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Author Topic: women and music  (Read 39122 times)

KvP

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Re: women and music
« Reply #100 on: 02 Mar 2011, 16:53 »

Goin' back a bit
I'm not gonna retrench arguments that were already made perfectly clear in Radical AC's posts upthread, but I will suggest you go ahead and GIS the Top 40/100/200/whatever bands in the charts right now, and -more pointedly- your favourite bands (it's oretty safe to assume that the Top 40 crowd and you don't have many picks in common if you're posting here) and tell me how many legitimately unattractive people you see.


Also Jonny Greenwood's got a funny-shaped head.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #101 on: 02 Mar 2011, 17:18 »

(i.e. i am literally patriarchy walking)

Really interested to know what you mean by this. Do you mean you have a family and you are the breadwinner, or this is what you are expected to be, or is this what you want? I mean, the latter two are mostly choices and you don't sound too keen on patriarchy, and from what I've gathered being on these boards you're not the former.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #102 on: 02 Mar 2011, 19:47 »

Goin' back a bit [...]

Literally was thinking of Radiohead the entire time I was writing that post.
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Johnny C

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Re: women and music
« Reply #103 on: 03 Mar 2011, 06:58 »

Really interested to know what you mean by this. Do you mean you have a family and you are the breadwinner, or this is what you are expected to be, or is this what you want? I mean, the latter two are mostly choices and you don't sound too keen on patriarchy, and from what I've gathered being on these boards you're not the former.

no i mean i'm a white hetero male so almost every system of social interaction that exists in the world privileges me. all i'm missing is being the son of someone in the top tax bracket in the country

I agree with those people, really.  I am a minority male who self identifies as a feminist and I really don't see a problem with that.  I don't know who these women are that give you shit for being a progressive human being but that's ridiculous.

no you misread me they gave me shit for having a feminist viewpoint but not calling myself a feminist just because i'm a man, they said it's ultimately way more beneficial if i just straight-up call me a feminist and explain to people why
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Elysiana

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Re: women and music
« Reply #104 on: 03 Mar 2011, 07:21 »

The word "feminism" already carries strong connotations - both positive and negative. A lot of that has to do with the fact that, as in so many other things, the vocal overzealous minority tend to overshadow the majority. I have known women who have gotten downright angry at men who call themselves feminists because they "couldn't possibly understand" what women are going through. My university used to have Take Back The Night rallies (sexual assault awareness campaign) and there were often quite a few men there... at least at the beginning. When groups of women starting gathering on the steps of buildings and calling out cruel names and practically spitting on any man that walked by, the number of men who were there to support the cause dwindled rapidly.

I think what Paul said about being a humanist rang true with me - I don't know if he meant the same thing I do, but to call it "feminism" has always struck me as suggesting that women should be treated better than men, not just equal. Possibly that's because there ARE a lot of feminists who believe that (as I said, the vocal overzealous minority) and that's tainted it for me. Feminism shouldn't mean misandry but it's often seen that way (or, too often, IS that way), which is sad.
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Johnny C

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Re: women and music
« Reply #105 on: 03 Mar 2011, 07:23 »

yeah but it's not about misandry it's about equity  and paul's point about "transitional" still applies to feminism in a world where the manufacturing industry in juarez, mexico operates the way it does
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ALoveSupreme

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Re: women and music
« Reply #106 on: 03 Mar 2011, 08:09 »

I agree with those people, really.  I am a minority male who self identifies as a feminist and I really don't see a problem with that.  I don't know who these women are that give you shit for being a progressive human being but that's ridiculous.

no you misread me they gave me shit for having a feminist viewpoint but not calling myself a feminist just because i'm a man, they said it's ultimately way more beneficial if i just straight-up call me a feminist and explain to people why

Actually that was my fault for writing in haste, I was addressing Tommy, who, to my assumption from what he said, seems to catch grief from women when he identifies as a feminist.

