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Author Topic: Bickering about bicycles, now with occasional tips about motorised vehicles  (Read 127780 times)

bicostp

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #100 on: 26 Jan 2011, 10:28 »

If I were in charge of things I would mandate that every road car be equipped with a manual transmission and have no electronic driving assists (ABS, traction control, etc), and distracted driving would be a legitimate reason for the police to pull you over. (Or just run you off the road and shoot your tires out if you're caught text-messaging, reading, or doing other activities that require a lot of attention when you're "just driving". Of course such activities are much more difficult when you're changing gears all the time.)

Cars are too easy to drive now. Used to be you had to pay attention to the car itself and the world around you. Now you have all kinds of electronic features that practically drive the car for you: traction control so you don't have to worry about wheel slip, automatic transmissions so you don't have to shift or work a clutch and can stop 50 feet before the stop line at a light and creep the whole time, ABS so people stupidly assume they can follow too close, blind spot warning radar because people are too stupid/lazy to look and car manufacturers are designing massive C pillars exasperating the problem... People are just too complacent about controlling their 3,000 pound battering ram.

Oh and I'm adding "people who creep at stoplights" and "people who merge across multiple lanes of travel without signaling" to my #### you list.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 10:33 by bicostp »
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calenlass

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #101 on: 26 Jan 2011, 10:40 »

That book that Steve linked (it looks pretty good, actually!) mentions these things and the fact that they might contribute to driver complacency, actually.


*sigh* You just can't buy good sextants nowadays.

er
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #102 on: 26 Jan 2011, 10:43 »

'Twas but a joke.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #103 on: 26 Jan 2011, 11:09 »

I hate GPS so much I'm contemplating making a Sean-esque whine thread about them. I think they're incredibly distracting, particularly to already bad drivers with no sense of where they're going or ability to follow signage. I have maps in my car, and I look up internet maps before I make a long drive, or a drive to anywhere I haven't been before. Maps are great! They are great tools for figuring out how to get places. As for not being able to read them while driving, uhhh pull over, look at it for 3 minutes, resume driving!
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #104 on: 26 Jan 2011, 11:21 »

Look at the map in the parking lot of the McDonald's while you are eating your McNuggets.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #105 on: 26 Jan 2011, 11:31 »

I appreciate GPS for going places I don't know or only slightly know the area. I like to look at a map and think I know where I'm going, but the GPS helps me cut down on and deal with the "oh shit that was/wasn't actually my turn, now what?" moments. Especially after the day I drove into SW DC with only a Google directions printout, and turned this into this.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #106 on: 26 Jan 2011, 11:38 »

My favorite thing is the cyclist who thinks he can hang out in the left turn lane in front of other cars.

Actually, I do that deliberately - well, in the right-turn lane in my country, of course.  If I try to leave room for a car, some arsehole will crowd me out, or just not see me.  By asserting my right to a place on the road in such a way that the driver is forced to acknowledge it, I can actually be safer.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #107 on: 26 Jan 2011, 11:55 »

Exactly!
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #108 on: 26 Jan 2011, 11:57 »

SatNavs are great for when you are driving around in a giant-arse campervan in a flooded country you've never seen before in another hemisphere, yeah. I like them for that.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #109 on: 26 Jan 2011, 11:59 »

i don't understand why cyclists can't just ride on the fucking sidewalk

it's like a self-preservation instinct never manifested in 99% of the bikers I see



if I was riding my bike somewhere I would ride as far away as fucking possible from the speeding automobiles because I'm sort of partial to living and/or full use of my limbs/brain
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #110 on: 26 Jan 2011, 12:01 »

i don't understand why cyclists can't just ride on the fucking sidewalk

it's like a self-preservation instinct never manifested in 99% of the bikers I see



if I was riding my bike somewhere I would ride as far away as fucking possible from the speeding automobiles because I'm sort of partial to living and/or full use of my limbs/brain

Because it's dumb and illegal. You know when tons of cycling deaths occur? When people cross the street from the sidewalk on their bicycles. Quite simply, motorists don't watch what is happening on the sidewalks. When you cross from the sidewalk it's like you're materializing from the ether at 12 mph as far as they're concerned. Plus, wide swaths of the country don't even have sidewalks in the US.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 12:05 by Alex C »
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #111 on: 26 Jan 2011, 12:05 »

Yeah I was about to say that but Alex got there first. The pavement is for pedestrians. It is for people who are walking. It is for walking on. There isn't really any way to say that more clearly. The only people who are allowed on it with wheels are people with mobility problems, and people under the age of 8 (or at least that is the legal age limit in the UK). Cycling on the pavement is a shitty thing to do. If you're scared of cycling on the roads, take a bus.

