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Poll

What's on for the end of the week?

4 panels of embarrassed silence
- 18 (20.7%)
Running away for ever
- 1 (1.1%)
Bitter recriminations
- 2 (2.3%)
Hugs for closure and acceptance
- 25 (28.7%)
Make-up makeout!
- 4 (4.6%)
Rest of cast jump out shouting "Surprise!"
- 3 (3.4%)
We see something happening in the party
- 4 (4.6%)
Tai rushes out and shoves Marten aside
- 8 (9.2%)
AnthroPCs
- 9 (10.3%)
Jeph has his first day off for years, & no guest strip either
- 13 (14.9%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)  (Read 151783 times)

jwhouk

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #550 on: 08 Jul 2011, 17:03 »

Really?  I don't remember being that impressed with her belittling skills.
I think it's worth noting that we know next to nothing about her other than Angus' version of the story, which wasn't terribly in-depth anyway. It's also worth noting that part of the reason she's got a bad rep so early on may be because we've been led to project Faye's personality on her. Just sayin.


I know that some of the posters on here might not understand this, but Renee is a little foul-mouthed. Except for that very first scene of hers, any dialogue she's had in the strip has had at least one cuss word (definition: one of the seven words you can't say on TV, according to Mr. Carlin).
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #551 on: 08 Jul 2011, 17:11 »

The only time I remember her saying anything is that something was on fire or that she was bored at the bar.  So...am I forgetting something?
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iduguphergrave

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #552 on: 08 Jul 2011, 17:21 »

Really?  I don't remember being that impressed with her belittling skills.
I think it's worth noting that we know next to nothing about her other than Angus' version of the story, which wasn't terribly in-depth anyway. It's also worth noting that part of the reason she's got a bad rep so early on may be because we've been led to project Faye's personality on her. Just sayin.


I know that some of the posters on here might not understand this, but Renee is a little foul-mouthed. Except for that very first scene of hers, any dialogue she's had in the strip has had at least one cuss word (definition: one of the seven words you can't say on TV, according to Mr. Carlin).

You're right; that's terrible. The rest of the cast NEVER swears.  /sarcasm
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #553 on: 08 Jul 2011, 17:25 »

I'm glad Dora and Marten are talking. I wonder if this means he won't be returning to tSB.
I really need to know if the whole world is weird or if it's just me: WHAT THE FUCK COULD HAPPEN RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD MAGICALLY MAKE MARTEN UNABLE TO VISIT THE SECRET BAKERY?

It's not that he'd be unable, but more "why bother?" I think. CoD has his social circle, access to tSB's baked delights, and (hopefully) now comes with less awkwardness.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #554 on: 08 Jul 2011, 17:31 »

I've got breaking up down to an art as far as it being a very simple "This isn't working for ______ reasons", giving them a hug or whatever if they handle it well/agree (most of the time the breakup is completely mutual) and we part ways.
If you break up often enough that you 'have it down to an art', I feel very sorry for you.

Unless you are a hermit or irredeemably desperate, you're going to go through many, many breakups in your teens and twenties.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #555 on: 08 Jul 2011, 18:09 »

You're right; that's terrible. The rest of the cast NEVER swears.  /sarcasm

True that - however, the cussing-to-not-cussing ratio in her dialogue is incredibly high compared to the rest of the cast.

Observe:

No cussing:
  • 1845 (First appearance)

Cussing:
Granted, that's a small sample size (and the rest of her appearances have been her sleeping on the job), but still.
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stoutfiles

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #556 on: 08 Jul 2011, 18:59 »

I'm glad Dora and Marten are talking. I wonder if this means he won't be returning to tSB.
I really need to know if the whole world is weird or if it's just me: WHAT THE FUCK COULD HAPPEN RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD MAGICALLY MAKE MARTEN UNABLE TO VISIT THE SECRET BAKERY?

Because Marten is all about routine.  He goes to work, goes to COD, goes to a bar, goes to bed.  Rinse and repeat.  The only changes in the routine are when his friends go somewhere.  TSB was just a replacement for COD, but now he has COD back!  Hooray!  Now he can do his regular routine while being miserable that he's doing nothing with his life.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #557 on: 08 Jul 2011, 19:29 »

Unless you are a hermit or irredeemably desperate, you're going to go through many, many breakups in your teens and twenties.

