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Poll

What was the MOMENT... OF... THE WEEK???

Space Station Hannerdad!
- 3 (1.8%)
Uh, were we supposed to pass it?
- 1 (0.6%)
Just one more orbit, I promise.
- 1 (0.6%)
BAD Spaceship!
- 14 (8.5%)
Docking completed...
- 2 (1.2%)
We just have to go up to the hub bridge...
- 0 (0%)
Race you there!
- 1 (0.6%)
Marten, no! You still have all your -
- 2 (1.2%)
- mass. BERF
- 15 (9.1%)
Hello, Station!
- 1 (0.6%)
Aren't there any, um, PEOPLE?
- 0 (0%)
128 researchers, security, and support personnel on board
- 0 (0%)
Station, Spaceship... notice a pattern
- 0 (0%)
Hannelore went through a descriptivist phase...
- 3 (1.8%)
I called my dad "Sceince Daddy" until I was 17.
- 12 (7.3%)
Notorious Marten Reed (ugh I hate MC Hammer)
- 3 (1.8%)
Lieutenant Potter.
- 5 (3%)
US Military takes their duties more seriously than they ought.
- 1 (0.6%)
Station, I'm just trying to do my job.
- 0 (0%)
Fine, fine... Okay... what?
- 0 (0%)
USAF Academy Graduation Party!
- 32 (19.5%)
Lots of solar interference all of a sudden.
- 3 (1.8%)
That was awful, Station!
- 0 (0%)
Don't apologize to me, go apologize to Lt. Potter. AND MEAN IT!
- 5 (3%)
And give Marigold a holo-pony!
- 38 (23.2%)
oh my god
- 22 (13.4%)

Total Members Voted: 59


Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT 2111-2115 (Jan 30 - Feb 3, 2012) - QC in SPAAAAAAACE!!! Week 2!  (Read 73583 times)

jwhouk

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And here we go with the SECOND week of "QC in SPAAAAAACE!".

« Last Edit: 03 Feb 2012, 04:04 by jwhouk »
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DSL

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Did you put Cleese in because he'd be "something completely different"? 'Cause that's why I voted for him. Also, here's one vote from Hanners for Hawking.
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ecstaticjoy

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oh gross nooooooo!

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Bill must be visiting from Station Alpha Beta


Hope HannnerDads Station isn't over Macho Greande.
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Skewbrow

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Me 2.

But what if HannerDad has ... uploaded, and we won't really see "him"?
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Is it cold in here?

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That makes so much sense.
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Visualised as Holodad.
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jwhouk

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Bill must be visiting from Station Alpha Beta

Hope HannnerDads Station isn't over Macho Greande.

I KNEW I forgot one! Thanks!
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Bill must be visiting from Station Alpha Beta

Hope HannnerDads Station isn't over Macho Greande.

I KNEW I forgot one! Thanks!

*Bows Courtly Style*
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Comic up!  Space station donut shaped!  Spaceship in no hurry to dock!  I'll stop using exclaimation points now!
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WAYF

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For someone who complains so insistently about his own art quality, Jeph sure doesn't spare many expenses.
I mean, wow.
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Skewbrow

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Looks like they need to wait quite a while ...
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cesariojpn

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Looks like someone is gonna get defraged.
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Is it cold in here?

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Was the pilot deliberately giving them more chances to look at the station?
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jwhouk

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Probably. Just like Scotty in ST:TMP.
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akronnick

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Was the pilot deliberately giving them more chances to look at the station?

Probably just taking time to align and synchronize the orbits. There is a reason it takes a spacecraft two to three days after launch to reach the ISS.
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Soulsynger

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Was the pilot deliberately giving them more chances to look at the station?
Probably just taking time to align and synchronize the orbits. There is a reason it takes a spacecraft two to three days after launch to reach the ISS.
Well, then Hanner's "Bad spaceship!" was just impolitely uncalled for.

But I love how she treats unbelievably advanced technology like pets or childhood toys. ... that basically seems to be what they were and always will be for her. A thought I adore, actually. :)
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Why aren't Marten and Marigirl taking continuous snapshots?
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iduguphergrave

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Well, then Hanner's "Bad spaceship!" was just impolitely uncalled for.