Bad cycling makes me furious because I live in Cambridge, land of the "I just bought this bike but it can't be that hard right" foreign students who don't know anything about the UK road laws, don't wear helmets and wobble all over the place.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #112 on: 26 Jan 2011, 12:06 »

Motorists make me so mad. It really has nothing to do with safety with most people. It really is that most people behind the wheel of a car are thinking "Man, if I wanted to go below 30 mph I wouldn't be in a car, would I!?!" whenever they get stuck behind a bike for even laughably short periods of time.



Scenarios 3, 6 and 7 should explain better where I am coming from here when I say it's bad to be on the sidewalk or too far to the right in narrow lanes.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 12:29 by Alex C »
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #113 on: 26 Jan 2011, 13:37 »

warning: there is alot of bullshit in this post and my browser is really hating the forum right now so I can't spell check the whole thing or even make sure my sentences make sense. Maybe it's finally time to stop using Internet Explorer  :roll:


yeah, sidewalks are for walking, fine. i think that's bullshit but if that's what the law says fine, it's still fuckin dumb.*

but roads are for cars. bikes are not even close to cars and should not be driving down the middle of the road.


my point is that most cyclists (at least around here) are idiots with an absurd sense of entitlement and a sort of "i deserve to be treated just like a car even though I am on a fragile little frame going 25 under the speedlimit on a narrow road with no passing!" attitude which I find really obnoxious and borderline offensive.

and before anyone says it as if it's some kind of counter-argument (it's not): most people in cars are just as big of idiots, if not bigger idiots, than cyclists. that's mostly irrelevent.


it's even worse for me because I live right off a pretty narrow highway that sees alot of semi-truck traffic as well as joggers/cyclists. joggers are legit, they stay as far to the right asthey possibly can and are very  careful and considerate. cyclists are neither of those things and they are usually really rude to boot. i regularly have cyclists make rude hand gestures at me for tailgating them briefly when unable to pass and then quickly moving left and passing by, with plenty of space between us. they're just dicks for no reason, straight up.


semi-related funny anecdote: one time, i was driving down my road out in the middle of nowhere at like 11:00 in the morning, noon maybe. Up ahead there was a motorcycle stopped in the road with his turn signal on. I pulled up behind him and stopped and waited. he pulled into the left lane (oncoming, empty) and stopped again and turned to look over at me (i had my window down), I assumed he was lost and was going to ask directions so I stopped next to him and he's like "ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?!" so I say "um...what?" and this genius says "you're drunk" which was definitely false since it was the fucking morning. So i raised one eyebrow at him, said "thanks," and drove off. Fucking moron.



*it occurs to me that this probably sounds insane to anyone from even a reasonablely sized town/city where there are people everywhere but my town's sidewalks are literally empty 98% of the time. There is no reason not to drive your bike on the sidewalk. And that line about getting hit while crossing the street? idiotic strawman. how about taking a little responsiblility and just NOT dash out into the road without looking first? You think cars need to be more aware of whats going on around them? (for the record: i agree completely) but what about the bikes? the laws of phsyics are such that you can stop a bike if you need to, even if it is for, to borrow your phrase,  a "laughably short amount of time" to check for cars. it's really simple



fake edit: Alex, that website you linked has alot of good advice and I totally agree with the parts that I jut read, but the entire thing is superceded by this quote from the sidebar:

Quote
It's often helpful to ride in such a way that motorists won't hit you even if they don't see you. You're not trying to be invisible, you're trying to make it irrelevant whether cars see you or not. If you ride in such a way that a car has to see you to take action to avoid hitting you (e.g., by their slowing down or changing lanes), then that means they will definitely hit you if they don't see you. But if you stay out of their way, then you won't get hit even if they didn't notice you were there.