There really are quite a lot of points in between the three extremes you've just described, honestly.  :psyduck:
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #558 on: 08 Jul 2011, 19:32 »

What Toya said.  I'm nearing 24 and I've had, depending on how you define it, anywhere from zero to three breakups in my life.  Anyway, if this has been brought up before, cool, but if not, does anyone see more of Penelope than Faye in Renee?  And honestly, maybe it's because of Renee's short hair and piercings, but she looks more like a cross between Dora and Faye than just Faye.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #559 on: 08 Jul 2011, 19:44 »

Unless you are a hermit or irredeemably desperate, you're going to go through many, many breakups in your teens and twenties.
I wouldn't usually take issue about your wording, because I'm fully aware my situation is somewhat hard to compare. But I feel necessary to point out that, as far as I know,  you used simply the most offensive way to word this.

But since you seem to simply handle the One and Only Truth, you, on your side, won't have any problem being told you are telling it in the most dickish possible way.

In case I was unclear: I was willing to consider your arguments up to that post. Now my reaction is just "Fuck you, Tiogyr" until you're able to shake me out of considering you're just the base dick you're showing in that post.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #560 on: 08 Jul 2011, 19:49 »

Anyway, if this has been brought up before, cool, but if not, does anyone see more of Penelope than Faye in Renee?  And honestly, maybe it's because of Renee's short hair and piercings, but she looks more like a cross between Dora and Faye than just Faye.

I don't really see her as looking like any of those characters, to be honest. I certainly don't see any similarity with Faye. Tai, if anyone. I guess everyone will have a different idea depending on which feature they think is the most defining characteristic of each character.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #561 on: 08 Jul 2011, 19:49 »

Quote from: Schmorgluck

In case I was unclear: I was willing to consider your arguments up to that post. Now my reaction is just "Fuck you, Tiogyr" until you're able to shake me out of considering you're just the base dick you're showing in that post.

Take another look at how insultingly condescending the person I quoted was being before you get pissed at me for responding in kind.

I also explained myself pretty well in previous posts, so it was based on what I'd said before about dating in an urban area instead of bumfuck town where social options are significantly limited in comparison.

Also, I'm in a fair amount of pain after some minor surgery and inadequate painkillers, so I'm a little crankier than usual right now.
« Last Edit: 08 Jul 2011, 19:56 by Tiogyr »
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #562 on: 08 Jul 2011, 20:07 »

Take another look at how insultingly condescending the person I quoted was being before you get pissed at me for responding in kind.
Okay, I see it more now. I'm not sure about how to object however.

Quote
I also explained myself pretty well in previous posts, so it was based on what I'd said before about dating in an urban area instead of bumfuck town where social options are significantly limited in comparison.
What is "urban area"? What is "bumfuck town"?

Quote
Also, I'm in a fair amount of pain after some minor surgery and inadequate painkillers, so I'm a little crankier than usual right now.
Ah. I will give you the benefit of the doubt then, instead of assuming the worst.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #563 on: 08 Jul 2011, 20:14 »

Also, I'm in a fair amount of pain after some minor surgery and inadequate painkillers, so I'm a little crankier than usual right now.

Ouch. Sorry to hear it. I hope you recover quickly.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #564 on: 08 Jul 2011, 20:39 »

I'd just like to say that I'm very glad we're at this point; where Marten and Dora are finally facing one another.

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I've always seen QC as a story about Marten. Yes I enjoy the full cast, but ultimately the main story is about Marten, his life, and his evolution as a character. This is the second time now Marten has had to break up with a long-term girlfriend, and let's be fair here, that last one ended with a carton of milk in the face. What happens now with Dora: being friends, avoiding one another, or ultimately getting back together is going to further shape Marten's growth as a character. He's been stalled ever since the break up, so I find it satisfying that he's finally going to be forced to overcome this hurdle and move on.