I was talking with Mary, my girlfriend, about this last night and one thing she noted is that it's foolish for women to "exclude men" from feminism.  Feminism doesn't work as a "transitional movement" without the support of EVERYone.  This obviously can only include men. 
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Re: women and music
« Reply #107 on: 03 Mar 2011, 08:28 »

Johnny - that's exactly what I'm saying. The problem arises when people SEE it as misandry. Technically it is not, but it's gotten that name due to a few bad eggs. Which is really too bad, because they're only making their journey toward equality that much harder.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #108 on: 03 Mar 2011, 15:46 »

I'm really not seeing the point where being a male and labeling yrself a "feminist" irrevocably turns into

a position whereby you had to tell a woman who was indisputably an active feminist that she was wrong and that your definition is stronger and purer than hers despite the fact that you're not a woman

In fact it seems positively counter-intuitive to what someone would do if they took feminism seriously/weren't a dick
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Johnny C

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Re: women and music
« Reply #109 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:03 »

no i think he's saying that those don't have to be arguments and in fact (in my experience which i mean is in a gender studies department so different but not by any means limited) often aren't arguments, and they don't necessarily have that endpoint
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Re: women and music
« Reply #110 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:25 »

"A co-opting or less frequently co-optation most commonly refers to action performed in a number of fields whereby an opponent is nullified or neutralized by absorption but there are other distinct senses as well."

What male feminist does that?  Are you saying that is the interpretation? 

I dunno, I feel like I maybe understand where you're coming from, but also mostly not at all.  I guess I don't know what I would do if I encountered a female who shunned me for being someone who supports her rights as a female, but I would probably not make it seem as though I or my views on what feminism is are superior to hers.  Luckily I have not found myself in that situation, I guess. 
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Re: women and music
« Reply #111 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:38 »

No, it was more I felt disenfranchised in myself. I never called myself a feminist because I used to live with active feminists who hated the appropriation of what they viewed as their liberation movement. Try as you might to be sympathetic, you're never going to fully understand all the subtleties and nuances of actually being a female and thus, you're not really going to be able to think and act the same way.

I've never really understood this hang-up and maybe you can explain it to me. Why does not fully understanding the "female experience" preclude you from identifying as a feminist? I feel like, yeah, obviously there are some fundamental biological differences and, stemming from that, certain societal expectations that each of us respond to, consciously or otherwise, depending on our gender. But I don't feel like there is some sort of immutable experience of gender. I don't feel like because I am a woman, I understand all women or that I can speak for all women as an authority on the experience of being a woman. I also feel, in a way, as if you are almost not giving yourself enough credit. You know that women, being primarily human, eat, sleep, and do any number of other human things. You also do a lot of those same things; you don't have to sympathize with an experience that you don't understand because a lot of that experience is bridgeable. And when those experiences aren't bridge-able (like you probably are never gonna grow a baby inside yourself or get followed home by a crazy-looking fellow), then yeah, of course, that is a good place to defer to someone who knows what's up.

Also, with respect to the risk of making feminism another male-dominated sphere -- maybe I'm too new to it, but I've honestly never met any loud-mouth-man-feminists. I have met precious few male feminists, and a few more thoughtful men who wouldn't think to use the label/don't label themselves as feminist for any number of (fairly problematic) reasons but who none-the-less appear to me to be thinking critically about women's issues. And they are, by and large, doing a lot more listening than talking (anecdotal generalization what what). I guess I am curious if when you say "male-dominated sphere" if you are talking about the risk of becoming male-dominated applying to academia in specific, or in a broader sense, culturally or something?

Shifting gears back to the original topic, I remember when I was young (Clara the Pre-Teen era or thereabouts) I went to this friend's birthday party that had boys at it, possibly the first boy-girl party I'd gone to since toddlerhood (that's probably a gross exaggeration, but anyways it was a very big deal to the birthday girl that boys were there and I did remember it feeling sort of new somehow), and anyways I was talking to this one boy about the White Stripes and he was like, "Man I love them, but that girl can't drum" followed by a general "Can girls play music?" soliloquy. And I remember I was like, "Heh, yeah" and sort of wracking my brain for some sort of counterexample and feeling suddenly woefully unlearned about what good drumming is or is not. I did not tell him that I thought he was wrong about his "girls playing music" ideas or that I didn't like the White Stripes or even that I played piano for several years and could probably out-music him and whatever lame guitar tabs he learned on the internet. Which is to say, the language of female inadequacy can make even bright, competent women shut up, and it's an important thing to keep in mind and consciously work against. So, there.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #112 on: 03 Mar 2011, 16:41 »

Okay yeah and five posts just posted while I wrote that addressing basically the same issue, I feel better now.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #113 on: 03 Mar 2011, 17:36 »

I'm not saying don't call yourself a feminist if you're a man, I'm saying I don't and won't in the future because I've met a lot of very active feminists who found it offensive.