which is basically my entire point. cyclists are the ones who stand to die or be hurt so they should look the fuck out out of self-interest. But instead they'd much rather make a stink about motorists and other crap when they are the ones delibrately defying common sense to make some kind of point


againk, this is all from my limited, small-town experiences so for a city or something, I imagine that it would be very different. I  don't know anything about cities so just realize that I'm not specifically talking about them here
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Alex C

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #114 on: 26 Jan 2011, 13:45 »

Dude, I was a paramedic until recently. I have seen the result of a type 6 accident. There were witnesses as to what happened. It's not a strawman in a world where people routinely break speed limits. I stepped on one of the guy's teeth. Staying completely out of the way isn't possible in all situations. Your dinky ass town doesn't change that.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 13:48 by Alex C »
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bicostp

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #115 on: 26 Jan 2011, 13:47 »

but roads are for cars. bikes are not even close to cars and should not be driving down the middle of the road.


my point is that most cyclists (at least around here) are idiots with an absurd sense of entitlement and a sort of "i deserve to be treated just like a car even though I am on a fragile little frame going 25 under the speedlimit on a narrow road with no passing!" attitude which I find really obnoxious and borderline offensive.

[words]

This is exactly my point. Cyclists around here think they deserve for motorists to treat them like they're driving a car and yield to them as though they were a pedestrian, so they take up a third of a travel lane (never mind the buffer you have to leave around them when passing) and dart around everywhere because they're king of the friggin world.

You're too slow to drive like a car. You're too fast to dart around like a pedestrian. You can stop a hell of a lot faster than a car. You are smaller than a car. Don't expect us to yield to you as you glide through the intersection where you do not have the right of way. Obey road signs, stay visible, and most of all stay the hell in the gutter or designated bicycle lane* where you belong.

* And not one of your "I'm making a statement" special snowflake DIY painted-with-exterior-latex-at-3-AM bike lanes, either. The ones the highway department put there.

That bicycle safety website is full of the smug attitude that fuels this little rage fire. Unless you can keep up with traffic you shouldn't use an entire travel lane.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 14:02 by bicostp »
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Alex C

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #116 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:01 »

fake edit: Alex, that website you linked has alot of good advice and I totally agree with the parts that I jut read, but the entire thing is superceded by this quote from the sidebar:

Actually, that's the ideal and the crossing situations supercede it when it is no longer practical to stay out of the way. So, really, you have it precisely backwards. Likewise I stay to the right, but you shouldn't say "above all" because there are situations where roads are narrow and staying in the gutter conflicts with staying visible and the ability avoid getting doored. Motorists absolutely need to understand that or even responsible cyclists can be killed. Further, cyclists will continue to behave as if they are cars because legally we are required to act as if we are in many situations.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 14:03 by Alex C »
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #117 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:09 »

You're too slow to drive like a car. You're too fast to dart around like a pedestrian. You can stop a hell of a lot faster than a car. You are smaller than a car. Don't expect us to yield to you as you glide through the intersection where you do not have the right of way. Obey road signs, stay visible, and most of all stay the hell in the gutter or designated bicycle lane* where you belong.

while it's true that a lot of cyclists are real big dickholes, it's the exact same thing with drivers and the above post does everything to back me up. we're not going to be in the gutter and more often than not, there's no bike lane. the best of us do what we can to obey the rules of the road and stay alive, but a lot of the time, incredibly stupid and oblivious drivers force us to do dangerous maneuvers in order to draw attention to our mere existence. surprise, assholes, but we're legally vehicles, and therefore a part of traffic. best you get used to it.


there's usually fault on both sides of the line, but i'm pretty sure there's a greater ratio of driver error/stupidity than bike douchery.

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Alex C

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #118 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:11 »

I dunno, I'd say it's about 50-50. People don't know jack shit about bike laws and do dumb shit like teach their kids to ride against traffic all the time. It just pisses me off when people use the dumb bike riders as an excuse to pull a SWM and say that it's the cyclists fault if someone cuts them off.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 14:13 by Alex C »
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #119 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:14 »

Maybe my perception is skewed because the last time I got hit by a car, the driver was brushing his teeth.
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Alex C

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #120 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:22 »

That bicycle safety website is full of the smug attitude that fuels this little rage fire. Unless you can keep up with traffic you shouldn't use an entire travel lane.

