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Author Topic: women and music  (Read 36000 times)

David_Dovey

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Re: women and music
« Reply #50 on: 28 Feb 2011, 14:11 »

The moral of this story is that the worst possible thing you can do to negate the obscene good fortune of being born a straight white man is to become politically aware.

SO CONFUSING  :psyduck:
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Scandanavian War Machine

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Re: women and music
« Reply #51 on: 28 Feb 2011, 14:19 »

"'Only the dreamer venoms all his days,
'Bearing more woe than all his sins deserve"
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Re: women and music
« Reply #52 on: 28 Feb 2011, 14:21 »

Kim Gordon is an interesting case, namely because there was a period in Sonic Youth's history where she did very consciously make a shift from being just another band member to dressing up and playing ingenue, and this has certainly been read as a cynical move on the part of the band in an effort to draw more attention to themselves.

No Wave was interesting in that pretty much every single band was co-ed. Some of the ladies flaunted their sexuality (usually confrontationally, e.g., Lydia Lunch), but at least as many didn't.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #53 on: 28 Feb 2011, 14:28 »

Dovey - Okay, I getcha! Yes, I was under the assumption that you were saying it was maliciously sexist, but you cleared it up and that makes sense.

A question that crossed my mind that is related to the second half of your post, not because I think you implied it but because I'm curious to hear your opinion - do you think that less-attractive female musicians are seen as more genuine because they aren't "relying" on their looks? This is somewhat related to SWM's post about whether that group would be more popular if they were better-looking. If that's true, would they really have more fans or can you even call them fans at that point?

I have a lot to say on this issue but for the most part I try to stay out of the debate because all the women I know in music hate it being brought up. I guess I can kind of see how having a male over-zealously defend perceived double standards can be yet another form of patronisation. So it's basically a kaleidoscope of difficulty, which undoubtedly contributes to how often it is swept under the rug.
That's sad to me that you'd feel like you can't defend a position because it would be misconstrued like that. I've always found it frustrating that some women refuse to allow men to stand up for them. I don't like hearing women say "I don't need a MAN to help me out" because that seems just as sexist to me. I don't know if that's what you were getting at necessarily, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #54 on: 28 Feb 2011, 15:15 »

Even more confusing when you take into account the fact that I think a lot of people actually give women the benefit of the doubt over men or are a touch more sympathetic towards females in music. Certainly I am guilty of this positive discrimination and it remains to be seen if this causes it to even out somewhat.
I'm a little confused by this, could you give us some concrete examples?
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David_Dovey

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Re: women and music
« Reply #55 on: 28 Feb 2011, 15:42 »

Dovey - Okay, I getcha! Yes, I was under the assumption that you were saying it was maliciously sexist, but you cleared it up and that makes sense.

A question that crossed my mind that is related to the second half of your post, not because I think you implied it but because I'm curious to hear your opinion - do you think that less-attractive female musicians are seen as more genuine because they aren't "relying" on their looks? This is somewhat related to SWM's post about whether that group would be more popular if they were better-looking. If that's true, would they really have more fans or can you even call them fans at that point?

This is a really interesting question! I can't say for sure how I feel about it, but my gut reaction is that, no, unfortunately this bias only works in the negative, and that there's no positive flipside whereby unattractive female (or male, I guess) performers get a credibility boost based on their unattractiveness. The closest I can come to an example of this is Devin Townsend, who goes out of his way to point out, and often exaggerate his ugliness as part of his often self-deprecating humour. Heck, I don't even consider Devy to be that ugly anyway since he cut the skullet off.

Oh actually; how about this? Beth Ditto, who is aggressive and confrontational about her obesity, and lauded for it by some. I wouldn't say it's universally positive, but I definitely think a big part of why she is a recognisable identity is because she is overweight and very open about her acceptance of it.

I guess the way to turn biases against unattractive traits is to play them up? But I wouldn't say someone that is "passively" unattractive, if you will, would necessary see any possible benefit from it, even in something as ethereal and amorphous as "credibility".
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Re: women and music
« Reply #56 on: 28 Feb 2011, 15:45 »

I really want to make a biting comment about music  being totally independent of looks, and whatever is affected by looks being mere entertainment,  but it's bedtime, and I'm tired and wouldn't get it right.  So please work out what I would have said, and take it as read, OK?
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Re: women and music
« Reply #57 on: 28 Feb 2011, 16:07 »

Paul, I don't know that you'd have to be biting about it because that's kind of what it seems like most of us are, in some form or another, agreeing upon - that it doesn't make sense to say that someone's music is any better or worse due to looks but a lot of people still apparently think it is. I've heard people say "How can you like person X, they can't sing" and the response is "But he/she is SO hot! How dare you say they can't sing!" Sad but true.