More power to ye Jeph.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #565 on: 08 Jul 2011, 21:27 »

I went back to the main page and checked Jeph's twitter compulsively to see if there were any updates, or another strip.

Then I remembered, oh wait, shit, tomorrow morning is Saturday.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #566 on: 08 Jul 2011, 22:27 »

MODERATOR

Please remember that personal attacks are not tolerated here.  You should instead counter the argument, or provide contrary evidence, for example, or simply step back from the discussion until it moves on.

Discussion of relationships inevitably touches on personal matters and experience.  It helps to think of your own experience and that of others as examples  illustrating different approaches to life - remember that your experience does not in any way invalidate that of others.  So if you give details of your own experience, or that of others you know or know of, do it in a way that acknowledges that you are widening  the range of possibilities rather than restricting  it - otherwise you are likely to come over as arrogant, opinionated, or intolerant, which is when the unpleasantness starts.
« Last Edit: 08 Jul 2011, 22:30 by pwhodges »
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Dr. ROFLPWN

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #567 on: 08 Jul 2011, 23:59 »

Tiogyr, a question: would you consider it some sign of weakness on Marten's part, were he to choose being buddy-buddy best friends with Dora again?

If not, I wonder if you might clarify why this development makes you "bored"; is it because it's too cliché? Or...? Others among you might also clarify why you felt the need to be hostile to someone for holding the viewpoint that it is okay to be friends after a breakup, but you don't have to be.

If so, also curious: is this because you feel Dora is somehow "at fault", or that she is a bad person?
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 00:31 by Dr. ROFLPWN »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #568 on: 09 Jul 2011, 00:21 »

Unless you are a hermit or irredeemably desperate, you're going to go through many, many breakups in your teens and twenties.

Wow, what? Speak for you and the people you know, maybe, but in my circle that's just not true.

<moderator>post truncated to remove personal insults</moderator>
« Last Edit: 10 Jul 2011, 01:40 by guayec »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #569 on: 09 Jul 2011, 01:05 »

(collar-tug).. I better just come back on Monday, I think.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #570 on: 09 Jul 2011, 01:09 »

MODERATOR

Was my message above not clear?  There are ways to discuss these matters diplomatically.  Let me put it simply:

If the insults continue I will lock the thread.
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Dr. ROFLPWN

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #571 on: 09 Jul 2011, 01:20 »

...and you know what, lemme say something I've been meaning to say for a while.

If there is one phenomenon that I cannot fucking stand on these forums, it is the Cult of Marten. We joke that we're all Jeph's personality cult, but this loses much of its humor when you see that there is a real personality cult here, and in it Jeph is but a minor saint. What's really fucking going on is this fucking bizarre pedestal-raising, this deification, for Marten, as this gloriously wonderful and always good and basically flawless person. Even the people who say they dislike Marten like Marten, witness ChibiSoma's misogynistic bullshit rantings where what Marten SHOULD do is at the heart of things. (This is not meant as an insult; ChibiSoma's posts are one misogynistic bullshit rant after another. Literally.)

It makes me hate him. I didn't, formerly, but at this point my fondest wish in regards to QC is Marten's continued suffering. I was honestly hoping that Dora would start a new life with Jim right in front of Marten and that his other friends would hook up and he would be left utterly alone and devastated, and it would taste of justice.

Marten is not that bad a dude, in truth. I don't even know that he deserves a capital Nice Guy. But he is a dude who told his best friend, while she was trying to care for him, that she owed him sex for helping her, and essentially called her a slut. To her face. He is fucking lucky she values their friendship as much as she does, because she would have been well within her rights to end said friendship right the fuck then. What he did was misogynistic, victimizing horseshit. It showed that on some level, there is a scumbag in Marten. Yes, he was talking with a poisoned brain: I remember vividly trying to tell people that and getting back  choruses of "but but but in vino veritas." However, his poisoned brain does not wholly excuse what he said, and that Faye forgave him says a lot about how good a person Faye really is.