Oh, I missed this!

I'll cede that point if you can find the place where it says that cyclists should have pedestrian right of way. The site is written from the point of view that we are to behave as vehicle operators, which is legally speaking what we are. I mean, you're calling people on bikes smug while at the same time implying that the laws are wrong and we are wrong for not just staying the hell out of your way. It reads as pretty hypocritical.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #121 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:33 »

Maybe my perception is skewed because the last time I got hit by a car, the driver was brushing his teeth.

this makes me think that maybe I have no place in this discussion.

I am a seriously good and careful driver. Like, to the max. I didn't get my license till about two weeks before I turned 19 because I was so scared of driving. my impeccable skills, coupled with my location, seems to tell me that my experiences with bikers are not really representative of most other peoples'.
Oh, and just for the record I know very little about bike law because it's not enforced here, like, at all. Everything I said was from a moral/common-courtesy type stance, which to me is the most important (obviously, what with the lax bike law enforcement around here)


...man, now i really miss my bike. can't believe i lost an entire bike, how does that even happen?  :|
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #122 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:38 »

Wait, how are cyclists a problem? They are just obiqutious in cities, so the whole concept is to get on highways asap, and then you have to just dodge cars and trucks.

[/dutch]
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #123 on: 26 Jan 2011, 14:51 »

It seems to me from some of the stuff said here as if driver training in the US doesn't include telling drivers that cycles on a road are vehicles and are required to behave as such and to be treated as such.  This was certainly part of the training in the UK when I last looked.

The idea that each vehicle has an inalienable right to travel without being inconvenienced by other vehicles in spite of sharing the same road with them  is the cause of a considerable proportion of bad driving, I think.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #124 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:09 »

why you gotta be so reasonable and wise, paul? how you gonna do a thing


i don't recall learning anything about bicycles in driver's ed. I'm sure they touched on it briefly but they obviously failed because until just now when I actually looked up my state's bike laws I was under the impression that bikes should not be treated like cars because they obviously aren't fucking cars. I approached the unknown with logic and came out looking like an idiot and being completely wrong. Way to go, america.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #125 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:12 »

I'm a couple of pages late to the roundabout discussion (i.e. ignore me, cyclists-on-the-sidewalk folks), but if y'all haven't seen this TED talk about roundabouts, it's worth a look...

From the video:
Quote
A study of 24 intersections converted to roundabouts found:
  • crashes dropped 40%
  • injury crashes dropped 76%
  • fatal crashes dropped 90%
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #126 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:17 »

Also, put your ####ing cell phone down when you drive.
Also, put your ####ing cell phone down when you drive.
Also, put your ####ing cell phone down when you drive.
Also, put your ####ing cell phone down when you drive.
Also, put your ####ing cell phone down when you drive.

x1,000,000
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #127 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:21 »

That book that Steve linked (it looks pretty good, actually!) mentions these things and the fact that they might contribute to driver complacency, actually.

....Uh, my name's not Steve?
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #128 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:25 »

nice try, steve!

no fooling us, no sir
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #129 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:25 »

It seems to me from some of the stuff said here as if driver training in the US doesn't include telling drivers that cycles on a road are vehicles and are required to behave as such and to be treated as such

Yeah, they really don't cover it at all. Years ago I had to ask the internets and the DMV sites just to find out if I was supposed to go with or against traffic on my bike. It's covered very, very poorly here and it makes it really frustrating to be a cyclist because people end up judging your actions based on what they themselves did as kids rather than by any sort of set standard.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #130 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:31 »

I really, really hate the "now I'm a car, oh now I'm a pedestrian" thing too. I can kind of see why people might choose to cycle through a red light when there is no way there'll be any cross traffic (the junction I am thinking of is a four-way stop where the pedestrians all cross at the same time, and both the pedestrian and cycle traffic is always on the same road because the other road is the ring road) - I have been road-cycling since I was a child and I can start up very quickly and I don't think I have ever held up a car when we set off at a green light.

