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Yelling Bird and Shelby plug QCV2!

1 (1.9%)

"I ran into the door until it broke!"

18 (33.3%)

Hello, Nice People!

1 (1.9%)

Sam goes to PVPA

0 (0%)

You're a ROBOT?

0 (0%)

Are you super strong? Can you shoot lasers? DO YOU HAVE ROCKET BOOTS?!

4 (7.4%)

An electronic self-defense capability...

0 (0%)

...that can blow the socks off a man at 100 meters! (Let's try it out!)

2 (3.7%)

That girl is a bad influence

5 (9.3%)

You really do sound like her dad.

2 (3.7%)

Can we go looking for snakes tomorrow?

0 (0%)

Hiking up Mount Tom, wanna come along?

0 (0%)

Elliot: "We? You mean you and Sam and... him?"

6 (11.1%)

Awkward Marten activated! "I get leg cramps"

2 (3.7%)

We'll make sure to do plenty of stretching.

0 (0%)

Momo got Marten a date!

3 (5.6%)

Elliot looked like he was gonna kill me!

0 (0%)

Nothing's ever simple for you romantically, is it?  "Like a Rush song: complicated and wanky."

4 (7.4%)

A JOB and a NEW FRIEND going HIKING!

1 (1.9%)

You've got a whole new life.

0 (0%)

You are my best friend! Promise!

0 (0%)

So do you want to... "Not now, I'm busy."

5 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 50

[John_Knee]

Introverts don't seek out a large group of friends and the most introverted of people can make do with literately 1-2 close friends and a smallish group of associates that they know and will talk to but wouldn't in the traditional sense call friends.

That's not entirely true, either. While it does describe some introverts, what really "makes" an introvert or extrovert is where they get their energy from. If you need time to be by yourself and enjoy some alone time after hanging out with people because that's tiring, bingo: introvert. While they are factors, introversion doesn't always have anything to do with social skills or ability to make and enjoy friends. 

Needing time out and some me-time is not limited to introverts. Extroverts also need time out too - the difference is the level of tolerance to spending long periods of time in other people's presence and how long the time out is. And introversion can have a big impact on social skills etc - it depends where the goalposts are. For Marigold, a large part of her socialising is doing raids online. She wears headphones and mike so presumably they do talk to each other, plus she no doubt communications on forums etc. That for Marigold is a perfectly valid form of socialisation, allbeit a form that does nothing for teaching her of the way to socialise in more face to face settings like pubs and clubs (as the more extroverted people would social in). As an introvert, you wouldn't look nor need to have a large harem of friends and instead rely on a smaller handful. Because an introvert only mentally requires a smaller group of close friends, she won't be actively be looking to replace them - hence a lack of experience in making new friends. Plus where an introvert (especially like Marigold) tends to stay at home etc to socialise, she isn't natually going to meet new people unless introduced by Angus etc. Not always, but introversion often plays a key part in a person's social skills - not because of a lack of mentality to do so, but because socialisation with other (new) people is often less important.

I do agree with the fact that Marigold is an introvert. She likes to read by herself, she likes to play video games by herself, she's pretty cool with just chilling in her room on her own. Most of the time. Because that doesn't mean that she doesn't need ANY social interactions, or even doesn't want them. She obviously feels like her social life is lacking. She wants more friends, she just isn't sure how to get them. Which brings us to her real problem.

It's not Marigold's introversion that's getting in the way of things; it's the fact that she's shy and hasn't gotten to the point where she feels comfortable putting herself out there. And when she does, it's only on her own terms, when she wants, right now. Which is understandable, especially given that she is an introvert. But then you see her complaining about how she doesn't have a social life and you want to hit her on the head for passing up on past opportunities. (And sometimes just bein' a stupidhead.)

Mature Marigold would realize that you have to put some work into cultivating relationships and that sometimes going out to the movies tonight even if you don't feel like it will make going out when you DO feel like it that much more possible. And I don't think she's become mature Marigold yet. Hopefully she's getting there.

