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Author Topic: Bickering about bicycles, now with occasional tips about motorised vehicles  (Read 242217 times)

Akima

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Every time you see a bike in front of you, BACK OFF.  We stop a lot faster than you can.
Unless of course it is some clown on a brainless brakeless fixie...
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"I would rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned." Richard Feynman

ev4n

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Today I learned that Akima is bikesnobaus.   :P
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bhtooefr

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She hasn't talked about crabon saddles rubbing on scranuses yet, though.
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Barmymoo

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I rode a fixie with backpedal brakes all summer when I lived in the States. Frankly it was terrifying the first few times, but I survived it and got pretty good at stopping. At the time I was deeply offended when Eed followed me in her car to church the first morning I cycled (I think I felt patronised - relevant: I was on the wrong anti-baby pills and it transpired later that summer that they were making me suicidal and sending me off my head, so I guess I was oversensitive) but in retrospect it was a sensible idea.
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

The Seldom Killer

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That's a very strong opinion.  I assume you're referring specifically to helmets?

I had the priviledge of watching a bright, likably guy repeat grade 12 after a very slow speed bike accident.  It was pretty heartbreaking.

I'm open to stats trumping anecdotes, but my personal anecdote of watching someone try to relearn what they KNEW they'd learned last year but couldn't quite remember will always influence me to wear a helmet.

No, pretty much the whole thing.

On helmets, I'm very much an advocate of free choice. A lot of people use personal stories (anecdotes doesn't really cut it for me) to campaign for helmets and I can understand that they are motivated by something that is very important to them. I absolutely respect that. However, there is a wealth of debate, studies, information, statistics and analysis, none of which genuinely supports mandatory helmet use. Furthermore, for all of the stories where someone didn't wear a helmet and it was tragic or someone did wear a helmet and it "saved their life" is the reality is that we simply do no know. The conditions on the road do not adhere to scientific testing standards and you cannot change one variable simply by the wearing or not wearing of a helmet. I have no intention of trying to take away from your personal story and your motivations, but an authority shouldn't be thinking like that. In my view they have an obligation to base their decision on facts, reasoned analysis and science. What the ASA actually did was look at the British Highway Code, see that it "recommends" that cyclists wear helmets and decided that this meant Cycling Scotland had failed in an obligation it plainly doesn't have.

Moving on to the other stuff, we know that mandating helmet use will almost definitely result in a decline in cycling numbers and the net health benefit that comes from it. On the other hand, the idea that cyclists should ride no more than 50cm from the edge of the road, that really will get people killed. It directly contravenes any Government and ACPO approved cycling training in use in the UK today.

As an update, following the response from cyclists and cycling groups across the country, the ASA has withdrawn it's ruling pending an independent review. I very much doubt it will be reinstated, at least not in it's current form.
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pwhodges

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the idea that cyclists should ride no more than 50cm from the edge of the road, that really will get people killed. It directly contravenes any Government and ACPO approved cycling training in use in the UK today.

It's also a directly anti-cycling idea, given the state of that section of the road surface in many (most?) urban areas these days.  In a road I cycle to work along, that would mean my cycling over a pothole on which I once damaged a wheel beyond repair - they "resurfaced" that road last month, which actually meant patching the part that cars drive on, and leaving the pothole near the curb untouched.  And this in a city with one of the highest levels of cycling in the UK.
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ev4n

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Furthermore, for all of the stories where someone didn't wear a helmet and it was tragic or someone did wear a helmet and it "saved their life" is the reality is that we simply do no know.

I'm pretty sure that the stats are inconclusive.

Oh, another true story.  I know a guy for whom not wearing a seatbelt in a car once saved his live.  Truth.

I'm still in favour of wearing helmets, but I'm ambivalent about regulatory bodies enforcing helmet use.

