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Author Topic: LITURGY is fixing heavy metal, and there's nothing you can do to stop them  (Read 40343 times)

Koremora

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Definitely. Consciously choosing to not have a context for your art is as important a decision as choosing a context.
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Akima

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"If I could articulate it, I wouldn't have made the picture."
Oh so very much. Or, in a musical context, as Louis Armstrong put it: "Man, if you gotta ask, you'll never know."
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"I would rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned." Richard Feynman

StaedlerMars

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i dunno about that, necessarily! there's a lot i've been convinced to re-evaluate after hearing people talk about it.

eg. Silkworm
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Expect lots of screaming, perversely fast computer drums and guitars tuned to FUCK

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michaelicious

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Just because a book isn't Ulysses doesn't mean it's not worth a critical analysis. I might go further to say that it is even a bit irresponsible to not read 'teen-lit' critically*. It may not be High Modernism, but all these books about vampires and shit still participate in the cultural narrative of late capitalist adolescence. It would actually be pretty interesting to trace how that narrative has changed since teens became a significant demographic like fifty years ago.

*Not that I am saying people should go out of their way to read it if they don't want to.
« Last Edit: 18 Apr 2011, 06:22 by michaelicious »
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KharBevNor

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i'm actually deliberately not because i still haven't sat down and listened to a liturgy song. i just find the whole "the author is dead the art is the only thing that can and should speak" to be like horribly reactionary + rooted in weird 60s revolutionary art ideology that like fifty years later i think it seems weird to be stuck on.

How is it reactionary? Also, the general idea these days is not that the author's opinion is meaningless but that it is not priviliged over the opinions of audience and critics. And that you like criticism, so...?
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

David_Dovey

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It's a total strawman to act like the reason we are dumping on the guy is simply because he has the temerity to talk about his work. The reason Liturgy is so goddamned hilarious is because the dude's rhetoric is a million miles away from his music, because he draws on a whole bunch of other texts which I think he perceives to be really high-minded but are in fact pretty obvious (seriously man, congratulations on invoking Stravinsky in a talk about a metal band, 'cos like that's never ever been done before) and really the whole thing just stinks of that whole teenager thing of grabbing at whatever you can and tossing them together in some hodgepodge manner in an attempt to make yr shitty little milieu seem more important + relevant than it actually is except this guy isn't a teenager, he's a grown-ass man and his band makes records and is on a label and gets covered by major media outlets and he gets to deliver his poorly-informed attempts at intellectualising at fucking symposia.

Seriously JohnnyC, go and listen to a Liturgy tune, and then tell me if you hear all of the influences HHH tosses around. Honestly, there's a good chance you'd find it funnier than most people, seeing as you've read this much about the dude's pontificating without hearing a note of music, I imagine you've probably built up some amount of expectations re: the music and it's gotta be fun seeing those expectations so thoroughly debunked.

tuathal's pretty much on the right track even if his opinions on Jackson Pollock be some bullshit
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tommydski

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Coldplay are safe, bland and boring. The very definition of conventional.

By comparison, Pollock's art is esoteric, ambiguous and imaginative. Overall very unconventional.

It's not an apt comparison in my mind.
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KvP

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It kinda reminds me of when I used to read Rolling Stone as a kid and there was some interview with Jonathon Davis where he cited Miles Davis as a huge influence on Korn. Sure dude. Sure.
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tommydski

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To be fair, lots of Black Metal musicians genuinely do take direct inspiration from classical music composers.

For me it wasn't the academic manifesto which I found funny, it was the notion that they were doing something startlingly new. They're like twenty years behind the times.
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Cernunnos

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By comparison, Pollock's art is esoteric, ambiguous and imaginative. Overall very unconventional.

It's kind of funny, he both was and wasn't. He fits very well into Clement Greenberg's conception of high modernism, which is indeed esoteric and ambiguous, but by that token he was conventional because that movement was canonized by a well-positioned mass of critics, collectors and curators. And as Tuathal is picking up on, a lot of people really really don't like it and with good reason which I won't go into here because it's a music thread. Suffice to say, so much has been written against this artistic school of thought that its legacy has actually been reinforced by it. At the same time it's unconventional, because the visual qualities of the work were so original. All the big names- Rothko, DeKooning, motherwell, etc., look nothing like him. He's had plenty of imitators and been referenced a thousand times, but just as you always know a Rothko when you see one, you know a Pollock when you see one.

...Which is another way of saying tommy's right, the comparison to Coldplay isn't apt. You only know it's a Coldplay song because their lead singer's voice is easy to recognize.
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nufan

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As Martin Scorcese said when asked to describe the point of Taxi Driver; "If I could articulate it, I wouldn't have made the picture."

In a similar vein, Beethoven was asked what his Third Symphony "meant". His reply was to go over to the piano and start playing it.
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tommydski

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...but by that token he was conventional because that movement was canonized by a well-positioned mass of critics, collectors and curators.

This brings us full circle to tuathal's original comparison of Liturgy and Pollock being accidentally apt because that's basically my criticism of this band.

They seem to posit the notion of originality and transcendence but in fact, they are comparatively late on in the game. People have already made this music and made it better.
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De_El

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... that movement was canonized by a well-positioned mass of critics, collectors and curators.

Not to mention the CIA! And yet I can't really bring myself to hate them, despite the spooks propping them up.