I'd put it down to this - historically Marigold has only two friends in Momo and Angus and they have acted as her social crutches. If she needs to socialise on a face to face basis then Angus and/or Momo fullfills that. She was happy with this social status quo and probably felt fulfilled. Since Angus has stated dating Faye then for Marigold, one of her 'crutches' has been whipped partially away from her therefore knocking her off balance. Her social life, in her mind, probably wasn't lacking until Faye and co turned up. If I was in her position than I probably would make a little bit of an effort around Angus's friends in order to try and maintain the friendship and social time with Angus. I'd debate the suggestion she wants more friends - I'm not sure she necessarily needs more friends and that expanding her social life is high on her list of mental needs. You say she'll only go out and socialise on her terms, but I recall the initial visit to the pub was because Momo threaterned her rather than a particular desire to go. In terms of the party later when she found out officially about Faye and Angus then my reading was that she was basicallly dragged along thanks to the fact Angus was going.

Your second and third paragraph reads as if in order for Marigold to grow up and be mature she has to basically be more of an extrovert? Maybe I just sufficently an introvert to understand where Marigold is coming from, but you seem to be applying the rules of socialising on the basis of what an extrovert would do.

[Emperor Norton]

@John Knee

The problem is that Marigold has pretty much expressed her dislike of her social situation. You act like she hasn't. I'm an introvert. Heavily, heavily, introverted. I have good social skills, get along with almost everyone I meet, and don't tend to have many problems with the fact I have very few close friends. But that's the thing. I DON'T care that I don't have a ton of close friends, Marigold does seem to dislike her position socially. At the very least she wants to have a more active love life.

The truth is... yes, if she wants to have more friends, if she wants to meet a guy, and have a larger social life, being somewhat more extroverted IS a part of that. You don't meet people sitting at home alone. You also don't strengthen existing friendships that way. The maturing people are talking about is not expecting everything to come to you. She's upset at what she doesn't have but she isn't GOING OUT TO GET IT. She's upset that Momo and her might grow apart, but its still all about when and what SHE wants, I'm too busy now, I'm worried that we will drift apart, but not enough to actually do something about it because it will inconvenience me.

[Elysiana]

I think part of the problem is that Mari seems to want the life of an extrovert without becoming an extrovert. Many introverts are quite happy being introverts, myself included. There are times when I'd like to go hang out with people, and I do, but I'm just as happy sitting at home and reading or playing games or making jewelry. Marigold seems to have this wish that friends will magically appear and beg her to come out with them (at which point she will, of course, turn them down, pointing out that she's shy and introverted).

[Welu]

This comic made me laugh but also hit a nerve because it totally reminded me of my introverted fifteen year old self. Specifically of when I only had two close friends who I introduced to each other but then got annoyed they hung out with each other without me, then would say no to hanging out when invited because I was holding a grudge.

Dammit, Marigold!

[Carl-E]

Why do we do such stupid things?  I've done my share, of course.

I know, Welu, you're chalking it up to the stupidity of youth, but the patterns of behaviour set in youth are notoriously hard to break out from.  You're lucky. 



Marigold, not so much. 

[Spectreofwar]

I suppose I can consider myself lucky in that I was an introvert my entire childhood up until 17 when I joined the workforce full-time. After that, the world of being social was an irresistable force that I could never indulge in enough! I had a REALLy rought time all throughout that childhood with my peers, too, with broken trust, bullying and peer pressure*. None of them are excuse enough to not go out and just DO something.

If she wants a social life badly enough, she needs to just go get it. It really is that simple.

* - before anyone jumps in to compare what I might consider "rough" in those aspects, throughout elementary school I visited the hospital for possible broken bones, countless bruisings, a hockey stick slash to the face and at one point even having a portion of my face torn off from being dragged across asphalt. In highschool it was rough enough that I became suicidal to the point of needing an intervention of sorts.

[Cornan]

And we see once again why Marigold doesn't have any friends except those she's been forced to make.

That comment shows a complete understanding of what it is like to be introverted. Introverts don't seek out a large group of friends and the most introverted of people can make do with literately 1-2 close friends and a smallish group of associates that they know and will talk to but wouldn't in the traditional sense call friends. She (Marigold) doesn't have many friends because she hasn't tried to have a bigger group than Momo and Angus, with Hanners maybe joining that close friend status. Everyone else in her mind will be an extension of Angus and if Faye and Angus split up then there is no reason why she would otherwise seek people like Martin out. She may only continue to 'associate' with the rest of the characters of Coffee of Doom as long as Faye and Angus are together. If they did split up, she may still associate with the rest if Hanners joins her close friend group - in which case everyone else will become an extension of Hanners.

