Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

  • 01 Dec 2021, 20:22
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: women and music  (Read 36001 times)

KvP

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,720
  • COME DOWN NOW
Re: women and music
« Reply #100 on: 02 Mar 2011, 14:42 »

I wouldn't suggest that "Fucked if you do, fucked if you don't" isn't something that a man in feminist discourse legitimately feels. There is a lot of real frustration and conflict with trying to live out feminist ideals as a man, that's part of recognizing and mitigating privilege. But is a resignation, not a justification, for disregarding the issues that it raises. You're not saying "This is impossible", you're saying "This is too hard", or perhaps more accurately, "I am being asked to give more than I am comfortable with". The trick is holding people accountable while not being a harsh taskmaster, but also not treating them like children.
Logged
I review, sometimes.
Quote from: Andy
I love this vagina store!
Quote from: Andy
SNEAKY
I sneak that shit
And liek
OMG DICK JERK

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #101 on: 02 Mar 2011, 14:46 »

Most women I know basically despise feminism, partly because they are woefully misinformed about the entire concept and partly because they don't realise how irreparably insidious patriarchy is.

As a male, it's difficult to argue with women who think this without becoming part of the problem again. I take more of an interest in feminism than most women but at the point where I'm telling them what to do or believe, my contribution has essentially become counter-productive. That's more or less why despite having roughly 98% accord with feminism, I wouldn't ever call myself a feminist. I can act how I think it appropriate for things to improve but I can't really do any more than that.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: women and music
« Reply #102 on: 02 Mar 2011, 15:09 »

feminisms

i don't think a conversation about feminism with a woman who doesn't like or agree with it because she's misinformed has to be about telling her what to believe. i think it just has to be about maybe why you believe it's worthwhile. also i had similar reasoning for not calling myself a feminist (i.e. i am literally patriarchy walking) but feminists i explained that to (and also like dudes who face oppression e.g. a native american guy from one of my classes) kept getting mad at me about it and insisted that i not use that as an excuse for not being a feminist so now whatever fuck it i'm a feminist and proud of it

Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #103 on: 02 Mar 2011, 16:01 »

I agree with those people, really.  I am a minority male who self identifies as a feminist and I really don't see a problem with that.  I don't know who these women are that give you shit for being a progressive human being but that's ridiculous.  Identifying as a feminist doesn't mean you have to have an answer to non-feminists and it doesn't mean you have to be a "perfect" feminist.  But I feel like if you support women's rights and recognize that the "system" (be it societal or whatever) isn't perfect and is still skewed to enable men more than women, you're doing fine and you don't need to pretend to be anything else. 
Logged

pwhodges

  • Admin emeritus
  • Awakened
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,932
  • I'll only say this once...
    • My home page
Re: women and music
« Reply #104 on: 02 Mar 2011, 16:12 »

I'm a humanist.

The thing with specific -isms  is that to be worthwhile they must be transitional; they succeed by not needing to exist.  Of course, I realise that they can have partial successes by improving matters on the way.
Logged
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #105 on: 02 Mar 2011, 16:41 »

I agree with that in theory but it doesn't really hold up realistically.  For example, a person that aligns with a conservative philosophy could consider themselves a "humanist," but support an abortion ban.  This would not be typically considered in line with "feminist" ideology (so far as I understand it).  While they may believe they support something that is best for "human beings," it may not work out that way to someone else who would simply consider themselves a "humanist."

I am IN NO WAY trying to incite an abortion debate, it's simply the easiest example I could come up with.

 
Logged

KvP

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,720
  • COME DOWN NOW
Re: women and music
« Reply #106 on: 02 Mar 2011, 16:53 »

Goin' back a bit
I'm not gonna retrench arguments that were already made perfectly clear in Radical AC's posts upthread, but I will suggest you go ahead and GIS the Top 40/100/200/whatever bands in the charts right now, and -more pointedly- your favourite bands (it's oretty safe to assume that the Top 40 crowd and you don't have many picks in common if you're posting here) and tell me how many legitimately unattractive people you see.