And what was the overwhelming response on this forum to those events? "Oh poor Marten oh you can't fault him for what he's saying he is so nice and he fucks up one time baaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww" with a light slice from fringe views of "fucking abusive whore why do you open your legs for all these other men when Marten deserves your peach, he has EARNED it". And I am just...I boggle. How the fuck? If someone said such things as Marten said, to you, in real life, wouldn't you lose some respect for them? Marten certainly lost much of mine, that day.

And afterwards, the trend has not abated. Marten is ever the victim, never at fault for anything. He is Marten the Blameless, Marten the Sufferer, twice betrayed, by a shrew and by a false Madonna: that is the note this forum sings unceasingly. And I am tired of it. It is why I totally understand Tiogyr's desire to remain apart from the "community." Hell, most of this board doesn't want to be part of a "community" with this forum: witness how they sequester themselves downboard in the Awkward Self-Aware Makeout Zone. To be part of a "community" is to bond arms with wrongheadedness, to be one of the hydra's heads, and I do not choose to be.
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 01:29 by Dr. ROFLPWN »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #572 on: 09 Jul 2011, 01:38 »

I guess that "staying friends"-thing just depends on what you expect from social relationships or what social relationships mean to you. I chose mine very carefully and I'm rather alone than with people who(m?) I'm just with because there are no other/better alternatives. (I'd find that pretty annoying.)
So for example this
"so there is no shortage of people to form new relationships with (I could see this being a problem in really rural communities, maybe, but not a bustling city)."
does not matter in any way for me, that's probably the reason why it seemed weird to me why anyone wouldn't bother about being friends after a relationship all out of a sudden.
(My English does things this morning. Sorry.)
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #573 on: 09 Jul 2011, 01:44 »

To clarify where my long-winded rant cometh from, it is both from reading back Tiogyr's posts to analyze his viewpoint, which is not really all that objectionable (to me), the tide of increasingly vituperative responses to the fellow for saying pretty reasonable shit, and the pounding hammer of Glorious Marten and his Righteousness that has kept me away from the forum for several weeks for my own safety.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #574 on: 09 Jul 2011, 02:54 »

The thing is though, if Marten stopped being the "Noble Victim" and actually manned up and went after what he wanted in life, would QC still be as enjoyable for you? I'm talking about the comic, not the forums, of course.

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #575 on: 09 Jul 2011, 03:00 »

the pounding hammer of Glorious Marten and his Righteousness

I think your reaction's a bit extreme, though.  Marten is written as an amiable, bumbling everyman, who does little which is notably right or wrong; and rather a lot of people can identify with that.  Yes, he mouthed off at Faye, but Faye punched him out and forgave him; Steve once mouthed off similarly at Marten (way back) and Marten walked out, but turned and went straight back in and forgave him.  Seems reasonably balanced to me.  And remember Jeph's own remark that he doesn't see any of the arguments as being entirely one-sided.

And "St Jeph"?  Well, no - but he is  the reason that this forum exists at all - and we should respect that, though without it becoming worship.

Finally, a remark about the "other parts" of the forum.  There was a crowd of people (I've referred to them as "the old guard" in the past) who came to this forum when it was first set up because of some of them having met Jeph; however, they came, not just for the comic discussion, but more to use it as a replacement for a previous forum they had been on together.  A few weeks ago, that group started to migrate to a new forum that one of them has set up; so I think that any antagonism there was could start to fade away.
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 12:09 by pwhodges »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #576 on: 09 Jul 2011, 03:21 »

I'm glad Dora and Marten are talking. I wonder if this means he won't be returning to tSB.
I really need to know if the whole world is weird or if it's just me: WHAT THE FUCK COULD HAPPEN RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD MAGICALLY MAKE MARTEN UNABLE TO VISIT THE SECRET BAKERY?

Others have answered this already with my thoughts and more but figured I'd say the thought I had while posting. Marten started going to tSB because he couldn't go to CoD right after the break-up. He's already gone to CoD once but Dora wasn't there. Now Dora and him are talking and she's straight asked him to come by. He'll probably go between the two for a while till the awkwardness totally fades. Plus CoD has tSB's baked goods too so he won't need to go there just for those.