I can definitely appreciate that you are choosing to represent yourself in a certain way, but I sort of wonder if this line of thinking doesn't hit a wall somehow? Like I personally, as a feminist, wished feminism would evolve to create a space/role for men -- as good fathers, good partners, good colleagues, etc. -- because I feel like so many of the practical, day-to-day issues facing women today (domestic abuse/rape, wage gaps, reproductive rights) would lessen if we put the onus on men to stop thinking of women as lesser or other and to recognize they are deserving of respect and fair treatment in both public and private spheres. Doesn't that sort of mean, by trying not to step on the toes of feminists you know and agree with, you are stepping on my toes?

It's obvious you've thought about it and I'm not trying to convince you of using the label if it's not for you. It's just, to be completely honest, when I meet some man who could potentially label himself as feminist and he chooses not to, it kind of registers to me as a cop-out somehow (I am probably a lot like Johnny C's friends in that way?). I'm not accusing you of copping out, it's just

I invited you to a party and you didn't go and my feelings got hurt  :-(
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2011, 17:43 by Yunior »
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ALoveSupreme

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Re: women and music
« Reply #114 on: 03 Mar 2011, 18:21 »

Like I personally, as a feminist, wished feminism would evolve to create a space/role for men -- as good fathers, good partners, good colleagues, etc. -- because I feel like so many of the practical, day-to-day issues facing women today (domestic abuse/rape, wage gaps, reproductive rights) would lessen if we put the onus on men to stop thinking of women as lesser or other and to recognize they are deserving of respect and fair treatment in both public and private spheres.

This.

And, yeah, guys who take women's studies classes to "pick up chicks" are fucking pricks, since when has there never been a fucking prick within a movement that doesn't represent it.

To this logic, white people should not support equality among races and just keep their mouths shut and never try to take Black/African American Studies courses in college to educate themselves?  Sorry, I'm really not buying any of that at all.
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2011, 18:23 by ALoveSupreme »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #115 on: 03 Mar 2011, 18:35 »

The vocal majority who do it for reasons which are absolutely at odds with feminism. The assholes who take courses on women's studies to be in a class which will be predominantly females. The frustrated pseudo-paternal ultra-patronising males who definitely know more than mere women do about being female. The suspiciously super duper sex-positive men who are looking for a positive spin on their porn addictions. Mother fetishists who are looking for surrogate female acceptance in the face of social disinterest from sensible women. I could go on and on and on.

This logic to steer clear of identifying as a male feminist based on this just literally drives me crazy!

I mean, when I think about all the assholes who play music ONLY TO GET LAID or to "party brah" or whatever lame reason and not because they appreciate the history or the theory or the art or whatever... that doesn't mean I put my cornet or my saxophone or my guitar down and stop listening to and playing music and just bow out.  I do it because it is right for me and so effing what if those people are an embarrassment to what I consider an extremely important aspect of my life.   If you think something like feminism is right then why would you allow your opinion to be swayed by people like that?

AAAUUUGH I know I should get so crazy about this and I apologize and I don't mean to be such a jerk to you but this apparent apathy because of the actions of others just does not sit right.
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Johnny C

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Re: women and music
« Reply #116 on: 04 Mar 2011, 00:02 »

I don't think a man can honestly claim to understand being a women and thus, I think they should defer on all matters which differentiate the sexes. We're talking literally the difference between men using the term feminist (which they are bizarrely adamant about being allowed to use, you notice?) and another slightly more respectable, dare I say it, modest term like pro-feminist, profeminist or feminist sympathiser etc.

what about trans/genderqueer/etc. individuals, are they allowed to call themselves feminists
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Johnny C

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Re: women and music
« Reply #117 on: 04 Mar 2011, 00:05 »

i mean what i am trying to get at is that the literal use of the term "feminism" seems like kind of a weird place to draw the line and start practicing biological essentialism
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Re: women and music
« Reply #118 on: 04 Mar 2011, 05:34 »

Well that sucks Tommy because I'm labelling YOU a feminist.

You're a feminist.

Everyone's a feminist! Except the people who aren't.
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Elysiana

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Re: women and music
« Reply #119 on: 04 Mar 2011, 05:52 »

I also don't understand why men shouldn't be allowed to call themselves feminists. Are we using the same definition of feminism? It feels like you're attaching something extra to it, or that you're assuming that those who do are correct.

