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Simple question: Old Momo or New?

Old Momo-tan. Her old chassis is adorable!
- 14 (23%)
New chassis! She could become a regular cast member!
- 26 (42.6%)
She needs some more upgrades.
- 1 (1.6%)
New chassis - if only to tick off Pintsize
- 14 (23%)
MOAR TOASTERRRRR!!!
- 2 (3.3%)
Toaster - only because we like waffles.
- 4 (6.6%)

Total Members Voted: 56


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Author Topic: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)  (Read 134057 times)

wrwight

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #400 on: 26 Aug 2011, 21:51 »

I think time is a very fluid concept in this comic, and not to be scrutinized too closely. Also, I don't think we know the release schedule for APC chassis. It could be the newest model was already a couple of years old at that point.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #401 on: 26 Aug 2011, 22:17 »

If it wasn't for Pintsize meeting up with Momo, we never would have run into PT-610x (who tried to convince Pintsize he could attain a "sentience matrix");

If it wasn't for Pintsize attempting to rewire himself, Momo wouldn't have encouraged Marten and Dora to ask her "owner" to help fix him;

If it wasn't for Dora and Marten seeking out Momo's owner, they never would have met Marigold;

If Dora had never gone over to Marigold's apartment, she never would have felt compelled to call Hannelore;

If Hannelore had never come over to clean Mari's apartment, they wouldn't have bonded over Yaoi and Magical Love Gentleman;

...and this strip is much better off that they did.

So - it's all Pintsize's fault.  :-D
« Last Edit: 26 Aug 2011, 22:19 by jwhouk »
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #402 on: 26 Aug 2011, 22:24 »


Scientific advance cannot change the basis of mathematical and computational theory.

Besides, mathematical and computational theory is just that, theory.  There are huge possible advances such as P=NP that have not been proven or disproven, and then there are accepted laws that are possibly changing, such as the speed of light not being a constant.  Nothing is impossible, especially in the QC world.


Hmm. The tasks that have been proven to be algorithmically undecidable remain so forever irrespective of an eventual answer to the P=NP question. Mathematics is different from physics in this sense that the proven facts never change. And computational theory is part of mathematics.  I dare not say to what extent the proofs depend on the concept of the Turing machine as a model for computation, but TM is sufficiently wide a concept to encompass all the imaginable computers. Quantum (or other unconventional) computing may offer some hope for some specific tasks.

But I agree with you in that all of the above is quite irrelevant to the question of whether an AI can be programmed to express emotion or not. We are certainly capable of believing that an AI can express emotion, which is sufficient for many a purpose. And, of course, Jeph is free to use artistic license in order to entertain us and/or himself.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #403 on: 26 Aug 2011, 22:33 »

If I recall the initial incident was a freak accident that they studied and learned to reproduce. I'm not a mathematician, but it seems almost implicit in the freak accident premise that it utilizes some previously undiscovered principle that would make it possible, or reveals a flaw in a principle previously held to be true. For example maybe the addition of a previously undiscovered variable to the formula you're listing, or the discovery that the formula was ill equipped to deal with a situation never before encountered or conceived.

I know next to nothing about math, but does any of that make sense?
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #404 on: 26 Aug 2011, 23:36 »

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Boradis

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #405 on: 26 Aug 2011, 23:42 »

1. They've been waiting for that major advancement for years. Right along side Mr. Fusion and Transflux Capacitors.

Those are pure SF -- goofy SF at that. A space elevator or orbital tether system is theoretically possible. We know what would be needed but lack a strong enough material. Carbon and boron nitride nanotubes are real, a decent bet to achieve the needed tensile strength (see the third graph of preceding link), and development of them is proceeding rapidly

As for the issue of waiting years for a major advancement or breakthrough all I can say is "Welcome to the universe." Science moves in small steps and we'll all be long dead before many of the things we would like to see get discovered. I'm just grateful I'm alive at the dawn of the information age and don't have to shit in a chamber pot.

2. You want someone to start heading to the moon like it's no one's business? Have them discover one of two things up there: Gold or Oil.
How about a planet made of diamond?

