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Author Topic: English is weird  (Read 304084 times)

Akima

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #300 on: 03 Nov 2013, 02:04 »

If a bread knife is used for cutting bread,
and a steak knife is used for cutting steak,
and a butter knife is used for cutting butter,
what is a chef knife for?
Chef's knives do quite often cut chefs, but a sheath-knife is not for cutting sheaths, a boot-knife is not for cutting boots, a jack-knife is not for cutting jacks, a flick-knife is not for cutting flicks, a trench-knife is not for cutting trenches, and a butterfly-knife is not for cutting butterflies.
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Pilchard123

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #301 on: 03 Nov 2013, 02:55 »

Sunflower oil, olive oil, coconut oil ... baby oil?
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #302 on: 03 Nov 2013, 06:48 »

If a bread knife is used for cutting bread,
and a steak knife is used for cutting steak,
and a butter knife is used for cutting butter,
what is a chef knife for?
Chef's knives do quite often cut chefs, but a sheath-knife is not for cutting sheaths, a boot-knife is not for cutting boots, a jack-knife is not for cutting jacks, a flick-knife is not for cutting flicks, a trench-knife is not for cutting trenches, and a butterfly-knife is not for cutting butterflies.

trench knives are for cutting things IN trenches though!
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #303 on: 03 Nov 2013, 11:00 »

I can never forget that deadpan line from The Addams Family about Girl Scout cookies.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #304 on: 03 Nov 2013, 22:10 »

Sunflower oil, olive oil, coconut oil ... baby oil?

Olive Oyl's family from the old Popeye comics; father Cole, mother Nana, and brother Castor. 

Maybe this belongs in the pun thread, but...
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #305 on: 04 Nov 2013, 00:14 »

Some try to use ghoti as an example of how weird the rules of English spelling are.  And while the rules mentioned for the parts of the word are all true, they are not true for how the word is constructed.  No English word that starts with gh has the gh make the 'f' sound, nor does a word ending in ti make the 'sh' sound.

Quote
Linguists have pointed out that the location of the letters in the constructed word is inconsistent with how those letters would be pronounced in those placements, and that the expected pronunciation in English would be "goaty".  For instance, the letters "gh" cannot be pronounced /f/ at the beginning of a syllable, and the letters "ti" cannot be pronounced /ʃ/ at the end of a syllable.

Rules, people.  They exist for a reason.  Else we'd all be a bunch of uncultured barbarians.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #306 on: 04 Nov 2013, 00:19 »

Some try to use ghoti as an example of how weird the rules of English spelling are.

It was G B Shaw who used that example.  And even though it's not realistic, it does make the point.  I prefer to point out the number of different sounds represented by "ough" (I have nine to hand).  (Or ten even - here I am saying them.)
« Last Edit: 04 Nov 2013, 00:31 by pwhodges »
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #307 on: 10 Nov 2013, 22:46 »

Maybe this belongs in the pun thread, but...
Oh, no. NO. Someone mentions this thread, so I find it and read all 300+ posts...only to see this. Damn you, sir.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #308 on: 11 Nov 2013, 00:55 »

My wife and I were talking about electric vehicles and she observed that "charging station" is actually a contradiction in terms.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #309 on: 14 Nov 2013, 05:15 »

I was talking to a colleague about the origin of the work "trunk" for the luggage compartment of a car, which we call "boot" over here.  She found this thread for me, which I enjoyed in a number of ways.

I'd not previously met the terms "leftpondian" and "rightpondian", and their more detailed derivatives, though referring to the Atlantic as "the pond" is common when talking about the two sides of it.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #310 on: 14 Nov 2013, 10:31 »

I'm not crazy about "left/right" being used to refer to "west/east" but I call the Atlantic the pond all the time.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #311 on: 14 Nov 2013, 11:23 »

Posh.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #312 on: 15 Nov 2013, 02:42 »

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Akima

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #313 on: 15 Nov 2013, 04:06 »

FYI that Chinese character at the end is or wén which means "language".
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #314 on: 15 Nov 2013, 14:04 »

Shouldn't "denoting" be the opposite of "noting"?
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #315 on: 15 Nov 2013, 14:08 »

Quite some time ago I decided that "dote", when used as a noun, referred to a poison. I still think it makes sense.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #316 on: 15 Nov 2013, 14:38 »