So it looks like this has been fairly well addressed already but I wanted to toss in my .02 bucks:

You don't know me. I have a perfectly clear understanding of what introversion is like because I am an introvert. When I was younger it was enough of an issue that I was seeing a doctor and getting medication to try to help (didn't work. Went off it with doctor's support). I understand EXACTLY what it's like to be an introvert and how the introvert perspective works. What introversion does not justify is being a jackass to the people who you are close to. I dislike Marigold's actions not because she's introverted but because she's repeatedly been a jerk to people who care about her and who she claims to care about. She's an extremely selfish person (so far. people can change and I keep hoping for that arc for her, but so far no dice) and while she complains about her social situation she does nothing to address it even when given multiple opportunities.

In this instance Marigold is being less of an introvert and more someone with a persecution complex. I was actually right with her in this strip up until the last panel. I understand the fear of abandonment and isolation that can come with seeing your friends become more social*. That doesn't excuse her asking Momo for one thing and then rejecting it when it's offered. I know we're supposed to chuckle at the joke but I just felt insulted on Momo's behalf. Mari keeps being given opportunities for the kind of social life she claims to want but doesn't take them and instead tries to make her close friends feel guilty for offering those opportunities to her. That's not cool, it's not ok, and it's not excused by introversion.

In short: Being an introvert doesn't mean you get to be a jerk.


*In fact, I'm dealing with it IRL right now because my best friend for the past 6 years has a new girlfriend and I'm seeing him a LOT less. Am I being a bitch about it? Nope. I go hang out with the both of them when I'm invited and invite them both down to watch MST3K and stuff with me when I'm feeling lonely. Instead of pushing away my one friend I've added another because, guess what, his girlfriend is actually pretty awesome.

Also, the avatar title of "Not Quite a Lurker" is awesome.

[jwhouk]

INFJ here. 'Nuff said.

[Spectreofwar]

INFJ here. 'Nuff said.

Exactly what I was in highschool.

Taken again now, I am currently ESFJ. People can change, if they want to.

[DSL]

Thankfully (I think) my only exposure to Myers-Briggs was an SF novel by Michael Flynn called "The Wreck of the River of Stars." It's set aboard a falling-apart spaceship whose crew comprises one of each of the M-B personality types. How each crew member gets along (or doesn't) with the others contributes to a series of events that is pretty much the definition of what engineering-accident investigators call "cascading failure." Good story, but far from a happy ending.

[Fen]

I have a perfectly clear understanding of what introversion is like because I am an introvert. When I was younger it was enough of an issue that I was seeing a doctor and getting medication to try to help (didn't work. Went off it with doctor's support). I understand EXACTLY what it's like to be an introvert and how the introvert perspective works. [/size]

>.<. Introversion works differently with every person. Though it does not give you the right to be a jerk, it is quite often a side-effect. Which quite a few people can't really control. Just because you got over that impulse(and I congratulate you for that), doesn't mean that all introverts can. 

[Cornan]

I have a perfectly clear understanding of what introversion is like because I am an introvert. When I was younger it was enough of an issue that I was seeing a doctor and getting medication to try to help (didn't work. Went off it with doctor's support). I understand EXACTLY what it's like to be an introvert and how the introvert perspective works. [/size]

>.<. Introversion works differently with every person. Though it does not give you the right to be a jerk, it is quite often a side-effect. Which quite a few people can't really control. Just because you got over that impulse(and I congratulate you for that), doesn't mean that all introverts can. 

Fair enough. My intention wasn't to claim god-like over-knowledge of what all introverts are like on a case by case basis but I do think saying "She can't help it! She's an introvert!" is worth calling bullshit on. I guess what I was mostly trying to express was that being introverted does not automatically make you socially maladjusted and it's a poor excuse to cover up being a jerk to people in general. From what we've seen of Marigold I don't think her particular brand of introversion leads her to be innately socially inept since once she's in social situations she seems to do fine most of the time. This means that when we do see her being a less than stellar human being I'm extremely hesitant to just let it be written off because she's introverted.

[rje]

Mari's attitude about life seems akin to saying you want to be good at playing the guitar, and then not practicing, and then complaining that you're no good at playing so why bother.