There are plenty of natural resources closer to home too. But chemical rockets are still not cost effective or reliable enough to go get them.
« Last Edit: 26 Aug 2011, 23:52 by Boradis »
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Skewbrow

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #406 on: 27 Aug 2011, 00:20 »

Well, I don't know how to put it in a useful and clear way, but I guess I should try anyway. Mathematical theorems are absolute certainties. But they come together with a scope, and do not really claim anything, if we are studying objects outside that scope.

Einstein: "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

[Edit]
I believe Einstein was referring to the statistical nature of quantum mechanics when he said the above, but I may be wrong. Einstein had philosophical problems with QM ("God doesn't play dice!"), and it was a bit dangerous of me to present this quote out of context, because he most certainly didn't want to undermine the effectiveness and accuracy of the mathematical theories he was using himself. [/Edit]

So a result derived with infallible mathematical rules is extremely useful even if its validity is guaranteed only within a certain scope (in the present discussion in a model of computations, in physics in a model of how a part of the universe works). If you want to go around it, you need to be familiar with the scope in order to invent something outside that (fully knowing that the conclusion of the said result may still be valid in many an extended scope leaving you still constrained in the same way). IOW: Don't hold your breath, if you are basing your hopes on the existence of something that might be able to circumvent known facts. I will balance Einstein's statement with another quote

Randall Munroe: "(Science) It works, bitches!"

« Last Edit: 27 Aug 2011, 03:00 by Skewbrow »
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #407 on: 27 Aug 2011, 00:27 »

If this is a religious belief of yours I'll back off.

We aren't magical. If it can be done with wetware it can be done with hardware/software.

No, not religious.  Just forty-five years in programming and other aspects of computing (mostly in a medical environment), plus a detailed awareness of genetics and the like, makes me feel that the mismatch between our capabilities and what's required is still almost inconceivably wide.  Sure, we can imitate some behaviours tolerably well, and that may have huge practical usefulness, and even change our world; but to make a device that is in some way equivalent to a living being requires hugely more.  Of course, I'm not just talking of the AI aspects here - because the AI can't be complete without all the surrounding means of gaining experience and operating on the world.  Think about energy storage and conversion, and the capability to scavenge for energy sources; the range of sensors for both internal and external monitoring; the information storage, and search and association mechanisms; the mobility; the growth and self-repair mechanisms; the self-reproducing capabilities. We are seriously barely at the starting line with most of those, and it's not just a matter of a few breakthroughs, I think.  Not until all that is in place will the AI have the possibility to approach complete emulation of humanity.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #408 on: 27 Aug 2011, 01:37 »

OIC: "dubs" as in "double-u"
Yep.  Is it ok if I call you that?  It amuses me.

Whatever.  In 65 years, it's the closest anyone's come to making a nickname out of my name.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #409 on: 27 Aug 2011, 04:47 »

Mr. Hodges: It's only taken about 16-17 years for me to suddenly be referred to as JW by relative strangers - thanks to my original ISP.

The real basis of most Sci-Fi is the concept that one, seemingly overwhelming and impossible to overcome, problem has been figured out. Time travel, AI robotics, faster-than-light travel, genetics - it's usually one little thing that makes the difference.

In the BTTF universe, it was the discovery of the Transflux capacitor. In Star Trek, it was the discovery of trilithium and the concept of warp drive. In the QC universe, someone apparently found a way to get past the sentience barrier - a "someone" whom I suspect has the last name of Ellicott-Chatham.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #410 on: 27 Aug 2011, 04:58 »

If this is a religious belief of yours I'll back off.

We aren't magical. If it can be done with wetware it can be done with hardware/software.

No, not religious.  Just forty-five years in programming and other aspects of computing (mostly in a medical environment), plus a detailed awareness of genetics and the like,

I'm not going to challenge your claim of being a 55-or-older computer programmer and genetics expert, but ... you know how that sounds, right? I don't see how your expertise in genetics grants you deeper insight into human intelligence than the average person, but I'll take your word for it.

makes me feel that the mismatch between our capabilities and what's required is still almost inconceivably wide.

I didn't say it was right around the corner, and of course neither are you. But when I said "we're not magical" I was actually responding to this:

It may be (and I conjecture, because I don't know, any more than you do) that the task of emulating a human would bring us up against the limits of computability in such a way as would explain the uncertainty in the results in the case of humans themselves - thus possibly providing a basis for free will.
To me the above sounds vague and superstitious, like a "meddling in God's domain" hand-wave rather than an assessment of when computers will be up to it.