Also Jonny Greenwood's got a funny-shaped head.
Logged
I review, sometimes.
Quote from: Andy
I love this vagina store!
Quote from: Andy
SNEAKY
I sneak that shit
And liek
OMG DICK JERK

nufan

  • Pneumatic ratchet pants
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 304
Re: women and music
« Reply #107 on: 02 Mar 2011, 17:18 »

(i.e. i am literally patriarchy walking)

Really interested to know what you mean by this. Do you mean you have a family and you are the breadwinner, or this is what you are expected to be, or is this what you want? I mean, the latter two are mostly choices and you don't sound too keen on patriarchy, and from what I've gathered being on these boards you're not the former.
Logged

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,687
  • j'accuse!
Re: women and music
« Reply #108 on: 02 Mar 2011, 19:47 »

Goin' back a bit [...]

Literally was thinking of Radiohead the entire time I was writing that post.
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: women and music
« Reply #109 on: 03 Mar 2011, 06:58 »

Really interested to know what you mean by this. Do you mean you have a family and you are the breadwinner, or this is what you are expected to be, or is this what you want? I mean, the latter two are mostly choices and you don't sound too keen on patriarchy, and from what I've gathered being on these boards you're not the former.

no i mean i'm a white hetero male so almost every system of social interaction that exists in the world privileges me. all i'm missing is being the son of someone in the top tax bracket in the country

I agree with those people, really.  I am a minority male who self identifies as a feminist and I really don't see a problem with that.  I don't know who these women are that give you shit for being a progressive human being but that's ridiculous.

no you misread me they gave me shit for having a feminist viewpoint but not calling myself a feminist just because i'm a man, they said it's ultimately way more beneficial if i just straight-up call me a feminist and explain to people why
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Elysiana

  • 1-800-SCABIES
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 838
  • Make me Fibonacci
Re: women and music
« Reply #110 on: 03 Mar 2011, 07:21 »

The word "feminism" already carries strong connotations - both positive and negative. A lot of that has to do with the fact that, as in so many other things, the vocal overzealous minority tend to overshadow the majority. I have known women who have gotten downright angry at men who call themselves feminists because they "couldn't possibly understand" what women are going through. My university used to have Take Back The Night rallies (sexual assault awareness campaign) and there were often quite a few men there... at least at the beginning. When groups of women starting gathering on the steps of buildings and calling out cruel names and practically spitting on any man that walked by, the number of men who were there to support the cause dwindled rapidly.

I think what Paul said about being a humanist rang true with me - I don't know if he meant the same thing I do, but to call it "feminism" has always struck me as suggesting that women should be treated better than men, not just equal. Possibly that's because there ARE a lot of feminists who believe that (as I said, the vocal overzealous minority) and that's tainted it for me. Feminism shouldn't mean misandry but it's often seen that way (or, too often, IS that way), which is sad.
Logged

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: women and music
« Reply #111 on: 03 Mar 2011, 07:23 »

yeah but it's not about misandry it's about equity – and paul's point about "transitional" still applies to feminism in a world where the manufacturing industry in juarez, mexico operates the way it does
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #112 on: 03 Mar 2011, 08:09 »

I agree with those people, really.  I am a minority male who self identifies as a feminist and I really don't see a problem with that.  I don't know who these women are that give you shit for being a progressive human being but that's ridiculous.

no you misread me they gave me shit for having a feminist viewpoint but not calling myself a feminist just because i'm a man, they said it's ultimately way more beneficial if i just straight-up call me a feminist and explain to people why

Actually that was my fault for writing in haste, I was addressing Tommy, who, to my assumption from what he said, seems to catch grief from women when he identifies as a feminist.

I was talking with Mary, my girlfriend, about this last night and one thing she noted is that it's foolish for women to "exclude men" from feminism.  Feminism doesn't work as a "transitional movement" without the support of EVERYone.  This obviously can only include men. 
Logged

Elysiana

  • 1-800-SCABIES
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 838
  • Make me Fibonacci
Re: women and music
« Reply #113 on: 03 Mar 2011, 08:28 »

Johnny - that's exactly what I'm saying. The problem arises when people SEE it as misandry. Technically it is not, but it's gotten that name due to a few bad eggs. Which is really too bad, because they're only making their journey toward equality that much harder.
Logged

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #114 on: 03 Mar 2011, 13:04 »

Actually that was my fault for writing in haste, I was addressing Tommy, who, to my assumption from what he said, seems to catch grief from women when he identifies as a feminist.

No, it was more I felt disenfranchised in myself. I never called myself a feminist because I used to live with active feminists who hated the appropriation of what they viewed as their liberation movement. Try as you might to be sympathetic, you're never going to fully understand all the subtleties and nuances of actually being a female and thus, you're not really going to be able to think and act the same way.