Oh yes. For that's me one of the just...most frustrating/annoying aspects of some people like Marigold's personalities. Someone says 'I want to do ___' You say 'Okay, why don't we do ___?' and over and over and over again they're like 'Oh no I'd just fail/I can't do that/there's no point/I'd look stupid'
And I wholly understand sometimes people just want to be pitied, but at least like...say that or something, y'know?

I never thought I was an introvert because I love talking to people and getting to know them and I'm not really that shy, but then I looked at the criteria for being one and I totally am. XD Lots of people at once exhaust me, (smaller groups of like seven or less are awesome though) and the typical social interactions of strangers - small talk and the like - annoy me to no end. I haaate small talk. It's so boring omg. I've trained myself to do it, but maaan, it takes so much more effort.

[Tova]

Mari's attitude about life seems akin to saying you want to be good at playing the guitar, and then not practicing, and then complaining that you're no good at playing so why bother.

Oh yes. For that's me one of the just...most frustrating/annoying aspects of some people like Marigold's personalities. Someone says 'I want to do ___' You say 'Okay, why don't we do ___?' and over and over and over again they're like 'Oh no I'd just fail/I can't do that/there's no point/I'd look stupid'

I daresay that this type of thinking is really not so uncommon, and holds a lot of people back.

[jwhouk]

What was THE MOMENT OF THE WEEK?

Yelling Bird and Shelby plug QCV2!    - 1 (2.2%)
"I ran into the door until it broke!"    - 13 (28.9%)
Hello, Nice People!    - 1 (2.2%)
Are you super strong? Can you shoot lasers? DO YOU HAVE ROCKET BOOTS?!    - 4 (8.9%)
...that can blow the socks off a man at 100 meters! (Let's try it out!)    - 2 (4.4%)
That girl is a bad influence    - 4 (8.9%)
You really do sound like her dad.    - 1 (2.2%)
Elliot: "We? You mean you and Sam and... him?"    - 5 (11.1%)
Awkward Marten activated! "I get leg cramps"    - 2 (4.4%)
Momo got Marten a date!    - 3 (6.7%)
Nothing's ever simple for you romantically, is it?  "Like a Rush song: complicated and wanky."    - 4 (8.9%)
So do you want to... "Not now, I'm busy."    - 5 (11.1%)

Total Voters: 45

[dr. nervioso]

Marigold, I must say, is getting better. She is much more socially apt than when we met her a few hundred strips back.

See, Marigold is still in her social adolescence phase. Pretty much everyone has one. It usually happens in/after college or high school. For example, let's use the QC characters fr example : Marten's D&D nerdiness, Dora's gothness, and I would say Sven is having the transition right now. This idea is that n one is an asshole/ manwhore/etc. to their very core.Social adolescence is usually the transition between the selfish, depressed teenager to the more levelheaded adult.

Back to Marigold, I would assume that she has been sheltered for so long that she is delicate and is very sensitive to certain social situations (reference: Marigold and Angus). She is very behind with her emotional identity (She would go out with any guy if he was nice to her). The path ahead for Marigold is a tough one. She is going to have to get broken apart and rebuilt if she ever wants t become part of conventional society (Which is debatable that she actually does, seeing how she loves to live in an unconventional, virtual society)

She has made a few good steps to social maturity: She has met new friends, had a beer with them, admitted her feelings t a crush (Not in the most elegant way, but still). She is moving to a better place in her life step by step

[John_Knee]

And we see once again why Marigold doesn't have any friends except those she's been forced to make.

That comment shows a complete understanding of what it is like to be introverted. Introverts don't seek out a large group of friends and the most introverted of people can make do with literately 1-2 close friends and a smallish group of associates that they know and will talk to but wouldn't in the traditional sense call friends. She (Marigold) doesn't have many friends because she hasn't tried to have a bigger group than Momo and Angus, with Hanners maybe joining that close friend status. Everyone else in her mind will be an extension of Angus and if Faye and Angus split up then there is no reason why she would otherwise seek people like Martin out. She may only continue to 'associate' with the rest of the characters of Coffee of Doom as long as Faye and Angus are together. If they did split up, she may still associate with the rest if Hanners joins her close friend group - in which case everyone else will become an extension of Hanners.