It would be interesting to come up with a band where nobody ever sees the members, doesn't know whether they're male or female, but are excellent musicians (in a technical sense - personal tastes aside, that is), and then have a control group that eventually gets to see who the members are, and another group that is told they are all female, another that is told they are all male, etc. Or show them pics of the group where in one, the members are attractive and in the other they're not, and see if it changes anyone's opinion on the band.


Dovey - True that about the skullet. It's still creepy as fuck when he grins though lol. It's funny, though, how his look has coincided so well with the type of music he's producing. The skullet fit the SYL feel so well; bald is working for the DTP.

I'd never heard of Beth Ditto before (just looked her up though). I'm going to risk sounding like a jerk and guess that it's mostly females that laud her for it, while men mostly ridicule her. Yes/no? The only reason I guess this is that it so often seems to be the case - for example, Camryn Manheim caught a lot of flak from men for being a larger woman, while a lot of women were all "yay girl power" about her. TDW Geek posted a pic of an overweight girl in an anime cosplay costume the other day, and of course there was a huge discussion on whether or not she should have even attempted it. A lot of girls said "you go girl", a lot of guys said "she's disgusting", and a very few guys said the other guys were shallow. Then again, that's the internet and you kind of have to take it with a grain of salt, but I thought it was fairly telling.


Also: the Dixie Chicks and other bands that make music about how awesome girls are. Why is this okay (well, I don't think it is, but a lot of girls apparently do) but if a guy group did it, people would freak out? I feel like this sort of reverse sexism is just as harmful, but it's often overlooked and even revered under the guise of equality.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #58 on: 28 Feb 2011, 16:10 »

I'm a little confused by this, could you give us some concrete examples?

That's fairly difficult to do. You could set up a poll and ask people if they are more willing to give female artists a chance than male but you'd be relying on people being honest about it. I doubt it's just me though.
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ALoveSupreme

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Re: women and music
« Reply #59 on: 28 Feb 2011, 16:54 »

Also: the Dixie Chicks and other bands that make music about how awesome girls are. Why is this okay (well, I don't think it is, but a lot of girls apparently do) but if a guy group did it, people would freak out? I feel like this sort of reverse sexism is just as harmful, but it's often overlooked and even revered under the guise of equality.

This is probably because people who are on the other end of the stick as far as minimization in society goes typically don't need the rub, so to speak.  It's sort of the same reason that there are no "straight pride" parades or, as a companion to the Black Entertainment Network, there is no "White Entertainment Network."  To suggest something such as a straight pride parade would be quite offensive and most likely typically come from a place of homophobia.  There are no specifically named "White Entertainment Networks" because, for the most part, television programming is aimed at a white, middle class viewers and demographics.

edit: Wait I think I totally missed your point, you were saying if a guy group made music about how awesome girls are it would be something people would freak out over?
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2011, 16:59 by ALoveSupreme »
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Akima

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Re: women and music
« Reply #60 on: 28 Feb 2011, 16:58 »

I've never seen a band get trashed like this for "not being able to play." ever. sometimes bands get trashed for their attitude or the music that they choose to play, but never for the ability of the musicians. and we have some terrible bands at this school. am I crazy for thinking that it's because they are women? and being pissed off? too much kathleen hanna? do you guys think that men are more critical of women playing music than they would be of other men? I can't figure out why the guy who wrote that comment would specifically identify himself as male (you have the option to identify yourself as a gender or to leave it blank).
The OP reads a little like someone being surprised that the sea is wet and salty.

Anonymous BBS-style systems attract harsh, possibly unfair comments? Oh say it is not so! I am shocked! One isolated comment isn't enough to build any sort of theory about how men see female musicians in any event. Was this comment typical of the response the band received, or just a random arsehole?

