cad. Tai is a lesbian. Dora disapproves of cads, therefore she should...

Not a single person here has said anything that amounts to that.

In fact, they have gone out of their way to make sure to be clear that it's not "that way".

Tai is not simply "a lesbian", and simply being "a lesbian" is not what people have the problem with here.

Tai has a history of using people, tossing them when she gets through with them, lying to them, and in general treating them like toys, like playthings (this must be the what, fifth time I've reiterated that). I have a difficult time believing that Tai has anything BUT ulterior motives on her mind, given her past conduct.

many people are reacting like "Marigold, get away from Tai! Don't you know you might catch TEH GAY!?!?! Run!!!!!"

Who?

Which people?

Everyone I've seen here has reacted out of concern for Marigold's well-being- not because Marigold might become "TEH GAY", but because Marigold might end up falling for someone who is known to be abusive. Whether it be a lesbian relationship or a straight relationship, being with someone who has a long history of using people would not be beneficial for Marigold.

Honestly, it would be kind of nice if Jeph would introduce a fully lesbian character into the strip with a little more thoughtfulness and self-restraint than Tai. If he wants that to be Marigold, I'm all for it.

[Moxie]

It's not because Tai is gay. It has nothing to do with her homosexuality.

Maybe... Maybe not. Comparing the responses from some here to Dora's trying to interfere in the Sven/Hanners date (that Dora was a dick and a bad person), and to her not interfering in this Tai/Marigold thing (that Dora was a dick and a bad person)....

To me, the major difference between the two situations is that Hanners was aware of what she wanted (a pretend date) and who she was asking it from (Sven, a guy who's know to not be all that stellar). Marigold isn't aware of what's going on - she just thinks she's having lunch with a cool person who likes fanfiction, just like her, and who writes fanfiction she likes! - and she is unaware of Tai's potential intentions, as she didn't pick up on the flirting.
In short, Dora seemed to refuse to accept that Hanners could be aware of what she was asking for, and acted like she had to stand up for her because Sven is just so terrible, yet when she sees Marigold miss cues from a person whose intentions aren't always so awesome either, she keeps her mouth shut because she's just so doe-eyed about the possibilities.

*Not that Tai can be all that much younger than the rest of the cast. She's small in stature sure, but we've seen a reference to her being a TA at Smif, so presumably she's at least a grad student. Which, in the USA, would make her 22-23+, wouldn't it?

Isn't the rest of the crew around 25-26? There can be a lot of growth in those two/three years, much stemming from leaving the college world and being in the real world, so I'd still view Tai as mentally younger than the others.

[no one special]

Who's getting hurt? When and how? Tai MIGHT make a serious pass at Mari and Mari will most likely rebuff that advance the same way EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET HAS MADE A FAILED PASS AT SOMEONE OR HAD TO REBUFF SOMEONE'S ADVANCES.

Remember how the failed pass was traumatic to her?  Being passed at (for lack of a better term) unexpectedly could make Marigold very wary about creeping outside her little bubble, because she has no way to tell how what she says is being construed.  This being the case, she might think it's better not to try to make friends anymore, because look what happens.  It's not that Tai means any offense, obviously.

It has NOTHING to do with homophobia, and I really don't think that's a word that should be thrown around so casually.

When you bandy about words like accosted and traumatized because a lesbian MIGHT make a pass at a straight girl you start looking fairly homophobic.
[/quote]

I think you've misconstrued what I meant.  In my life, "accosted" is just a term I use when you jump someone's bones. 

And just for clarification (just in case) I have never implied any sort of predatory nature on Tai's part.  I'm not actually mad at Tai in this thing;  I do NOT think she's a sexual predator.  I'm not sure who said that first, but i think the term is WAY, WAY out of nowhere.  Like I said before, I'm just mad at Dora, no one else. 

Finally: this conversation has officially sucked all the fun out of this still very fun comic, so I think I'll bow out now, except maybe to answer any responses to anything I've said. 

[Loki]

Likely that they'll both be embarrassed and that's about the end of it.

You know, that's probably not true.  Marigold might call Dora and Faye out on not "warning" here, in fact, I hope she does. I know this sounds extremely unempathic, but dealing with such a conflict situation might provide some character development for both Mar (general social skills, yaddayadda) and Dora (in terms of realizing that she sometimes has double standards).

Also, Marigold might just "randomly" run into Dale while she is all pissed, Dale might comfort here and then (add your own thoughts about the two here).


