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Author Topic: Arcade Fire Wins Grammy, prompting Americans to wonder who they are anyway  (Read 30531 times)

Lummer

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I guess this is what a D&D player would call "multiclassing".

Goddamnit Jens I love you.
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NotAFanOfFenders

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Scandinavian manhugs all around!
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tommydski

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Scandinavian manhugs

Would see this band.

Would probably not rent this adult feature film.
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Johnny C

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I guess this is what a D&D player would call "multiclassing".

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Plus they don't actually do the live shows or touring, which I think is fairly integral.

Wait, what?

So only bands that play live are independent? Can you support/justify/explain this?
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Scandanavian War Machine

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yeah, some of the most independent bands i can think of don't play shows. that might even be part of what makes them so independent, but that's kind of a whole other thing that i'm not sure we need to talk about or not.

first thing that comes to mind is Jason The Swamp (and by extension, his record label Rack & Ruin, which is a great label, btw)because he's just some dude layering himself playing various instruments and singing over the top of each other, which doesn't always work in a live setting.
I don't know for a fact that he doesn't play shows, but I don't think he does.

and he's the indiest thing i listen to, not to mention one of the best


tommy, i think you are pretty smart (definitely smarter than me) but it really seems like you are living in the past here with some weirdly rigid ideas that are no longer really relevant 100% of the time. i definitely agree with alot of what you say, but i think you might just be flat-out wrong about the big picture here, despite many of your arguments being correct, or at least sensible.
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tommydski

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So only bands that play live are independent? Can you support/justify/explain this?

Nah, like I said it's a system of strikes and I think playing live is something basically everybody should do regardless. It's not a deal-breaker though.

Incidentally, who doesn't play live at all? I'm drawing a blank right now.
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Lupercal

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I understand if a band does records, tours a bit then retires from touring...but to not tour at all seems weird. Thats what its about isn't it? From an artistic point of view you want to connect with those people who went out and purchased your album. There's only so many "thank you" blog posts you can do before fans won't care anymore. I find it hard to believe people don't think touring is an integral part of a band being...well, a band. Seeing some bands live are pretty intense experiences, so to even accept a dismantling of that connection with the music seems strange to me. Whether its the right thing for an indie band to do or not is pretty irrelevant. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I get into a new band and enjoy and album, the next thing I'm thinking is "shit this is good, when will I be able to see it live?".

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Scandanavian War Machine

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I don't think touring is essential to anything, except playing shows.

Like I said, Jason The Swamp is one of my favorite musical acts in existence right now (top 5 easy, maybe top 3) and I don't think he plays shows.

We're living in a modern/futuristic world here and playing a show is no longer 1/3 of the of ways to get heard. So it's not necessary for everyone. Especially if you don't care about money, like Rack & Ruin records.

The way I see it is you make music that you like, and that you hope other people will like, and you figure out how to get that music to them. Used to be you had to drive to their town to play, or get on the radio, or word of mouth. Now we have the internet.

I'm not saying this is a common or popular model or anything, but it's definitely a possible way of doing things.


and i mean we're all bringing our own biases into this anyway so maybe it's a pointless discussion. personally i don't really care about going to shows, so I'm more than satisfied just listening to music at my leisure. obviously this affects my position on it
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Also I would like to point out that the combination of Sailor Moon and faux-Kerouac / Sonic Youth spelling is perhaps the purest distillation of what this forum is that we have yet been presented with.

KharBevNor

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Thats what its about isn't it?

It's about creating music. Everything else is ancillary. I hate to use the term 'rockist' but that's kinda the vibe I'm getting here. Like, music should be made heroically through manual effort and this effort should be proved on the stage. People just putting together tunes in their bedroom are somehow not real, they lack a certain essential quality. They should play live even if they have to recruit like five extra musicians, buy extra gear etc. or even if it's just someone sitting with a laptop pressing 'play'? Like, most of my music, there is no performative element at all, I never designed the stuff to be played live, so why would I do it?
 
As for bands and artists that don't play live, many black metal bands (including some pretty big ones ie Burzum, Xasthur), many electronic artists of various genres, lots of one-person projects in general. Some people start touring after years or only tour very sparsely. Jandek and Coil come to mind; both projects existed for decades before there were any live shows. Did those artists suddenly become more real because they played live? Conversely, people like Scott Walker, Kate Bush and Rudimentary Peni haven't played live for years. Are they now less real?

Like seriously there is no way live performance should be integral to being a band or a musician any more than being on a record label or releasing music as albums, ie not at all.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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JD

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though they are obviously big in Canada too.
Well they did come form Montreal
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Lupercal

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Thats what its about isn't it?