I'd still like to see tSB  and its crew. Just wonder how likely it is or if there'll be a big drop in the crew's appearances. I still want to find out ScarNeck's name!

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #577 on: 09 Jul 2011, 03:38 »

Quote
But he is a dude who told his best friend, while she was trying to care for him, that she owed him sex for helping her, and essentially called her a slut. To her face. He is fucking lucky she values their friendship as much as she does, because she would have been well within her rights to end said friendship right the fuck then. What he did was misogynistic, victimizing horseshit. It showed that on some level, there is a scumbag in Marten. Yes, he was talking with a poisoned brain: I remember vividly trying to tell people that and getting back  choruses of "but but but in vino veritas." However, his poisoned brain does not wholly excuse what he said, and that Faye forgave him says a lot about how good a person Faye really is.

I completely forgot about that event until you brought it up. You're overestimating the weight of Marten's comment, and undermining his friendship with Faye. They've been through stuff together and trust each other, like most good friends do. You don't toss all of that out of the window for one stupid comment made while intoxicated. That's just saying your ego is more important than the friendship, which is pretty fucked up in and of itself, don't you think?

Regardless, even if Faye had opted for the more bloodthristy approach and left him to wallow in his suffering, they still live in the same apartment, and there's no way Hannelore would stand idly by and watch her circle of friends go to hell over something like that. Marten would eventually have apologized for what he did (if Faye would even bring herself to remind him; keep in mind she did knock him out and he had little recollection of the nights events when he came to), Faye would forgive him because she is a good friend to him, as he is to her, and we would all go on with our lives. Basically the same as what's happening now.
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 04:09 by SJCrew »
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dragontart

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #578 on: 09 Jul 2011, 04:04 »

Quote
You don't toss all of that out of the window for one stupid comment made while intoxicated. That's just saying your ego is more important than the friendship, which is pretty fucked up in and of itself.

That depends on what you think alcohol does to Marten. Does he, for once, show what he really thinks because it's making him more daring (in that case his friendship to Faye didn't mean much to begin with, and I think that's not likely), or does he basically tell bullshit because his judgment is kind of limited in that condition.
But there was a discussion about that and it wasn't pretty, if I remember correctly.
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SJCrew

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #579 on: 09 Jul 2011, 04:24 »

Do keep in mind that outside of that incident, Marten and Faye have maintained a perfectly normal and healthy friendship up until now. I mean, heck, this was the way it was even when Marten wanted to date her (and if you read his response in comic 501, it wasn't exactly a 'head-over-heels' sort of attraction). After the fact, Jeph even devoted an entire comic of self-musing to debunking the theory that Marten is on an indefinite hold for Faye. We're beyond the point of baseless speculation and ulterior motives; this is as good as it's going to get.
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #580 on: 09 Jul 2011, 04:26 »

Quote
You don't toss all of that out of the window for one stupid comment made while intoxicated. That's just saying your ego is more important than the friendship, which is pretty fucked up in and of itself.

That depends on what you think alcohol does to Marten. Does he, for once, show what he really thinks because it's making him more daring (in that case his friendship to Faye didn't mean much to begin with, and I think that's not likely), or does he basically tell bullshit because his judgment is kind of limited in that condition.
But there was a discussion about that and it wasn't pretty, if I remember correctly.
Intoxinated is a nice to say he was drunk like a sailor.  A bottle of whiskey (it looked like that, that means ~35%) - the drink, that hanners took put into a whimpey 70kilo body.... , in ~5hours. Erm that leads to an blood alcohol of 2,6 o/oo. Cool thats short of a visit to the emergency room. lacheim! I'm stunned that he was able to form a complete sentence without throwing up ^^.
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 04:33 by michael28 »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #581 on: 09 Jul 2011, 04:29 »

Quote
You don't toss all of that out of the window for one stupid comment made while intoxicated. That's just saying your ego is more important than the friendship, which is pretty fucked up in and of itself.

That depends on what you think alcohol does to Marten. Does he, for once, show what he really thinks because it's making him more daring (in that case his friendship to Faye didn't mean much to begin with, and I think that's not likely), or does he basically tell bullshit because his judgment is kind of limited in that condition.
But there was a discussion about that and it wasn't pretty, if I remember correctly.