On another note, I fear Jeph will leave us with some kind of cliffhanger over the weekend.

[Akima]

In short, Dora seemed to refuse to accept that Hanners could be aware of what she was asking for, and acted like she had to stand up for her because Sven is just so terrible, yet when she sees Marigold miss cues from a person whose intentions aren't always so awesome either, she keeps her mouth shut because she's just so doe-eyed about the possibilities.

Yes, and Dora's condemned for both! She's apparently a bad person for trying to protect Hanners (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into) and a bad person for not trying to protect Marigold (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into). This doesn't make much sense unless those condemning Dora think Tai is more dangerous, or toxic, or something than Sven. I'm not sure if it is homophobia, or just the traditional more indulgent attitude to male sexual misconduct than female, or what, but something feels out of balance to me.

[AnAverageWriter]

Finally: this conversation has officially sucked all the fun out of this still very fun comic, so I think I'll bow out now, except maybe to answer any responses to anything I've said. 

I'm sorry.

I enjoy a good hearty debate-type conversation. I'm new here, so I had no idea I was assisting in draining the fun from your enjoyment of the comic. Again, I truly apologize, it was certainly not my intention to do so.

[westrim]

My god some people take the comic too seriously! And some people have very limited and deluded views on life. Worrying. The outcome of the arc? Likely that they'll both be embarrassed and that's about the end of it. Tai might be more promiscuous than most, but it's not like she does it in a "inevitably gonna hurt people but don't care" sort of way. She's pretty straight up and decent, and just cause it's different to what society deems the norm, some conceive it as rotten and twisted, when it's just different. *sighs*

Taking it seriously is half the fun! The other half is arguing about it. And the other half is trying to guess where the story will turn and then arguing about that. Its a lot of halves ,that's why this board is so loopy.

It's not because Tai is gay. It has nothing to do with her homosexuality.

Maybe... Maybe not. Comparing the responses from some here to Dora's trying to interfere in the Sven/Hanners date (that Dora was a dick and a bad person), and to her not interfering in this Tai/Marigold thing (that Dora was a dick and a bad person), I'm not so sure that there isn't a double-standard being applied. Neither Sven nor Tai has an exactly exemplary record in personal relationships (and Sven can't even play the youth card*). Both have a record of putting their desires first, seduction, manipulation, two-timing etc. Marigold is no more vulnerable than Hanners (as far as we know, Marigold isn't under psychiatric care), and no more deserving of protection.

No, just not. It's because she's hitting on her. A guy acting the same would get a similar reaction.

stuff

Wow, you're almost as bad as me with length. Almost.  

What I see her doing is exploring a shared interest with someone she's acquainted with, leading to a nice dinner conversation and an invitation back to her new friends place. Tai's not going after her because she's naive or inexperienced or because she might be easy. If Tai were taking advantage of Marigold's inexperience, that would be predatory, and I wouldn't approve of that. But Tai is just going with the flow here, being spontaneous, and trying to expand her own social circle. A while ago she was saying that she couldn't find anyone in her current circle that was interested in a serious relationship with her, so she steps out of that circle and suddenly she's a predator?

Okay, you're being even more clueless than Marigold. I though you had figured that Tai was hitting on Marigold after after your last post, but I guess not. YES Tai is hitting on her- how is that even debatable? What it means is what's debatable- to me it doesn't mean she's a predator, just promiscuous, which we already knew about her.

The reason this seems like homophobia to me is because many people are reacting like "Marigold, get away from Tai! Don't you know you might catch TEH GAY!?!?! Run!!!!!"

While that may not rise to the level of Arkansas school board homophobia, It's homophobia nevertheless. It is precisely BECAUSE I expect more from the netizens of this board that I'm calling it as I see it.

  That's annoying. Now I'm getting angry. I tend to do that when people insinuate I'm a homophobe even after I've explained how wrong they are. To recap: the issue is NOT "OMG Mari, don't catch teh gay!!!"  it's that Marigold is socially awkward and clueless, and her alleged friends just let her walk off into a misunderstanding that is quite likely to blow up and hurt Marigold, however strong some think she is. It would be just as bad if it were some dude. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TAI'S ORIENTATION. Get it now? Damn!

Jeez my head hurts. I'm going to stop reading now. No wait, 2 more.