Moving on to the other stuff, we know that mandating helmet use will almost definitely result in a decline in cycling numbers

Yeah, you're going to need to bring some actual stats to the party, because that seems pretty damned implausible to me.  Why?  Because if you grow up in a world of mandatory seatbelts, it never occurs to you to not drive because seatbelts are mandatory.  Ditto bikes and helmets, sure it affects the numbers for a while, but not permenantly.
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pwhodges

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Yeah, you're going to need to bring some actual stats to the party,

Here you are.

because that seems pretty damned implausible to me.  Why?  Because if you grow up in a world of mandatory seatbelts, it never occurs to you to not drive because seatbelts are mandatory.  Ditto bikes and helmets, sure it affects the numbers for a while, but not permenantly.

Quote
There has been no recovery to pre-law levels – the trend continued downward over the next decade,

Note also the fact that the substantial fall in hospital admissions related to bicycle accidents was almost exactly equal to the drop in cycling at the same point - thus showing that helmets themselves made no significant contribution.
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ev4n

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Yeah, you're going to need to bring some actual stats to the party,

Here you are.

Thanks.

Fwiw,
(click to show/hide)
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bhtooefr

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I think you won't find long term studies that can exclude other factors - countries without mandatory helmet laws have higher cycling rates than ones that do have such laws, although they also have other factors that encourage cycling.
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pwhodges

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I was hoping for a MUCH longer duration survey.

The census data covers thirty years, some of the other data covers ten, fifteen years, or more; but some of the studies concentrate on the years immediately around the change, which is only natural.

There may be other studies; I only linked the first sensible page I found in a simple search.
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The Seldom Killer

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Yeah, you're going to need to bring some actual stats to the party,

Here you are.

Thanks.

Fwiw,
(click to show/hide)

See also the three year study in British Columbia Canada http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1103.html
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GarandMarine

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I pulled the codes at lunch (at auto zone as it happens, you East Coast types are weird again, out West you give them your driver's license, they give you the scanner and go get your own codes, here they do it for you! Madness!) Any way misfires on all six cylinders plus the random misfire code. Apparently that's commonly an issue with the plugs and wires, and can also be a sensor screen getting gunked up from shitty oil. The other primary possibilities are the coil going bad, the timing belt being off, which at my mileage needs to be changed if it hasn't been already or and this would REALLY suck, the computer being on the fritz.

So my buddy and I did some more diagnostics and decided it was probably the spark plugs causing the issues. So we replaced those, the car's still shifting a little hard now and then, but much rare and there's no power loss issues. So I believe I can stick a fork in her and call her done for now. Going to hopefully clear the codes tomorrow and then we'll see if something else pops up over the next few days.
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Lupercal

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How can you cycle on the road? It's full of cars!

If you can't keep up with the speed and flow of automotive traffic, get out of the way.

So in a city during rush hour, if the cars cant' keep up with the speed and flow of bikes, they should pull over, too, right?

This. If I get on my bike and cycle to the train station in the school-run rush, I can easily bypass about half a mile of queued traffic. Unfortunately, I do have to get on the sidewalk/pavement for some of it, as drivers seem to have this fantastic habit of seeing a cyclist coming and then moving in as close to the curb as possible so no gap exists between the vehicle and the sidewalk.

If anything this thread does completely showcase the argument that cyclists and drivers seem to be locked in. I do think that if a driver saw anything else on the road - motorcycle, horse, etc - they would have to slow down for it before overtaking.
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Redball

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In this part of Michigan, the road is shared with the occasional Amish buggy, and the overtaking motorist makes some calculations. Even if the double-yellow center lines prohibit passing, do I have enough distance/time to go around? Drivers occasionally make poor calculations, and death and injury of Amish folks is a result. At the least, it should make drivers more aware when going up a hill that they've no idea what might be stopped or slow-moving in their lane below the crest.
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Barmymoo

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I'm about to cycle for the first time in several weeks, I hope my bike is ok!
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

bhtooefr

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Mind you, Ohio has an interesting approach to solid yellow lines.

