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Author Topic: Bickering about bicycles, now with occasional tips about motorised vehicles  (Read 181896 times)

Alex C

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As always, being a douche bag tends to come down to one trait more often than not: a misplaced sense of entitlement. This is applicable to many things! For example, are you interested in sexy times with someone? That's okay and normal! Do you think that person pretty much owes it to you? Now you're thinking like a sex offender!
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sean

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i cant wait for spring to come cause im gonna be the biggest douche on that fixie i found.

(oh yeah btw i did what you all said i should do, i had like 5 or so people contact me, and none of them were the owner of that bike. womp i kinda feel bad for the dude who lost it but eh. plus if i didnt scoop it ive had like 5 people tell me they wanted to scoop it so super womp i am a dick and a bad adult.)
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tommydski

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I am pleased the way we have managed to introduce comparisons which involve Fascism and sex offenders now.

This thread is going in the right direction.
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One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

SonofZ3

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Please tell me all you QC cyclists wear at least 1 of those blinking lights that atrap to your arm, or have one on your bike. When it gets to be dusk, people on bikes without lights are ridiculously hard to fucking see from a vehicle. I'm not sure why, but its the truth.
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redglasscurls

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I'm kind of amused that you've taken from my example that I don't think bikes should be used for fun. Because you are completely wrong! You're taking my saying pretty much exactly what you are (some people on bikes ride like dickheads! other people don't!) and spinning it around for absolutely no valid reason that I can fathom except that everyone is already in an argumentative mood about this.

Wear all the spandex you like and get nice and healthy on your bike. Just don't you dare look at me like I'M the giant douche when I am pinned between your glacial uphill progress and a gigantic SUV roaring up behind me flashing its lights.
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Joseph

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No offense Amanda but if in that situation you honk at the cyclist or act like he has no right to be on the road then I think you're dead wrong.
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Cernunnos

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and spinning it around
ASSHOLE
I'm not spinning anything. How is calling people assholes for riding bikes up hills not argumentative?

And if you'll notice I'm not making bikers look bad by being argumentative, because I'm not a biker. I'm just a courteous driver. C'ept to tailgaters apparently but I'm not gonna do that anymore.

To Jens's comment, Bikers do belong on the roads. It's even in the law. The question of the infrastructure not being designed for them specifically is a flaw in said infrastructure. You are right to say it is to be expected for drivers to feel a sense of entitlement, but it is not reasonable of them to do so.

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calenlass

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I accidentally tapped a guy a few months ago at the intersection I have in mind because he stopped, accelerated forward, and then stopped again. I guess he was checking the cross traffic again, but I was seriously not expecting that.



some wierdo fabric called cotton duck

Cotton duckcloth is basically just a heavy-duty canvas that has been weather treated to make it good for outdoor purposes. It is basically like a hardcore denim that you would never want to wear because shit is really not comfortable.
« Last Edit: 28 Jan 2011, 12:54 by calenlass »
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redglasscurls

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People who make roads dangerous by their activities are assholes. Whether they are a speeder careering around a hilly curve in a 2-ton vehicle or a cyclist panting around that hilly curve on a road bike, they are both endangering other people with equal rights to drive/ride on that road by their actions, and in either case I think it is reprehensible.
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redglasscurls

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No offense Amanda but if in that situation you honk at the cyclist or act like he has no right to be on the road then I think you're dead wrong.

Double posting to say that I have never once done this. I HAVE however, been cursed at by cyclists AND tiny women in giant cars for not putting myself in danger and looping around bikes over a double yellow.
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also, related to burning stuff: a friend threw up on a hot water heater once, the vomit steam burned her face. awesome!

Cernunnos

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That might be because passing bikes over a double yellow line is legal in a few but not most states, mine being one of them. Admittedly i don't know about yours. I'd never have given a second thought if there was no oncoming traffic, especially since even in states where it is against the law, it's not exactly a heavily enforced offense.
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Slick

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You know five hours ago I had a post typed up because I am a guy all about bikes but then I decided to wait until I got back from school again and had more time to write a better post.
Somehow no longer feel like doing so!
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redglasscurls

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From cursory research, that seems to apply only in Pennsylvania and Vermont. I have never lived in either of these states- in both Maryland and Virginia it is only legal to pass at dashed lines, usually with the very good reason that double yellows are used where you cannot see far enough ahead (due to the hills and curves I seem to keep harping on about) to safely pass.