Which of course is fine; I'm just wondering what you define it as?
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ALoveSupreme

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Re: women and music
« Reply #120 on: 04 Mar 2011, 06:36 »

To this logic, white people should not support equality among races and just keep their mouths shut and never try to take Black/African American Studies courses in college to educate themselves?  Sorry, I'm really not buying any of that at all.

By all means go but don't black yourself up and tell people you know what it's like to be African American.

It feels like you have encountered every kind of asshole male faux-feminist ever.  

My problem with your definitions of what you have seen in males in feminism is that none of these traits are feminist traits.  They're traits of people that are assholes.  

A suburb-y white kid that puts on a backward cap and some baggy jeans and starts talking like Seth Green from Can't Hardly Wait once they get into a black studies course isn't someone who is interested in the gradual "eradication" of racism.  He's just an asshole.
And a dude that takes a women's studies course that wants to "meet chicks" isn't a feminist. He's an asshole.

Either way, yes, I completely agree with you.  People like this are an insult to black people and women.  But what I'm gathering from your stance is that every other white person and every other male should just "stay out of it," because of people like this?  Actually, from the quote above it's o.k. for someone that is not black to take a course to educate themselves but guys who take women's studies courses are jerks?

I think this is becoming a cyclical argument and obviously no one here will be "changing anyone's mind" on the internet, but of all the weirdest and most foreign-to-me viewpoints I have ever encountered on the internet, this one takes the cake.  I don't mean offense by that, I'm just trying to give a rationale for why I keep responding, I usually don't let myself get into such long winded "internet debates" like this.
« Last Edit: 04 Mar 2011, 06:40 by ALoveSupreme »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #121 on: 04 Mar 2011, 09:08 »

How much of the effort put into discussing the meaning of the label "feminism", and who is allowed to wear it, has any effect on the possible progress towards greater equity or equality?  In fact, does not arguing about it too much end up discrediting the whole idea in many people's minds to some extent?
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Re: women and music
« Reply #122 on: 04 Mar 2011, 09:33 »

Tommy, for some reason what you'd said before had led me to believe that you didn't want to call yourself a feminist because female feminists thought it was wrong that you should. I don't know why, but it wasn't clear to me that YOU are trying to distance yourself from those who call themselves feminists wrongly. Is this closer to what you are saying? To some extent I can understand that, but (I hate this example, it feels trite at this point, I apologize) just because the WBC calls themselves Christians doesn't mean that those who truly follow a Christ-like path should not also call themselves Christians; or that because some of the proponents of racial equity have gone off the deep end, those who are truly fighting for equality should feel the need to step back.

That's not to say you are wrong (I don't feel that any of this is a matter of right and wrong); but I do feel sad that you feel it's gotten to the point where the vocal minority has hurt the cause so much as to have to distance yourself from the name of the movement because of the fear/frustration that you will be misunderstood. Has the word "feminist" really become that loaded? If so, I feel like something has gone terribly wrong somewhere along the line.

Labels frustrate me to begin with. I hate that we as humans feel the need to put things in little boxes and then act like we understand them. Labels shouldn't define us, but they tend to give us that book cover that people judge us by.

<edit > P.S. Thank you for being patient with all my questions and prodding; my brain has been kind of muddled lately. I'm not meaning to argue, just needing to clarify for my sake. </edit>
« Last Edit: 04 Mar 2011, 09:35 by Elysiana »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #123 on: 04 Mar 2011, 10:47 »

There are also, like, legions of women who misappropriate the label for transparent political gain and whose conceptualization of feminism is, to my mind, fairly antifeminist. Like, should I drop the label because Sarah Palin tries to join the club? To me, that's just more reason to be loud about taking ownership of the label and pointing out the ways I disagree with her and the ways in which I feel she's sullied the label by tacking it onto her own political views.

It really is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for pro-feminist/feminist men, so I can appreciate the lengths you've gone to find a label that works for you and your conceptualization of feminism. But I'm just saying, y'know, open invitation from me to you, or if you just wanna whisper the label quietly to yourself from time to time, it wouldn't, like, explode my brain or anything.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #124 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:29 »

There are also, like, legions of women who misappropriate the label for transparent political gain and whose conceptualization of feminism is, to my mind, fairly antifeminist. Like, should I drop the label because Sarah Palin tries to join the club? To me, that's just more reason to be loud about taking ownership of the label and pointing out the ways I disagree with her and the ways in which I feel she's sullied the label by tacking it onto her own political views.