Shouldn't "denoting" be the opposite of "noting"?
There are so many words with the de- prefix that have no relation to their meaning without the prefix, that de- must have (had) a different meaning than to undo something.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #317 on: 15 Nov 2013, 14:57 »

See also flammable and inflammable.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #318 on: 15 Nov 2013, 15:24 »

There are so many words with the de- prefix that have no relation to their meaning without the prefix, that de- must have (had) a different meaning than to undo something.
Or de- words that are "rootless" in the sense that the word that is prefixed does not exist. For example: "degauss", when "gauss" is not a verb, and nothing is ever "gaussed".
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #319 on: 15 Nov 2013, 16:37 »

A lot of them are indeed rootless (as far as modern speech is concerned), like delete, derive, defy, deflect, deride, despise, deceive, declare, destroy, demolish, devour, decide, deduce, deject, develop, debate, decant, deprive, deprave, decay and detect, but many also seem to have a root, like devote, detest, deserve, default, decry, defeat, descent, decease, defence, delay, deliberate, deliver, denominate, depart, deploy, depress, design and detail.

Thus ends this demonstration.
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Quote from: snalin
I just got the image of a midwife and a woman giving birth swinging towards each other on a trapeze - when they meet, the midwife pulls the baby out. The knife juggler is standing on the floor and cuts the umbilical cord with a a knifethrow.

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #320 on: 15 Nov 2013, 18:54 »

But some of those "rootless" de- words do have a counterpart that begins with re-, suggesting a common etymological root at some point, even if the root is no longer in use as a standalone word. Such as: reflect, receive, reduce, reject, recant, revise, repress, resist.

See also:
(click to show/hide)
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #321 on: 22 Nov 2013, 04:01 »

How many profane verbs are used as positive adjectives? It occured to me that "bitching" (or "bitchin'" as it's more commonly used) as an adjective is often a good thing. "That wave was totally bitchin'." (It looks like a gerund but it's really an adjective, like 'awesome'.) But you can't do that with other profane verbs-as-adjectives. "Totally fuckin'/shittin'/pissin'/dickin'" are never used. Nor are "Cuntin'/Whorin'/Assin'"... fuck, I'm running out of profanity.
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Quote from: snalin
I just got the image of a midwife and a woman giving birth swinging towards each other on a trapeze - when they meet, the midwife pulls the baby out. The knife juggler is standing on the floor and cuts the umbilical cord with a a knifethrow.

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #322 on: 22 Nov 2013, 04:23 »

See also:
(click to show/hide)

Yes.

From OED (heavily précied):

whelm verb & noun. verb intrans: Overturn, capsize. verb trans: Turn (a hollow vessel) upside down, cover with an upside-down vessel; submerge, drown, bury.  noun: A wooden drainpipe originally made from a hollowed tree trunk; a surge (of activity, water, etc) poet.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #323 on: 27 Nov 2013, 23:58 »

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #324 on: 28 Nov 2013, 01:08 »

I think the motivations for the changes are a bit cherry-picked - but the one about changes to match an incorrect Latin etymology is true enough.  But basically it can be summarised by saying that English has been hacked together and bashed about more than most languages, and it shows.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #325 on: 28 Nov 2013, 14:36 »

Quote from: James Davis Nicoll
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle[sic] their pockets for new vocabulary.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #326 on: 29 Nov 2013, 00:22 »

That quote isn't from Pratchett? I need to read more of this man.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #327 on: 30 Nov 2013, 00:18 »

As far as I can tell, the I Before E rule does work, but you have to approach it from a bit of an etymological standpoint. It applies almost uniformly to words that are not:

Words of romance origin into Middle English (and some other words with two pronounced syllables ie or ei, like science)
German bastardizations, like neighbor (nachbar), eight (acht), freight (fracht), etc
anything from gaelic
Loan words, for the love of god why would you apply a spelling rule to words that came from a completely different language with completely different spelling rules, like ceilidh, hacienda, Eid, geisha, zeitgeist, and sheikh, of course it isn't going to work you idiots
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #328 on: 30 Nov 2013, 06:51 »

Considering much of the English language is words of Romance origin into Middle English, German bastardizations and a smattering of Gaelic, it's safe to say the rule doesn't work.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #329 on: 30 Nov 2013, 08:49 »

It's not so bad if you recall that it only applies to the sound "-ee-"; but yes, it's a pretty crap rule, though somewhat useful in practice.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #330 on: 30 Nov 2013, 12:45 »

"...or except as an 'a', as in neighbor and weigh."