I'm not worried about being pulled over for going around a bike, I'm worried about getting hit head-on by a car I couldn't see because someone chose to ride their bike in an area where they were fully aware they would not be able to keep up with the flow of traffic and their fellow vehicles would not have safe options while trying to avoid endangering them.

I despise driving and 100% support biking, and changes in roads to make them friendly to both types of vehicles. I would love to see more people choose cycling wherever possible. I do not support people putting me in danger during the time I begrudgingly spend on the road by riding in places which are just not yet safe for either the rider or the driver to be in such close proximity.
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Lines

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Re tailgating: If someone rushes up behind me nearly giving me a heartattack on the highway, I'm going to get out of the way if it's possible. Because I don't want to die because someone is stupid. If I have nowhere else to go, then they can go fuck themselves and slow their stupid ass down. I will not speed up, however, unless it is to pass another car to get out of the way or I honestly think you are going to plow into me if I don't. (There was only one instance where I really felt I was going to die because of some stupid, huge SUV and it scared the shit out of me.) Don't tailgate. It scares people. I don't care how nice you are in person, if you tailgate on highways, you are a dick.
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pwhodges

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People who make roads dangerous by their activities are assholes. Whether they are a speeder careering around a hilly curve in a 2-ton vehicle or a cyclist panting around that hilly curve on a road bike, they are both endangering other people with equal rights to drive/ride on that road by their actions, and in either case I think it is reprehensible.

Going faster than is safe is always reprehensible.  But there is no absolute right to travel even at the fastest "safe" speed, either, so I suggest that if you think a slow cyclist (riding properly, none-the-less) is causing danger, the danger is coming from you going too fast to accommodate their "equal rights" in the conditions on that road.
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Please tell me all you QC cyclists wear at least 1 of those blinking lights that atrap to your arm, or have one on your bike.

Flashing red light on the back of the bike, bright rechargeable light on the front, emergency back-up flashing LED light on the front as well for when the main light's battery dies in the middle of a ride or when I have to ride on a footpath briefly and I don't want to dazzle pedestrians, reflective bandolier style vest which I put on over my bag so that it's visible from both front and back, and reflective ankle straps which provide the dual purpose of keeping my trouser legs out of the chain and providing a highly visible moving object to (hopefully) catch the eye of any motorist.
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jhocking

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I live in Pittsburgh, well, about 3 miles away from downtown actually, and none of the onramps I can think of have stop signs. Except when the onramp is on a stretch of roadway that is under "road work", then there is a stop sign.

I guess I should have specified this was back in college, so they may have wised up by now. I remember the stop signs especially because I had to explain to my roommate why they were a bad idea. I can't imagine the right turns off the highway are gone though; do you encounter those? You had to slow down while still on the highway.

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Lights are fine but I don't understand reflective straps. I'm not convinced they serve any purpose but being expensive and making you look like a fuckwit. My bike has lights, as it is required to have by law. If people are going to ignore those lights, I don't think draping myself in extra-lights and high-vis is particularly going to help.

It's the same with all this spandex tosh. I can't help but think it's just companies that make cycling accessories desperately trying to come up with new ways of making you part with cash. For me, the beauty of cycling (when I do it, as I said I'm mostly on a bus and walking jag at the moment for various reasons) is its utter simplicity. You get on the bike and go; you don't need special clothes or gear or shoes, just a bike. I have a folding bike, which is quite nice although honestly a bit much and rather impractical. The small wheel size makes doing everything doubly difficult (I originally got it so I could keep it in my bedroom in a shared house).

