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[the_scotsman]

Hey all. First post on these forums, because I didn't realize they existed until now.

I just recently got into QC, reading the whole comic in the space of 2 weeks, finishing just a few days ago, and right now, I'm kind of on the edge of my seat about the whole Dora thing. Dora is one of my favorite characters in QC, mostly because like Marten and Faye, she seems to have a fairly complex history, as well as an interesting, multilayered personality. Marten and Dora's relationship is probably the one I'm most happy with in QC, because their personalities seem so compatible most of the time, and after so many comics I was just glad that Marten had finally gotten over faye and moved on. (Yes. I'm a guy. Yes, I take things too seriously, this is a comic strip. I have girl-frustration empathy.)

On the forums recently, I see a lot of posts that are expressing hope that marten and Dora will break up, as well as removing dora from the strip entirely. The latter, I feel would be a mistake, mostly because she's one of the few complex characters in QC that we haven't really seen the story behind. She has unresolved troubles below the surface we know nothing about.

As for the former, I have to say this is the one time I can't get behind Marten. It seems like he's frustrated, and he may well break up with Dora. I'd be really, really disappointed in him if he did.

In a relationship, it is absolutely key to discuss things that come between you when you are thinking rationally and are prepared to have a calm discussion. Marten is, right now, understandably frustrated, but he shouldn't rush into things. At this point, Dora's mood is not really known, when she left she was angry, but resigned, not an optimal discussing mood either. They both need to calm down, and talk about the real root of the problem. I would say that for the most part, the root of the problem is Marten's frustration with Dora's frequent overreaction, something Dora has noticed and apologized for many times. They need to talk about why dora feels this way, and actively try to work out a solution.  Marten does not need to dump Dora, not yet. He needs to try reason, and he needs to try and feel a bit of empathy for Dora. Obviously there are many unresolved issues they need to work through. Join me in advocating for a little bit of human dignity in this string of depressing strips. Thanks for your time.

[Martinet]

People breakup. People move on. You never learn some people's story.

human decency, lol

[mustang6172]

Human decency?  They're not real!

Take a mental step back and consider that you are only reading a cartoon.

[akronnick]

If Marten and Dora break up it's more likely that he'd leave than she would.

Just sayin'.

[Is it cold in here?]

If we can't be decent toward imaginary people, who can't affect us, how can we be decent to real people?

[ajchimaera]

If we can't be decent toward imaginary people, who can't affect us, how can we be decent to real people?

This. Well said indeed.
Indeed, we are not concerned here with real people in the strictest sense, but it is after all a "slice of life" comic, set in a relatively realistic environment, with characters that can be related to on an empathic level. That is what makes it such a popular comic, and a reasonably deep-seated interest for myself and a great many others.

But that aside, much as I agree with the OP about what would be the most reasonable course of action, sticking with the concept of these being realistic characters, those who are embroiled in such emotional turmoil rarely act in a reasonable manner. Hopefully they will take some time apart to cool off, to enable them to clear their heads and think reasonably to overcome their difficulties.
Personally I think we can trust Jeph to finish this arc in a manner that is suitable for the characters. We would not be showing much respect to his art if we thought otherwise, really. We may not like completely the direction this ultimately takes - I for one started shifting in my seat as he led D & M into another volatile situation - but he continues to develop his characters in the way he sees fit to, and I am fairly sure that he knows what he is doing (sort of ) and more to the point knows his characters much better than our presumptions.

[mustang6172]

I'll keep that in mind next time I'm playing a first person shooter.

In fact, next time I play Duck Hunt, I'll stop to ask why I need so many ducks.  Why don't I just shoot that laughing dog, he seems like an ass?

[eyosgkxb]

[Radical AC]

I'll keep that in mind next time I'm playing a first person shooter.

In fact, next time I play Duck Hunt, I'll stop to ask why I need so many ducks.  Why don't I just shoot that laughing dog, he seems like an ass?

When I play Grand Theft Auto I always obey all the traffic laws and am courteous to strangers.  I'm a rebel.