Are guys more critical of women playing music than men? A high proportion of men are more critical of women doing anything than men in the same field. Especially if the field is one that some men feel is "male territory" like technical professions or computer/video games. At least the BBS-poster confined his criticism to the band members' musicianship, rather than launching into the routine slagging of their appearance, chastity, sexual preference etc.
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Elysiana

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Re: women and music
« Reply #61 on: 28 Feb 2011, 17:04 »

edit: Wait I think I totally missed your point, you were saying if a guy group made music about how awesome girls are it would be something people would freak out over?
No, I was saying guys singing about guys being awesome, but that is a good point too! Of course, that pretty much happens a lot already, and already a lot of girls have problems with it. It's like if guys talk about how cool it is to be a guy, girls freak out and say they're chauvinists. And if guys talk about how cool girls are, girls freak out and say they're chauvinists.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #62 on: 28 Feb 2011, 17:26 »

edit: Wait I think I totally missed your point, you were saying if a guy group made music about how awesome girls are it would be something people would freak out over?
if guys talk about how cool girls are, girls freak out and say they're chauvinists.
ha, yes, sort of to Tommy's point.
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KvP

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Re: women and music
« Reply #63 on: 28 Feb 2011, 17:32 »

ITT we learn that the problem with women and music is lippy women / political correctness (?)

It must be so hard to be a successful rock musician :(
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2011, 17:34 by KvP »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #64 on: 28 Feb 2011, 18:06 »

Misogynistic lyrics talking about why being a male is awesome?  I'm going to go ahead and point you in the very general direction of mainstream rap. 
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Re: women and music
« Reply #65 on: 28 Feb 2011, 18:07 »

Right, cause hip-hop is definitely the only genre where that happens  :roll:
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Re: women and music
« Reply #66 on: 28 Feb 2011, 18:09 »

I didn't say it was.  To me, that question just had a pretty obvious answer.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #67 on: 28 Feb 2011, 18:34 »

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. I just had a conversation with a friend who tried to argue to me that hip-hop was the only musical genre that perpetuates misogyny he could think of and ugh don't you hate it when you find out friends have disgusting attitudes towards stuff like this
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2011, 23:33 by JimmyJazz »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #68 on: 28 Feb 2011, 23:04 »

Anonymous BBS-style systems attract harsh, possibly unfair comments? Oh say it is ot so! I am shocked! One isolated comment isn't enough to build any sort of theory about how men see female musicians in any event. Was this comment typical of the response the band received, or just a random arsehole?

Are guys more critical of women playing music than men? A high proportion of men are more critical of women doing anything than men in the same field. Especially if the field is one that some men feel is "male territory" like technical professions or computer/video games. At least the BBS-poster confined his criticism to the band members' musicianship, rather than launching into the routine slagging of their appearance, chastity, sexual preference etc.

comments concern context that would take a long, long time for someone to gather. music on my campus is a boy's club. it is well-established. I don't know why I made a thread about it. speaking to your last sentence, a comment from the same board about the last girl band on campus, a band that no longer plays:

Quote
remember a band made up of a what appeared to be all lesbians. Found the fat bull dyke lead singer to be both scary and satanic when she was making high pitched screeches into the microphone. Why knows maybe thats her dykish feminist mating call. Does anyone have any answers?

I've decided that I'd rather play guitar than argue in this thread, though, so, whatever.
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Nodaisho

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Re: women and music
« Reply #69 on: 28 Feb 2011, 23:45 »

or, as a companion to the Black Entertainment Network, there is no "White Entertainment Network."
I'd say whatever channels play Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable Guy would count as the companion to BET.

KvP, I think you have your ear to the ground so far as music in Fort Collins goes, right? How do people think of Shel? The only people I know that know of them actually know them personally (one of my friends roadied for them in the past).

I didn't know who Beth Ditto was previous to this thread, but fat acceptance pisses me off. Frequently, it isn't just acceptance, it's encouraging people not to even try to change if they get overweight. If people went on the record encouraging anorexics to continue not eating, or bulimics to keep binging and purging? There would be outrage. But people start encouraging people to stay in a state that will likely lead to a heart attack by 50? They are lauded for going against the cultural pressures of attractiveness.

I'm all for someone's right to destroy their own body, but don't encourage others to do the same.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #70 on: 28 Feb 2011, 23:54 »

There's also the important thing to note, that Beth Ditto is just using her whole "HEY LOOK IM FAT AND PROUD"-schtick to cover up the fact that her band is stunningly mediocre and superfluous. Ask yourself; would that band ever have gotten anywhere if it weren't for the controversy she drummed up?