What's peoples position on helmets? I don't wear one. No point.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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Jimmy the Squid

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If you're going to ride a bike you should wear a helmet. It's the difference between brain damage and less or possibly no brain damage for the cost of a little bit of money. Entirely worth it, in my opinion but then I'm big on not injuring myself so whatever.
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KharBevNor

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If you get hit by a car having thirty quids worth of cheap plastic and styrofoam strapped to your head is not going to make any difference to your wellbeing whatsoever.

I have been in two cycling accidents over the past five years, in neither of which would wearing a helmet have remotely saved me from injury (either injuries that occured or could have potentially occured). The one time I hit my head it was chin first. My father was wearing a helmet when he had a fairly bad cycling accident in the early 90's and his face still got ripped to shreds; like me, he landed on the front of his face, which makes sense if you think about how you're likely to come off a bike. Unlike me, he was wearing old fashioned glass spectacles. If I was truly concerned about the dangers, I'd wear a full-face helmet. But really, statistically, cycling is about as dangerous as being a pedestrian, and I don't wear a helmet to cross the street.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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Elizzybeth

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As a driver, I can confirm that reflective straps on the ankles, reflectors on pedals, and reflectors on the back of helmets go a long way toward making a bicyclist look visible at night.  A number of times, I have seen a night bicyclist only because of the reflection of my headlights off of one or more of these things.  Lights are great and all but reflectors are really effective (and many times brighter than the little red lights, which sometimes get accidentally covered by coats, etc.), and I don't see why you'd ever argue against being more visible...

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Inlander

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We have reflective straps for the same reason we have cat's eyes on roads in addition to street lights: the sudden flare up of light from a reflective surface is much more eye-catching than an ordinary light is. Flourescent reflective straps for bicycles are particularly useful at dusk: normal lights can be easy to miss in such conditions, but the reflective straps are extraordinarily vivid.

Also because when you're a cyclist there's no such thing as "too visible" and if you're worried that dressing up in spangly safety wear (as opposed to stupid lycra jerseys) makes you look uncool then maybe you're too drunk or too high to be riding a bicycle in the first place?

As for helmets, when you come off your bike, if you have time to react, you're instinctively going to tuck your head to protect your face. Just about every time I've hit the ground I've banged the side of my head and I'd much rather have gravel rash on my helmet than on my scalp, thankyou very much. Plus in Australia in spring you're liable to get swooped by magpies and you're really going to want a helmet then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usFuPKyR2A0.
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Alex C

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I wear a helmet, but that's because I worry as much about minimizing the damage from a hard spill as much as I worry about getting hit by a car-- I'm just kind of a clumsy dude and cautious by nature, really. I don't want to be that guy in the paper who died 'cuz he hit his head on a parking meter or some other silly shit. The limbs and face do tend to take the brunt of most spills, but then, there's still cases where people smack their head on a curb, parked car or a guard rail, and I gave myself a good knock to the head as a child when I didn't brake correctly descending a hill. Anyway though, the mandatory helmet issue is small potatoes to me, well-meaning though it may be. It's their skull, not mine, and as we've touched on I think the US needs to work more on making sure kids actually know what they should be doing out there in the first place than anything else.
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bainidhe_dub

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I really have got to second Amanda's bit about the windy hilly roads. Cyclists around here routinely ride on the narrow, twisting, heavily wooded back roads with 35mph speed limits (which god knows aren't followed since out of town kids keep killing themselves going off turns). The people talking about city riding (both here and in the links) have said that when biking you should reconsider the route you would drive so you don't unnecessarily place yourself in danger; I strongly believe the same consideration should be made when planning a cycling route in the "country". And while the C&O Canal Towpath is a good place to ride, it is a simple fact that many of the roads that access it are terrible places to ride, but then I guess we've come back around to a lack of bike-friendly infrastructure. I hope I'm not coming off as "it's fine just not in my back yard" but these roads are just not safe or well-maintained, hell if I'm putting my unprotected self on the side of them, with or without some metal and rubber to sit on, and I cannot fathom why others would choose to do so in those particular areas.
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pwhodges

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In 60 years of on-road cyclling, including years of commuting in backstreets, in London, and through country, I have had just one full-on collision, which was with another bike which turned in front of me when I was going fast.  I've had maybe two or three serious tumbles on my own (I'm not including trivial slithers and falls in snow or mud when they are expected as part of the deal).  In none of these has my head touched the ground.