If the vehicle to be passed is going less than half the speed limit - doesn't matter what it is, it could be a bicycle, buggy, tractor, malfunctioning car, whatever - the solid yellow line functions as a broken line. (You still have to perform the pass safely, but it becomes legal to pass in a no-passing zone.)
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Redball

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That makes enormous sense. For all I know, Michigan now has a similar law. Along the same line, I was impressed years ago when driving through Yellowstone that slow-moving RVs were required to pull off the road if they have half a dozen vehicles behind them. Out here, it makes no sense to rail at slow-moving vehicles; you've have to include farm equipment with the buggies, and some of the equipment is as wide as two lanes.
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Carl-E

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Nothing strikes dread and loathing into the heart of someone running late as seeing a combine pull out in front of them...
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Grognard

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sit back and enjoy the scenery, city boy.  :D

but really, if you're VERY desperate, pulling out far enough to be seen in the side mirrors & waving out to the side, is generally considered as a 'request to pass'

Just don't wave AT the driver and DONT use just one finger.
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The Seldom Killer

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Last time a combine pulled out in front of me I did a little sprint, got behind the rear wheel and drafted it for about a mile and a half.
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ev4n

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Got a few rides in in January.  All of them in Skyrim....
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bhtooefr

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Hey, I actually got a ride in with it being -16 F last Tuesday.

Mainly because my car didn't want to start in those conditions, but hey.
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GarandMarine

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Okay so the required maintenance light came on today. The day I'm going in to the DMV. Fuck nuggets. However the light is just that, a light, that suggests you look into maintenance. So that shouldn't fuck me at the DMV.

I'm going to see about running it in for a Timing Belt change, oil change and possibly a transmission oil change. I am going to consider bringing in my own parts and oil and be like "Use my shit. Especially my filter. I wanna watch you put it in"
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Grognard

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... eh... I'd suggest a little humility.  Hard for a former Marine, i understand; but presenting the attitude of "I wanna learn by watching you put it in" will go over a lot easier than "I wanna watch you put it in because I don't trust you/ you crook".

I've actually gotten a price break on labor by being willing to stand there, hold tools and observe.

them there is my 2 cents.
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GarandMarine

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I am an asshole in my head. I am very polite to the outside world.

If I am being an asshole to you personally.... congrats you have dun fucked up good.

Any way, went to the DMV and inspection was clean. So any issues the car has now are not a "oh fuck me I can't get my fucking license plate" problem.
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I built the walls that make my life a prison, I built them all and cannot be forgiven... ...Sold my soul to carry your vendetta, So let me go before you can regret it, You've made your choice and now it's come to this, But that's price you pay when you're a monster with no name.

Grognard

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I am an asshole in my head. I am very polite to the outside world.

Moar people ought to be like this.   :-D
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ankhtahr

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I'm slowly getting used to doing more bicycle related stuff myself. I just replaced the shift cables on my bike, as I had managed to tear both within one week. But it looks like I'll need to have chain, chainwheels and cassette replaced soon. That's bad, as I can't afford it.
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ev4n

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It's mid march.  A bit of snow is gone.  Highs above freezing for most of the week.

I want to bike to work SO badly.
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ankhtahr

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after repairing my bike yesterday I tested it. I don't really know where it's nice to cycle out here, so I just took off without any real direction. I took a wrong turn and ended up cycling up the local hill. Apparently I'm out of training, because this 20 minute tour totally exhausted me. But at least on the way down I managed a maximum speed of 60km/h
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ev4n

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60 is my limit.  I can go faster, but I'm plenty nervous at 60, and try to keep it under that.
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Akima

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I set my bike's overall gearing very low, so that I can keep my cadence high climbing the steep hills in my district, so I spin out at only about 42kph in my highest gear. After that, it's just a matter of the equilibrium between gravity and wind-resistance, but I don't exceed 50kph normally. It is the posted speed limit on many of the roads I ride, anyway*. I have done 60+ on the steep approach to Roseville Bridge (60-80kph speed limit), but it was a bit scary; I'd hit the tarmac pretty hard even at 50 if I fell, and cycling gear is not like motorcycle leathers. Cyclists should consider too how readily they can stop from high speeds; bicycle brakes have traditionally not been that great, and even the most super-duper modern disk set-up still relies mainly on that tiny patch where your front tyre contacts the road surface (which is why you should fit a front brake on your fixie).