But I love how she treats unbelievably advanced technology like pets or childhood toys. ... that basically seems to be what they were and always will be for her. A thought I adore, actually. :)

"Bad spaceship! No Spaceship treat!"
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Soulsynger

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Why aren't Marten and Marigirl taking continuous snapshots?
Holowang-camera. Films it.


But actually, you're right. And its something that gets me all the time as well. When I'm having an awesome time, I always forget to take pictures. Or to remind anyone else to take some.
Afterwards, I usually kick myself for it. As will those two. And nobody will believe them when they tell the story. (Is it all maybe just a dream?)
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J

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Visualised as Holodad.
or downloaded into robodad.
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Akima

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There is a reason it takes a spacecraft two to three days after launch to reach the ISS.
Enormously more primitive launch technology than is available to J E-C? I'm sure Hannelore knows the drill, and she was obviously surprised. She can probably compute orbits in her head. Skewbrow would approve. :-D

So Jeph opts for the classic "Wheel In Space". You can't go wrong with the classics. Or lens-flare.
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gopher

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I was hoping for a 2001 double wheel, still its pretty and classic.
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Skewbrow

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There is a reason it takes a spacecraft two to three days after launch to reach the ISS.
Enormously more primitive launch technology than is available to J E-C? I'm sure Hannelore knows the drill, and she was obviously surprised. She can probably compute orbits in her head. Skewbrow would approve. :-D
Absolutely. :-D

But do any of you have an idea, how much manouverability something like a space shuttle has, when attempting to dock? If there is a speed difference of 80 meters per second (or about 1 per cent of the orbital speed, or 180 mph), can you still comfortably decelerate/accelerate to match speeds after you first spot the station with (un)aided eye? I mean with 1 per cent speed difference you would have to wait for a hundred laps (or close to a week) to get another change, so surely they can do better than that, but by how much?

Edit: Thanks @DSL, @akronnick for the overview below. I did know about the need to align the orbital planes (math guys always assume that this has happened before they start, because then your picture will fit on a chalkboard or any 2D). The stuff about speeding up putting you on a higher, and  consequently also slower orbit, is something that is also obvious, but I'm ashamed to admit I completely overlooked :-) Therefore any calculation based on 1% speed difference is best forgotten. Practice...
« Last Edit: 30 Jan 2012, 07:37 by Skewbrow »
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DSL

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Ability to change velocities while in orbit is most of it. Also, if the orbit is inclined, there's a matter of matching the ground track of the target. That's why you heard talk of "launch window" for missions to ISS. What little I know comes from trying to read what Buzz Aldrin wrote in his books, but there's the seeming paradox of trying to match a higher orbit from a lower one, in which the net effect of speeding up is to slow down (because more velocity puts you in a higher, slower orbit) ... so you retro-thrust to slow down to catch up with your target, then hit the gas to slow down. Or as one of the other Astros is supposed to have told Aldrin, "Dammit, Aldrin, you're not messing up my mission profile with this rendezvous crap!"
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akronnick

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DSL speaks the truth.

If the Station is big enough to use the wheel concept for artificial gravity, it would be easy to spot dozens if not hundreds of miles away.

Orbits are weird.

To change an orbit in an efficient manner, it is not enough to burn your engines, you have to burn them at the right time, for the right duration, and in the right direction.

To achieve rendesvous you must:

1. Align the orbital planes of you and your target. You have to match the target's inclination as well as the ascending node and descending node (the nodes are where your orbital plane crosses the Equator). This is most easily achieved during launch.
 
2. Match orbital profiles. You have to get yourself in an orbit that has the same apogee(point farthest from Earth) and perigee(point nearest Earth). To change your perigee, you burn at apogee, and to change your apogee, burn at perigee.

3. Then you have to synchronize the orbits. This is where you have to burn forward to go back and vice versa. During this phase you could easily pass within visual range of the target, but you would not be able to catch it because the velocity doesn't match, and if you change your velocity now, your altitude will be wrong.

4. Once you get yourself close to the target, in the same orbit, going the same speed, congratulations you have achieved Rendezvous! Now comes the hard part, Docking.