I choose not to wear a helmet, mainly because I feel the proportion of likely injuries it would mitigate is really quite small.

Should pedestrians wear helmets in case they are knocked over by a car?  I heard last night that NYC (I think) is (?considering) making walking while using a mobile phone an offense.  What next, walking while talking?  Though I believe that Alex Issigonis (the designer of the original Morris Mini-minor) forbad any talking in the car when he was driving...
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KharBevNor

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My bike has pedal reflectors and other reflectors on it (these are standard bike gear, right?) As I said, to me it seems like the chief best reason for cycling is the ease of it. If I have to carry round bags and pockets full of special shiny gear which I have to carry with me or store when I reach my destination then suddenly cycling starts become a lot more ridiculous. I have a friend who cycles everywhere on his fuck-off sports bike, and he takes about half an hour to spread on or peel off his suggestively armoured spandex before and after each cycle ride. He lives on the Isle of Wight. Despite the fact that he's a wicked-fast cyclist, the time he spends changing into and out of his special cycling clothes often makes his journey longer than it would if he simply walked.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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The Seldom Killer

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People who make roads dangerous by their activities are assholes.... a cyclist panting around that hilly curve on a road bike, ... in either case I think it is reprehensible.

I really have got to second Amanda's bit about the windy hilly roads.

Sorry but this is absolute nonsense.

Firstly the incredibly high majority of cyclists riding on these winding hilly roads will hear you way before you're aware of them and will take necessary action to a) make themselves visible to you and b) ensure that you can overtake them safely and reasonably.

Secondly, if you are driving in such a manner that you could crash into a slow moving cyclist on a hill then you're already putting yourself at risk of far greater hazards. Any decent driver should always be able to stop in the distance that they can see. If you can't do that then you're basically driving too fast and too recklessly. It's not the cyclists that you need to worry about, it's the broken down car, the fallen tree, the wild animal that has run out into the road (for many years the greatest cause of death on roads in Newfoundland were moose), a shed load from a logging truck and so on. Driving like that might kill a cyclist, it will almost definitely kill you, at that speed it's just a numbers game. Maybe you'll be lucky all your life, but I don't recall anything in the driving test about trying to be lucky.

As for that SUV that is driving right behind you flashing their lights and so on, it's important to remember that they already haven't crashed into you and haven't demonstrated any intention to do so. Sometimes you can't avoid confrontation and that's life, don't hang it on the cyclist because the person behind you is an incompetent driver.
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The Seldom Killer

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You get on the bike and go; you don't need special clothes or gear or shoes, just a bike.

What's peoples position on helmets? I don't wear one. No point.


Wearing lycra et al really depends on what kind of cycling you do.

Over twenty miles or so jeans and a cotton T will suffice and I quite often roll out in civvies when I'm not going far. On the other hand, when I'm doing long distance riding there's a number of reasons I wear lycra and other techncal fabrics. Firstly is power conservation, after all I like riding all day (and sometimes all night and all of the next day as well)  not running myself into the ground. Lycra is lighter, cooler and breathes better than just about any other fabric available on the market. On top of that, I ride with a hard saddle and eight panel padding in my shorts. This means the padding works sympathetically to my movements rather than absorbing all of my energy. Cycling shoes with cleats mean more of my energy is transfered through the pedals etc. It also means that I don't suffer from chaffing and heat rash nearly as much. Just common sense really.

As for lights and a helmet? yes to both.

Lights are pretty obvious really. I don't bother with lots of shiny reflective stuff though. Visibility is more than just about how much light you can reflect and positioning can achieve a lot more (based on scientific studies, not just anecdotal evidence). I certainly don't feel like people haven't seen me when the come to pass me and on one occasion when I was riding in the iddle of the lane at night with my massive flashing light on the front in a well lit area and wearing a reflective tabard (for an event I was marshalling) someone still pulled out of a T junction in front of me for which I had to slam on the brakes to stop. He then wound down the window and, with his hand in front of his eyes to shield himself from my light and said "Sorry mate, I didn't see you".