The main concern is that there will be a point whereby women won't become involved in the debate because it seems like yet another male-dominated environment. Now I only really hear men talking about feminism and again, they seem to be the most persistent, loud and confident so it makes me feel like we've reached that tipping point. Women who are outside of feminism are either content with the level of progress, uninterested in the debate, actively disagree with feminism/other strains of feminism or just see the whole thing as deeply convoluted by the interference of men. Regardless, there came to be a point in my life whereby I realised that as a man, there's very few ways I can actively benefit the feminist cause in myself, short of acting pro-feminist and encouraging other men to do the same.

I suppose it's also because my pro-feminism is largely hypothetical in that I don't really do anything more than the bare minimum and thus, can't really claim to be doing much in terms of actively helping women secure equality. I try to keep my interactions with women as respectable as possible but I'm not sure I do enough to warrant special dispensation.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #115 on: 03 Mar 2011, 14:48 »

Quote from: Jens
I don't quite see the connection between not being a woman (as a result, obviously not knowing what it's like to be a woman) and feeling you're misapprehending the term "feminist" - the term doesn't necessarily imply you're trying to know or understand what it's like to be a woman.

No, I'm not misapprehending anything. We have different opinions of the relationship between men and feminism, which is fine. I've met many different people claiming to be feminists and after over a quarter of a century of consideration, the ones I agree with are those who think that men can't be feminists. By all means believe whatever you want but don't delude yourself into thinking that this is something I've merely dabbled in. I wouldn't advise going around saying that your opinion is definitive on this matter either because there isn't a concrete definition.

Put it this way - I've met a lot of men who claim to be feminists and I'm more suspicious and harder on them than men who merely consider themselves to be pro-feminist because for the most part the former don't really seem to understand all the connotations of the term. I'll accept that I'm biased by my own experiences but it's an honest opinion nonetheless.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #116 on: 03 Mar 2011, 14:57 »

There are some pretty significant connotative differences between "(female) feminist" and "male feminist" - the latter implies deep sympathy towards the former, rather than an empathic attempt to coopt the term "feminism". (The maleness doesn't even have to be stated, it's obvious through, well, you being a guy.)

This is one definition. Another is that it is an attempt to co-opt the term feminism for whatever reason, usually an ignoble one. Seen it a thousand times, doesn't get any better each time.

Seeing feminism as a girls-only club just seems extremely counterproductive when the problem is systemic in a male-dominated society, it exacerbates the sense a lot of guys have that feminism is a problem only women have, rather than an intrinsic flaw in entire societal structures that encompass members of all genders, a problem for everyone, not just the women.

It's a male problem. Understanding this is why I won't sully the word feminist with my interpretation of what it is to be a woman.

plus, you know, judging by JC's words above there are also feminists who think it's being overly cautious to say you aren't a feminist as a dude, and frankly if it has a chance of making feminist ideas extend further into staunchly male territory, I think I'll risk it, so be it if some people get mad at me.

Rather than "cautious", think of it as respectful.

If you've made up your mind on all this, fine. It still makes me think maybe you've never been in a position whereby you had to tell a woman who was indisputably an active feminist that she was wrong and that your definition is stronger and purer than hers despite the fact that you're not a woman. I have and I like to remember that.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,687
  • j'accuse!
Re: women and music
« Reply #117 on: 03 Mar 2011, 15:46 »

I'm really not seeing the point where being a male and labeling yrself a "feminist" irrevocably turns into

a position whereby you had to tell a woman who was indisputably an active feminist that she was wrong and that your definition is stronger and purer than hers despite the fact that you're not a woman

In fact it seems positively counter-intuitive to what someone would do if they took feminism seriously/weren't a dick
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #118 on: 03 Mar 2011, 15:52 »

Men definitely feminists, says man.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: women and music
« Reply #119 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:03 »

no i think he's saying that those don't have to be arguments and in fact (in my experience which i mean is in a gender studies department so different but not by any means limited) often aren't arguments, and they don't necessarily have that endpoint
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #120 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:13 »

If you've seriously never encountered any feminists who have trouble with the co-opting of the word by men, you've probably not had much experience of different factions of feminism.

One day you might encounter one of the hundreds of thousands of women who neither want nor acknowledge the inclusion of men.