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KvP

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Re: women and music
« Reply #71 on: 01 Mar 2011, 00:24 »

Beth Ditto has a powerhouse diva voice. If people weren't so freaked out by her fat lesbo "provocation", they'd probably be talking about that.

*e: The scare quotes around "provocation" indicate that people are freaked out by the fact that she's fat and a lesbian, not that she is doing a poor job of provoking people. That would require at least some tacit intent on her part, where I don't think there is any.
« Last Edit: 01 Mar 2011, 00:26 by KvP »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #72 on: 01 Mar 2011, 08:18 »

I think my problem with "fat acceptance" is that it more often then not crosses into the "fat advocacy" realm.  Maybe this is naive, but wouldn't the idea of "health advocacy" be more realistic than "fat acceptance?"

Because, honestly, your point above was the first time I read something that made the "fat acceptance" movement seem realistic or not just someone being a douchebag about their size and pretty much being an advocate (as you put, which I liked).

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Elysiana

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Re: women and music
« Reply #73 on: 01 Mar 2011, 08:54 »

As a fat chick myself, I'm honestly inclined to agree with Nodaisho at least to some extent. There's a point where being overweight IS necessarily unhealthy. However, it's people like my ex-husband that piss me off; those who think that at 5'6", 125lbs is unhealthily overweight. There's this weird standard being promoted that people like that runway model are actually healthy and should be the norm, and to me that's pretty sickening. But the opposite is true too, as Nodaisho pointed out - neither one is healthy, and I got the feeling he/she IS talking about fat advocacy, not just acceptance.

I have problems with hypothyroidism and was on medication for it for years but it didn't change any of the symptoms. I gained 70lbs in about 7 years; I now weigh 180 and carry it well, but I know I'm not healthy. The scary part is when I joke about being a fat girl and someone who weighs more than me says "pfft, you don't even know what it is to be fat." No, I really do. I get the ridicule, I get the people who tell me I shouldn't eat this or that. Just because I am not the largest doesn't mean that I am healthy or that I don't feel pressure about it.

At this point, even I fall into the trap of "I'm not good-looking anyway, why should I care what I weigh? It doesn't matter because people will look at me the same way no matter what. Why bother losing 20lbs?" That's not a good attitude to have. I'm frustrated with myself because I know if I took the time to exercise, the pounds might not fall off but I'd be healthier at the very least. To say that it's okay to not even bother is NOT acceptable. I can't sit there and tell myself "I hate it that I get winded doing simple things nowadays" and then not do anything about it and feel sorry for myself.

For whatever reason, it was maybe 5 or 10 years ago that suddenly people started saying "It's okay if you're fat, you're still awesome" and people took it to an extreme. Girls that had no business wearing skinny jeans were trying to pour themselves into them, or wearing shirts where their belly hung out. That's not just acceptance, that's having no idea what's flattering and trying to pass it off as "You can't tell me how I should look, I'm fat and proud of it." I've known people who got pissed off because their DOCTOR told them they needed to look at their lifestyle and make some changes. "How dare she say that! Doesn't she know I have feelings?"

I agree that shaming them isn't the best way to act about it, but I am all for making it important for people to realize that it ISN'T okay to let yourself go completely and just say "Oh yeah? You can't tell me I'm fat, I'm a unique and special snowflake." And it's especially not okay to say, "I'm fat, and look at me! I'm famous! Fat chicks unite! We'll show them!" That's just as bad as saying, "Girls and guys should be equal, so screw guys! Girl power! Guys suck!"
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Elysiana

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Re: women and music
« Reply #74 on: 01 Mar 2011, 10:40 »

That's the point though, a lot of people aren't just saying "It's okay to be fat", they're implying that being fat is BETTER than being skinny, and skinny girls should go fuck themselves. It's just as stupid as saying the opposite.

I'm not sure how to answer you re: telling people they should take care of themselves. I think you're only reading half my statement though. I am not saying it's not okay to be fat. I'm saying that if you are fat, you better grow some balls and recognize that it's true. If you're okay with it, be okay with it, but don't say "Well, at least I'm not a skinny whore." I repeat what I said above - reverse discrimination is just as stupid.