I wear a helmet, I guess, because I own one. I had to get one to cycle across Canada (they're the law in British Columbia and New Brunswick) I've never had to "use it" and don't expect it to offer me complete protection in the event of any accident, certainly less so from being hit by a car. However, like wearing glasses, I now end up feeling naked without one. I've read a lot of the studies and arguments around wearing helmet and the best I can come up with is it's 50/50. So now that I own one I guess I'm on that side of the argument. However, I'll never berate or preach to someone who chooses not to.
« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2011, 06:02 by The Seldom Killer »
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redglasscurls

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We're going to just continue butting heads on this, because that is just such utter bullshit. Save your lecture on stopping distances for when you teach a driver's ed class because you have absolutely no idea how I drive and I find it incredibly insulting.

If I knew that my car was able to reach average speeds of about 15mph and had all but one of it's lights burnt out there is NO WAY I would put that thing on a road with limited visibility because that is insanely dangerous both to myself and those around me. Fuck that. Even if there are thousands of drivers (like me!) who have attended The Seldom Killer's School of Driving, there is no need to risk coming into contact with some assholes racing each other, a high school kid who panics and hits the gas instead of the brake, or an old car whose brakes lock up and send it sliding, in a spot where there was no chance to see me until the last minute.
I'm not going to come back to this thread because it's going to keep going round and round and I think you are all being totally ridiculous if you don't see any shred of responsibility for creating danger for other people by riding in unsafe areas.
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Denn Du Bist, Was Du Isst   (you are what you eat)
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KharBevNor

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That stuffs all fine if you're actually cycling all day and all night, but as I said, dude lives on the Isle of Wight. He puts on this stuff to cycle three miles to work. You can cycle the entire perimeter of the island comfortably within the daylight of a summers day if you are fit enough.

The other advantage of living on the Isle of Wight is the traffic is much more sedate and there's a hugely developed network of cycle paths and bridleways. Particularly, there is a fantastic network of cycle paths running along the old railway lines that provide excellent, fairly flat, entirely off-road, generally metalled routes (including bridges and tunnels) between a lot of the major towns. This is one reason I haven't taken my bike up to Bournemouth again this academic year. I find driving in the town to be existentially terrifying and I'm not sure I'm really up to it.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

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On top of that, I ride with a hard saddle and eight panel padding in my shorts.

This is important. When I was riding my bike daily for exercise I got dressed up in all the lycra stuff because being on a bike for any extended amount of time is going to cause not insignificant pain to yr asshole, and having cycling shorts with padding in the butt area are going to go a long way to alleviating that.

Cycling shirts are good too because they -being designed for cycling, and all- have several features which make extended rides easier, like a long pocket in the back of the shirt so you don't have to keep things in yr pants (which would be annoying and pokey when pedalling for extended periods) and zips down the front to let the cool air in.

Also it is the law to wear  helmet in West Australia but I think I would wear one anyway no matter where I am because even though it doesn't make a shitdang difference if you get hit by a car (what would, really?), that's not the only way to come off of a bike and there are plenty of opportunities to come off sideways or in such a way that having something between the ground and yr eggshell of a skull would definitely be handy.
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imagist42

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People who make roads dangerous by their activities are assholes.... a cyclist panting around that hilly curve on a road bike, ... in either case I think it is reprehensible.

I really have got to second Amanda's bit about the windy hilly roads.

Sorry but this is absolute nonsense.

Firstly the incredibly high majority of cyclists riding on these winding hilly roads will hear you way before you're aware of them and will take necessary action to a) make themselves visible to you and b) ensure that you can overtake them safely and reasonably.