It doesn't matter how fancy your spaceship is, or how much fuel you have. Isaac Newton cares not for your fancy technology. Gravity is the LAW.



I know all this stuff because I have dabbled in a free open source space flight simulator called "Orbiter". If you want to check it out, Google is your friend.
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Why aren't Marten and Marigirl taking continuous snapshots?

Because sometimes it's nice to view the world for real, rather than through a camera viewfinder. To live in the moment, not thinking about how you're gonna post all this on tumblr tomorrow.

Also, if people want pictures of space they can google for high-quality satellite images. They don't need blurry snaphots taken by some excited bozo with a cameraphone.
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Based on the options, I want the Captain's duel.  How much ham can the station hold?
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cesariojpn

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I was hoping for a 2001 double wheel, still its pretty and classic.

Why are you reminding me of MST3K for some odd reason?
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specter177

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Was the pilot deliberately giving them more chances to look at the station?

Probably just taking time to align and synchronize the orbits. There is a reason it takes a spacecraft two to three days after launch to reach the ISS.

During Gemini, they could do rendezvouses in less than an orbit. It all depends on where the vehicle you want to catch is, and how much fuel you have.
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jwhouk

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If that's what I think it is in the background, I believe the station is situated over the Pacific, roughly near Hawaii.
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DSL

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Was the pilot deliberately giving them more chances to look at the station?

Probably just taking time to align and synchronize the orbits. There is a reason it takes a spacecraft two to three days after launch to reach the ISS.

During Gemini, they could do rendezvouses in less than an orbit. It all depends on where the vehicle you want to catch is, and how much fuel you have.


That's because NASA synchronized the launches for the mission, which was expressly for the purpose of practicing rendezvous. Other factors can affect a launch schedule, necessitating more or less time on orbit before rendezvous. For example, last week's rendezvous and docking of a Progress uncrewed freighter with ISS came after the freighter was on orbit for about two days -- and for whatever reason, probably more politics than anything, required coordination between ground stations in Houston and Korolev, as well as ISS.
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Milesb

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Clearly Spaceship hasn't had any particular HAL 9000 moments if Hanner's responses are so laid back about him going for another orbit!

I'm really liking the positive nature of these interactions though - Hanners seems to be going into her comfort zone while Marten and Marigold are out of their own comfort zones, and it's quite interesting to see.

But I'm also worried; Jeph hardly ever (never?) writes arcs where's it's all fluffy bunnies and good times, and if I had to pick out a likely clash it'd be between Hannerdad and Hanners. Could be depressing, yo.

Anyhow, anyone interested in experiencing trying to launch a rocket and get it into orbit or even orbital rendezvous, find Kerbal Space Program and give it a go. I played it a few months back and managed to get my own rocket design orbiting the moon - it took me days of planning. It's probably one of the easiest ways to gain experience / understanding (in slightly simplistic terms) of how space flight works.

(Mods, I tried to check if it's okay for me to talk about KSP here but couldn't verify - apologies if it's not cool)




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DSL

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Dammit, now I want an intelligent, autonomous HOTOL/SSTO spaceplane I can treat as a pet.

Wonder how Hanners feels about that other Strauss fella's work? Something about a river ...
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The HOTOL/SSTO bit is being worked on, and it's even automated, but I don't think it's AI, just remote control.
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Why is it I suddenly have the drum music from the BSG Mini-series running through my head.  :D

Undoubtedly, Spaceship will be in the Doghouse when they finally dock - and no treats.
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James The Kugai 

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Overkillengine

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Spaceship just reminded me of a horse that loves to run and doesn't get many chances to do so.  :-D
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Akima

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Anyhow, anyone interested in experiencing trying to launch a rocket and get it into orbit or even orbital rendezvous, find Kerbal Space Program and give it a go.
Or Orbiter if you run Windows. And yes, working out orbits is tricky, but the very tight Delta-V budgets enforced by our existing technology are a big part of why orbit changes take days.
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Spaceship just reminded me of a horse that loves to run and doesn't get many chances to do so.  :-D

I like this comment more than I can adequately explain. Thank you for posting it.
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"Orbiter".
Gonna check it out.  Is it like a regular flight simulator, but in SPACE?  Also, is it bound to annoying things like things that are possible, or can you make a spaceship fly at .999c into the sun?
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jwhouk

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akronnick

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"Orbiter".
Gonna check it out.  Is it like a regular flight simulator, but in SPACE?  Also, is it bound to annoying things like things that are possible, or can you make a spaceship fly at .999c into the sun?