I think that is why it is important to understand the ideology of feminism, be confident in it, and correctly assert it.  If someone claims to be a feminist then you can make general claims about their beliefs.  If they come back and say, "That isn't what I meant, I don't believe that," then you can call them on being feminist.  If I, as a man, claim to be feminist and am told by a woman also claiming to be a feminist that because of my gender I can't be a feminist, then I would call her out on understanding what the feminist ideology is.  That is not to advocate calling people out on their beliefs as a fallacy monger, but rather the right to question someone's convictions who questions yours.  Or, question people who claim equality and hypocritically assert the antithesis.  It can all seem very semantical, but it is important to avoid confusion and assert equality.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #125 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:49 »

I just noticed my "message under my username" ("position" title?) is "Vagina Manifesto."  ... is this by coincidence or is someone making fun of me  :?
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Re: women and music
« Reply #126 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:50 »

coincidence
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Quote from: KvP
Also I would like to point out that the combination of Sailor Moon and faux-Kerouac / Sonic Youth spelling is perhaps the purest distillation of what this forum is that we have yet been presented with.

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Re: women and music
« Reply #127 on: 04 Mar 2011, 11:51 »

Then that is sort of amazing.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #128 on: 04 Mar 2011, 12:49 »

If someone claims to be a feminist then you can make general claims about their beliefs.

Yes, feminism is a monolith and all feminists think exactly like. Ergo, we can safely conclude that, in addition to fighting for gender equality, feminists are all man-hating, bra-burning, nazi lesbian shitasses who abort babies on their lunch-break and don't shave their pubes
No
NO
DON'T CORRECT ME I SAID IT AND I'M A FEMINIST SO I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE A STUPID MAN PERSON WITH A PENIS GO AWAY
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KvP

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Re: women and music
« Reply #129 on: 04 Mar 2011, 13:27 »

Like I said earlier I think the waffling over where men fit into feminist movements is a valid thing. I've been called a "feminist man" by people whose credentials I find beyond reproach but it honestly doesn't really come up that much and when it does it's brought up by people whose credentials aren't. I've never really felt comfortable in feminist orgs, but then, that's not really their problem.

But I guess the main thing here is that the way all this came up kind of smacks of power-evasiveness. There's feminist being and there's feminist action, and all the hemming and hawing over the former seems (to me) to be a method for avoiding the latter. It really should not matter what you identify yourself as. A "pro-feminist" man rendered passive by the weight of his own privilege is as useless to feminism as a man with no conception of privilege at all. It's something you see all the fucking time. It's what happens when a man learns ugly things about pervasive oppression and cannot deny or forget it. Passivity, in a lot of ways, is probably the most profound expression of privilege. The ability to throw up your hands and say "this is impossible and I can do no good and I'll only complicate things" is an option that men have because they're not affected by the things women are. It's a way of living comfortably with inequality, and it's the coward's way out.

You're not going to be a perfect feminist, nobody is. You're not going to have a "real" cognizance of the female experience, no one does. You are going to fuck up, but that really shouldn't matter, and cognizance and humility are the only things that should be expected of you. You just have to learn to be derided by misguided and misinformed people  (don't you already do that, as someone who is not really all that "normal"?) and be content with the small clutch of people who will understand and support you, and get more derision than support in general. Your experience as a feminist isn't really going to be all that different from a woman's in that regard.

When it gets to the point that you can't give name to a problem (female underrepresentation in a form of music that is deemed more "real" and "authentic" than all others) because doing so as a man is somehow counterproductive in remedying it, that's a point at which your conception of male feminism has gone tits-up, so to speak. It's worse than useless.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #130 on: 04 Mar 2011, 13:31 »

But I'm just saying, y'know, open invitation from me to you, or if you just wanna whisper the label quietly to yourself from time to time, it wouldn't, like, explode my brain or anything.

Regardless, from roughly a thousand conversations with women who are against the notion of males as feminists, I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

omg you've said this like a thousand times and I am not trying to get you to call yourself a feminist and I completely respect why you wouldn't want to, I was just being nice for chrissake

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Re: women and music
« Reply #131 on: 04 Mar 2011, 16:08 »

If I, as a man, claim to be feminist and am told by a woman also claiming to be a feminist that because of my gender I can't be a feminist, then I would call her out on understanding what the feminist ideology is.

You know there's a bunch of different interpretations of feminist ideology right?

Like, you might be wrong. She might be right.