I don't have time to respond to every individual statement, but if you find yourself thinking "I'm not being Homophobic, am I?" you might want to think some more

The thought never crossed my mind. What did was "god it's fucking annoying to get called a homophobe just for saying that a person who happens to be a lesbian hitting on a straight chick with severe issues is likely to cause said straight chick much angst, which could have been easily avoided with a simple fucking heads up from a person who is allegedly her friend but is willing to let the angst happen because she likes the match up"

Sven is (or was) a cad. Tai is a lesbian. Dora disapproves of cads, therefore she should....

NO. Sven is promiscuous, Tai is promiscuous, and Dora should let her friends know what the fuck is up instead of making googly eyes.

Now go away and take your damn accus- and insinuations with you. I'm going to sleep. Maybe Chymes has a point.

[mickcheese]

Who's getting hurt? When and how? Tai MIGHT make a serious pass at Mari and Mari will most likely rebuff that advance the same way EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET HAS MADE A FAILED PASS AT SOMEONE OR HAD TO REBUFF SOMEONE'S ADVANCES.

Remember how the failed pass was traumatic to her?  Being passed at (for lack of a better term) unexpectedly could make Marigold very wary about creeping outside her little bubble, because she has no way to tell how what she says is being construed.  This being the case, she might think it's better not to try to make friends anymore, because look what happens.  It's not that Tai means any offense, obviously.

She's going to have to get out there eventually and she's going to have to deal with some uncomfortableness. It's part of the whole experience. If she does hold up in her apartment after this than I would hope her friends would go drag her out of it again and explain to her that life is full of surprises. both pleasant and unpleasant and part of being a big girl is dealing with it.

It has NOTHING to do with homophobia, and I really don't think that's a word that should be thrown around so casually.

When you bandy about words like accosted and traumatized because a lesbian MIGHT make a pass at a straight girl you start looking fairly homophobic.

I think you've misconstrued what I meant.  In my life, "accosted" is just a term I use when you jump someone's bones.

I certainly did misconstrue what you meant. To me accosted is an action with an implied level of hostility. I've never heard it used in the manner you explained above and it explains quite a bit since I felt that came out of nowhere.

And just for clarification (just in case) I have never implied any sort of predatory nature on Tai's part.  I'm not actually mad at Tai in this thing;  I do NOT think she's a sexual predator.  I'm not sure who said that first, but i think the term is WAY, WAY out of nowhere.  Like I said before, I'm just mad at Dora, no one else.

I'm the first one who brought the words sexual predator into this thread and I brought it up to say that she WASN'T that in response to my (apparently mistaken) interpretation of your post and and one other that suggested that Tai would "take advantage of" Mari.

Finally: this conversation has officially sucked all the fun out of this still very fun comic, so I think I'll bow out now, except maybe to answer any responses to anything I've said. 

Sorry. That wasn't my intent.

[Schmorgluck]

Marigold invited her over to show her what is, essentially, porn.

No.

Just no.

[Mr_Rose]

In short, Dora seemed to refuse to accept that Hanners could be aware of what she was asking for, and acted like she had to stand up for her because Sven is just so terrible, yet when she sees Marigold miss cues from a person whose intentions aren't always so awesome either, she keeps her mouth shut because she's just so doe-eyed about the possibilities.

Yes, and Dora's condemned for both! She's apparently a bad person for trying to protect Hanners (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into) and a bad person for not trying to protect Marigold (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into). This doesn't make much sense unless those condemning Dora think Tai is more dangerous, or toxic, or something than Sven. I'm not sure if it is homophobia, or just the traditional more indulgent attitude to male sexual misconduct than female, or what, but something feels out of balance to me.

Protection isn't the problem; it's decision making and the lack of it.
Dora was pilloried for interfering with Hannelore's decision because she kept doing so even after it was clear that Hanners had made one. Faye on the other hand simply made sure Hanners knew what she was doing then, as soon as it was clear she had the relevant info, shut up.
Here, Dora is actively withholding information that Marigold needs in order to make a decision (specifically that Tai is a known letch, just like Sven in a way, but vastly more tolerated because we and the other characters don't really know anyone she's been with personally) and so is once again interfering in other peoples' decision making.

Basically, Dora wasn't letting Hannelore make her own decision then and she isn't giving Marigold even the opportunity to make one here. Totally consistent.

[no one special]

Awwww you guys are so nice!  I didn't mean that it was YOUR FAULT that I wasn't having fun, I just... I dunno, maybe I just realized that I was getting a little too worked up. 