Depends on how much you believe the idea of in vino veritas. To me, the concept is mostly bullshit. You might care less about what you say so some truthful stuff slips out, but plenty of times you just get a lot of raw anger, sadness or other things boiling out for relatively little provocation.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #582 on: 09 Jul 2011, 04:50 »

Quote
You don't toss all of that out of the window for one stupid comment made while intoxicated. That's just saying your ego is more important than the friendship, which is pretty fucked up in and of itself.

That depends on what you think alcohol does to Marten. Does he, for once, show what he really thinks because it's making him more daring (in that case his friendship to Faye didn't mean much to begin with, and I think that's not likely), or does he basically tell bullshit because his judgment is kind of limited in that condition.
But there was a discussion about that and it wasn't pretty, if I remember correctly.

Depends on how much you believe the idea of in vino veritas. To me, the concept is mostly bullshit. You might care less about what you say so some truthful stuff slips out, but plenty of times you just get a lot of raw anger, sadness or other things boiling out for relatively little provocation.

Well said - "Boring Personal Anecdote time"- at a friend's birthday, we were all sitting around a bonfire, drinking and catching up,and our quasi-genius friend steered us into debating what Zero meant to each of us. When they woke up the next morning (I stayed up to watch the dawn) we all agreed Zero just isn't that interesting without corrupted thought-patterns. Or a master's degree.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #583 on: 09 Jul 2011, 06:01 »

Hodgson's Law/Bellisario's Maxim, people.

It's just a webcomic.
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 06:08 by jwhouk »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #584 on: 09 Jul 2011, 06:04 »

I'll just limit myself to saying that it's possible to end up saying some pretty regrettable things when your mind is poisoned by bitterness and pain. Things that are out of character. Things that you don't truly believe. Friends will recognise those moments for what they are.

Oh, and that goes for Marten too.  :-D
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #585 on: 09 Jul 2011, 06:14 »

It's just a webcomic.
I'm pretty sure I say this in my head at least once every time I read this thread. Still, I typically enjoy the discussion, so I contribute.

Now, to maim a mortified mustang (I think he died of alliteration):

When people bring up Marten's inappropriate behavior toward Faye, they tend to cite the one comic, and rip it out of context. The dude was in a bad place. That's all I'll say for now, but yeah, just take it in context.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #586 on: 09 Jul 2011, 06:45 »

(collar-tug).. I better just come back on Monday, I think.

Whoa, wait for me, buddy. I´m with you.

If you´re headed to the next bar that is.
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #587 on: 09 Jul 2011, 06:46 »

Hodgson's Law/Bellisario's Maxim, people.

It's just a webcomic.
yeah, right.
Wait Bellisario did Quantum Leap? Another series on my all-time-favorite list made by him, damn (number 4).

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #588 on: 09 Jul 2011, 06:57 »


When people bring up Marten's inappropriate behavior toward Faye, they tend to cite the one comic, and rip it out of context. The dude was in a bad place. That's all I'll say for now, but yeah, just take it in context.


I'd be happy to continue that thought.
I'm perfectly aware that Marten's not a saint. Just as an example, he did do that drunken rambling, and that was pretty bad. But it was one time, and he was incredibly drunk, and Faye was more than likely just the recipient of a lot of the bitterness he was feeling at the time. PLUS, and I think this is quite important, while Faye letting it slide did save him some further shame (which he probably didn't need anyway), it also robbed him of the ability to defend himself. To this day he doesn't even know he did anything bad, so he can't even say "Oh my God, I'm so sorry, I don't know what thinking". And I think that the people who loathe Marten's actions on that day would like something of that sort. But Marten can't give it.

In fact, now that you mention it wrwight, I can't think of a single argument I've ever read against Marten's character which hasn't been centred around that one episode. And one isolated episode of drunken ranting shouldn't immediately turn someone from a sympathetic character into a completely unsympathetic one.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #589 on: 09 Jul 2011, 08:00 »

Being relatively new to the forums the only comment I'll make about the community is that it is...divided, sometimes rather pointedly. And this is based only on what little I've gleaned from just this week of panels. And like all forums, the comments of some people reveal things about their personality and life experience that create , solely through conjecture, profiles of those individuals. Basically, we get a feel for them and make assumptions that allow us to predict how they are likely to respond to events.