But if you are not cycling straight across but turning a corner and there are people crossing your path THEY HAVE PRIORITY. It is the pedestrian green light. You are breaking the law and if you hit them, it is your fault.

This is the same as the turning on red thing actually. I guess I just really hate people who turn corners.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #131 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:36 »

My city recently made a lot of designated cycling lanes on main roads and I think it's great because there are a lot of cyclists here, but it pisses me off when bikes don't follow traffic laws. I don't want to hit bikers! I am very careful about them in passing and whatnot, but I find it highly irritating that they will run red lights and cut across stopped traffic to use the left turn lane. (I'm pretty sure you're supposed to use a hook turn on 4+ lane streets. I don't really know.) Basically the bikers that go wherever the hell they feel like going are not safe and I feel the same way about unsafe drivers. Obey the freaking traffic laws. They are there for a reason - to keep you alive. You should do this even more so as a biker because it's easier for you to get killed.

Tangent: Is it bad though that sometimes I really wish I could drive a very large, fast tank and run down every bad driver ever? Like those people going 90 down a highway who cut across all lanes of traffic to get off at a stop they're almost going to miss? And the people who talk on cell phones and almost run others off of the road? Especially those text-drivers out there. You can't do both. Pick one. Specifically KEEPING YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD.
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Alex C

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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #132 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:41 »

I want to run down everyone, no prejudice.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #133 on: 26 Jan 2011, 15:42 »

My favorite thing is the cyclist who thinks he can hang out in the left turn lane in front of other cars.

Actually, I do that deliberately - well, in the right-turn lane in my country, of course.  If I try to leave room for a car, some arsehole will crowd me out, or just not see me.  By asserting my right to a place on the road in such a way that the driver is forced to acknowledge it, I can actually be safer.

Agreed Paul. There is nothing which pisses me off like drivers who think they own the road. Fuck. That.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #134 on: 26 Jan 2011, 16:07 »

I want to run down everyone, no prejudice.

That too. Then the road could be mine, all mine.
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Ozymandias

Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #135 on: 26 Jan 2011, 16:17 »

I hate it when people don't understand that turn signals are to remove ambiguity. Yes, turn it off when not turn. Yes, turn it on when turning.

But then you have shit like this:



Intersection near my house

See how the road from the northeast shifts over to the left a bit at the intersection? I regularly see people turn on a left signal in order to indicate they are going straight. THIS IS NOT HELPFUL. I now no longer know if it is safe to cross at the same time as you in the opposite direction. I was never going to assume a lack of turn signal meant your intent was to crash into the house in front of you. Fuck you.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #136 on: 26 Jan 2011, 16:21 »

There will be a point where they are suddenly in every single car and everyone will wonder how on earth we survived without them. It's almost here in the UK.

Every modern vehicle has some kind of navigational tool aside from the motor car. It's an inevitable development and makes life so much easier.

Off-topic, but this is part of a really eloquent rebuttal to one of the main arguments people make against evolution. Basically, you can think of the gradual adoption of new car features as a kind of evolution. After enough time, it becomes difficult to conceive of a car without those features.

the laws of phsyics are such that you can stop a bike if you need to

um, have you ever ridden a bike? No, you can't stop suddenly. I mean, obviously you can stop eventually, but you are talking about stopping on a dime. Cars have things like power anti-lock brakes, bikes do not.

Here's the thing: I would agree that bicyclists shouldn't be in that situation of crossing between sidewalks, which is why they shouldn't be riding on the sidewalk. You're the one who suggested that they should be riding on the sidewalk, and then you go and argue that it's also their fault for getting hit when crossing the street.

For the record, I walk everywhere and very much hate it when cyclists are on the sidewalk. Also, I routinely have to stop suddenly because turning cars didn't notice me while I'm walking; it would be so much worse if I were on a bike and thus unable to stop suddenly.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 16:59 by jhocking »
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #137 on: 26 Jan 2011, 16:59 »

Also to pedestrians, mind the signs

There's a left turn first light at a major intersection in my town and some pedestrians think it is perfectly fine to start walking when a light turns green, despite the cross walk light telling them not to.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #138 on: 26 Jan 2011, 17:33 »

That book that Steve linked (it looks pretty good, actually!) mentions these things and the fact that they might contribute to driver complacency, actually.