I'll be fine tomorrow   

But it's super-cool of y'all to be all 'mea culpa' when you didn't have to be.  But seriously, it's my deal, not yours.

[mickcheese]

Awwww you guys are so nice!  I didn't mean that it was YOUR FAULT that I wasn't having fun, I just... I dunno, maybe I just realized that I was getting a little too worked up. 

I'll be fine tomorrow   

But it's super-cool of y'all to be all 'mea culpa' when you didn't have to be.  But seriously, it's my deal, not yours.

I think we all got a little too worked up.

Also, I looked up accost. The meaning I read:
Accost: Approach (someone) with hostility or harmful intent.

What you meant:
Accost: (of  prostitutes,  procurers,  etc.)  to  solicit  for  sexual  purposes.

Both dictionary correct, but I'll take the hit for not knowing both versions before posting. It seems this was a misunderstanding. Apologies.

[srpilha]

my, such interesting (albeit heated) discussions.

I just wanted to say I very much liked akronnick's comments on the possibility that same-sex advances don't need to be a horrible thing if one is not gay. I believe that is an important point here, as it plays a big part in Marigold's (potential) response to whatever Tai does.

Also, and without developing too much, I personally don't see Tai as all that harmful, despite all the not-nice things she's done in the past. Not casting any first stones here - plus, I've seen far worse, and with deliberately worse intentions. I don't think Tai has (or has had) harmful intentions, and that counts for something at least.

And finally:

According to your logic, guys who watch porn together want to fuck each-other's brains out.

Oh, but they do. 

[Dr. ROFLPWN]

I generally agree with Mr_Rose on the whole this-is-Dora-and-her-control-of-others'-decisions kick that's getting her flak--however, I ain't gonna give the purple-haired one flak, because I think she doesn't have all the information either.

Sven is a known quantity, both for Dora and the others. They have been involved in watching someone get burned by his promiscuity, and Dora suffered from his promiscuity personally. Sven has warning telltales all over him for the gang. But Tai? Her promiscuity and sexual aggressiveness have caused, so far, only hilarious antics. Dora sees her as "the cute poly lesbian who hits on me sometimes", not "potential threat." Tai also plays the poly card, whereas Sven didn't and doesn't.

So I think we shouldn't blame Dora if Tai does something fucked-up. If Tai does something fucked, that is on her and her alone. Blame the victimizer, not the victim or the victim's friends.

THAT BEING SAID, this could turn out hilarious (Tai sits on the bed hot-and-bothered and irritated as Mari regales her with Bleach shipping vignettes) or even have a GOOD END:

(Tai and Marigold are reading something with two ladies, Mar-bear's face is red)

Tai: You okay? You're blushing pretty hard there...

Mari: I...I just...The way you write Haruka and Michiru...So much...Detail...I...I wish...

Tai: *leans in close* Wish what? That you could write like that? Oooor, maybe, that...you knew what that felt like...?

Marigold: *small squeaky voice* Y-y-yes...

Tai: *seductively, hand where it shouldn't be* I can show you.

Mari: *huge blush whimper* Y-you c-c-can?

Tai: Well, you mentioned I get into the characters' heads...and I kinda write what I know... *wicked smirk, nibble neck*

Mari: ohgodtakemenowHaruka-sama

Momo: *is blissfully unaware and probably dreaming of robo-Sven*

[YourMaster]

Yes, and Dora's condemned for both! She's apparently a bad person for trying to protect Hanners (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into) and a bad person for not trying to protect Marigold (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into). This doesn't make much sense unless those condemning Dora think Tai is more dangerous, or toxic, or something than Sven. I'm not sure if it is homophobia, or just the traditional more indulgent attitude to male sexual misconduct than female, or what, but something feels out of balance to me.

No, I think you're missing the point Moxie was making.  In both cases, Dora is denying agency to her friends.  She's basically engaging in that indulgent attitude you refer to, only instead of strictly males, she's inclined to indulge sexually aggressive people but god forbid a shy person be given the information to make a decision for themselves.  Although frankly don't think it's really fair to Tai either.  She's being lead on, and it isn't Marigold's fault -- honest misunderstanding -- but Dora had the power to end it.

When Hannelore intentionally initiates a (pretend) date, Dora tried to prevent it.  When Marigold accidentally initiates a date, Dora does not try to prevent it.  The common factor here is that Dora is acting against her friends' wishes (whether explicit or implicit).  It's not the worst thing in the world, I just think it's kind of mean.