I generally operate and speak from the point of view of liberal feminism.  And, assume the same of others unless otherwise specified.  I don't think I've ever met anyone that claimed to be a feminist who meant it as a conservative feminist, nor would I expect that I am having a long discussion on the topic with a radical feminist.  I'm not trying to say there is a ridged structure of uniform thought in the ideology, but to realize that all ideologies have basic tenants that must be subscribed to in order to be of that ideology.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #132 on: 04 Mar 2011, 16:56 »

What viewpoints and opinions are universal to all feminists? I can't think of anything that I can't easily bust apart and I'm far from an expert on the spectrum of feminist thought, though I know the basics.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #133 on: 05 Mar 2011, 03:49 »

And the rest.  I can't help feeling that once enough people simply live this way, it will truly have more effect than -isms, which are seen by so many as divisive in their own right.  Can we head straight for that goal, or do we have no alternative but to go through the pain of the imperfect route that we seem to be on at present?  I simply don't know.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #134 on: 05 Mar 2011, 03:55 »

That people should be regarded as equals regardless of sex/gender?
Sort of? Liberal feminism and its satellites, yeah absolutely, that's the whole premise. Difference feminists wouldn't argue for equality, but instead for a revaluation of things that make people different. And there are spheres where most feminists would argue against equality - most would not support equal say for both parents of a growing fetus, for example. It would be generally (but not universally) agreed that the mother's judgment should be more valid than the father's. Lots of Dominance feminists would find "gender-blindness" highly suspect, etc.

Also ideally feminists are concerned with things beyond sex and gender, but that's as much an activism issue as an intersectionality one.
« Last Edit: 05 Mar 2011, 03:57 by KvP »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #135 on: 05 Mar 2011, 04:00 »

most would not support equal say for both parents of a growing fetus, for example.

But that is designing inequality into a system which should surely be aiming at equality.  However, equality needs to be measured right - say, equivalence of respect for each person's contribution, which would automatically deal with the case of the foetus, for instance.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #136 on: 05 Mar 2011, 05:11 »

I just realised that in this thread Tommy is a dude who is saying who can and can't be a feminist, which is pretty funny when you think about it.

Would you really lump all people and ideas involved in the 'men's movement' or whatever in as misogynists? Though many (most?) of the people who identify as such are reactionary there are those who are not, and there are issues (conscription, street violence, violence and sexual violence in male-only prisons, etc.) which are important but don't necessarily fall under the remit of feminism (nor should they, feminism is about helping women). There are people who write on these topics who are explicitly not hostile to feminism. The important thing about oppressive systems like male privilege is to realise that, whilst mainting the moral distinction between the oppressor (especially the witting oppressor) and the oppressed, such systems have negative impacts on the oppressors as well. Almost no one in an oppressive system is really free. Abstract concepts like 'honour', 'manhood' and whatnot, intimately tied up with the social system that oppresses women, have lead many men to pointless misery and death over the years, whilst also fuelling the oppression of women. Why this realisation is important is because many men have the mentality that for the goals of feminism to succeed they will have to give up something, whilst actually the liberation of women from the social construct of femininity results in the liberation of men from the social construct of masculinity (and of course the liberation of LGBT people from basically everything).
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Re: women and music
« Reply #137 on: 05 Mar 2011, 06:46 »

ITT everyone agrees, but disagrees that they are agreeing!
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Re: women and music
« Reply #138 on: 05 Mar 2011, 11:41 »

I really, really do not think we are agreeing. Tommy has his particular strain of feminism that makes sense to him, but puts him in a bit of a bind label-wise because that strain does not want any of Tommy's meddling. And honestly that makes perfect sense if you give it more than maybe five seconds of thought? Like, of course feminism should be wary of absorbing men. Not because men are actively bad people (insert Tommy's probable dissent here), but because a feminism that is successfully absorbing a lot of men has probably changed itself to make it more palliative to men, and ideas that are palliative to men are historically not very good for women. And then everyone in this thread (sorry to lump us all together, I'm not suggesting we all think alike), operating from their own conceptualization of feminism that differs from Tommy's, is like, Tommy, you should call yourself a feminist! And he is like, nooo. And we are like, yeah! Yeah yeah yeah!