That being said, (really rather obvious observation) while I do recognize that Marten is something of the everyman, I also recognize that the Everyman is equally noble as his is flawed. The Marten/Faye incident is pivotal because it showed Marten doing something we have never seen him do. It revealed the darker part of his "soul" (for lack of a better word) and demonstrated that we still don't know everything about Marten.
As a observation I would ask if there are any witnesses around who remember how Marten reacted when he went though his first serious break-up. I'm of course talking about the relationship that brought him to the east-coast. Also, I've noticed that besides Steve and Marten, no other characters seem to go through a period of darkness where they say or do things that others will find highly offensive.
Since it has only been two guys, it could be said that Jeph is simply reaffirming a general belief that women handle their emotions better than men, since neither Faye or Dora seemed to have fell into similar pits of darkness. Of course this does not excuse Marten. I feel he should be faced with one of his darker moments if for no other reason than to be aware of it. It is my hope that Pint-size was around and actively recording said behavior so that a some point in the future Marten can be made aware and grow just a little more.
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Emperor Norton

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #590 on: 09 Jul 2011, 08:16 »

To clarify where my long-winded rant cometh from, it is both from reading back Tiogyr's posts to analyze his viewpoint, which is not really all that objectionable (to me), the tide of increasingly vituperative responses to the fellow for saying pretty reasonable shit, and the pounding hammer of Glorious Marten and his Righteousness that has kept me away from the forum for several weeks for my own safety.

What does, disagreeing with Tiogyr (who's viewpoint from what I can tell is that Exes should NEVER be friends, and that if your social circle is like that you are obviously from bumfuck nowhere, or are a hermit. Oh, also that if I haven't had a string of relationships to the point that I've gotten breaking up down to an art, there is something wrong with me) have to do with the "cult of Marten" that you are talking about.

That being said, he is a fairly harmless guy. The thing is, people don't tend to go out of their way to hate people whose problems (like Marten's passivity (which, is, not quite as extreme as the forums make it out to be at times, but does exist)) don't actively hurt anyone other than themselves (and even then, its generally hurting Marten over the long term, which is much harder to judge). The thing he said while drunk, is the only thing I can think of where he was DIRECTLY harmful towards anyone else without at least some provocation that makes it not OK but, understandable (such as some of his reactions to Dora). And honestly, can any of us say we've NEVER done something EVEN WHEN SOBER, that we shouldn't have done/said, that hurt someone else?

Actually there is no character in the comic I find awful or root against. Every single time I see discussions on the forum I just, am confused and wonder if people are as judgmental of their friends as they are of webcomic characters. I know if I judged every friend I had based on the worst actions they've ever taken, I wouldn't have any friends. No one is a saint. We all make mistakes. The fact that the characters make mistakes make them more HUMAN to me, not despicable.
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Method of Madness

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #591 on: 09 Jul 2011, 09:53 »

Maybe it's because I generally stick to the WCDT, but I just don't see the community being divided.  I've only been here for a few months, but I felt that the forum took me in right away, responding to my posts, voting in my polls and generally treating me like I was already a regular.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #592 on: 09 Jul 2011, 10:20 »

True dat
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #593 on: 09 Jul 2011, 10:31 »

The townie remark can't really be held against her, since Marten realizes she's right, that it's absurd that he's avoiding CoD.  She may not have intended to, but she probably helped Marten a lot with that.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #594 on: 09 Jul 2011, 11:06 »

I've ended the poll, as it's pointless now.  Given that I omitted any option for "awkward but calm conversation", the poll pretty much got it right (one could picture a chaste hug on or before Monday, perhaps).  I won't copy the figures here as they're visible at the top of the page.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #595 on: 09 Jul 2011, 11:06 »

Hodgson's Law/Bellisario's Maxim, people.