[squishything]

As a student of media studies, I'd never accuse anyone of "reading too deeply" into a given situation, an accusation I've seen bandied about particularly frequently in this scenario. I would, however, say that it's a bad idea to, well, read things that just aren't there.

It's discursively irresponsible to define Tai's character as being manipulative, a user, or someone who objectifies people she's attracted to as 'toys'. She's certainly playful, tactile and forward, but this isn't something that relates only to her sexuality, it's just how she interacts with the world in general.

The only glimpse we've gotten of her love life so far has been through her own recounts of it. Inevitably, when we tell stories about our own love lives, our own thoughts, motivations and feelings tend to be the focus. Of course Tai -sounds- selfish, we've never seen her in a romantic context other than her own drama-laden stories, or as a flirt. There's nothing there to say that she's any more selfish than any one of the girls at Smif she's been having all that 'drama' with, or even the main group.  She just happens to spend most of her time in a context in which casual sexuality is the social norm. I'm not saying that she's definitely -not- selfish in relationships, but at this point, we just haven't seen enough of her in this context to be sure. I'm actually pretty interested in this little interaction with Mar, it's the first time we'll actually see Tai in what she assumes is a romantic scenario.

[Border Reiver]

Sets up lawnchair near the railyard, sits down, opens cooler.


"Anyone want a beer?  Show's about to start.  Plenty of good spots left." 

Checks his wristwatch, "Yes, the Friday special should be coming on quick."

This will nto end well - Marigold will be beating herself up for some time for not being able to understand the situation, no matter how it turns out.  No one like to think of themselves as that naive, but it happens.

[westrim]

*breathes* Okay, I think I've cooled down a little. Sleep does that. Though not enough sleep

In short, Dora seemed to refuse to accept that Hanners could be aware of what she was asking for, and acted like she had to stand up for her because Sven is just so terrible, yet when she sees Marigold miss cues from a person whose intentions aren't always so awesome either, she keeps her mouth shut because she's just so doe-eyed about the possibilities.

Yes, and Dora's condemned for both! She's apparently a bad person for trying to protect Hanners (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into) and a bad person for not trying to protect Marigold (whom Dora believed didn't know what she was getting into). This doesn't make much sense unless those condemning Dora think Tai is more dangerous, or toxic, or something than Sven. I'm not sure if it is homophobia, or just the traditional more indulgent attitude to male sexual misconduct than female, or what, but something feels out of balance to me.

No one is saying she's a bad person (really, where are you pulling that from?), but she does make mistakes and a friend is quite likely to be hurt right now because of one of them. /a bit off topic There was zero reason to think Hanners had no idea what was up, as Hannelore told her and as Dora knew; the only reason she was opposed was because it was Sven. If it was Steve, she would have laughed and said have fun. /back on topic As for Marigold, again, the problem is she let her personal desires get in the way of helping a friend realize what was up. The comparison point here is NOT Tai/Sven, it's Hannelore/Marigold. Hannelore knew what was up (and to make it  bleedingly clear, was the one that initiated it), Marigold does not. even if it were about Sven/Tai Sven had a lot more character development towards becoming less promiscuous than Tai has, not to mention a lot more mutual information about Hannelore than Tai does about Marigold. It's hard to compare the two and think that they are in any way of equal concern (so yes, I guess Sven is "less dangerous").

TL;DR It's about Marigold and Hannelore, not Sven and Tai, and Sven has come a long way from being after anything with a vagina- Tai hasn't.

Finally: this conversation has officially sucked all the fun out of this still very fun comic, so I think I'll bow out now, except maybe to answer any responses to anything I've said.  

I'm sorry.
I enjoy a good hearty debate-type conversation. I'm new here, so I had no idea I was assisting in draining the fun from your enjoyment of the comic. Again, I truly apologize, it was certainly not my intention to do so.

Sorry. That wasn't my intent.

It's not specifically your faults, it's the accusations that started getting flung around about people's personal beliefs with zero backing. You just happened to be on the side that started doing that. Don't paint yourself with the same brush. Let's just slide past this rough spot so we can all get along again.

I generally agree with Mr_Rose on the whole this-is-Dora-and-her-control-of-others'-decisions kick that's getting her flak--however, I ain't gonna give the purple-haired one flak, because I think she doesn't have all the information either.