Secondly, if you are driving in such a manner that you could crash into a slow moving cyclist on a hill then you're already putting yourself at risk of far greater hazards. Any decent driver should always be able to stop in the distance that they can see. If you can't do that then you're basically driving too fast and too recklessly. It's not the cyclists that you need to worry about, it's the broken down car, the fallen tree, the wild animal that has run out into the road (for many years the greatest cause of death on roads in Newfoundland were moose), a shed load from a logging truck and so on. Driving like that might kill a cyclist, it will almost definitely kill you, at that speed it's just a numbers game. Maybe you'll be lucky all your life, but I don't recall anything in the driving test about trying to be lucky.

As for that SUV that is driving right behind you flashing their lights and so on, it's important to remember that they already haven't crashed into you and haven't demonstrated any intention to do so. Sometimes you can't avoid confrontation and that's life, don't hang it on the cyclist because the person behind you is an incompetent driver.

Sorry but this is absolute nonsense. The hill country around the places I have lived is kind of ridiculous at times. Hills are so steep you literally cannot see what's on top of them until you're, well, on top of them. If you are suggesting every single person driving a vehicle up such hills should make sure they could stop within the distance they can see, no traffic would ever pass through them. You would get this kind of infinite progression toward 0 mph because the distance you can see keeps shrinking until you breach the top. Now I'm not saying it's reasonable to be going at such incredible speed up those hills that you couldn't execute an evasive maneuver within reason when you crest them and suddenly there's an obstacle in your path, but to suggest that it's entirely the driver's fault if there's some dude kind of chilling exactly over the top of the hill and some kind of accident ensues is pretty dang silly.
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KharBevNor

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Aren't blind hills and corners what horns and bells and such were invented for?
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ackblom12

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If you get hit by a car having thirty quids worth of cheap plastic and styrofoam strapped to your head is not going to make any difference to your wellbeing whatsoever.

I have been in two cycling accidents over the past five years, in neither of which would wearing a helmet have remotely saved me from injury (either injuries that occured or could have potentially occured). The one time I hit my head it was chin first. My father was wearing a helmet when he had a fairly bad cycling accident in the early 90's and his face still got ripped to shreds; like me, he landed on the front of his face, which makes sense if you think about how you're likely to come off a bike. Unlike me, he was wearing old fashioned glass spectacles. If I was truly concerned about the dangers, I'd wear a full-face helmet. But really, statistically, cycling is about as dangerous as being a pedestrian, and I don't wear a helmet to cross the street.

This reminds me a lot of people who refuse to wear seatbelts because on occasion not wearing seat belts doesn't have a negative effect on a person in an accident. It's kind of a dumb reason to not wear a helmet.
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Papersatan

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When I was small my brother fell of his bike and hit the edge of a curb.  He had a huge bump on his head, but was otherwise ok. His helmet cracked in half.  I'd say in that case the helmet saved him from more serious injury. 
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Alex C

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This reminds me a lot of people who refuse to wear seatbelts because on occasion not wearing seat belts doesn't have a negative effect on a person in an accident. It's kind of a dumb reason to not wear a helmet.

It's not really the crux of the argument though. Really it comes down to a matter of degrees. Responsible cycling is pretty safe in general-- you're still pretty damn safe even without a helmet provided you pay attention. Further, whether wearing a helmet or not really helps very much is one of those things that seems obvious on the face of things but is surprisingly hard to prove in practice. We simply haven't been able to make a correlation between injuries and helmet wearing that cannot be quickly and easily explained away by the simple fact that requiring helmets cuts down on the number of cyclists that are on the road to begin with. There's situations where bicycle helmets can help, yes, but the early reports indicate that such incidents make up a vanishingly small portion of bike accidents.
« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2011, 10:25 by Alex C »
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scarred


I actually find myself riding a lot more recklessly when I am wearing a helmet, whereas when I'm sporting my fashionable cyclist-douche cap, I tend err on the side of caution. The only catastrophic accident I've ever been in, I was wearing my helmet, but like Khar, I went down chin first.

I wish there was a "meh, *shrug*" emoticon.
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KharBevNor

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This reminds me a lot of people who refuse to wear seatbelts because on occasion not wearing seat belts doesn't have a negative effect on a person in an accident. It's kind of a dumb reason to not wear a helmet.