*It is a matter of some debate whether legal speed limits apply to bicycles in NSW, and I've never been able to find a definitive answer. There are those who argue that since bicycles are not required by law to be equipped with speedometers, then speed limits are "obviously" not intended to apply to bikes. That strikes me as very dubious logic. I choose to assume that speed limits apply to all vehicles on the public roads on the "equal access, equal rights, equal responsibility" basis. The Bicycle Rider's Handbook published by the state government simply says "Bicycle riders have the same rights and responsibilities on the road as other road users. There are also special road rules that only apply to bicycle riders", and none of those special rules exempts cyclists from speed-limits. Obviously limits higher than 50-60kph are academic for most riders on most bicycles most of the time (see clip below), but in my district there are sections of road with limits of 40kph and lower.
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The Seldom Killer

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The range on the triple chainset on my old road bike used to be set that I could hit about 50kph on the flat at a push in favourable conditions and still make the steep climbs in my area. It did take a couple of attempts to get up Winnats Pass in one go. That's a tricky beast of a climb though and easy to overdo it on the lower slopes and write off you're ability on the upper slopes.

The fastest I've hit on a descent is 83kph (or 51mph for our Imperial friends). I wouldn't quite call it scary but certainly requires a particular type and amount of nerve. The most dangerous bit for me wasn't the speed but the sudden desire to throw my hands in the air in victory once I broke 50mph limit. It doesn't have quite the same feel to it if you have to come to a nice sensible stop at a safe location at the side of the road before jumping around in celebration.

As for the law, in the UK, the clarification comes in the specific rules governing speed which states that it is for motorised vehicles. The rights and responsibilities as other road users is generally accepted to mean the right to be on the road, the right to priority at junctions etc and the responsibility to the safety of other road users. Therefore, the speed limit doesn't apply to cyclists. However, other cycling specific offences allow for speed to be assessed as part of behaviour and theoretically governed to one lower than the posted limit of a law enforcement officer determined it unsafe for the conditions of the road.
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Redball

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on the bus from Heathrow today I saw signs referring to "variable speed limits." Is that the same thing?
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Grognard

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the fastest I've ever been was 45mph on a 10 speed riding down a long, steep hill.

I was 16 and scared to death.
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pwhodges

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on the bus from Heathrow today I saw signs referring to "variable speed limits." Is that the same thing?

On parts of the M25 round London, and part of the M42 round Birmingham, and in some other places, the speed limit is displayed on electronic signs, and can be controlled centrally on the basis of the traffic density.  It has been found that setting a lower speed limit as the density increases helps the traffic keep moving smoothly instead of just piling into a big jam, and as a result the capacity of the road is effectively increased.  I don't know if there is any automation of the speed setting on the basis of analysis of the traffic camera images (bear in mind we have a lot of that kind of analysis - for instance, we have average speed checks across distance, based on the time elapsed between reading the same number plate at different cameras along a road; this is most commonly used at extended roadworks).
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Akima

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The city expressways and tunnels in Sydney have the same sort of system PWH describes. We have the cameras that read your number plate too, used for speed-limit enforcement, to spot unregistered/uninsured vehicles, and to enforce maximum driving-hour rules on truck-drivers. The roads have a thousand eyes...
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GarandMarine

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Creepy.