Edit: And I say "when" rather than "if" with confidence because I'm merely a wadded-up ball of meat the size of a small ham which has been running a human algorithm called "Robert M." for about 44.5 years now. I'm a physical thing in the physical world running a physical program made of weird-looking cells, electrons and chemical squirts. Evolution is a lot of things, but it's neither an efficiency expert nor an intelligent designer.
« Last Edit: 27 Aug 2011, 05:25 by Boradis »
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #411 on: 27 Aug 2011, 06:15 »

The Internet is a case against intelligent design, but I'm more disposed to it being attributable to the human condition.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #412 on: 27 Aug 2011, 07:41 »

The real basis of most Sci-Fi is the concept that one, seemingly overwhelming and impossible to overcome, problem has been figured out. Time travel, AI robotics, faster-than-light travel, genetics - it's usually one little thing that makes the difference.

A friend of mine in gradd school was in Nuclear Engineering.  He was constantly upset that the only work that recieved grants was for power generation and weapons, when all he wanted to work on was a propulsion device. 


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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #413 on: 27 Aug 2011, 08:43 »

I'm not going to challenge your claim of being a 55-or-older computer programmer and genetics expert, but ... you know how that sounds, right?

Not really; eugenics had become unfashionable well before I was born.  All I'm saying is that I have seen many so-called breakthroughs come and go.

Quote
To me the above sounds vague and superstitious, like a "meddling in God's domain" hand-wave

Quite the opposite - I see the possibility that we might come up against the limits of strict computability within a finite physical space in trying to solve this problem, and a resort to technologies that involve probability and uncertainty then gives scope for variable answers without recourse to such flummery.

Quote
Evolution is a lot of things, but it's neither an efficiency expert nor an intelligent designer.

It's actually rather good at producing the "good enough" result, though, and that's why some effort has been put into trying to emulate some aspects of it in self-improving software.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #414 on: 27 Aug 2011, 11:06 »

Evolution is a lot of things, but it's neither an efficiency expert nor an intelligent designer.

It's actually rather good at producing the "good enough" result, though, and that's why some effort has been put into trying to emulate some aspects of it in self-improving software.

Whenever studying biological systems, I'm always amazed at how efficient evolution has made them.  Nothing is wasted, and little is lost with the exception of some energy, which is a contribution to entropy anyway. 

As for the intelligence of the design, I find it better than "good enough".  In our own instance, for example, the kidney (which can be damaged by a blow to the back) has a built-in redundancy - we've got two, and can live fine with only one.  Most of the liver can be damaged (or even removed), and it still functions nearly perfectly.  More valuable systems are carefully protected - heart in the ribcage, brain in the skull, spinal cord in the .. spine.  It's not perfect (bleeding out from a small arterial cut, for example), but if it's not intelligent, at least it's damned clever. 

Oh, and how many systems store unused energy for later?  I've got about 30 - 40 pounds of it myself, conveniently located around my middle...   :laugh:
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #415 on: 27 Aug 2011, 13:14 »

If I understood pwhodges right, genetics comes into it because he was talking about the prospects for artificial life as opposed to artificial intelligence. There is a point of view which holds that you have to have an unintelligent base for an intelligence to work from, and that it is senses rather than logic that are the basis for cognition. This is diametrically opposed to the belief in AI research that AI is an easier problem than artificial life. Nobody can prove either one at our current state of knowledge.

Then there's the matter of our choice about what we will call "alive". If I understand pwhodges right, he would not call Charlotte a faithful emulation of a living being, while Charlotte's opinion is a matter of record. For my part I would say "It's life, Jim, but not as we know it".

Then there's a distinction to be made about the limits of algorithmic processing. We can be absolutely confident about some limits of algorithms, but solving the halting problem is not a precondition for intelligence. We have no idea whether Turing equivalence is adequate for matching human capabilities. The Church Hypothesis posits that it is adequte, but computability theory does not help us decide whether it's true.