[Odal]

To be honest, I'm happy with how the storyline is going.  I like QC because it's easy to relate to, but there's always been one thing that bugs me about it, and that's how there never seems to be permanent damage.  No matter what happened, people would always come to their senses and it doesn't always work out like that in real life..  Often two friends can have one big argument and never talk to each other again.  I've experienced it, and it's the way life goes.

But in QC, everything that has been damaged between characters has been repaired.  At least temporarily (as we now learn).  What's tough for Jeph is that he can't just eliminate any of the main characters without getting a lot of his fans angry.  So there may be a split between Marten's and Dora's stories at least for a little while, but I really hope Dora and Marten don't go back to the way they were, as that would further feed the unrealistic utopia that I don't like in the storyline.  But I definitely think Dora should NOT be removed from the strip.  And this situation would also be another chance to bring different people from the story into the spotlight or bring in new characters (though the strip has enough characters as it is, imo).

[Kalos]

If we can't be decent toward imaginary people, who can't affect us, how can we be decent to real people?

...seriously? If you're going to be preachy, at least make sense.

If I can't be decent towards an imaginary person who can't affect me, how can I be decent to real people? Because they're real. They have feelings, ambitions, hopes, dreams. There's consequences for the way I treat them, their life matters (if not to me, than to someone). Marten, Dora and Faye are blobs of pixels, abstract ways of displaying binary information. If I call them an asshole on the internet, they're not going to care, because they're incapable of caring, because they're fictional characters.

[Ettore]

If we can't be decent toward imaginary people, who can't affect us, how can we be decent to real people?

...seriously? If you're going to be preachy, at least make sense.

If I can't be decent towards an imaginary person who can't affect me, how can I be decent to real people? Because they're real. They have feelings, ambitions, hopes, dreams. There's consequences for the way I treat them, their life matters (if not to me, than to someone). Marten, Dora and Faye are blobs of pixels, abstract ways of displaying binary information. If I call them an asshole on the internet, they're not going to care, because they're incapable of caring, because they're fictional characters.

I may be wrong, but I think you wouldn't be able to write anything good.

Fortunately, QC characters are more to Jeph than just characters.

Cheers

[Ettore]

There is a huge difference between being able to appreciate and care about a well-written character and pretending that the character is actually a person.

You use the words "[they're] more than … just characters". Whether you're aware of it or not, the word "just" there kind of betrays your own narrow view of what a character constitutes! Rather than a fictional entity that can be emotionally evocative in its own right, it's just a flat thing you can't care about, so you have to elevate characters to the status of actual human beings when you are moved by them. Which I think is pretty silly! There is a clear distinction between a character and a human being in real life - human beings can be communicated with, and act independently of any author or creator.

That said, I disagree with Kalos as well. I think a fictional character actually can have feelings, ambitions, hopes and dreams (these are, after all, some pretty key traits of human beings, which human characters need to possess to seem genuine), but they exist in a fictional universe that can only be affected by the author. What we say about them in the real world is completely irrelevant to them, unless Jeph introduces to the comic a narrator that explains to Marten that he is a fictional character.

How many things you did deduce from my two-liner...

Apparently we agree.
"Just characters" was my way to describe Kalos's "technicism": emotional involvement is essential both to the artist and the reader.
Failing to achieve that bonding is failing to confer urgency to your art.

Cheers

[muffin_of_chaos]

Fictional characters that we have absolutely no interaction with don't deserve (per se) "human decency."  We can pretend that they're real people that might in some possible way be influenced by something that we say about them, but I'm not sure why.

The characters are "flawed" archetypes, they're a mirror of society and relationships reflected from Jeph's mind in an angle he chooses.  The characters are incredibly valuable to us as fractal bits of the story gestalt.  Not being able to see that value, diminishing them to snapshots of real people (who aren't written to provide contrast to reality and are too complex to be relateable to the masses), is in my opinion a mistake.

Being able to dissect them and the story, to mess around in writing with how we feel about them and compare such thoughts with others, seems like an opportunity that sucks to be wasted.  As long as people are civil and open-minded--and sometimes if they aren't, if they don't cross some line--being respectful in our discussions of the characters as if they're real to us shouldn't be necessary, even if at times it might be ideal.

[Ettore]

Fictional characters that we have absolutely no interaction with don't deserve (per se) "human decency."  We can pretend that they're real people that might in some possible way be influenced by something that we say about them, but I'm not sure why.