Someone can't bitch and moan about how they can't do this or that, and when another person tells them "Well, you could if you lost weight" they get pissed off about it. If I have a choice to lose weight and choose not to, I can't then say "You can't call me fat!" I am making the choice to take all the negativity that goes along with it, whether or not it's right. I can't go to the doctor and when they tell me "You know you're obese, let's put you on a diet plan" I say, "How dare you tell me that! It offends my delicate sensibilities!" A doctor's job is to keep me healthy. By choosing not to listen to their advice, I am choosing to accept any health problems that come my way because of my weight.

Right now I'm 6 months pregnant. I have a one-hour glucose test in a few weeks. I am at high risk for gestational diabetes because of my weight. Do you know how it feels to realize that I fucked up and am already not giving my daughter the best life I can? It has nothing to do with people telling me I'm fat and me feeling depressed about that; it has everything to do with my health. Nobody wants to be unhealthy, we've just made bad choices and it's often hard to change those until it's too late. Shame isn't the way to fix that, but it also doesn't mean that everyone should sit back and say it's fine.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #75 on: 01 Mar 2011, 11:54 »

The idea of fat advocacy is ridiculous. I am also a fat woman and I have been fat my whole life! I don't love it, I honestly wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. It's not better than being skinny, but some fat people are maybe trying to make their image a little more acceptable, to not feel like people find them absolutely repulsive.


At this point, even I fall into the trap of "I'm not good-looking anyway, why should I care what I weigh? It doesn't matter because people will look at me the same way no matter what. Why bother losing 20lbs?" That's not a good attitude to have. I'm frustrated with myself because I know if I took the time to exercise, the pounds might not fall off but I'd be healthier at the very least. To say that it's okay to not even bother is NOT acceptable. I can't sit there and tell myself "I hate it that I get winded doing simple things nowadays" and then not do anything about it and feel sorry for myself.


So, the other day I was at work, just standing there, and some guys looked at me and one loudly remarked to the other that I should "consider trying out for the A&E program Heavy." Now, I am not that fat. I am not morbidly obese, I'm a size 16. But this kind of fat-shaming makes me actually frightened to go to a gym. If people are going to ridicule me when I am at work, what will they say to or about me when I am sweating and winded and making a pathetic attempt at running?

also

Girls that had no business wearing skinny jeans were trying to pour themselves into them, or wearing shirts where their belly hung out. That's not just acceptance, that's having no idea what's flattering and trying to pass it off as "You can't tell me how I should look, I'm fat and proud of it."

Who the hell are you to say whose business it is to do anything regarding their own appearance? I wear goddamn skinny jeans and they actually look pretty nice. Maybe I don't enjoy another's fashion choices, but I'm not about to tell them they can't wear it. That's just absolutely fucking ridiculous. Maybe they feel sexy in it, maybe they like the way they look. But of course fat people are disgusting and shouldn't be able to feel happy with their appearance! MUUMUUS FOR ALL THE FATTIES! Better yet, just stay inside until you get skinny. Don't make me look at you.


This thread is not about fat vs. skinny in terms of health though, it's about female musicians!

This is Adele. She is an incredible singer who works very, very hard and has some mainstream success (I think she has two Grammys?). Apart from loving her music, I think she's incredibly beautiful. She also happens to be overweight. However, when this is mentioned in interviews, she basically shuts down the question by saying "until this affects my music, my health or my having a boyfriend, it doesn't matter." I know people will say that this is already affecting her health, but I suppose she means not immediately.

The reason I mention her is that she never brings up her weight, and does her best to let her music and her process as an artist be the focus of attention. She doesn't use it to her advantage, in my opinion, but she also doesn't let it hinder her career.
« Last Edit: 01 Mar 2011, 11:56 by allison »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #76 on: 01 Mar 2011, 12:21 »

The obvious implication of this argument is that it's better to be fat and ashamed rather than fat and content with yourself, regardless of your physical condition, because being fat is regarded as inherently inferior to being skinny. Whether or not it's healthy is totally besides the point because you can be skinny as hell and the most unhealthy person in the world, and conversely, you can be heavy-set and in good shape. There is a correlation, of course, but even so, fat acceptance isn't the same as fat advocacy, nor is it about promoting an unhealthy lifestyle - being fat doesn't mean you're not living a healthy life, and being skinny doesn't mean you are! Don't you think it's unbelievably cruel to make obese people ashamed of themselves just so they'll have an extra incentive to go for a jog now and then?