EDIT: Additional AnthroPC discussion
« Last Edit: 27 Aug 2011, 13:30 by Is it cold in here? »
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #416 on: 27 Aug 2011, 13:51 »

If the ability to make some decisions is all that's required for AI, we're not so far off; if the ability to function as recognisable robots in society is the aim, then the QC robots appear to have reached it; but if you want the decisions to be backed up by the whole depth of human experience, then I think we're hardly started. 

Can you picture your robot sales assistant going to the park for a lunch break, visiting the art gallery after work, climbing a tree at the weekend, spending six months doing VSO in Africa?  All things which richen the human experience, and feed into the ability to make decisions in matters that are not rather trivial.  Or if not those activities, some other mind (AI) broadening activity with equivalent effect.  Maybe R Daneel Olivaw was up to these things, but I don't imagine Charlotte is.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #417 on: 27 Aug 2011, 13:57 »

Whoa, I haven't done any of that either. Be right back. I have some business to attend to.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #418 on: 27 Aug 2011, 13:57 »


A friend of mine in gradd school was in Nuclear Engineering.  He was constantly upset that the only work that recieved grants was for power generation and weapons, when all he wanted to work on was a propulsion device. 

But what kind of nuclear-powered propulsion device can be built that wouldn't irradiate the launch site and cause massive fallout? Reactors work great on sea-going vessels where they generate electricity to spin the propeller, but that won't move you through a vacuum.

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #419 on: 27 Aug 2011, 14:37 »

Is it cold in here? gave a nice summary IMHO. I apologize for any possible confusion created by pointing at provably undecidable questions (such as the halting problem). That is my knee-jerk reaction to any claim/expectation that computers/AI will soon be solve any problem.

Re: Nuclear propulsion. Any idea what the mechanism would be? If a nuclear reaction could eject used fuel (or ballast) at relativistic speeds that would make a fine rocket, but is that at all feasible? @Boradis: I think that most if not all commercial nuclear reactors generate electricity by first turning water into steam that then turns turbines. I may be wrong about this as I only read about this somewhere last spring during the Fukushima incident. I don't know how the reactors at nuclear powered submarines do it.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #420 on: 27 Aug 2011, 14:55 »

[...]
@Boradis: I think that most if not all commercial nuclear reactors generate electricity by first turning water into steam that then turns turbines. I may be wrong about this as I only read about this somewhere last spring during the Fukushima incident. I don't know how the reactors at nuclear powered submarines do it.

It's all of them (including ships and subs).  All nuclear reactors are are pretty expensive kettles. ;-)
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #421 on: 27 Aug 2011, 15:01 »

Not really; eugenics had become unfashionable well before I was born.  All I'm saying is that I have seen many so-called breakthroughs come and go.

As have I. But what I meant was that the act of claiming seniority and credentials mid-discussion in a medium that does not allow for verification tends to sound convenient at best and like BS at worst. I too have professional experience that qualifies me to discuss these topics -- but since I'm not going to go into where I've worked why should you believe me?

But hey, it's always nice to encounter a fellow middle-aged person who's Internet savvy and likes comics.

Quite the opposite - I see the possibility that we might come up against the limits of strict computability within a finite physical space in trying to solve this problem, and a resort to technologies that involve probability and uncertainty then gives scope for variable answers without recourse to such flummery.

When you say things like "finite physical space" you're stepping into the realm of pure flummery. My brain is confined to a finite physical space yet it has no trouble making message board posts. Not surprisingly I side with those who think ascribing consciousness to a quantum layer of computing has yet to be demonstrated, and wouldn't solve anything anyhow.


It's actually rather good at producing the "good enough" result, though, and that's why some effort has been put into trying to emulate some aspects of it in self-improving software.

"Good enough" is another way of saying "sloppy as all hell." This little wad of meat in my skull thinks, therefore it is. But whatever processes gets it there are guaranteed to be so roundabout, inefficient and retarded that, when understood, emulation will be a lot simpler than it currently looks.


Whenever studying biological systems, I'm always amazed at how efficient evolution has made them.
Evolution just plain sucks. I know this is his rant about intelligent design, but it also makes a good case for how incredibly inefficient, sloppy and haphazard evolution is. Not that it isn't amazing and all that, but anything that seems efficient only looks that way if you overlook the fact that it took about four billion years to arrive at that configuration. A good point WRT us comes up at the four minute mark in the above video where he points out we eat, breath and drink through the same hole, thereby guaranteeing a percentage of us will choke to death yearly. That's not efficient.