When it happens, presumably you'll just tell them they're wrong.

Or maybe they're not.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #121 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:25 »

"A co-opting or less frequently co-optation most commonly refers to action performed in a number of fields whereby an opponent is nullified or neutralized by absorption but there are other distinct senses as well."

What male feminist does that?  Are you saying that is the interpretation? 

I dunno, I feel like I maybe understand where you're coming from, but also mostly not at all.  I guess I don't know what I would do if I encountered a female who shunned me for being someone who supports her rights as a female, but I would probably not make it seem as though I or my views on what feminism is are superior to hers.  Luckily I have not found myself in that situation, I guess. 
Logged

Yunior

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
Re: women and music
« Reply #122 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:38 »

No, it was more I felt disenfranchised in myself. I never called myself a feminist because I used to live with active feminists who hated the appropriation of what they viewed as their liberation movement. Try as you might to be sympathetic, you're never going to fully understand all the subtleties and nuances of actually being a female and thus, you're not really going to be able to think and act the same way.

I've never really understood this hang-up and maybe you can explain it to me. Why does not fully understanding the "female experience" preclude you from identifying as a feminist? I feel like, yeah, obviously there are some fundamental biological differences and, stemming from that, certain societal expectations that each of us respond to, consciously or otherwise, depending on our gender. But I don't feel like there is some sort of immutable experience of gender. I don't feel like because I am a woman, I understand all women or that I can speak for all women as an authority on the experience of being a woman. I also feel, in a way, as if you are almost not giving yourself enough credit. You know that women, being primarily human, eat, sleep, and do any number of other human things. You also do a lot of those same things; you don't have to sympathize with an experience that you don't understand because a lot of that experience is bridgeable. And when those experiences aren't bridge-able (like you probably are never gonna grow a baby inside yourself or get followed home by a crazy-looking fellow), then yeah, of course, that is a good place to defer to someone who knows what's up.

Also, with respect to the risk of making feminism another male-dominated sphere -- maybe I'm too new to it, but I've honestly never met any loud-mouth-man-feminists. I have met precious few male feminists, and a few more thoughtful men who wouldn't think to use the label/don't label themselves as feminist for any number of (fairly problematic) reasons but who none-the-less appear to me to be thinking critically about women's issues. And they are, by and large, doing a lot more listening than talking (anecdotal generalization what what). I guess I am curious if when you say "male-dominated sphere" if you are talking about the risk of becoming male-dominated applying to academia in specific, or in a broader sense, culturally or something?

Shifting gears back to the original topic, I remember when I was young (Clara the Pre-Teen era or thereabouts) I went to this friend's birthday party that had boys at it, possibly the first boy-girl party I'd gone to since toddlerhood (that's probably a gross exaggeration, but anyways it was a very big deal to the birthday girl that boys were there and I did remember it feeling sort of new somehow), and anyways I was talking to this one boy about the White Stripes and he was like, "Man I love them, but that girl can't drum" followed by a general "Can girls play music?" soliloquy. And I remember I was like, "Heh, yeah" and sort of wracking my brain for some sort of counterexample and feeling suddenly woefully unlearned about what good drumming is or is not. I did not tell him that I thought he was wrong about his "girls playing music" ideas or that I didn't like the White Stripes or even that I played piano for several years and could probably out-music him and whatever lame guitar tabs he learned on the internet. Which is to say, the language of female inadequacy can make even bright, competent women shut up, and it's an important thing to keep in mind and consciously work against. So, there.
Logged
[02:00] Dollface: clara you are awesome
[02:00] clara: oh thanks dollface
[02:00] Dollface: whos awesome you are clara

Yunior

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
Re: women and music
« Reply #123 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:41 »

Okay yeah and five posts just posted while I wrote that addressing basically the same issue, I feel better now.
Logged
[02:00] Dollface: clara you are awesome
[02:00] clara: oh thanks dollface
[02:00] Dollface: whos awesome you are clara

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #124 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:42 »

What male feminist does that?

The vocal majority who do it for reasons which are absolutely at odds with feminism. The assholes who take courses on women's studies to be in a class which will be predominantly females. The frustrated pseudo-paternal ultra-patronising males who definitely know more than mere women do about being female. The suspiciously super duper sex-positive men who are looking for a positive spin on their porn addictions. Mother fetishists who are looking for surrogate female acceptance in the face of social disinterest from sensible women. I could go on and on and on.