And while we're talking about eating disorders: what do you think causes more eating disorders - telling people it's okay to be fat, or shaming them into trying to be thin?

(And I think you're underestimating the value of combating oppressive standards of attractiveness when this is what a runway model looks like.)

Actually, no, that isn't the implication at all. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though. I have always found "fat acceptance" to have an almost complete overlap with fat advocacy. I'm not concerned with someone being chubby. I'm concerned with someone being in a physical condition where if they were to have a child at 30, they probably wouldn't live to see them graduate highschool. I'm concerned with peoples' health problems, and how when people say that they want to lose weight when they are overweight, people will try to discourage them because you should be happy the way you are.

Shaming someone into trying to be thin causes more eating disorders, but telling someone it is okay to have 40% body fat causes more heart attacks.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #77 on: 01 Mar 2011, 12:26 »

I have, actually. And a lot of people I talk fitness with mention it happening. Maybe it's an American thing.

I've gotten similar responses when I mention that I'm trying to put on more muscle as well.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #78 on: 01 Mar 2011, 12:41 »

Who the hell are you to say whose business it is to do anything regarding their own appearance? I wear goddamn skinny jeans and they actually look pretty nice. Maybe I don't enjoy another's fashion choices, but I'm not about to tell them they can't wear it. That's just absolutely fucking ridiculous. Maybe they feel sexy in it, maybe they like the way they look. But of course fat people are disgusting and shouldn't be able to feel happy with their appearance! MUUMUUS FOR ALL THE FATTIES! Better yet, just stay inside until you get skinny. Don't make me look at you.
Good lord, calm down. I'm not at all saying that only 100-lb waifs should wear them, I'm saying that people are taking it overboard. I know several girls our (I'm also a 16) size who look awesome in them. They do NOT look awesome when they're trying to get into a 10. It doesn't make any sense. I would say the same about a 6 trying to get into a 2. It looks silly, like people have no idea what size they are. Personally, I can't get away with them because I have a big ass. I would look like a fool if I tried. Does it bother me to know that I shouldn't wear a particular style because it's unflattering? Hell no.


Jeans - I've also heard people say that someone shouldn't feel like they should lose weight, after they've said they'd like to. I'm inclined to agree with Nodaisho that it may be an American thing. It seems like there isn't much middle ground sometimes. It's either "hey fatty" or "be proud!" but not "Hey, if you want to lose weight, I'll be here for encouragement."
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Re: women and music
« Reply #79 on: 01 Mar 2011, 12:54 »

They do NOT look awesome when they're trying to get into a 10. It doesn't make any sense. I would say the same about a 6 trying to get into a 2. It looks silly, like people have no idea what size they are.

But it still comes down to you telling another person how they should dress, regardless of their opinion. I disagree with that. You can dislike it, but don't act like the authority.

On the point of fat acceptance/advocacy, it comes down to whether that person has approached you to talk about their weight issues. If my mom or boyfriend or friend or anyone came to me and said, "if you want to lose weight, I'll be there for you" without any prompting on my part, I'd be furious. Sometimes I really get down on myself about the way I look and what I want to hear is "you're not actually a morbidly obese social pariah" as opposed to "well, if you lose weight, I'm behind that".
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Re: women and music
« Reply #80 on: 01 Mar 2011, 13:02 »

I don't see how the latter two aren't compatible. The point isn't to be proud that you're fat, the point is that there shouldn't be any negativity attached to being fat in itself - you should be able to be proud of your body regardless of how it looks. If you aren't satisfied with it and want to work out to lose some weight or gain muscle or whatever, that's fine! Good! Super. If someone start eating well and exercising and their friends tell them to stop, the friends totally missed the point of everything ever and should be locked in a basement for several years with only a tea cosy to amuse themselves with.
The thing is, while that would generally be the idea, that isn't what I have seen from "fat acceptance" people. It's a mis-used term mostly.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #81 on: 01 Mar 2011, 13:08 »

Jeans - ha, yes, and that's kind of what I'm saying (the latter part). And there's even negativity surrounding losing weight sometimes - if I were to tell someone who's got 50lbs on me that I was going to start going to the gym, I'd prepare myself for a possible negative reaction along the lines of "Well I suppose you think I should too then."

Basically you can't win no matter what, because someone will always find something to be offended about. Happens all the time.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #82 on: 01 Mar 2011, 14:04 »

I am also a fat woman and I have been fat my whole life!