Except how seatbelts make a significant, demonstrable difference to the safety of drivers and passengers in car crashes with a rigorously demonstrated history in scientific literature and bicycle helmets have been shown in some studies to paradoxically increase the proportion of cycling related injuries and even to cause motorists to act less safely around cyclists, and have never, ever been shown to actually decrease any of the risks associated with cycling.

Plus there's what scarred said, which I believe is called the Peltzman effect, i.e., the safer you feel the more risks you take.
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It hasn't been proven, but the Peltzman effect is suspected to have a rather insidious effect on pro sports as well. Contrast rugby with grid iron football. Rugby has far more "minor" injuries due to the relative lack of safety equipment, no contest. Deep muscle bruises, knocked out teeth, ridiculous scrapes and rashes, poked out eyeballs-- you name it, rugby has it. But in spite of wearing helmets grid iron football isn't as far ahead on the concussion prevention issue as people might otherwise suspect. That's likely because all that gear makes guys feel invincible yet such equipment can only do so much to prevent whiplash and neck injuries. No helmet is going to prevent your neck from collapsing on itself like an accordion if you lead with your noggin on a tackle, but that kind of thing isn't likely to cross the mind of a psyched up 19 year old college student when he goes in for a tackle.
« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2011, 12:24 by Alex C »
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ackblom12

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I'm not likely to be a good source on this, but American Football also has a nasty culture of Dirty and Rough playing doesn't it?

Also that whole idea that despite possibly turning temp injuries into permanent injuries you should be playing the season? Admittedly they also get ridiculous money to do this so hey.
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Alex C

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There's some serious, heavy duty hypocrisy and misplaced priorities going on with American football, yeah. The ESPN message boards and youtube comments on what and what doesn't constitute dirty play is a cesspool.


There are people who whine about how the game is no longer played like it was back in the '70s. You know, back when totally irresponsible and unacceptable roughing plays like this one only warranted a 15 yard penalty.
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@rocketboy2233 Thanks ass wipe. Now go fuck your sister, you useless piece of Cleveland trash! LMFAO!
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your gay what?
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No, just his gay, everyone has one.
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I think you are all being totally ridiculous if you don't see any shred of responsibility for creating danger for other people by riding in unsafe areas.

No one is suggesting that any road user should not be responsible.  But any  vehicle on a road has the potential to cause danger to any other  vehicle, regardless of type, and seeing this as a one-way transfer just isn't helpful.

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I think you are all being totally ridiculous if you don't see any shred of responsibility for creating danger for other people by riding in unsafe areas.

No one is suggesting that any road user should not be responsible.  But any  vehicle on a road has the potential to cause danger to any other  vehicle, regardless of type, and seeing this as a one-way transfer just isn't helpful.



Not really. On certain roads, limited access highways (4 lanes), there is an expectation of a rate of speed that certain vehicles cannot maintain. Here in PA, it is illegal to have bicycles, motor scooters, etc. on a limited access highway because the limitations of those vehicles make them incompatible for use on that roadway. While it is certainly legal to have bicycles in lanes of traffic on roads that have speed limit of 55mph, Bicyclists should realize that the average rate of travel on a road like that will be MUCH faster than what they can maintain, and that can cause dangerous situations. There are laws about obstructing the flow of traffic (by driving too slow) and while I've never heard of a bicyclist receiving a citation for that, I know of motor vehicle drivers that have been pulled over for driving a car at the speed a bicycle will go. If its bad for a car to go that slow on a road, why is it any different for a bike?
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Save your lecture on stopping distances for when you teach a driver's ed class because you have absolutely no idea how I drive and I find it incredibly insulting.