It's about creating music. Everything else is ancillary. I hate to use the term 'rockist' but that's kinda the vibe I'm getting here. Like, music should be made heroically through manual effort and this effort should be proved on the stage. People just putting together tunes in their bedroom are somehow not real, they lack a certain essential quality. They should play live even if they have to recruit like five extra musicians, buy extra gear etc. or even if it's just someone sitting with a laptop pressing 'play'? Like, most of my music, there is no performative element at all, I never designed the stuff to be played live, so why would I do it?
 
As for bands and artists that don't play live, many black metal bands (including some pretty big ones ie Burzum, Xasthur), many electronic artists of various genres, lots of one-person projects in general. Some people start touring after years or only tour very sparsely. Jandek and Coil come to mind; both projects existed for decades before there were any live shows. Did those artists suddenly become more real because they played live? Conversely, people like Scott Walker, Kate Bush and Rudimentary Peni haven't played live for years. Are they now less real?

Like seriously there is no way live performance should be integral to being a band or a musician any more than being on a record label or releasing music as albums, ie not at all.

Not at all, I wasn't trying to suggest that those who make music in their basement are somehow less valid as an artist. Like I said, for me the music totally speaks for itself - I don't really care how it comes to me, music is the enjoyable creative aspect of it all. I was simply stating that, as traditionalist as it may seem, touring is an important part of the music. Yes, you can reach thousands of people through LPs, but from a band point of view touring gives that ability of getting your fans together, people celebrating  your music in person, with a physical presence, so that they don't just become another number on a chart saying how many records you've sold.

I might be wrong, but isn't it said nowadays that touring brings in money for the artist while records just generate money for the record company?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying every band that has ever put out an album NEEDS to tour. If it is totally unnecessary for a band to do it then I wouldn't say "become bankrupt so that I can see you". But I guess I'm talking in more of an actual band format, where the songs that they write can be performed. For example, bands like Rush have a shit-load of sequencers and arrangements that they manage to pull off in a live show. Other bands make it so that the studio albums are polished while the live renditions carry a more raw and primitive quality.

One person projects is obviously a different category altogether, but I refuse to be labelled as some antecedent, ignorant person who quesitons the reality of a band based on their live performance. They are not "less real" if they don't tour, but for me, personally, it is something I would normally expect. We are in a totally different era now and yes, touring is not the only way to get noticed. But I think it is essential to get a proper band-fan connection established. Many people here would say that they were blown away, surprised, etc by bands that they've seen live, a totally unexpected 3 hours of their life that they don't forget in a hurry. An album only gives you so much of that experience. This experience is not really quantifiable and me trying to justify it seems pretty redundant but for me, in my opinion, touring is a vital part of a band's progression.

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JimmyJazz

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Placeholder for future obligatory Rush joke
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Lupercal

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Placeholder for future obligatory Rush joke

Hey man, Geddy Lee is like, cool.

Okay he's not but Rush certainly proved all those wrong who considered Dungeons and Dragons, Mathematics, and Rock music to be unmixable.
« Last Edit: 17 Feb 2011, 19:03 by Lupercal »
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JimmyJazz

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I'm pretty sure you just encapsulated the reasons Rush are the archetypal example of why prog is fucking terrible.

also Geddy Lee's vocals are some of the most painful sounds ever forced upon human ears
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Duck Tales

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In Australia they're distributed/advertised by one of our largest indie labels, Spunk. Only a handful of uni students and adults know who they are.
Sorry it's from a page ago but Spunk is in no way a largely distributed/advertised indie label. They're distributed/advertised through EMI.
Plenty of people know about them and the only reason they didn't chart higher was because EMI didn't produce enough copies in the first run so stores sold out and couldn't get it back in stock for a month. It's still hard to get stock because EMI can't get the right case and barcode stocked. It's all on EMI. They're big on pitchfork and UK magazines aimed at dads so they have a large chunk of the market covered.
It's stupid trying to compare indies in Australia because the labels have made deals with labels who made deals with labels . Correct me if i'm wrong but Domino is an indie in the UK? In Australia they're through Sony. The majors take more of the indies than you know. You're not that indie....sorry


Anyway..Rush..A bunch of dunces








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JimmyJazz

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If you like people masturbating on stage, I guess so
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2011, 07:10 by JimmyJazz »
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David_Dovey

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Yeah it's not like every genre has shitty examples
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Indie-kids shitting on prog?

Really?
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tommydski

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No, just Rush.
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Lupercal

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Might as well throw it out there that I actually like Rush. But if am to adhere to the current trend of stating my opinions as facts, then I will say Rush are a good band, but Prog itself is, as a genre, testy (and therefore not for everyone).