I'm not saying there are no good pro-feminist men, I'm just saying that in my experience they are an absolute minority. I'd prefer it if men didn't use the term because it's sapping attention from more pertinent debates.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #125 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:56 »

that is a good place to defer to someone who knows what's up.

That's exactly what I mean. Fundamentally, we're all human beings but there are crucial differences between the genders too. I don't think a man can honestly claim to understand being a women and thus, I think they should defer on all matters which differentiate the sexes. We're talking literally the difference between men using the term feminist (which they are bizarrely adamant about being allowed to use, you notice?) and another slightly more respectable, dare I say it, modest term like pro-feminist, profeminist or feminist sympathiser etc.

Also, with respect to the risk of making feminism another male-dominated sphere -- maybe I'm too new to it, but I've honestly never met any loud-mouth-man-feminists.

Lucky you. An absolute majority of men I meet who claim to be feminists are out and out charlatans, hence my distaste.

I guess I am curious if when you say "male-dominated sphere" if you are talking about the risk of becoming male-dominated applying to academia in specific, or in a broader sense, culturally or something?

I mean the entire subject becomes consumed by primarily male opinions, so we miss out on the vital female perspective. Men are usually more diligent, stubborn and generally louder in discussions because they for whatever reasons, liberally minded males seem very keen to be seen as being extra feminist.

I'm not saying don't call yourself a feminist if you're a man, I'm saying I don't and won't in the future because I've met a lot of very active feminists who found it offensive.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Yunior

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
Re: women and music
« Reply #126 on: 03 Mar 2011, 17:36 »

I'm not saying don't call yourself a feminist if you're a man, I'm saying I don't and won't in the future because I've met a lot of very active feminists who found it offensive.

I can definitely appreciate that you are choosing to represent yourself in a certain way, but I sort of wonder if this line of thinking doesn't hit a wall somehow? Like I personally, as a feminist, wished feminism would evolve to create a space/role for men -- as good fathers, good partners, good colleagues, etc. -- because I feel like so many of the practical, day-to-day issues facing women today (domestic abuse/rape, wage gaps, reproductive rights) would lessen if we put the onus on men to stop thinking of women as lesser or other and to recognize they are deserving of respect and fair treatment in both public and private spheres. Doesn't that sort of mean, by trying not to step on the toes of feminists you know and agree with, you are stepping on my toes?

It's obvious you've thought about it and I'm not trying to convince you of using the label if it's not for you. It's just, to be completely honest, when I meet some man who could potentially label himself as feminist and he chooses not to, it kind of registers to me as a cop-out somehow (I am probably a lot like Johnny C's friends in that way?). I'm not accusing you of copping out, it's just

I invited you to a party and you didn't go and my feelings got hurt  :-(
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2011, 17:43 by Yunior »
Logged
[02:00] Dollface: clara you are awesome
[02:00] clara: oh thanks dollface
[02:00] Dollface: whos awesome you are clara

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #127 on: 03 Mar 2011, 18:21 »

Like I personally, as a feminist, wished feminism would evolve to create a space/role for men -- as good fathers, good partners, good colleagues, etc. -- because I feel like so many of the practical, day-to-day issues facing women today (domestic abuse/rape, wage gaps, reproductive rights) would lessen if we put the onus on men to stop thinking of women as lesser or other and to recognize they are deserving of respect and fair treatment in both public and private spheres.

This.

And, yeah, guys who take women's studies classes to "pick up chicks" are fucking pricks, since when has there never been a fucking prick within a movement that doesn't represent it.

To this logic, white people should not support equality among races and just keep their mouths shut and never try to take Black/African American Studies courses in college to educate themselves?  Sorry, I'm really not buying any of that at all.
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2011, 18:23 by ALoveSupreme »
Logged

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #128 on: 03 Mar 2011, 18:35 »

The vocal majority who do it for reasons which are absolutely at odds with feminism. The assholes who take courses on women's studies to be in a class which will be predominantly females. The frustrated pseudo-paternal ultra-patronising males who definitely know more than mere women do about being female. The suspiciously super duper sex-positive men who are looking for a positive spin on their porn addictions. Mother fetishists who are looking for surrogate female acceptance in the face of social disinterest from sensible women. I could go on and on and on.