Lummer

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It would be interesting to see how HHH would react if someone would play a Deathspell Omega song to him.
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KvP

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His Deathspell Omega phase was years ago
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Lummer

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Well, then it doesn't really compute for me that his stuff sounds the way Black Metal did ten years before "Si Monumentum..." dropped.
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Tom

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Oh dear, TMT really likes this record.
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David_Dovey

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Well yeah, but they also showed their hand re: their knowledge of and attitudes towards metal in the first paragraph. Namely that they don't know dick and don't really care to try. Oh and that metal is all "thuggish brutality, reactionary conservatism, and senseless misanthropy?" and that's "self-evident". Maybe not to anyone who actually listens to metal.

So of course they fucking love the Liturgy album.
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SWOON! at My Gravitas

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The Swans comparisons irk me, because Hunter Hunt-Hendrix is the kind of person I like to think Michael Gira would loathe.

But then, he recorded a guitar part for the bonus disc of the latest Swans album, soooo

Also, Pitchfork rated Aesthetica about as well as they have ever rated a metal album.  Neither review mentions how ridiculous and annoying the song 'Glass Earth' is
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David_Dovey

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Yeah Michael Gira, for all his other upsides, seems to have really dogshit taste in bands and musicians he chooses to support (Akron/Family blowwwssssss wooo)
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JD

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Flux Information Sciences is rad though
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KvP

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But then, he recorded a guitar part for the bonus disc of the latest Swans album, soooo
Wait really

If I'm not scared to death of him I'm going to have Words with Gira next time he comes through (I will be scared to death)
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Tom

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Seeing that review on TMT was pretty disappointing, they were one of the few "indie" review sites I still gave a damn about.
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Everybody makes mistakes! They ain't no Cokemachineglow, that's for damned sure.
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Tom

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Eurgh, so pretentious.
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Nodaisho

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The album is decent, except for the pretentious bits. If you cut those out (The a capella, the stupid keyboard loop) you would have a pretty good album, minus 5-10 minutes.
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KvP

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I kind of feel like this is what Steve Albini would do if he was commissioned to do a BM record??
...
Full disclosure: Iíve known the guitarist Hunter since we were both in the same English Lit grad program at Colombia
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tommydski

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I like the idea that Steve Albini has any say at all in what bands who record with him sound like.

He's recorded a ton of metal bands and all he did was set up some mics and hit record, same as any other person who comes into the studio.
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Nodaisho

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Wait, are we talking about people that record at his studio, or that hire him as a producer? I would think that a producer would have a heavier influence on the sound than that.
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David_Dovey

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Welp seeing as Albini has made a whole career out of pointedly not being a "producer" in any capacity I'm guessing it's the other thing
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Nodaisho

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Not saying you are wrong, but I've seen repeated references to the last two Weedeater albums being produced by Albini. Not sure why they would do that if they just recorded at his studio.
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KvP

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Retailers and reviewers will call Albini a producer but he abhors the title and will refuse credit. I don't think he even allows it to be put in liner notes.
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tommydski

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There are hundreds of interviews online where Albiz talks about this but basically he won't have any influence over the sound of the band unless they repeatedly beg him and even then he'll just give them a bunch of options based on equipment he has available. He doesn't like or use the term producer, he's a recordist or an engineer or more likely would just like to remain uncredited entirely since he will work with basically anyone and has no influence on the sound of anyone who records with him - other than very loose notions like giving specific advice on the usage and placement of particular microphones.

In a manner of speaking, hiring Albini is a stylistic choice of sorts just because he's going to use a minimalist approach by default, unless specifically commanded to do otherwise. Beyond that, he has little to no influence on the music he is recording on any given day.
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Johnny C

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well except insofar as he is really great at mic placement and making things sound like they were recorded in a room as opposed to a computer cave, plus his drums always sound really great
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Tom

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I love yr av club avatar, kveep.
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Late 80's / Early 90's-ish Gen P. Orridge w/ kabuki hitler makeup = all-time favorite
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Zingoleb

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at the risk of sounding incredibly stupid, I thought that was Tom Waits.
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Tom

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talking about a different av on a different site
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tommydski

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Some dude sent HHH an open letter. It's pretty funny.
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Jimmy the Squid

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Ok, I've listened to a few of Liturgy's tracks now so I feel I can contribute to this, as a man currently handling the vocals of a black metal band (ok, prog. black metal but whatevs). Fuck this band. They are competent musicians but their songcraft is boring as hell. The vocals are almost comical, sure they're pretty good screeches but I don't feel any kind of emotion behind them and I've always thought black metal was supposed to be emotive as fuck. The whole thing just sounds...impotent. All I hear (and granted this is coloured by reading this thread and the dude's writing before hearing any of their music) is boring music played by boring people, completely without feeling or emotional investment in what they're doing.

Fuck. This. Band.
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KvP

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Some dude sent HHH an open letter. It's pretty funny.
I really really need a copy of Transcendental Black Metal
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Really the best thing is that he goes on and never mentions Chris Grigg by name, which is super twatty! Dude should run for office.
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SWOON! at My Gravitas

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Quote
All I know is that I am not the arch-enemy of the black metal community, and that the internet is a crazy thing.

I think he probably should have stopped himself here
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Lummer

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God, what an arrogant little twat. One of my friends keeps defending these guys (mainly because the drummer is a real stand-up guy) but goddamnit... This guy really needs to chill the hell out.

That said, Chris Grigg is awesome. The last Woe album kicks ass.
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