So it looks like this has been fairly well addressed already but I wanted to toss in my .02 bucks:

1) You don't know me. I have a perfectly clear understanding of what introversion is like because I am an introvert. When I was younger it was enough of an issue that I was seeing a doctor and getting medication to try to help (didn't work. Went off it with doctor's support). I understand EXACTLY what it's like to be an introvert and how the introvert perspective works. What introversion does not justify is being a jackass to the people who you are close to. I dislike Marigold's actions not because she's introverted but because she's repeatedly been a jerk to people who care about her and who she claims to care about. She's an extremely selfish person (so far. people can change and I keep hoping for that arc for her, but so far no dice) and while she complains about her social situation she does nothing to address it even when given multiple opportunities.

2) In this instance Marigold is being less of an introvert and more someone with a persecution complex. I was actually right with her in this strip up until the last panel. I understand the fear of abandonment and isolation that can come with seeing your friends become more social*. That doesn't excuse her asking Momo for one thing and then rejecting it when it's offered. I know we're supposed to chuckle at the joke but I just felt insulted on Momo's behalf. Mari keeps being given opportunities for the kind of social life she claims to want but doesn't take them and instead tries to make her close friends feel guilty for offering those opportunities to her. That's not cool, it's not ok, and it's not excused by introversion.

In short: Being an introvert doesn't mean you get to be a jerk.

What I was arguing against was your use of comments such as:

"If you need time to be by yourself and enjoy some alone time after hanging out with people because that's tiring, bingo: introvert."

Quite franky, that is a terribly poor definition of an introvert. All people at some point get fed up and need time out from people and if the definition above was taken as correct, then everyone would be classified as introverted. As for the "Mature Marigold" paragraph, I suspect she knows the way to gain more friends etc is to adopt an extroverted mindset.

1) I don't think Marigold's reaction to Momo is unique to her nor to being an introvert.

In terms of past activies of her being a 'jerk', then those times for me is as much to do with her being uneasy or inexperienced with the protocol of the situation. Steve has made a number of inappropriate comments in the presence of Martin and despite it being discussed in forums, Steve didn't seem to get so much negativity from it as Marigold. Some defended it as inside joke between friends who knew the bounderies, but as a much more extrovert character, Steve should know better. Marigold does make mistakes and comments that more socially capable people might not make, but Marigold has generally avoided such situations in the past and doesn't know.

And she has complained about her social life situation, I agree, but her complaints only really started once Angus and Faye started dating. She seemed more than happy with her social situation prior to that and didn't seem to complain in the times we met her prior to that. Hence, her complaints has been generated by outside influences that has forced her to socialised in a more extrovert way even if it doesn't come natural to her.

2) In direct response to: "Mari keeps being given opportunities for the kind of social life she claims to want but doesn't take them" - I disagree. Not on the basis of being given the opportunities but the idea the opportunities are the ones she wants. I don't believe she does ultimately want a more extrovert social life. I think what she really wants from her social life is the ability to socialise online with her raid guild and interact on a more face to face basis with Momo and Angus. I don't think she intended to make Momo feel guilty - she told Momo because Momo noticed she was down and asked. Marigold's turning down the offer of a movie or eating out is a common response from people regardless of their personality. Because I believe I know where Marigold is coming on, if I was in Momo's position then I wouldn't personally take offense. I've known plenty of extroverted people who do the same but then 30 minutes later it is all forgotten. If a person is feeling down and another person says they still love them etc then very rarely is a switch flicked in the person's brain and they suddenly become upbeat etc - not unless the person is prone to mood swings anyway. It would be interesting to see if Marigold on Monday does apologise to Momo or try to make it up to her.

[Is it cold in here?]

Marigold may have been discontent prior to Faye and Angus dating. There was that comic where she emitted a lonely sigh.

[jwhouk]

That was when Marty and Angus "defeated Awkwardness" at the HR.

[Is it cold in here?]

Truly you are the Grand Master of the Archives.

[dr. nervioso]

He should get a crown. Or a fancy monocle

[Cornan]

"If you need time to be by yourself and enjoy some alone time after hanging out with people because that's tiring, bingo: introvert."

Just so you know, that's not something I said. That's a different poster entirely. I disagree with it as well.

1) I keep trying to give Marigold the benefit of the doubt and she keeps failing. At a certain point I've stopped chalking it up to character development until a change actually happens. I think she's just kind of a jerk so far. Also, I dislike Steve because he's generally a douche-nozzle. So I'm with you on that one.