This logic to steer clear of identifying as a male feminist based on this just literally drives me crazy!

I mean, when I think about all the assholes who play music ONLY TO GET LAID or to "party brah" or whatever lame reason and not because they appreciate the history or the theory or the art or whatever... that doesn't mean I put my cornet or my saxophone or my guitar down and stop listening to and playing music and just bow out.  I do it because it is right for me and so effing what if those people are an embarrassment to what I consider an extremely important aspect of my life.   If you think something like feminism is right then why would you allow your opinion to be swayed by people like that?

AAAUUUGH I know I should get so crazy about this and I apologize and I don't mean to be such a jerk to you but this apparent apathy because of the actions of others just does not sit right.
Logged

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: women and music
« Reply #129 on: 04 Mar 2011, 00:02 »

I don't think a man can honestly claim to understand being a women and thus, I think they should defer on all matters which differentiate the sexes. We're talking literally the difference between men using the term feminist (which they are bizarrely adamant about being allowed to use, you notice?) and another slightly more respectable, dare I say it, modest term like pro-feminist, profeminist or feminist sympathiser etc.

what about trans/genderqueer/etc. individuals, are they allowed to call themselves feminists
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: women and music
« Reply #130 on: 04 Mar 2011, 00:05 »

i mean what i am trying to get at is that the literal use of the term "feminism" seems like kind of a weird place to draw the line and start practicing biological essentialism
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #131 on: 04 Mar 2011, 03:08 »

To this logic, white people should not support equality among races and just keep their mouths shut and never try to take Black/African American Studies courses in college to educate themselves?  Sorry, I'm really not buying any of that at all.

By all means go but don't black yourself up and tell people you know what it's like to be African American.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #132 on: 04 Mar 2011, 03:13 »

what about trans/genderqueer/etc. individuals, are they allowed to call themselves feminists

I've met maybe one transgender person I could call a friend so I'm not really capable of making this kind of judgement call.

It's a complex issue but I'd assume that at the point whereby you're actively passing as a female in the eyes of other people, I'd say you're a lot closer to being a feminist than a man. Other feminists might disagree though so I have no idea.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #133 on: 04 Mar 2011, 03:18 »

AAAUUUGH I know I should get so crazy about this and I apologize and I don't mean to be such a jerk to you but this apparent apathy because of the actions of others just does not sit right.

I think you're taking this somewhere else entirely. I'm just saying I don't think males should call themselves feminists.

You can act in a pro-feminist way and study feminism, that's all good. I just have problems with the widespread misappropriation of the term amongst men and I don't like it when males call themselves feminists, for reasons I've already explained in reasonable depth.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11,017
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: women and music
« Reply #134 on: 04 Mar 2011, 05:34 »

Well that sucks Tommy because I'm labelling YOU a feminist.

You're a feminist.

Everyone's a feminist! Except the people who aren't.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Elysiana

  • 1-800-SCABIES
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 838
  • Make me Fibonacci
Re: women and music
« Reply #135 on: 04 Mar 2011, 05:52 »

I also don't understand why men shouldn't be allowed to call themselves feminists. Are we using the same definition of feminism? It feels like you're attaching something extra to it, or that you're assuming that those who do are correct.

Which of course is fine; I'm just wondering what you define it as?
Logged

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #136 on: 04 Mar 2011, 06:36 »

To this logic, white people should not support equality among races and just keep their mouths shut and never try to take Black/African American Studies courses in college to educate themselves?  Sorry, I'm really not buying any of that at all.

By all means go but don't black yourself up and tell people you know what it's like to be African American.

It feels like you have encountered every kind of asshole male faux-feminist ever.  

My problem with your definitions of what you have seen in males in feminism is that none of these traits are feminist traits.  They're traits of people that are assholes.  

A suburb-y white kid that puts on a backward cap and some baggy jeans and starts talking like Seth Green from Can't Hardly Wait once they get into a black studies course isn't someone who is interested in the gradual "eradication" of racism.  He's just an asshole.
And a dude that takes a women's studies course that wants to "meet chicks" isn't a feminist. He's an asshole.

Either way, yes, I completely agree with you.  People like this are an insult to black people and women.  But what I'm gathering from your stance is that every other white person and every other male should just "stay out of it," because of people like this?  Actually, from the quote above it's o.k. for someone that is not black to take a course to educate themselves but guys who take women's studies courses are jerks?

