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[lottie]

Okay, I GET that not everyone wants kids, and am fully in support of people making their own life choices, no matter how they differ from mine.  But why the hate on kids?  Are they really that bad?  I think it seems  a little disturbing to insulate your life so that it only includes your generation, except for occasional brief appearances from your parents.  Just like multi-culturalism is important, ageism is bad too.

And it's fine that Jacques doesn't really want them in his comic, and doesn't see it happening for his characters, they are his, I just don't get the total vitriol.  Or maybe it's because we've really only heard from Dora, who is ardently anti-child?  And I'm fine with one anti-child character, but a whole community of them seems... unlikely?  Scary? 

Here's hoping this doesn't bring out only the people like Dora who despise anyone under the drinking age line, telling me all about every horrible experience they've ever had because some obnoxious breeder had the gall to bring their children in public.  I'm actually interested in a little more of a nuanced response on whether the issue constitutes ageism.

[Redball]

As I read the thread, I wondered in how many ways the attitudes of the posters differ from others of the same age/gender/nationality who aren't members of the forum. Quite a bit, perhaps.

[Thrudd]

Sad but true none the same, but isn't this just more of the same where personal choice is pretty much centered around the self with no actual thought given to being centered around someone else who would depend on you implicitly for everything?
Children are Expensive as an excuse? That is more telling on personal priorities than anything.

The sad possible connotation is that the stupid and ignorant that breed like fruit flies [those breed till they poison their food source] can and will out-breed those of us with some modicum of responsibility?
I only partly recall a sci-fi short novella or three based on such a premise. All were outer-limits dark IIRC.
Even more telling is to take a look at the 0.1% and see that they also do breed.
So why are we effectively eliminating ourselves from the gene pool?
I am beginning to wonder, in that conspiracy way, if it is just another part of the eventual segregation of humanity into tiers with the top tier completely cut off from the rest.

Let the conspiracy diatrides begin .... Mwhahahahahahahaaahahaaaah heeee *cough**cough**cough* haaaahaaaahaaaahaaaa ....

[Is it cold in here?]

Some people have a neurological need for the structure and predictability that children are so well designed for destroying.

Oh, and welcome, new person!

[Ohf]

But why the hate on kids?

Umm, huh? There is no hate on kids.

[Is it cold in here?]

Welcome, other new person!

Calling them "awful mewling poo-larvae" and announcing an intention to use them as a food source is hardly neutral.

If you're thinking of the reactions of people on the forum, it's more precise to say some of them hate the idea of parenthood as opposed to hating children.

[Barmymoo]

Children are Expensive as an excuse? That is more telling on personal priorities than anything.

Yes, I'd agree with this. I personally do want children, very much, which will be no surprise to anyone who has been on this forum for more than five minutes and/or does not block avatars. But whether or not you have children should absolutely be based on personal priorities. This isn't a black/white selfish/selfless distinction situation - you can argue it is selfish to have children in an over-populated planet, you can argue it is selfish to not have children in order to be free to travel or whatever. Children are expensive. They are astonishingly expensive. One of the statistics brought up in the WCDT was that women who have children at 24 earn around Ł565,000 less than women who do not have children. That is half a million. That is a shit ton of money, and that isn't even including the actual tangible costs. It is totally a valid reason to not have children.

I don't think there is hate towards children, either in the comic or in the forum as a whole. Jeph doesn't want children, so naturally he has no interest in writing about them. He hasn't written any pet snakes either, and indeed none of the cast has a dog even though we know that he does. Not wanting to write about something doesn't mean you hate it. But if you aren't a children person, then it makes sense that the characters you create would be angled towards not wanting children, because that's the attitude you're most familiar with. The fact that Faye talks about maybe having kids in the future just shows that Jeph doesn't hate children so much that it blinds him to the fact that many people want them.

On the forum? Some people want kids. Some people don't. A very small minority actively dislike them. And to be fair, the number of children who display thoroughly unpleasant behaviour makes that unsurprising.

[Ohf]

Calling them "awful mewling poo-larvae" and announcing an intention to use them as a food source is hardly neutral.

Making a fictional character say such things about kids doesn't mean there was "hate on kids" in real life. But that's what the original poster suggested. Jeph doesn't include kids in QC not because he hates kids but for the same reason why QC doesn't include elephants—it simply isn't about kids or elephants. Moreover ... QC obviously is just about to include kids. Sam is a kid after all, and there may be more of them to come in the future ...

So the question about "why there's hate on kids" after one character made a repudiative remark is just absurd.

If you're thinking of the reactions of people on the forum, it's more precise to say some of them hate the idea of parenthood as opposed to hating children.

Exactly.

[lottie]

It's not his first comment.  The previous comic that brought it up was Dora again though, so I get that she's the child disliker.  Many moons ago she made a comment about her womb shriveling in horror when thinking of the idea that there could be a baby in it.  It just seems like this is absurdly insular existence.