Orwell much?
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Honestly, I don't really care if the government know where my car is. In fact, I'd rather they knew, particularly if someone other than me was driving it! Given the choice between roads full of uninsured, unregistered, speeding vehicles and an automated system of computers logging numberplates, I would prefer the former. I don't think liberty for its own sake is the epitome of all goals (of course, it should only be infringed for a good reason - but I happen to consider traffic regulation to be a pretty good reason, considering one of my friends was killed in an accident involving a drunk, unlicensed driver in a stolen car).
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

GarandMarine

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I think we all agree some degree of regulation is a good thing, it's the amount of regulation where things get sticky.
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I built the walls that make my life a prison, I built them all and cannot be forgiven... ...Sold my soul to carry your vendetta, So let me go before you can regret it, You've made your choice and now it's come to this, But that's price you pay when you're a monster with no name.

pwhodges

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Given the choice between roads full of uninsured, unregistered, speeding vehicles and an automated system of computers logging numberplates, I would prefer the former.

Latter, surely!
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pwhodges

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I think we all agree some degree of regulation is a good thing, it's the amount of regulation where things get sticky.

And that, quite simply, depends on the degree to which society can trust its members to keep to the agreed laws.
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"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

GarandMarine

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Given the choice between roads full of uninsured, unregistered, speeding vehicles and an automated system of computers logging numberplates, I would prefer the former.

Latter, surely!

It is worth pointing out the options here, police state vs. anarchy is a bit hyperbolic
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I built the walls that make my life a prison, I built them all and cannot be forgiven... ...Sold my soul to carry your vendetta, So let me go before you can regret it, You've made your choice and now it's come to this, But that's price you pay when you're a monster with no name.

Barmymoo

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Given the choice between roads full of uninsured, unregistered, speeding vehicles and an automated system of computers logging numberplates, I would prefer the former.

Latter, surely!

Haha yes, brain fart moment there.
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

ev4n

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I know people who got speeding tickets on their bikes in my hometown.  The town is nestled between a large lake and a reasonbly high hill, and the roads down the hill were all fast.  One of them was even out of the way, but if bikes had trouble doing 50km/h down it, I can't imagine how cars ever succeeded.
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GarandMarine

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On a side note, my vehicle's transmission issue has cleared up with the use of some fluid restorative and the return of weather that is less then balls cold.
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I built the walls that make my life a prison, I built them all and cannot be forgiven... ...Sold my soul to carry your vendetta, So let me go before you can regret it, You've made your choice and now it's come to this, But that's price you pay when you're a monster with no name.

bhtooefr

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Nothing quite like cycling into a stiff headwind on a ~45 pound trike with ~20-30 lbs of groceries on the back...
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Akima

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It just makes you stronger!
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ev4n

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Rode about 4km with a kid on Saturday.  Weather is about to diver, but 95% of our snow is gone, so the bike thing is imminent.   8-)
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bhtooefr

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Fffffffuuuuuuuuuu.

Tweaked one of the fenders on my trike when I was carrying it outside, and APPARENTLY shoved the fender mounting bolts up against the sidewall of one of my tires. And, these tires have really thin, supple sidewalls to reduce rolling resistance and improve ride comfort, because they don't need as strong sidewalls as a standard bicycle tire has (the thing isn't riding on the sides of the tread after all).

About 4.5 mi into my ride, and 4 mi from home, got a slow flat. Headed for a safe location, found what happened, and decided to see what I could do with a replacement tube. The sidewall damage was enough that even with a little air, it started bulging, so I deflated it, stuck a $5 in where it was bulging, and then partially inflated it, and rode home, being careful to miss all the potholes. Even hit 19.5 mph when I was trying to keep up with traffic, and it was... fine.

And, the manufacturer's US site is out of stock, although I did find that a trike dealer in Utah had four in stock, so I ordered two from them. (Realizing how easy these are to shred, I figure keeping a spare at home isn't a bad idea.)
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