[...]
@Boradis: I think that most if not all commercial nuclear reactors generate electricity by first turning water into steam that then turns turbines. I may be wrong about this as I only read about this somewhere last spring during the Fukushima incident. I don't know how the reactors at nuclear powered submarines do it.

It's all of them (including ships and subs).  All nuclear reactors are are pretty expensive kettles. ;-)

That's exactly my point. You can't turn that into a rocket.
« Last Edit: 27 Aug 2011, 15:22 by Boradis »
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #422 on: 27 Aug 2011, 15:38 »

But what I meant was that the act of claiming seniority and credentials mid-discussion in a medium that does not allow for verification tends to sound convenient at best and like BS at worst.

I make no claim to "seniority" - I merely gave an explanation of why I think as I do.

Quote
I too have professional experience that qualifies me to discuss these topics -- but since I'm not going to go into where I've worked why should you believe me?

Because I have no reason not to.

"Good enough" is another way of saying "sloppy as all hell." This little wad of meat in my skull thinks, therefore it is. But whatever processes gets it there are guaranteed to be so roundabout, inefficient and retarded that, when understood, emulation will be a lot simpler than it currently looks.

Good enough means just that - it may be sloppy, or it may in fact not be.  Nothing in that "guarantees" that the brain is, as you suggest, a highly inefficient device; quite simply, we won't know either way about that until we understand it, which is a long, long way off.
« Last Edit: 27 Aug 2011, 15:45 by pwhodges »
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #423 on: 27 Aug 2011, 16:04 »

I get so fed up with this old chestnut.  The only difference between a binary file and a text file is how easily a human can read it at a superficial level.
Heh... Yes, and also edit it with simple, stable tools. But of course you are right, it's good or bad implementation that makes the difference.

I find speciesism in operating systems almost as annoying as you find racism in humans...
(I'm not saying that it is as harmful, but the underlying "logic" is pretty much the same, actually.)
Hmm... A response that, not unnaturally :wink:, gave me serious food for thought. I guess you're right, if you assign the same moral value to inanimate objects as human beings. Does preferring Holden cars over Ford have the same logic as regarding Europeans as superior to Asians? Is there an issue of "exterior viewpoint", since people are not cars? Of course OSism would definitely become an issue on that level, if one ascribed "sentients' rights" to beings like Momo.



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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #424 on: 27 Aug 2011, 16:26 »

My point was not so much concerned with any moral aspect of the choice between operating systems as with the use of trivial, irrelevant or false information - or even simply unsubstantiated belief - to make that choice.

Oh, and I have come across unstable text editors too!
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #425 on: 27 Aug 2011, 16:40 »

I was once accused of being an unstable text editor.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #426 on: 27 Aug 2011, 17:15 »

Hannelore chided Winslow for racism when he made disparaging remarks about non-sentient machines.

On the other subject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #427 on: 27 Aug 2011, 18:47 »

Consider that if we ever do manage to perfectly simulate a human mind, the initial result will be a blank-slate sociopath with strong inherent desires that it can only communicate in the simplest terms, mostly by acting out... i.e., any newborn baby.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #428 on: 27 Aug 2011, 19:21 »

I would hope that the AI mind would be fundamentally different from the human mind in some choice ways. After all, if we can perfectly emulate the human mind, then it seems it would at that point be appropriate to improve on the design since we understand this all so well. I imagine that what you speak of would be one of the first problems we'd work our way through in this hypothetical scenario. Aside from the fact that our base desires would have to be retooled to suit this new being and in some cases could probably be removed entirely it would probably be as simple as birthing them with a per-existing knowledge base of sorts. Nothing fancy, but basic language skills, traffic law, the functional purpose of the most common kitchen appliances and items of furniture.

After that it would be a much easier and quicker process as it learned about the rest of the world around it. Social conduct, various bits of how society functions like jobs and currency, etc etc. It would really be beneficial even without the problems that would arise from a stage of infancy in such a being.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #429 on: 27 Aug 2011, 19:42 »

Consider that if we ever do manage to perfectly simulate a human mind, the initial result will be a blank-slate sociopath with strong inherent desires that it can only communicate in the simplest terms, mostly by acting out... i.e., any newborn baby.
Or Pintsize.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #430 on: 27 Aug 2011, 21:55 »

Consider that if we ever do manage to perfectly simulate a human mind, the initial result will be a blank-slate sociopath with strong inherent desires that it can only communicate in the simplest terms, mostly by acting out... i.e., any newborn baby.