The characters are "flawed" archetypes, they're a mirror of society and relationships reflected from Jeph's mind in an angle he chooses.  The characters are incredibly valuable to us as fractal bits of the story gestalt.  Not being able to see that value, diminishing them to snapshots of real people (who aren't written to provide contrast to reality and are too complex to be relateable to the masses), is in my opinion a mistake.

Being able to dissect them and the story, to mess around in writing with how we feel about them and compare such thoughts with others, seems like an opportunity that sucks to be wasted.  As long as people are civil and open-minded--and sometimes if they aren't, if they don't cross some line--being respectful in our discussions of the characters as if they're real to us shouldn't be necessary, even if at times it might be ideal.

I bet you like Bertold Brecht very much...

Well, i prefer Shakespeare, as I prefer life over judgement.

This does not mean that life cannot deliver judgement, of course. But firstly, it's life.

A character CAN be a mirror over society and reletionships, and, really, if they are "alive" they somehow will be, because the reader will project is own judgement over them.

But there are authors to whom their characters are only that mirror. A mere result of their technical skills in writing. I see that in your words (I can be wrong).

Still not being a romantic and not losing the focus over the awereness and the expertise necessary for his work, Jeph writes "Doesn't make it any less sad for me to post, though".

And I think that if he didn't feel that way, maybe the last two panels in today's comic wouldn't have been so sad to me, too.

P.S.:
I haven't spoken (or written) English for a long time, my syntax used to be better. My apologies.

Cheers

[the_scotsman]

Well spoken, some of you.

Personally, I see today's comment as more of an Artaudian moment, if we're getting into that sort of thing, as well as the comic as a whole. It really doesn't work if the reader doesn't empathize with the characters.

That said, in retrospect I don't see how this could have gone either way. Dora's storming out wasn't a reaction to marten's frustration, it was a realization that this had to end, and she had to do it. I've had relationships like that before, and I can understand that. That's what makes this comic (see, folks? It's called literary catharsis. Not everybody who enjoys reading fiction is living in a delusional world. Now go back to your grand theft auto.) hard for me to read.  because I've lived it, and it brings up tough memories.

well, I hope we're all ready for a whooole string of really depressing comic strips, because unless some other girl falls from the sky, Marten's got zero prospects for a decent relationship, we're gonna have several strips of Dora moving out, probably a few of various characters getting all teary, probably more of faye and that asshole from the store (joy. I love him as a love interest.) and it'll be forever until pintsize or marigold lightens the mood a little bit.

good day all.

[Ettore]

Well spoken, some of you.

Personally, I see today's comment as more of an Artaudian moment, if we're getting into that sort of thing, as well as the comic as a whole. It really doesn't work if the reader doesn't empathize with the characters.

That said, in retrospect I don't see how this could have gone either way. Dora's storming out wasn't a reaction to marten's frustration, it was a realization that this had to end, and she had to do it. I've had relationships like that before, and I can understand that. That's what makes this comic (see, folks? It's called literary catharsis. Not everybody who enjoys reading fiction is living in a delusional world. Now go back to your grand theft auto.) hard for me to read.  because I've lived it, and it brings up tough memories.

well, I hope we're all ready for a whooole string of really depressing comic strips, because unless some other girl falls from the sky, Marten's got zero prospects for a decent relationship, we're gonna have several strips of Dora moving out, probably a few of various characters getting all teary, probably more of faye and that asshole from the store (joy. I love him as a love interest.) and it'll be forever until pintsize or marigold lightens the mood a little bit.

good day all.

Have you really cited Artaud in your post?
I'm all wet, now.

Cheers

[Rozparovac]

As a longtime reader (since 2004-ish), I have frequently applauded Jeph's tastes and style. The plot of the comic is placed in a semi-plausible environment with entirely sympathetic characters, which offers a massive variety of opportunities for original and unique events. Not only has Jeph proven that he has the capacity for creating such an environment, but he has also taken advantage of the situation to create events that are simultaneously escapist from and resonant with Real Life. For these reasons, I am somewhat disappointed with the apparent direction of the current story arc, and I am doubly disappointed at reading how many appear to urge the plot in this direction. The disappointment stems not necessarily from an emotional gut reaction, but more at the fact that the idea of ending the Dora/Marten relationship in this manner is incredibly boring.