....Uh, my name's not Steve?


Sorry, Steve and I were talking about it a lot in Meebo. My brain substituted names.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #139 on: 26 Jan 2011, 18:25 »

the laws of phsyics are such that you can stop a bike if you need to

um, have you ever ridden a bike? No, you can't stop suddenly. I mean, obviously you can stop eventually, but you are talking about stopping on a dime.

If you think a car can stop faster than a bike, you have bigger problems, my friend.


but that's absolutely besides the point since I was actually talking about stopping to look before the crossing the street. I thought it was obvious through context but obviously i shouldh ave clarified.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #140 on: 26 Jan 2011, 20:16 »

I hate it when people don't understand that turn signals are to remove ambiguity. Yes, turn it off when not turn. Yes, turn it on when turning.

But then you have shit like this:



Intersection near my house

See how the road from the northeast shifts over to the left a bit at the intersection? I regularly see people turn on a left signal in order to indicate they are going straight. THIS IS NOT HELPFUL. I now no longer know if it is safe to cross at the same time as you in the opposite direction. I was never going to assume a lack of turn signal meant your intent was to crash into the house in front of you. Fuck you.

More to the point, who was the drunken dipshit who designed that intersection anyway??!!    :-o
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #141 on: 26 Jan 2011, 21:31 »

I'm going to guess that the side of the road towards the top and right is from one town or municipality, while the one down and to the left is in a different one? That happens a lot in the US. In fact, it's the reason why the bridges over the Milwaukee River in downtown Milwaukee are all at an angle - two rival cities laid out their roads intentionally so they would not match up.
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Ozymandias

Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #142 on: 26 Jan 2011, 21:40 »

More to the point, who was the drunken dipshit who designed that intersection anyway??!!    :-o

The town I live in is 400 years old.

No "design" went into it. It is merely a mess of colonialism, mining boom, and modernity.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2011, 21:42 by Ozymandias »
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #143 on: 26 Jan 2011, 23:14 »

I have the horrible misfortune of working with motor insurance claims, so I am now fairly confident I will never, ever attempt to learn to drive, because it's just way too dangerous out there.

I have a claim at the moment, for example, where a motorist was proceeding around a mini roundabout - so single lane traffic - and, though they weren't indicating, the driver behind them has assumed that the fact they have moved over to the left is an indication they are taking that exit. The driver behind has then proceed to try and pass the motorist, while the motorist has come back across to the right in order to proceed straight on and has hit the rear of the other driver's car.

The driver and insurers of the second vehicle are insisting it is the first motorists fault.

Plus there's all the Highway Code and civil liability stuff I've learned since starting work, all the stuff about not relying on signals and all that kind of thing, and it just seems to me that the only way to drive is to do so with an X-Files "TRUST NO ONE" poster slapped on your dashboard. I don't think I could handle that kind of pressure just to get from A to B. I'll use the bus / train / my feet.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #144 on: 27 Jan 2011, 01:30 »

i don't understand why cyclists can't just ride on the fucking sidewalk

it's like a self-preservation instinct never manifested in 99% of the bikers I see



if I was riding my bike somewhere I would ride as far away as fucking possible from the speeding automobiles because I'm sort of partial to living and/or full use of my limbs/brain

Because it's dumb and illegal. You know when tons of cycling deaths occur? When people cross the street from the sidewalk on their bicycles. Quite simply, motorists don't watch what is happening on the sidewalks. When you cross from the sidewalk it's like you're materializing from the ether at 12 mph as far as they're concerned. Plus, wide swaths of the country don't even have sidewalks in the US.

Absolutely

I like to refer to the Toronto coroner's study that determined that riding on the sidewalk was a contributary factor in over 60% of all bicycle accidents, injuries and fatalities. Self-preservation fail.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #145 on: 27 Jan 2011, 03:17 »

but roads are for cars.