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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #431 on: 28 Aug 2011, 07:37 »

First of all, I'm not a whining person. This is just pure curiosity (specially since english is not my mother tongue)

Is Jimbo wrong when he says "automatons" back in 1526?
I know wikipedia is not the best source ever but it says that automatons is acceptable like automata.

PS: I posted it here because a thread about it would be silly.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #432 on: 28 Aug 2011, 07:58 »

Merriam Webster says that both plural forms are ok. The native speakers may overrule.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #433 on: 28 Aug 2011, 08:32 »

Personally, I'd feel inclined to slap anyone who kept saying 'automata'. At the end of the day, though, the 'correct' word is the one that conveys a meaning fluently from one person to another. Which both achieve.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #434 on: 28 Aug 2011, 09:24 »

On the whole I prefer the native plurals to the original (e.g. forums, not fora).  However, I instinctively say automata rather than automatons, and I imagine that even you say data rather than datums.  That's leaving aside words in which some or all of the popular "plural" forms are actually completely wrong - like octopi (octopuses or octopodes) or virii (viruses - virus has no plural in Latin).
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #435 on: 28 Aug 2011, 10:28 »

I think "automata" is more common in technical speech.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #436 on: 28 Aug 2011, 10:30 »

Thanks fellas, I learned something today.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #437 on: 28 Aug 2011, 10:42 »

I would hope that the AI mind would be fundamentally different from the human mind in some choice ways. After all, if we can perfectly emulate the human mind, then it seems it would at that point be appropriate to improve on the design since we understand this all so well.

While that seems reasonable, the fact that pintsize has a sex drive suggests to me that human consciousness was copied somehow without being really understood. What else would explain such vestigial emotions?

I don't think that this is likely IRL, but it go a long way towards explaining the types of emotions that fairly technically-oriented machines have. (Granted, it's probably a plot device, but I'm trying to rationalize, here.)
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #438 on: 28 Aug 2011, 10:54 »

And yet it has been referenced that the AI's have certain generalized behavior patterns that are unique to them. Like their mysterious, unexplainable tendency to take on a human companion instead of taking a route that might offer a greater degree of independence.

If we're going back to the QC-verse here, I do think a mind was created without understanding it, but it's not an exact copy of the human mind either. Simply some new and fascinating mind that people don't yet understand to a greater degree than we understand our own.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #439 on: 28 Aug 2011, 11:04 »


Evolution just plain sucks. I know this is his rant about intelligent design, but it also makes a good case for how incredibly inefficient, sloppy and haphazard evolution is. Not that it isn't amazing and all that, but anything that seems efficient only looks that way if you overlook the fact that it took about four billion years to arrive at that configuration. A good point WRT us comes up at the four minute mark in the above video where he points out we eat, breath and drink through the same hole, thereby guaranteeing a percentage of us will choke to death yearly. That's not efficient.

1. To understand the quality of a process, you have to know it's goal. Evolved systems are remarkably more fault-tolerant and good at dealing with unexpected insults as compared to complex things humans design. There are trade-offs in evolution that are not always immediately apparent.

2. The results of evolution are not as random as many people tried to assert a few decades ago. If you change the location of genes relative to one another in one-celled organismis, they'll evolve back to their original positions. You have genes in microbes that overlap one another. You have large non-coding regions which have been shown to be functional, once calld "junk DNA." (Destroying them causes pathologies in the organism).  You have pseudogenes which have been shown to be capable of transcribing DNA in a functional manner. etc. The more we learn, the less random genomes seem.

3. Reuse of existing components is quite efficient. Would a separate orifice for eating and breathing increase risk of infection or dehydration? What would the costs be? In the ancestral environment, disease was the #1 killer, even if it isn't now. Far more people died from sickness than from choking.

Without knowing costs and benefits, it's hard to weigh the 'intelligence' of a particular design. Humans are particularly prone to choking compared to other animals because of adaptations which allow for speech. But I rather think that those adaptations were 'worth it.'