One of the most abused methods of creating a dynamic storyline is to break up the main relationship, simply because it's superficially different from what came before. Unfortunately, this method has become so common that it's now formulaic:

[Boy Y] + [Girl X] = Happy
[Boy Y + What Boy Y wants but Girl X doesn't] + [Girl X] = Tension
[Boy Y] + [Girl X + What Girl X wants but Boy Y doesn't] = Tension
[Boy y] + [Girl X] + [Argument] = Breakup

The problem with this formula is that the sources of tension are, frankly, selfish. Arguments are caused by the fact that one member of the relationship doesn't do exactly what the other wants. There's an argument, everybody gives up, and the couple splits according to the theory of You Don't Do What I Want Anyway. There's no discussion, no growth, no personal change or responsibility whatsoever - there's just the most obvious way out of the situation. Most boring stories take that option because it is obvious, and it's not what I expect from Jeph.

Some other webcomics offer examples of relationships that don't take this route, and the relationships (not to mention the comics) are much the better for it. The relationships between Otra & Winter (http://girlyyy.com/), for example, or that between Brent & Jade (http://www.pvponline.com/), demonstrate the incredible variety of stories that can come out of relationships. Fictional relationships reflect real relationships in this manner: interesting and successful couples choose solutions that enable both parties to grow simultaneously, that also enable the relationship itself to strengthen. By refusing the limited choice artificially imposed by the You Don't Do What I Want Anyway theory when faced with difficulty, the stories behind these relationships explore new realms of individual and coupled being. So far, Jeph and QC have been interesting and successful. Resorting to the most obvious option is rather below their caliber.

Concerning the argument regarding the desire to make QC more realistic, dynamic options do offer realistic and sympathetic scenarios. In a sense, I can understand where the argument gets its steam: so many real people in viable relationships adopt the YDDWIWA theory that it's almost an essential part of the American culture. Movies and TV shows bombard their audiences with this theory, even if the stories behind these works rarely stand out as classics. Stories that choose to refuse the theory can be considered escapist because they are opposed to the vast majority of popular entertainment. While I recognize the argument that the theory is a driving force behind popular entertainment, I cannot respect it: QC has transcended the bounds of trendiness, and very very very (very) few classics - if any - adhere to artificially limited choice. The very nature of personal responsibility is the development of the self - in the case of a couple, the development of the shared self - and this is a far more interesting a drive behind stories than is YDDWIWA.

[Carl-E]

Rozparovac,

You've analysed this very effectively, and it's also why I don't really think the comic's headed in that direction - well, not ultimately.  The scenario you give (YDDWIWA) is roughly what's playing out in Dora's head, and she's now actualizing it. 

I think Marten's going to make the effort to get her out of the script she's written, and it will probably take a good bit of doing, and some help from others.  Sven's there, and I think he'll actually be of great assistance. 

I'm avoiding the WCDT these days, so I hope no one minds such thoughts in these other threads! 

[peterh]

I think it's safe to say that this is not a case of YDDWIWA, but rather ICBWIWMTB (I Can't Be What I Want Me To Be) on Dora's part.

Marten should have realised that he cannot help her to fix this - he's too much of a stakeholder. Someone to guide Dora in resolving her issues should be someone neutral... someone who has no vested interests in this relationship.
The most Marten can do is tell Dora that she has to do it herself - but that she hasn't got to do it alone.

Sven could play an instrumental role in getting Dora to that point, but he can't be her guide. Dora needs Corinne Buenvenida as much as anyone now. Whether or not she wants Marten to persevere is another matter.

[Is it cold in here?]

My wife points out that fictional characters can be used for practicing decency so you can do it on people who exist in our universe.

[Kalos]

If we can't be decent toward imaginary people, who can't affect us, how can we be decent to real people?

...seriously? If you're going to be preachy, at least make sense.