Sven is a known quantity, both for Dora and the others. They have been involved in watching someone get burned by his promiscuity, and Dora suffered from his promiscuity personally. Sven has warning telltales all over him for the gang. But Tai? Her promiscuity and sexual aggressiveness have caused, so far, only hilarious antics. Dora sees her as "the cute poly lesbian who hits on me sometimes", not "potential threat." Tai also plays the poly card, whereas Sven didn't and doesn't.

So I think we shouldn't blame Dora if Tai does something fucked-up. If Tai does something fucked, that is on her and her alone. Blame the victimizer, not the victim or the victim's friends.

Does anyone actually think that Tai is going to do something fucked up? I expect her to be in full antics mode, only for Marigold to finally get what's going on and recoil in surprise. But I presume the antics and realization will come verbally, not physically, and it is evident that Dora expects antics as well.



The whole idea that Marigold somehow has to go through trauma/ some less intense term, so Dora was right not to inform her, is a little weird to me. The first comparison that came to my mind is warning someone of the car in front of them so they don't hit it. Do they really have to hit the car to get the lesson? And lets not forget, it's only recently that Marigold started driving (to stretch an analogy).

[raoullefere]

I'm very interested in how Tai responds to that last sentence of Marigold's. That's going to show us something very definite about Tai.

Then we can all have at it again. I haven't seen the (Weekly Comic Dick Talk? My god, I can't remember why the D is there) weekly going at it like this for a while.

While I'm one of her detractors, I do have to admit we don't know Tai is selfish and inconsiderate—she simply plays herself like that fairly often, if you know what I mean. It's very possible she thinks it's funny. Any road,  I don't think telling Tai to back off Hannelore when she's specifically discussing pursuing Hanners, who might end up stabbing Tai (or something less traumtic, like flailing the crap out of her), is quite the same thing as watching Tai go with Marigold's flow. Whoever pointed it out is correct: Dora doesn't take Tai seriously (that may be a serious error, but, again, even we don't really know that yet, and our perspective is far more god-like than Dora's). Marigold is simply a shut-in, not (again, so far as we know) the psycho-beast Hanners is. It probably seems like a good idea for her to interact with people to get over that. If in a week or so we cut to Marigold's room and behold Tai's lifeless corpse, a USB drive jutting from her eye socket and a torx wrench shoved through her chest, Dora and we will all know differently.

[Dr. ROFLPWN]

I am probably the only person who thinks Tai might pull some fucked-up, repugnant shit, which would be in character with how we've seen her act at times.

Then again, I have to recognize my own bias.'I have never forgiven Tai for her creeptastic hitting on Dora, and her statements re: happy batter did nothing to endear her further.

I also don't think Jeph is going to do a date-rape arc, so my worries are unfounded.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Tai seducing Mari. It shows not only Sven has the chops, the initial bond is hilarious, there's drama potential, and it's better than yet another failed start for poor Marigold.

And they could use the alphabet trick to give each other fabric ideas. Match made in heaven.

[Mr_Rose]

Then we can all have at it again. I haven't seen the (Weekly Comic Dick Talk? My god, I can't remember why the D is there) weekly going at it like this for a while.

Once, long ago, there were the Weekly Comic Threads (or talks, some were unclear on this but at least shared the right letter). Then the Usurpers came, with their Weekly Comic Discussions and for a time there was Strife.
Then, one day, someone whose name is lost to the mists of time proposed an ecumenical solution: The Weekly Comic Discussion Thread. The rest is, as they say... ...history.

[westrim]

Then we can all have at it again. I haven't seen the (Weekly Comic Dick Talk? My god, I can't remember why the D is there) weekly going at it like this for a while.

Once, long ago, there were the Weekly Comic Threads (or talks, some were unclear on this but at least shared the right letter). Then the Usurpers came, with their Weekly Comic Discussions and for a time there was Strife.
Then, one day, someone whose name is lost to the mists of time proposed an ecumenical solution: The Weekly Comic Discussion Thread. The rest is, as they say... ...history.

YEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

I'm sorry, but someone was gonna do it and I've never done it before.   Ow, ow, enough with the flaying!

[jwhouk]

Wow. Just, wow. 

[tbones]

HI! this is my first post, long time reader, yadda yadda yadda (Excuse my horrible english, it's not my main language )

and i only wanted to say this very little thing:
LESBIAN SEEEEEEEEXXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH!

There, finnally i got it off my chest.