You're not fat. You're just a bit chubby, poseur.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #83 on: 01 Mar 2011, 17:15 »

This is a little aside from the issue of how we think / talk about weight, but I think it's important w.r.t. weight and health:

Fatness is a poor way to measure unhealthiness

"being active is the more important factor [for preserving health], even if the activity does not succeed in causing one to lose weight."
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Re: women and music
« Reply #84 on: 01 Mar 2011, 17:28 »

That study used BMI. That's enough reason for me to toss that shit out immediately. I know, BMI works for the majority of people. If you want to be taken seriously, though? Don't use 19th century science when you have much better options available. Also, finding one study in nutrition/health isn't much. You can find one study for almost everything. Sure, there are some fat people that are healthy. There are also skinny people that are unhealthy. In general, though, being obese is bad for you. It's bad for your joints, it's bad for your heart, it's bad for hormone production, it's bad all around.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #85 on: 01 Mar 2011, 19:37 »

does it seriously hinder your ability to play music
specifically if you are a woman
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Re: women and music
« Reply #86 on: 01 Mar 2011, 20:00 »

Depends on whether you are fat enough to have difficulty reaching around a guitar. Or fat enough that you can't finger single strings.

So for many Americans, yes.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #87 on: 01 Mar 2011, 20:08 »

I know this isn't a woman, but here is a video of Matt Andersen, who is 400+ lbs and and a really incredible blues guitar player. This song, fittingly is called "One Size Never Fits".
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Re: women and music
« Reply #88 on: 02 Mar 2011, 07:08 »

So guys, the chick from Theatre of Tragedy has a thin, reedy voice and is often off-key, but they're often hailed as one of the most popular female-fronted metal bands out there and I have heard people say her voice is strong and stunningly beautiful. What gives? Am I just pickier than most? Is it because the "novelty" of having a female singer leads people to follow them? Do you think that having a female singer but a male band can lead to popularity more than having an all-female band?
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Re: women and music
« Reply #89 on: 02 Mar 2011, 07:53 »

Well, I had never heard of this group, but her voice sounds about as good as I would expect someone in the genre sounding.  Not amazing but passable as good.

I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge the fact that, yes, this band probably enjoys better success because of their thin female singer.  I'm going to guess this band plays up the dichotomy of having a singer like that in a metal band or something obvious like that.  

Women in metal is an interesting topic as well.  I think the website is down now, but I remember reading an article on xsisterhoodx.com at least 5 years ago (or longer, probably) by the singer of Chunsa / Fall River that was very enlightening.  I can't remember all of her points, but one thing she noted was how frustrating that even when a group or underground movement tries to be accepting of women, she would still find ignorant sexism occurring, such as comparing her band to other metal/hardcore bands that feature a female singer, even if the two bands sound nothing alike.  The comparison would be drawn simply because both bands feature a female vocalist.
« Last Edit: 02 Mar 2011, 08:06 by ALoveSupreme »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #90 on: 02 Mar 2011, 07:56 »

"The band made use of contrasting vocals (commonly referred to as "Beauty and the Beast" vocals)" - their wiki page

yep.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #91 on: 02 Mar 2011, 08:13 »

Yes, but doesn't that mean any band with a female and a male singer could be said to be "playing it up"? That's a really difficult question to deal with. A band with a female lead is already going to stand out because it's a pretty male-dominated industry. A lot of them use the "sex sells" theory, though - Lacuna Coil comes to mind. Granted, she has an amazing voice and they're a band that has stood out considerably since they first started, but they definitely play up the "hot chick" aspect. I wonder, does metal distinctly place female singers on a pedestal? Hmm.

Re: comparisons - that's a tough one. I have noticed that happening, but mostly with people who don't listen to much metal to begin with. To be fair, a lot of them DO have a lot in common - power metal has a lot more female-fronted bands than death metal has, I would think, so when people think of female singers, they tend to be in similar bands. But as someone who has been listening to metal for a decently long time now, I hear them and can tell the differences a lot faster.

I mean, I've had people tell me that Opeth is like GWAR because they both growl, or that Dream Theater is like Rhapsody because they both have guys that are high-pitched singers.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #92 on: 02 Mar 2011, 08:27 »

No, I would say a band plays up the utilization of a female vocalist when they focus on the fact that it is a female, rather than, say the registers of the vocalists or nature in which they sing.  My guess is a press release for any of these types of bands would mention that a band has a woman with a band photo that features her directly visible before they have a release that does neither.