I think this is becoming a cyclical argument and obviously no one here will be "changing anyone's mind" on the internet, but of all the weirdest and most foreign-to-me viewpoints I have ever encountered on the internet, this one takes the cake.  I don't mean offense by that, I'm just trying to give a rationale for why I keep responding, I usually don't let myself get into such long winded "internet debates" like this.
« Last Edit: 04 Mar 2011, 06:40 by ALoveSupreme »
Logged

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #137 on: 04 Mar 2011, 09:01 »

And a dude that takes a women's studies course that wants to "meet chicks" isn't a feminist. He's an asshole.

He's an asshole who has cheapened the word and the concept to the point whereby you might as well just call everything and everyone a feminist if he's entitled to do the same.

But what I'm gathering from your stance is that every other white person and every other male should just "stay out of it," because of people like this?  Actually, from the quote above it's o.k. for someone that is not black to take a course to educate themselves but guys who take women's studies courses are jerks?

No, that's why I've said the opposite of this like three times now. You can study what you want, I actively encourage it if it interests you. I have and ultimately I decided that men who describe themselves as feminists are often a hindrance to the cause rather than a boon and thus, I won't call myself a feminist.

I think this is becoming a cyclical argument and obviously no one here will be "changing anyone's mind" on the internet, but of all the weirdest and most foreign-to-me viewpoints I have ever encountered on the internet, this one takes the cake.

Yes, it is outlandishly bizarre that somebody might not want to call themselves a feminist. I mean aside from all the books and essays which suggest exactly the same thing and the extensive male feminist/pro-feminist/profeminist debate which has been ongoing for literally your entire life.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

pwhodges

  • Admin emeritus
  • Awakened
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,932
  • I'll only say this once...
    • My home page
Re: women and music
« Reply #138 on: 04 Mar 2011, 09:08 »

How much of the effort put into discussing the meaning of the label "feminism", and who is allowed to wear it, has any effect on the possible progress towards greater equity or equality?  In fact, does not arguing about it too much end up discrediting the whole idea in many people's minds to some extent?
Logged
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #139 on: 04 Mar 2011, 09:33 »

Alternately, if male chauvinists calling themselves feminists are a significant obstacle for female equality, how will we know without at least acknowledging the debate?
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Elysiana

  • 1-800-SCABIES
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 838
  • Make me Fibonacci
Re: women and music
« Reply #140 on: 04 Mar 2011, 09:33 »

Tommy, for some reason what you'd said before had led me to believe that you didn't want to call yourself a feminist because female feminists thought it was wrong that you should. I don't know why, but it wasn't clear to me that YOU are trying to distance yourself from those who call themselves feminists wrongly. Is this closer to what you are saying? To some extent I can understand that, but (I hate this example, it feels trite at this point, I apologize) just because the WBC calls themselves Christians doesn't mean that those who truly follow a Christ-like path should not also call themselves Christians; or that because some of the proponents of racial equity have gone off the deep end, those who are truly fighting for equality should feel the need to step back.

That's not to say you are wrong (I don't feel that any of this is a matter of right and wrong); but I do feel sad that you feel it's gotten to the point where the vocal minority has hurt the cause so much as to have to distance yourself from the name of the movement because of the fear/frustration that you will be misunderstood. Has the word "feminist" really become that loaded? If so, I feel like something has gone terribly wrong somewhere along the line.

Labels frustrate me to begin with. I hate that we as humans feel the need to put things in little boxes and then act like we understand them. Labels shouldn't define us, but they tend to give us that book cover that people judge us by.

<edit > P.S. Thank you for being patient with all my questions and prodding; my brain has been kind of muddled lately. I'm not meaning to argue, just needing to clarify for my sake. </edit>
« Last Edit: 04 Mar 2011, 09:35 by Elysiana »
Logged

Yunior

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
Re: women and music
« Reply #141 on: 04 Mar 2011, 10:47 »

There are also, like, legions of women who misappropriate the label for transparent political gain and whose conceptualization of feminism is, to my mind, fairly antifeminist. Like, should I drop the label because Sarah Palin tries to join the club? To me, that's just more reason to be loud about taking ownership of the label and pointing out the ways I disagree with her and the ways in which I feel she's sullied the label by tacking it onto her own political views.