"Unfortunately, that flexible throat, so useful in talking, makes us susceptible to a form of sleep apnea that results from obstruction of the airway. During sleep, the muscles of the throat relax. In most people, this does not present a problem, but in some, the passage can collapse so that relatively long stretches pass without a breath. This, of course, can be very dangerous, particularly in people who have heart conditions. Snoring is a symptom of the same underlying problem.

Another trade-off of speech is choking. Our mouths lead both to the trachea, through which we breathe, and to the esophagus, so we use the same flexible passage to swallow, breathe, and talk. Those functions can be at odds, for example when a piece of food “goes down the wrong pipe” and gets lodged in the trachea; our fishy ancestors had no such worries. Other mammals, and reptiles too, use the same structures for eating, breathing, and communicating but the back of the mouth does not need to be so vertically spacious and flexible as ours. The basic mammalian structures are arranged so that nonhuman animals can safely swallow while breathing. Tweaking the engineering to enable us to talk has left us peculiarly vulnerable."
http://naturalhistorymag.com/features/04971/fish-out-of-water




It's all of them (including ships and subs).  All nuclear reactors are are pretty expensive kettles. ;-)



It seems a pity that some of the energy from EM radiation couldn't be recovered via the photo-electric effect.
Also, on a totally tangental note if we're really at "peak oil" (no clue if true) then we're also at peak helium. Helium comes from radioactive decay and is, ironically, mined. Hopefully, future reactors and nuclear waste dumps will give a thought to helium recovery.
« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2011, 11:32 by wiserd »
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #440 on: 28 Aug 2011, 12:52 »

Whenever studying biological systems, I'm always amazed at how efficient evolution has made them.
Evolution just plain sucks. I know this is his rant about intelligent design, but it also makes a good case for how incredibly inefficient, sloppy and haphazard evolution is. Not that it isn't amazing and all that, but anything that seems efficient only looks that way if you overlook the fact that it took about four billion years to arrive at that configuration. A good point WRT us comes up at the four minute mark in the above video where he points out we eat, breath and drink through the same hole, thereby guaranteeing a percentage of us will choke to death yearly. That's not efficient.

I like that video!  Not familiar with him, but certainly my knda guy.  However, there's really nothing in that about efficiency.  Somene else already mentioned the choking thing, and in fact fewer orifices is  more efficient - multiple purpose devices are always more efficient than single-purpose items.  While there are a lot of ways that we can fail, and yes, most of the universe is inhospitable to our  form of life, every inch of this ball is  covered with life (even deserts and the ocean floor - what we haven't killed off).  Fact is, evolution has managed to filll damn near every niche of this planet with some form of life, and it all works (well, worked) together, very efficiently.  Sure it took a long time to fill all those niches, it's an undirected process.  No one said to the spoonbill, "You know, you might get more bugs out of the mud if that were a little wider...". 

As for us, we're susceptible to a lot of things.  But our numbers are still growing, despite the chokings, deaths by accident, wars, birth defects, etc.  We are extremely well adapted to what we do. 

Of course, it may be the death of us, but that's the way the system works...

[...]
@Boradis: I think that most if not all commercial nuclear reactors generate electricity by first turning water into steam that then turns turbines. I may be wrong about this as I only read about this somewhere last spring during the Fukushima incident. I don't know how the reactors at nuclear powered submarines do it.

It's all of them (including ships and subs).  All nuclear reactors are are pretty expensive kettles. ;-)

That's exactly my point. You can't turn that into a rocket.

I'm no nuclear engineer.  I have no idea what kind of revolutionary propulsion system he had in mind, and neither do you.  Just because you can't adapt existing reactor systems to spaceflight doesn't mean there isn't some neutron-shedding reaction that will push a rocket through space!  My point was that the economic system dictates the directions of research in this country (and most of the rest of the world), so we don't get revolutionary breakthroughs very often, if ever. 
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #441 on: 28 Aug 2011, 15:38 »

On the whole I prefer the native plurals to the original (e.g. forums, not fora).  However, I instinctively say automata rather than automatons, and I imagine that even you say data rather than datums.
Not to mention media instead of mediums, unless referring to people who claim to speak to the spirits of the dead. Except many (perhaps most) people use "data" and "media" as if they were singular. Plural forms of nouns are so unnecessary in any event. English-speakers are not confused by sheep, deer or salmon, and millions of Chinese and Japanese people do without plural forms entirely.