I'm not even really saying I completely fault a band for doing that.  It could be out of unintentionally ignorant sexism or basically just giving in and acknowledging that, yes, metal and hardcore is mostly a medium dominated by male performers so when a female becomes involved it is pretty obvious and the smart way to market that is to capitalize on it.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #93 on: 02 Mar 2011, 09:29 »

Basically you can't win no matter what, because someone will always find something to be offended about. Happens all the time.

This sentence essentially sums up my difficult relationship with feminism.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #94 on: 02 Mar 2011, 11:54 »

Ah yes, the white man's handwave
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Re: women and music
« Reply #95 on: 02 Mar 2011, 12:13 »

"The band made use of contrasting vocals (commonly referred to as "Beauty and the Beast" vocals)" - their wiki page

ToT invented the 'Beauty and the Beast' aesthetic (female clean singer, male growler), but it was a concept that had a pretty short hey-day. By the early 00's a lot  the original bands were dropping the growler entirely (often as part of the mysterious millenial gothic metal die-off where everyone decided that they'd make more money being third-rate darkwave bands). It's still an incredibly popular form of metal though, in Europe anyway, given that Cradle of Filth and Nightwish are both in a way exponents. Actually, it's more common nowadays to find a band with two dedicated male singers. Of course, contrasting clean and growled vocals wasn't entirely a new idea (I am not sure when it was first done, the earliest example I can think of off the top of my head is Edge of Sanity's song 'Enigma', from 1992's Unorthodox, but I'm sure there must be earlier examples). The male/female thing probably pioneered the idea of consistently duetting though.

It's maybe interesting to consider the contrast between bands where a female vocalist sings in a stereotypically female style (ie soprano) and bands such as Nuclear Death, Sacrilege, Acid King* and of course Arch Enemy. Look at the contrast between Angela Gossow and someone like Tarja Turunen. Tarja will always appear very feminine: dresses, pale make-up, etc. and deports herself somewhat like an opera singer. She is not in any way a frontwoman (frontperson?), whereas Angela dresses and acts pretty much like a male singer from a melodeath band would. (Interestingly, Nightwish's new singer dresses like a rock chick, moves about the stage and does crowd banter).

BTW, when you're talking about ToT's singer, are you talking about Nell Sigland or Liv Kristine? There's a pretty important difference in vocal quality in my mind.


*Another band where the sole female member is the lead guitarist, as well as vocalist.


EDIT: Thinking about it, one might actually say Cradle of Filth in some ways provide an interesting twist on the standard gender roles associated with beauty and the beast vocals (where we might expect the woman to be a victim and the growler sexually predatory), in that Dani Filth's 'character' is just as likely to be the victim of Sarah Jezebel Deva's 'character' as vice versa.
« Last Edit: 02 Mar 2011, 12:17 by KharBevNor »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #96 on: 02 Mar 2011, 12:30 »

If Dragonforce had a female lead, I still wouldn't give an honest shit about Dragonforce.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #97 on: 02 Mar 2011, 12:38 »

Sorry, I was speaking of Liv. I pretty much wrote them off after their first couple of albums because I couldn't stand her voice, so I wasn't even aware that they had a new vocalist. The new gal definitely sounds much different, as does their music.

It's funny, Nightwish became so absolutely huge because of Tarja's classically trained voice, but they've really moved away from that like they want to forget it happened. I feel that so many metal bands have migrated towards sounding more mainstream and having a more Evanescence-like flair, and I don't know if that's just a natural progression or if it's because Evanescence's popularity was enticing. It's frustrating to me because I don't care for them and I'm tired of people saying "I love gothic metal, Evanescence is so good!"


Also, Karyn Crisis. Nobody's gonna say she sounds like Anneke van Giersbergen or Floor Janssen haha. I really do, though, think that a lot of the confusion comes in with similarly-styled music. The people who say this person sounds just like that person are usually the ones who have trouble distinguishing between different types of music to begin with.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #98 on: 02 Mar 2011, 13:40 »

Ah yes, the white man's handwave

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Re: women and music
« Reply #99 on: 02 Mar 2011, 13:51 »

yeah man i mean that's kind of part & parcel of almost all discourse
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