If I can't be decent towards an imaginary person who can't affect me, how can I be decent to real people? Because they're real. They have feelings, ambitions, hopes, dreams. There's consequences for the way I treat them, their life matters (if not to me, than to someone). Marten, Dora and Faye are blobs of pixels, abstract ways of displaying binary information. If I call them an asshole on the internet, they're not going to care, because they're incapable of caring, because they're fictional characters.

I may be wrong, but I think you wouldn't be able to write anything good.

Fortunately, QC characters are more to Jeph than just characters.

Cheers

I'm incapable of writing anything good because I can discern reality from fiction?

I guess it's a good thing I'm not trying to be a writer then, since I don't suffer from any crippling delusions.

[Ettore]

If we can't be decent toward imaginary people, who can't affect us, how can we be decent to real people?

...seriously? If you're going to be preachy, at least make sense.

If I can't be decent towards an imaginary person who can't affect me, how can I be decent to real people? Because they're real. They have feelings, ambitions, hopes, dreams. There's consequences for the way I treat them, their life matters (if not to me, than to someone). Marten, Dora and Faye are blobs of pixels, abstract ways of displaying binary information. If I call them an asshole on the internet, they're not going to care, because they're incapable of caring, because they're fictional characters.

I may be wrong, but I think you wouldn't be able to write anything good.

Fortunately, QC characters are more to Jeph than just characters.

Cheers

I'm incapable of writing anything good because I can discern reality from fiction?

No, because you don't give in to involvement and identification with the character. That's how I see it, of course. Discern reality from fiction is what keeps you from being insane, not from being a writer.

Cheers

[tbones]

human decency?!?!

HA! it's an oxymoron dude!

[IanClark]

Fictional characters are real in the sense that they occupy some corner of our minds when we read them and as such when we empathize with them, their emotions become real in a sense. Really, what needs to be said is show a little human decency toward the people who are genuinely saddened by this arc in the story because they identify with the characters involved, or the story itself. Show a little human decency toward people like me who went through exactly what Marten's going through a few months ago or the people who have been reading QC since the beginning and feel like they're watching two of their best friends fight. Hell, show a little human decency for Jeph, who pours his soul into each and every one of his characters only to come on the forums and see people rip apart one of his creations and call her a piece of shit even though that's not even remotely what he intended.

[the_scotsman]

@Tbones: I love your profile picture, by the way. Seems a strange contrast to your apparent philosophy on life, which I won't challenge here, but I have to say I disagree. If human beings were incapable of decency then we wouldn't have invented a word for it.

@Ettore: If you're being sarcastic, then what's wrong with Artaud? Seemed like a pretty good reference given the topic of conversation. You brought up Brecht, it seemed appropriate to bring out the other end of the spectrum. If not, then... um. I've never before met a woman aroused by the referencing of dead mustachioed men. Maybe sometime we should have a discussion on the finer points of theatrical and literary theory. God, I never thought I'd say that and it'd sound like a come on. It's not, I assure you.

As to everyone else, I'm really enjoying this thread. I'll admit I started out as kind of a whiny bitch there, but this has gotten really interesting and deep. I'd like to hear a little more from someone on the "have common sense, they're not real!" side of the spectrum, and their feelings on literary catharsis and empathy in general. Do you think stories are only meant to be told to convey a moral, or tell a tale? Never to create compelling characters that the reader can draw connections to his or her own life and feel empathy for? You've really never experienced this?

[disaacs]

I think it's safe to say that this is not a case of YDDWIWA, but rather ICBWIWMTB (I Can't Be What I Want Me To Be) on Dora's part.

The irony is that it was Faye's ICBWIWMTB problem that led to Dora and Marten hooking up in the first place.

The double irony is that Faye has actually been moving forward with her life and slowly getting past her ICBWIWMTB syndrome. Dora on the other hand, wouldn't even admit she has a ICBWIWMTB problem until very recently.

[Carl-E]

In fact, that seems to be the only (OK, one of the very few) positive notes of this breakup.  Dora now acknowledges she has a problem. 

Meybe she's known it for a long time, though.  She always was trying to tell Marten that she's got insecurity issues, but I don't think they'd ever led to self sabotage like this before.  Now she has an idea of just how bad it is, and maybe she'll grow some.  She really has been one of the more static characters in the strip. 

And I can't get any f*cking work done. 

[sigh]