Ultimately I have no strong feelings about this argument because I neither drive nor cycle regularly, and as you note I have no idea how you drive, but I will say that I tend to fall on the side of cyclists here just because I grew up in areas of Connecticut with lots of rural roads going through hilly forests and I knew lots of people who drove incredibly recklessly and thought nothing of it. Their logic boiled down to "barely anyone else is on this road so stop worrying about other drivers." Sure you can't see what's on the other side of the hill, but that's precisely why you should slow down. And for god's sake stay in your lane; narrow roads are a reason to worry how much space you're giving other drivers, not a reason to move away from the edge of the road.

I recall once reading about how one of these roads had literally the highest fatality rate in the country (note: fatality rate, not absolute number of fatalities, because obviously some rural road doesn't have as much traffic as the turnpike.)

In fact most of those people would get outright angry at me if I was in the passenger seat and suggested that they should slow down. I myself scared my driving instructor when going through one section near my house by driving through it exactly the way my mom did, which is to say weaving over both lanes in order to maintain speed through the tight S. I never bothered to explain things to my mom after that (if my peers don't want to listen to my explanations, my mom sure as hell wouldn't) but I was always more careful after that.

On certain roads, limited access highways (4 lanes), there is an expectation of a rate of speed that certain vehicles cannot maintain. Here in PA, it is illegal to have bicycles, motor scooters, etc. on a limited access highway because the limitations of those vehicles make them incompatible for use on that roadway.

I've seen plenty of roads with minimum speeds, but these were all highways. The discussion here is about small mountain roads, and I've never seen a minimum speed on a road like that for the simple reason that you should be going slow on a road like that. I once heard of a driver who got a speeding ticket from an officer who looked at their speedometer while jogging past; most people telling/hearing that story seem to think the officer was the asshole in that situation, but if the speed limit on a road is that low then it means that road is REALLY dangerous.
« Last Edit: 30 Jan 2011, 09:07 by jhocking »
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Tyler

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Having been a bicyclist in a hilly section of CT, a driver in the same area, and now a resident of NYC, I have been on both sides of the argument. From my bicycling experience, 99 times out of 100, a driver who would be angry at me for slowly making my way up a hill was angry because I was an inconvenience to their expected rate of travel. It was a response akin to having to stay behind farm equipment moving down the road.

Therein lies where I think the largest issue is. Amanda is totally right in seeing added issues with bikers on inclines and winding roads, but incorrectly demonizes the biker for this. A car driving down that same road also creates a risk and inconvenience. As would a pedestrian, animal, tractor, bad weather, and any number of other factors. At least in the states I lived in, the driver is always the one legally responsible to adjust driving habits to fit the conditions of the road.  If that means coming around a blind turn, slowing down should absolutely happen, even if it means dropping well below speed limit. Sure, you will occasionally deal with a cyclist that has no sense in exercising extra caution in areas of lower visibility, but that is the exception.

The bicyclist represents a deviation from the norm and the comfortable for a driver, but that in no way lessens their rights.
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jhocking

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the norm and the comfortable

This seems to be a huge factor in this thread's discussions. As with so many things in life, norms are very different in different areas, and people generally have a hard time conceiving of their norms not necessarily being the optimal way of doing things.

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I think you are all being totally ridiculous if you don't see any shred of responsibility for creating danger for other people by riding in unsafe areas.

No one is suggesting that any road user should not be responsible.  But any  vehicle on a road has the potential to cause danger to any other  vehicle, regardless of type, and seeing this as a one-way transfer just isn't helpful.



Not really. On certain roads, limited access highways (4 lanes), there is an expectation of a rate of speed that certain vehicles cannot maintain. Here in PA, it is illegal to have bicycles, motor scooters, etc. on a limited access highway because the limitations of those vehicles make them incompatible for use on that roadway. While it is certainly legal to have bicycles in lanes of traffic on roads that have speed limit of 55mph, Bicyclists should realize that the average rate of travel on a road like that will be MUCH faster than what they can maintain, and that can cause dangerous situations. There are laws about obstructing the flow of traffic (by driving too slow) and while I've never heard of a bicyclist receiving a citation for that, I know of motor vehicle drivers that have been pulled over for driving a car at the speed a bicycle will go. If its bad for a car to go that slow on a road, why is it any different for a bike?

What does this have to do with anything?
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