Like fuck they are. Roads are for vehicles, which is a wholly different definition from a car. I'm even willing to take a reasonable punt that in local law a bicycle is defined in some form as a vehicle. Ownership of a car doen't entitle the driver to more than anyone who doesn't/

and most of all stay the hell in the gutter or designated bicycle lane* where you belong.

I'm not sure what the laws require where you are, but here in the UK there was a recent test case where the police tried to prosecute a cyclist for not using a cycle lane. The court found for the cyclist on the grounds that there is no point in law that requires a cyclist to use a cycle lane and it is included in Highway Code that cycle lanes are advisory only.

Aside from that there are a couple of very good reasons for not staying in the gutter or on the sidewalk. The first being that the majority of road surface degredation happens within the first meter and a half from the edge of the road. On top of that you have drains and the general accumulation of debris. This basically means that the gutter and roadside bike lanes are often unrideable and that's even before some muppet has parked illegally meaning once again we have to swerve out to get past.

And so moving on to swerving, if cyclists were to ride in the gutter, we'd constantly be weaving out to get past pothole, drains, bits of smashed headlight and so on. From a cyclists perspective, not only is this really annoying, but I get far less grief from car drivers if I get out in the lane and hold a steady line than if I'm all over the place erratically or unpredictably (which has been complained about upthread).

The other main point is visibiilty. Out in the lane a cyclists visibility is massively improved, and therefore safety. And that's not just visibility from behind, but also to traffic emerging from junctions or turning onto junctions. Street furniture, parked cars, obscured corners and that plain old gem of not expecting a cyclist to be there so not expecting one means that riding at the edge of the road is simply a lot less safe. No surprise then that in the UK government approved cycle training teaches riders to ride out in the lane (although not to hold up traffic) and this is backed by the Department for Transport, the combined police services and several motoring advocacy groups.

I find it quite that even in this thread there isn't a consensus view from drivers on what they expect from cyclists. It certainly reflects the motoring world in general. That makes it very difficult to cycle in a way that is acceptable to one driver without pissing off another. I see it as far more preferable to cycle in a legal manner that is actually safe rather than what some drivers perceive as safe.
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I had a vacation in Yorkshire a couple of years ago, and one of the things we did was to go for a biking trip through the countryside. It was quite brilliant, but we also learned that laws and customs about where and how to ride a bike are so completely different that it's pretty much impossible for me to ride one "correct" outside of Norway. The first thing we were met with after taking our bikes out of the bike rental was "There's a fucking road out there!". Rude fuckers, but we got the point quite quickly.

See, here we regard cyclists as, well, cyclists, not cars or pedestrians. I think that makes more sense. The idea is that they can choose between the sidewalk or the road, but if they are using the road they should behave like vehicles and if they use the sidewalk, they should behave like pedestrians. One of the main things here is that if you ever cross the road from sidewalk to sidewalk on a bike, you have to walk it across. Other than that, bikers can get speeding tickets (usually going downhill in populated areas), and apply to all the same rules as any other vehicles if they choose to go into traffic, so (I think) they're not allowed to go onto highways because they're not able to go fast enough to be able to not obstruct traffic.

I can see why people don't want cyclists on the sidewalk, and I can very well see why some cyclists wants to stay the hell out of traffic.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #147 on: 27 Jan 2011, 05:43 »

uhh pardon my interruption on cycles but;

I am glad we're on different continents.

why? i mean, i don't text or talk on the phone while driving, i never dui, i drive like a granny when it's raining/snowing/foggy, i don't do stuff if i'm not 99% sure i can pull it off, and put all that aside, i have never put anybody's life in the slightest danger. i have only two problems which i stated before and i'm aware of them.
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Re: Some things about driving
« Reply #148 on: 27 Jan 2011, 05:51 »

These two statements are simply not compatible:

i can go for miles at any speed behind almost anybody, being just 2-3 meters apart

i have never put anybody's life in the slightest danger.
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Not to mention:

-i have broken many rules
-i drive very aggressively,
-i just can't keep myself from speeding
-the line where it starts to be scary instead of mischievous is not clear to me so i just keep pushing on and on and on.
-i think i should get one track and one slow shitbox car before i grow old and my reflexes get slower, or i'll surely kill myself.
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