Relativity is not modeled, so you can tool around at Warp 9 if you like, but the universe outside of the Solar System is simply painted on an infinitely distant backdrop, so you can't get to, say, Alpha Centauri.
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gopher

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If that's what I think it is in the background, I believe the station is situated over the Pacific, roughly near Hawaii.

As we have seen the station move across the sky in the Hanners/Sven story and as the Earth still looks pretty huge I doubt it is in Geo-stationary orbit.
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Akima

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Learn physics with Hannelore! I wonder if she'll explain that they're not in zero gravity, but in free fall...
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The game has officially changed.



I think I know what I'm getting my friend for a present... (I got her hooked on QC and she LOVES Pintsize...)
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Arancaytar

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Quote
the spinning section

It makes sense to keep the hub still, of course, because you don't want to make spaceships have to start spinning before docking. But now I'm wonder how they transfer from the hub to the spinning section without some awful acceleration or alignment problems. At best, I can imagine a lift-tube that rotates along with the rest, and that periodically aligns with a hatch in the hub. You'd have to time your entrance well to avoid getting squashed, though.

The same question was bothering me in Ender's Game, too.
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akronnick

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Ever step onto one of the moving loading platforms that Disney World rides have? Same principle.

The transfer would happen in the hub, and since your still at the center, there's not much relative motion to deal with.
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Akronnick, I can think of no more appropriate steed for a Knight Of The Dickbroom than a foul-mouthed, perpetually shouting, lust-crazed bird with a scrotum hanging from its chin and a distinctive cry of "Gobble gobble gobble".   --Tergon

Skewbrow

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Quote
the spinning section

It makes sense to keep the hub still, of course, because you don't want to make spaceships have to start spinning before docking. But now I'm wonder how they transfer from the hub to the spinning section without some awful acceleration or alignment problems. At best, I can imagine a lift-tube that rotates along with the rest, and that periodically aligns with a hatch in the hub. You'd have to time your entrance well to avoid getting squashed, though.

The same question was bothering me in Ender's Game, too.

As was explained by Akima and PWHodges in the "spinning space station" thread a practical solution is to make the docking spaceship spin at the same rate as the station. That is probably preferrable to docking with a non-spinning hub connected to the rest of the space station by a giant ball bearing or something. The latter solution would just move the problem from the hatch separating the spaceship from the hub to the connection between the spinning and non-spinning sections of the station.

Because the spaceship is so small (in comparison to the space station), the resulting centrifugal acceleration (proportional to the radius of the ship, or more precisely, to the distance from the axis of the rotation) is barely noticeable. More like a drift towards the "floor". I am assuming that the spaceship docks at its nose (or the rear-end), but I may be wrong about this.
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Arancaytar

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Ever step onto one of the moving loading platforms that Disney World rides have? Same principle.

The transfer would happen in the hub, and since your still at the center, there's not much relative motion to deal with.
Oh, I guess I misjudged the radius and the angular velocity you'd need for Earth gravity. I haven't actually tried to work the numbers out yet.
Edit: According to Wikipedia, centripetal acceleration is v˛/r, and of course v is 2r*pi*(rotations per second), then for 1g at, say, 50m radius (if it's comparable to the ISS), you'd be going at 22.14m/s, which would be 0.07rps. I guess if your central corridor has a radius of 5m, the hatches would move relatively at about 2m/s. Which is still kinda quick. Maybe they keep the gravity somewhat lower than 1g, and the space station is a bit wider than that, and the corridor a bit thinner. At 0.8g, 100m and 2m, it'd be just over 0.5m/s.
« Last Edit: 31 Jan 2012, 02:57 by Arancaytar »
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As was explained by Akima and PWHodges in the "spinning space station" thread a practical solution is to make the docking spaceship spin at the same rate as the station.

And we can thank Clarke and Kubrick for an excellent representation of how this would look in 2001: A Space Odyssey.
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