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JimmyJazz

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Hey I actually do like some prog! I just find a lot of it to be dreck and most of the prog aesthetic doesn't really align with how I feel about music. Rush in particular irk me a lot, but I don't actually hate them as people or prog fans in general. The bands and the fans clearly love the music and think about it critically, and the great thing about music is the enormous diversity of the art form and of people's opinions of it.

p.s. In the Court of the Crimson King is an awesome record
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NotAFanOfFenders

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I guess I don't understand how 'honesty' and simplicity, being 'independent' or not has anything to do with the music that's actually being put out. Song-complexity, musical wanking and all that shit has nothing to do with why I like prog, or tech-death or anything else. Some (yes, some) Hipsters/indiekids seem to worry a lot about this shit, without actually caring that much about the actual musical output.

I just don't get how some people see prog as this collection of egocentric bastards, playing 'inaccessible' music. Do some people have some kind of distaste for 'weird' time signatures and non-pentatonic/minor scales?
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JimmyJazz

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Of course not! Prog isn't the only genre to integrate "weird" time signatures and non-pentatonic/minor scales in its music, and it's not like I hate prog necessarily because of its complexities. I just personally find a lot of prog boring and  often quite humorous but I have no problem with other people liking it. It's just taste! If everyone liked the same thing, music would be dull and nothing would progress. I added that I liked that King Crimson album at the end of my last post to illustrate that I am familiar with the genre and enjoy some of it as well.
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2011, 20:41 by JimmyJazz »
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NotAFanOfFenders

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Oh, I wasn't really implying that you were one of the people unnecessarily hating on the entire genre. Digging 'In the Court...' gives you massive cool points in my book.
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tommydski

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I guess I don't understand how 'honesty' and simplicity, being 'independent' or not has anything to do with the music that's actually being put out.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of music being put out, as has been stressed over and over in this thread.

Rush are indisputably super nice dudes. They also had their own label a long, long time before this kind of thing was common. In that sense they were trail-blazers of independent music and they inspired some good bands.

However, their music is terrible.
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KharBevNor

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Especially when you can make music that doesn't suck as well!

Although the version of the track without Rick Wakeman is much better.

Is this now a prog thread? In keeping with the prog-rock/folk thing already established, I have been listening to this track compulsively over the last few weeks. Listen to it and if you think it is bad you have to shoot yourself, or at least admit that music isn't for you.

Comus - Drip Drip
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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Johnny C

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if you think it is bad you have to shoot yourself

funny, this is usually my advice for fans of prog
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KharBevNor

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Man normally we disagree, but yeah, totally.

If you think prog is bad, shoot yourself.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

KharBevNor

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But only with like a Nerf gun or something, you silly doofus!

 :-D

It's all fun and gaaaames.


EDIT: JC did you enjoy that Comus track? It ain't got any black dudes from the deep south so fucked up on cough syrup they can't speak straight or any Canadian art school graduates playing home-made guitars but I am trying my desperate best.
« Last Edit: 20 Feb 2011, 06:36 by KharBevNor »
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

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if you think it is bad you have to shoot yourself

funny, this is usually my advice for fans of prog

Hahahahahah it's funny because you think people should die for listening to music hahahahahahaha
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KharBevNor

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Well I mean some people should definitely be shot for listening to music. Just not so sweeping.

For example are you telling me the world wouldn't be a better place if we culled 12% of the fans of the Lithuanian hardcore band 33% kiaulių pakeliui į Vatikaną?
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Johnny C

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if you think it is bad you have to shoot yourself

funny, this is usually my advice for fans of prog

Hahahahahah it's funny because you think people should die for listening to music hahahahahahaha

yes
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Johnny C

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thought that was obvious enough it didn't even need remarking
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NotAFanOfFenders

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Wait, Some people* judge others based on the music they listen to? They* must not have many friends. I mean, music is a big part of my life, both writing and listening, but I don't really give shit about what others listen to. One reason why I don't give a shit about bitching about whatever tastes are (un)popular.

Seriously though, Khar. Stop bothering yourself with what other people (I assume) listen to.


*= :mrgreen:
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imagist42

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  • more post-coital, less post-rock

Seriously man, stop bothering yourself with what Khar says about what other people listen to.
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imagist42

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haha what

jens wins the board forever
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KharBevNor

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Seriously though, Khar. Stop bothering yourself with what other people (I assume) listen to.

This is where I lose track of what the hell is going on here.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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scarred

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KharBevNor

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How suspicious that a rock band can pick up their instruments and just play a song! Conspiracy!
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Johnny C

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justin bieber, the true definition of "modern artist"
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Johnny C

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i mean i legitimately enjoy justin bieber's music but i'm also realistic about it, you know
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Eminiem, the true Bob Dylan of our time.
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That was also the thing about that article that stuck out to me the most.

So, this guy thinks the grammys should be a popularity contest?  I always thought the general consensus was that it was too much of one...

confusion.
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I'm not sure even he understands his own reasoning.
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Is that the manager who everybody seems to agree is a douchebag?
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Lupercal

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Don't know what the general consensus is, but he doesn't seem like that much of a douche to me.
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