It really is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for pro-feminist/feminist men, so I can appreciate the lengths you've gone to find a label that works for you and your conceptualization of feminism. But I'm just saying, y'know, open invitation from me to you, or if you just wanna whisper the label quietly to yourself from time to time, it wouldn't, like, explode my brain or anything.
Logged
[02:00] Dollface: clara you are awesome
[02:00] clara: oh thanks dollface
[02:00] Dollface: whos awesome you are clara

Radical AC

  • Beyond Thunderdome
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 567
  • Could use a wish right now
    • bookface
Re: women and music
« Reply #142 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:29 »

There are also, like, legions of women who misappropriate the label for transparent political gain and whose conceptualization of feminism is, to my mind, fairly antifeminist. Like, should I drop the label because Sarah Palin tries to join the club? To me, that's just more reason to be loud about taking ownership of the label and pointing out the ways I disagree with her and the ways in which I feel she's sullied the label by tacking it onto her own political views.

I think that is why it is important to understand the ideology of feminism, be confident in it, and correctly assert it.  If someone claims to be a feminist then you can make general claims about their beliefs.  If they come back and say, "That isn't what I meant, I don't believe that," then you can call them on being feminist.  If I, as a man, claim to be feminist and am told by a woman also claiming to be a feminist that because of my gender I can't be a feminist, then I would call her out on understanding what the feminist ideology is.  That is not to advocate calling people out on their beliefs as a fallacy monger, but rather the right to question someone's convictions who questions yours.  Or, question people who claim equality and hypocritically assert the antithesis.  It can all seem very semantical, but it is important to avoid confusion and assert equality.
Logged

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #143 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:49 »

I just noticed my "message under my username" ("position" title?) is "Vagina Manifesto."  ... is this by coincidence or is someone making fun of me  :?
Logged

Scandanavian War Machine

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,236
  • zzzzzzzz
Re: women and music
« Reply #144 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:50 »

coincidence
Logged
Quote from: KvP
Also I would like to point out that the combination of Sailor Moon and faux-Kerouac / Sonic Youth spelling is perhaps the purest distillation of what this forum is that we have yet been presented with.

ALoveSupreme

  • Beyoncé
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 722
    • http://www.facebook.com/heyheyrabbit
Re: women and music
« Reply #145 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:51 »

Then that is sort of amazing.
Logged

Yunior

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
Re: women and music
« Reply #146 on: 04 Mar 2011, 12:49 »

If someone claims to be a feminist then you can make general claims about their beliefs.

Yes, feminism is a monolith and all feminists think exactly like. Ergo, we can safely conclude that, in addition to fighting for gender equality, feminists are all man-hating, bra-burning, nazi lesbian shitasses who abort babies on their lunch-break and don't shave their pubes
No
NO
DON'T CORRECT ME I SAID IT AND I'M A FEMINIST SO I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE A STUPID MAN PERSON WITH A PENIS GO AWAY
Logged
[02:00] Dollface: clara you are awesome
[02:00] clara: oh thanks dollface
[02:00] Dollface: whos awesome you are clara

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #147 on: 04 Mar 2011, 13:19 »

Has the word "feminist" really become that loaded?

In my experience, yes. As I keep mentioning, this is through personal experience and I don't necessarily expect anybody to agree with me. Though I would say that I meet a lot of feminists who continue to be rankled and deeply suspicious of men who openly profess to being feminists. My first girlfriend, an admitted militant feminist, once told me that amongst her female friends "male feminist" was the term they used for suspected date rapists and persistent sex pests. The more men I have seen in person and online who claim to be feminists, the more I've understood why this kind of misandry occurs. As I keep saying, there's probably a lot of really terrific pro-feminists out there but I never really seem to meet them. JC, sure, I understand why he would call himself a feminist and I think he's more respectful of women than basically any other guy I have ever met so that's one point to the menfolk. Alas, he's in a minority.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #148 on: 04 Mar 2011, 13:23 »

But I'm just saying, y'know, open invitation from me to you, or if you just wanna whisper the label quietly to yourself from time to time, it wouldn't, like, explode my brain or anything.

Regardless, from roughly a thousand conversations with women who are against the notion of males as feminists, I wouldn't be comfortable with it.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: women and music
« Reply #149 on: 04 Mar 2011, 13:25 »

It doesn't cheapen the term unless you go along with it and agree that everyone that calls themselves feminists are actually feminists.

Amen.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up