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #331 on: 09 Dec 2013, 01:05 »

I was thinking today, while waiting for a compile/make at work, that it is odd that army is treated as a singular while police is treated as a plural:

The police are investigating a murder.

The army is attacking the enemy.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #332 on: 09 Dec 2013, 02:57 »

I decided to try mixing those sentences around, to see how weird they looked, and I ended up with this:

The police is attacking a murder.

The army are investigating the enemy.

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Akima

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #333 on: 09 Dec 2013, 03:23 »

"The army are" sounds less strange than "the police is" I think.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #334 on: 09 Dec 2013, 03:32 »

Unless you travel south of the river
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #335 on: 09 Dec 2013, 03:33 »

I think it's less jarring because the word "police" can be both singular and plural, while the word "army" is singular. Moreover, the army is usually seen as a single monolithic institution while in this example it's implied that you have a bunch of police officers diligently investigating a murder.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #336 on: 09 Dec 2013, 03:39 »

I was observing to my Polish housemate the other day that the exact same phrase in English can have totally opposite meanings depending on tone of voice.

The example I used was 'Can we not do that?'

In fact it's not even just tone, but facial expression. Sour faced expression 'Can we not do that?' means 'I don't want to do that.' Wry grin expression 'Can we not do that?' means 'I do want to do that.'

Also, in London vernacular, 'allow it' means 'stop it,' which is LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT 'ALLOW IT' MEANS
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #337 on: 09 Dec 2013, 03:49 »

I think it's less jarring because the word "police" can be both singular and plural, while the word "army" is singular. Moreover, the army is usually seen as a single monolithic institution while in this example it's implied that you have a bunch of police officers diligently investigating a murder.
I think you've got it wrong. Why not consider each individual soldier and support staff in the army like you consider the police officers and clerks?

Police' is an uncountable noun, while 'army' is a countable noun, but that doesn't explain anything further. "The information have been collected" doesn't work, for example, nor does "The money are arrived."

The same discussion is being had here.
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Quote from: snalin
I just got the image of a midwife and a woman giving birth swinging towards each other on a trapeze - when they meet, the midwife pulls the baby out. The knife juggler is standing on the floor and cuts the umbilical cord with a a knifethrow.

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Re: English is weird
« Reply #338 on: 09 Dec 2013, 03:56 »

[...]
Also, in London vernacular, 'allow it' means 'stop it,' which is LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT 'ALLOW IT' MEANS
Could you give an example of how that is supposed to work?
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #339 on: 09 Dec 2013, 04:11 »

I second Beo's request for an example.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #340 on: 09 Dec 2013, 04:12 »

I've been away from London for a while but I think it goes a little something like this;

"I'm gonna keep hitting on your mum's 'til she gives us a nosh"

"allow it"
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #341 on: 09 Dec 2013, 04:16 »

Also, I realise English is the grubby kleptomaniac cousin in linguistics, but I've been a bit surprised at the increase in Cheezburger vernacular  on the street.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #342 on: 09 Dec 2013, 04:17 »

I am baffled at how much memes have penetrated into real culture.

And Killer's example is spot on. It's literally just as simple as 'Man you're such a dick, why do you have to be such a dick all the time?' 'All right, all right, allow it!'
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #343 on: 09 Dec 2013, 04:23 »

Nosh is one if me favourite euphemisms at the moment, mostly because there's a sandwich chain of that name.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #344 on: 09 Dec 2013, 07:31 »

Wait, that's a euphemism? I thought he wanted the mom to fix him and his friends a snack :parrot:
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #345 on: 09 Dec 2013, 08:05 »

Nosh is Yiddish for food or a meal (also cf German: naschen, to nibble).  In US also a snack or titbit.  (from OED)
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #346 on: 09 Dec 2013, 08:12 »

I like to nosh on a knish. 

The k is not silent. 


We call it a knosh.    :D
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #347 on: 09 Dec 2013, 08:13 »

It's "Nosh" to me. There's a lovely little wine bar in Estes Park, CO called Nosh that has some fantastic cheese and snack platters.
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #348 on: 09 Dec 2013, 08:20 »

I love knishes! They are the best (then again I love the potato in almost any form).
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Re: English is weird
« Reply #349 on: 29 Dec 2013, 12:56 »

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