2) We didn't really see her social or life situation prior. We got a couple short glimpses but that was it. And during those glimpses she often complained. Even prior to Faye and Angus actually dating she expressed dissatisfaction with her life to date. I don't believe that all she wants is to hang out with her raid guild etc. While I'm not advocating that she abandon that aspect of her life (it's not necessary to do so to grow in the ways she seems to want to) I also don't believe that her past situation is all she really wants from life since she's stated that that's not the case.

In this specific instance it was the way in which she responded to Momo's offer that seemed wrong to me. If she does come back on Monday and say "I'm sorry, that was jerkish of me." Then my complaint is rendered moot. If this just slides off into the next arc then I think Mari was not acting like a decent person here.

Also, sorry for the late response. Was with friends watching football all day.

[Arancaytar]

This strip made me wonder if Momo is actually capable of eating food now. I hope it wouldn't work as it does with Pintsize, because that would be disgusting.

[Is it cold in here?]

Someone who deserves credit but whose name I have forgotten points out that if Momo is going to cook for Marigold, a sense of taste would be a Very Good Idea.

[Random Al Yousir]

Well, Pintsize apparently likes cake batter.  Whether or not this is an indication of taste is an open question so far.

But the issue of taste is for Pintsize not exactly a question of sensorial abilities.

[pwhodges]

Leaving aside other aspects of taste (!), Pintsize has explained his sense  of taste.

[Is it cold in here?]

Momo's new chassis is a high end model, and joining people for dinner is more important in her market than in the military market, so if Pintsize can eat, a fortiori Momo can.

Isn't it funny how now that she's people-sized we're much less likely to call her "Momo-tan"?

[DSL]

Here's hoping Momo has better luck with dinner than she did this time.

[Blackjoker]

Mostly I just think it's crappy to do something nice for someone and then resent them for it when they get "too much" benefit from it.

Mari's attitude about life seems akin to saying you want to be good at playing the guitar, and then not practicing, and then complaining that you're no good at playing so why bother.

The problem is though that you're making an irrelevant comparison, or at least a fairly poor one. If the only place I could practice the guitar was in front of extremely judgmental people, then yes, I'd likely decide that practicing it wasn't worth my time and also hate that I not know how to play. Remember too that most people in the group actually haven't tried interacting with Marigold either, Hannelore has and that is a fairly strong point in her favor. The problem is, though, that most of the rest of the group don't. Faye doesn't talk to her too much but that might be better as it could get awkward and Faye might end up hurting where she only means to snark. Marten doesn't really go to talk to her, Dora doesn't either. I'm just trying to say that going out and meeting people is something that is technically very easy but meeting people that you would WANT to interact with can be a tad more problematic.

To put it a slightly different way, Dale is someone from outside the group that interacted with Marigold, and as we can see the interactions have been...odd. Dale kind of bounces between funny and a bit creepy with some of what he does, maybe he has a mild crush on her and is acting a bit like Calvin did to Susie in Calvin and Hobbes but I can't be sure. If Dale is her main benchmark for meeting 'new' people I can see why she might be a bit opposed to trying to do it actively. Also, remember just a little while ago Marigold mentioned wishing that she could simply change her body the way that Momo can, to be more attractive or thinner, or whatever it is she thinks would make her more socially acceptable. Now Momo is out for less than a day, a random person runs up and befriends her and ANOTHER random person invites her on a weekend nature hike with Marten. Let's ignore Marigold worrying that she might lose Momo as a friend or be replaced as a friend. Let's just see some of it as all those voices in her head telling her how fat and ugly she is and how she'll always be alone being given a lot more credence. Add in that Momo apparently didn't even think of Marigold in the hike, even as far as a "Well maybe I should also see if my owner/tenant/whatever the applicable term is might like to come too."  Just my wooden nickle.

[Elysiana]

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. If you want to play guitar but have to practice in front of judgmental people, then you either need to suck it up or quit bitching that people are judgmental. You can't sit there complaining about it. Do you want to play guitar? Then do it. Do you want to play guitar but you're scared of people being judgmental so you just don't do it? Then you must not want to play that badly.

As for the second paragraph, I already touched on some of that in a previous post.