Unless I'm incorrectly representing the thread, there is a fundamental disagreement about what feminism should look like going on here. Neither is without merit, but they are fairly different.
« Last Edit: 05 Mar 2011, 11:47 by Yunior »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #139 on: 05 Mar 2011, 13:44 »

yeah, we're talking about appropriation here, which is very, very thorny. i should really stress that personally i didn't wake up one day and say "i'm going to start calling myself a feminist now," nor did i reach that conclusion after reading a bunch of feminist theory and agreeing (largely) with it; in fact, up until about last spring, i used "profeminist" myself. it was only after basically being argued into it by women that i saw it as something acceptable. tommy said earlier in the thread to defer to the people who know and i really, really doubt the women i've talked to on the subject would tell me that identifying myself as a feminist is acceptable in order to like soothe me somehow, or whatever it would accomplish, especially since i made it pretty clear that it wasn't an uncomfortable choice. if anyone is reading this thread and actually on the fence about this, i'd encourage you to talk to the women in your life and defer to them, as well. equality in a broad ethical sense is meant to benefit everybody, but that doesn't mean members of the oppressing group automatically have the right to put on the equality team jersey, you know?

i should also point out that it almost never comes up, outside of discussions with feminist/profeminist types. most conversations you don't go around stating your own personal ideology or conveying the things you identify yourself as. even moreso for actually taking action. what speaks is the action, first and foremost.
« Last Edit: 05 Mar 2011, 13:46 by Johnny C »
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Re: women and music
« Reply #140 on: 05 Mar 2011, 13:51 »

That people should be regarded as equals regardless of sex/gender?
Tell that to the transwomen that get kicked out of feminist women-only gatherings.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #141 on: 05 Mar 2011, 14:37 »

Some might disagree, but I think that has been an A+ thread so far. Good debating peeps. It has, however, moved away from talking about one of the two most important words in the title. While discussions of feminism/women equality issues are obviously very important, this was a thread to discuss it in the sphere of music.

In respect to that, I've been reading some interesting books on music which touch on its' evolutionary basis. One of the theories is that in caveman days, musical talent was indicative of spare time and a solid life foundation; if you could play an instrument well you had to have plenty of food and a good house so you could waste your hours learning an instrument and this made you more attractive to potential mates. Thus a culture arose where an evolutionary advantage was to be gained by men playing instruments well, and perhaps we are still used to this. I'm unsure as to how much I agree with the theory (particularly as it isn't the only theory on why we make music), and would like to think it should cease to matter in civilised society, but perhaps not.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #142 on: 05 Mar 2011, 14:53 »

While evo psych is fun to think about, it's best to take it with a humongous grain of salt. Most if not all of the time it is generally used to explain and reinforce existing gender norms (cavemen being theorized as sexually aggressive hunters, for example, justifies views of women as sexless and weak and men as violent).

Anyway, the better theory is that appreciation for / ability to create music is a happy byproduct of being creatures that have the ability to process and use complex vocalizations to communicate. Animals that have the ability to communicate, however simply, with vocalizations have been shown to respond to music in ways other animals don't.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #143 on: 05 Mar 2011, 15:31 »

Anyway, the better theory is that appreciation for / ability to create music is a happy byproduct of being creatures that have the ability to process and use complex vocalizations to communicate. Animals that have the ability to communicate, however simply, with vocalizations have been shown to respond to music in ways other animals don't.

I'd be interested to read where you got this from, as from what I've read it's not similar, as in humans are the only species to value music as an activity in-and-of itself with no obvious role outside of attracting mates. Songbirds etc seem to use it exclusively of attracting partners by creating the most complex lines they can, whereas humans use it to bond as a social group among other reasons.

Also, I agree with you that it is a potential minefield and can be used to reinforce stereotypes, I think it can also be used to avoid those same stereotypes. We're a civilised society, and as such should be rejecting cavemen-like behaviour such as the "role" (ugh) of women wrt (in this discussion) music. However, it could help explain how we arrived at the point we have.
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Re: women and music
« Reply #144 on: 05 Mar 2011, 15:56 »

Quote
I'd be interested to read where you got this from, as from what I've read it's not similar, as in humans are the only species to value music as an activity in-and-of itself with no obvious role outside of attracting mates
Traits don't need an obvious role or benefit to be selected, they only need not kill whatever they're exhibited in. It's one of the little annoying things about evo psych, that every little thing that people do has something directly to do with finding a mate or food or whatever. It doesn't really work that way.

Anyway here's some article. This is a derail so if you want to, you should start another thread.
« Last Edit: 05 Mar 2011, 16:01 by KvP »
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