Edit: Campaign Against Plural Nouns would be CAPN. Say "Yes, CAP'N!"  :-D
« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2011, 15:41 by Akima »
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #442 on: 28 Aug 2011, 16:27 »

If that's what he said, he has a grossly oversimplified view of the difficulties of space travel. It's not that we lost interest it's that orbital velocity is incredibly hard and escape velocity is even harder. Until a breakthrough in propulsion or materials comes along we're going to be stuck on one planet.
I've been thinking about this since you posted it, and I'm not sure that I buy it. I know that climbing out of the gravity well is very difficult, but it hasn't become any more so since Apollo 17 brought crewed spaceflight beyond Earth's orbit to an end. In 1972. Nearly 40 years ago. Using technology developed back in the 1960's. I was thinking about this when the final Space Shuttle mission ended. The Space Shuttle first made an orbital flight more than thirty years ago. The Russian Proton rocket first flew in 1965. I don't doubt that Proton, like the Shuttle, has undergone development since its first flight (the latest model first flew a decade ago), but could we not do better today if we only wanted to? Compare the pace of progress in space-launch technology with that in areas we really do care about, like mobile phones and killing people.

I think there is something in Jeph's idea that we, or at least our rulers, just lost interest. The technical hurdle has not grown any higher, but we're achieving less in leaping it than we did in 1968.  The political motivation for Apollo was primarily international dick-waving, and using space-flight for that just went out of fashion, until arguably my homeland started treading the same path.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #443 on: 28 Aug 2011, 17:03 »

Campaign Against Plural Nouns would be CAPN. Say "Yes, CAP'N!"  :-D

Aye, aye! 
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« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2011, 20:33 by Is it cold in here? »
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #445 on: 28 Aug 2011, 18:27 »

That's leaving aside words in which some or all of the popular "plural" forms are actually completely wrong - like octopi (octopuses or octopodes) or virii (viruses - virus has no plural in Latin).
As for "-us" nouns, it depends on whether or not it's a second declension or a fourth declension noun.  (Most nouns are the first three declensions, fourth and fifth ones are rare).  For second declension, singular plural is -us/-i, for fourth declension, it's -us/-es.  It's not that virus doesn't have a plural, it's that it's a fourth declension noun.  That being said, while English isn't a Romance language, a lot of our words come from Latin.  Unless there's an actual reason (like viruses), it makes sense for -us to turn to -a by default.  Also, there are three genders in Latin (masculine, feminine, neuter), and all neuter plurals end in -a.[/classics major]

tl;dr, Both can be considered right, so no reason to give people shit for using the one they prefer.
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #446 on: 28 Aug 2011, 18:58 »

Nuclear propulsion for the really hardcode
There are proposals for surface-to-orbit nuclear rockets that are less loopy than Orion, but they're well beyond our engineering capabilities (and certainly well beyond my capacity to evaluate properly). Maybe, if Carl-E's friend could have got some funding to work on them...
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #447 on: 28 Aug 2011, 21:02 »

If your computer is sentient, and can be damaged by sketchy web sites, is it domestic violence to expose it to them?
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #448 on: 28 Aug 2011, 21:31 »

Why was she using Momo for that, anyway?  She has the other computer, with a monitor, so she can see the pretty pictures...
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Re: WCDT 22-26 August 2011 (1996-2000)
« Reply #449 on: 28 Aug 2011, 21:49 »

well beyond my capacity to evaluate properly

I'd be stunned if there's anyone in the world who can evaluate them properly. The real killer in high-risk technical projects is finding out, the hard way, answers to the questions you didn't know you should ask. There is a lot of terra incognita in those designs.

Which, maybe, are in use in the QC world? Hannerdad's space station is big enough to spin for 1-g without making everyone sick, and big enough that they use golf carts to get around (based on Hannelore's Formspring). That's a lot of material to lift if all you have are chemical rockets. Maybe there's a space elevator? They do seem to have made more progress than we have on carbon nanotubes.

(Or maybe it's all a joke by a webcomic author, but that hypothesis is no fun).

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