It's just a webcomic.

Even I find it amusing that, with all the arguing going on, this is the point upon which I choose to take a stand, but… still… here’s another stupidly long post, but one that I think is important.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere my M.A. in English. Well, this is my research area. I study the cognitive origins and bases of narrative (especially in the area of what we tend to call mythic texts, including modern superhero stories… but that’s not really relevant here).

The reason I’m bringing this up is that there’s nothing more powerful than narrative in terms of human psychology. One of the reasons we create stories is that they are a way of projecting our inner psychological conflicts out into the world, where we can then interact with them and, hopefully, resolve the originating conflicts. These projections—narratives—can also help facilitate this process in others, as reading a story allows for the same projection as creation, although not perfectly, as certain details which are idiosyncratic to the author will not have the same meaning (if any) for the audience.

(Eight hundred paragraphs edited out because, dammit, although my research fascinates me, the details don’t help my immediate point).

The key thing here is the process of projection. As we read, we project ourselves onto the narrative as a whole, and parts of ourselves onto the characters. We invest ourselves in the text, connecting with it, the author, and each other in doing so. The problem is that some of those connections are a little shaky, since each individual is projecting a different part of him-or-herself onto the same images. Thus, one person’s Dora is a less-abstract webcomic-incarnation of that bitch that tore out his heart, while another’s Dora is a more-abstract depiction of, for instance, the need to accept and love oneself in order to develop as an individual (do you really think it’s a coincidence that Dora and Marten have grown to resemble each other physically?).

Still, although we’re all interacting with the text in different ways, what’s important is that all of those ways are incredibly intimate and personal, and that this is, actually, an essential cognitive process. When we dismiss texts as “only a movie” or “only a webcomic,” we’re choosing to ignore the power that these texts have in our hearts, minds, and lives.

When we trivialize our involvement with the text, we’re deliberately ignoring the power it has over us, and that’s dangerous. Suddenly, somebody’s popped the hood on our brains (without necessarily meaning to) and is messing around in there (also without meaning to), and is, if we’ve given the text enough power, changing the way we think (without our being aware of it). So, while some texts are light, easily-digested fluff that never really resonates with us, it’s important that, when we do get worked up, we (first take a step back and remember that not everyone is sharing our idiosyncratic experience and then) examine why we’re so invested in the text, rather than just dismissing it.

For the record, yes, in retrospect, I know I should have tried to get “tl;dr” as my screen name.
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #596 on: 09 Jul 2011, 11:47 »

That brings back, memories from a Pratchett novel out of the "Science of discworld" series. There was mentioned pan narrans, the story telling ape (i think it was the 2nd one).
I'm not sure if it wasn't targeted at a younger audience but it was a nice picture, that storys are one if not the main motivator in human development. Be it social or in terms of intellectual progress. We grow up with storys, in everydays life, in school.

We like fictional characters, we love their quirks, we hate if they suffer and feel their pain. It's gets a lot more intens (and with a greater audience than in scifci^^) if it's a nearly realistic setting (like qc, apart from antrhopc and creepy guys with robotic hands (well until they get developed)).

And yes, we curse the authors if our beloved characters with whom we struggled get killed or kicked in the groin (mental or physical). That's only slightly less annoing than a cliffhanger after a novel with 600p.
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 11:49 by michael28 »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #597 on: 09 Jul 2011, 11:55 »

Man, all this shouting over relationships and breakups makes me glad to be a celibate hero.
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #598 on: 09 Jul 2011, 12:11 »

Man, all this shouting over relationships and breakups makes me glad to be a celibate hero.
ah you're in a committed relationship that long, what's your golf handicap?  :-D
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Skaltura

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #599 on: 09 Jul 2011, 12:55 »

Man, all this shouting over relationships and breakups makes me glad to be a celibate hero.
ah you're in a committed relationship that long, what's your golf handicap?  :-D

Huh? No, by that I mean no relationships, as in never having been in one, and celibate, as in no sex, past, present and probably future. (For the record, I'm 26 and have never played golf, although I must admit to having watched it on telly a few times, didn't do much for me.)
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