[Ohf]

The previous comic that brought it up was Dora again though, so I get that she's the child disliker.  Many moons ago she made a comment about her womb shriveling in horror when thinking of the idea that there could be a baby in it.

Yeah—it's always Dora who is making remarks of this kind. This is exactly the reason why I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the first in her social circle to get pregnant ... 

[HiFranc]

For me, I once looked forward to having children.  At university I volunteered to help out at the Kidds' Klub.  It had about 20x 3-9 year olds (they were the children of other students and the club existed to give their parents a break).  Usually there were 4-5 of us on duty and I did what I could to encourage the quiet ones to take part in activities we had. 

One day there was only 2 of us on duty and that afternoon has put me off children for the rest of my life!  It was quite simple: you blinked, there was a fight.  We were run ragged just trying to keep order.  The children probably didn't have much fun.

[jwhouk]

Fear. 

Fear that I could possibly screw up the life of another human being - without trying.

That's why I'm sans children.

Oh, that and where I work.

[idontunderstand]

There's nothing wrong with kids. I love 'um. Most of 'um at least. I used to work at various kindergartens and it hasn't destroyed me.

[Is it cold in here?]

HiFranc made me think of an adult in a poly family who said the main thing to know about raising children is "outnumber them".

[jwhouk]

Erm, shouldn't this thread be merged with the one in DISCUSS?

[DSL]

I just remember how glad I was to no longer be one.

[Bluesummers]

I just remember how glad I was to no longer be one.

Same here. And I'm afraid of becoming my parents, in trying to raise my own child...hence the fear. Not hate...just uncertainty.

[Ohf]

Maybe you should start with a pet or something.

[Bluesummers]

I have ten cats and two dogs. All are spayed/neutered, up to date on vaccinations, and the cats are indoor-only. I know how to take care of living things...but it's preparing for socialization, how the kids would interact with other kids, and similar aspects of child-rearing that I worry about.

[Ohf]

... but you understand that I was kidding? 

[mustang6172]

I was visiting my niece at Christmas and it really made me wonder if I wanted a creature in my house that requires more attention than a cat.

On the other hand I feel a responsibility to ensure the survival of the human race.  Despite there being 7 billion people on the planet, one bad flu season could drive us to extinction.

[Ohf]

Despite there being 7 billion people on the planet, one bad flu season could drive us to extinction.

Well—I'd say one really juicy flu season could save us from extinction. But that's an entirely different topic ...

[Redball]

Luckily for the human race, most of us who become parents, even if we weren't sure about the whole thing, do a reasonably good job. My daughter, now 40, might have good reason to disagree, but only in part of her childhood.

[Bluesummers]

... but you understand that I was kidding? 

Um...oh. Ohh...yeah, my mind is in safe mode right now. Certain humorous functions have been disabled until reboot occurs.

Well—I'd say one really juicy flu season could save us from extinction. But that's an entirely different topic ...

Dr. Robert Neville would tend to agree with you, up to a certain point in the population drop...

[Soulsynger]

Well... in Germany most people decide to be against having a child for monetary and financial reasons. As it stands now the wish to procreate is immediately accompanied by the fear for one's own existence and diametrically opposite to the need for a safe income and a stable life standart.
For many it's just "have a child or be relatively wealthy?"

I agree with the OP in that I, too, am having a hard time understanding how "they are messy" can be someone's sole reason for not having kids who is usually not that germophobic or "mess-o-phobic" (that's not a word now is it?)

For me, I once looked forward to having children.  At university I volunteered to help out at the Kidds' Klub.  It had about 20x 3-9 year olds (they were the children of other students and the club existed to give their parents a break).  Usually there were 4-5 of us on duty and I did what I could to encourage the quiet ones to take part in activities we had. 

One day there was only 2 of us on duty and that afternoon has put me off children for the rest of my life!  It was quite simple: you blinked, there was a fight.  We were run ragged just trying to keep order.  The children probably didn't have much fun.

I feel you. But funny enough for many people this point of view changes drastically when it's not just "a" child but "your" child.


Personally, the chance to have a child was recently snagged away from me in a horrible manner. But I really want to care for a child some day. If only to prove to myself I can do a better job at it than my parents. (not an easy task mind you, they were pretty good with only a few shortcomings)

[techkid]

Some people have a neurological need for the structure and predictability that children are so well designed for destroying.

This,

Fear. 

Fear that I could possibly screw up the life of another human being - without trying.

That's why I'm sans children.

this,

I'm afraid of becoming my parents, in trying to raise my own child...hence the fear. Not hate...just uncertainty.

and this, are pretty much my reasons for not wanting kids of my own. I have troubles maintaining my own sense of "normality", and my near-obsessiveness to structure and regularity are not a great place to have any children around (although I am going to be working on this soon enough).

Do I want children (read: do I want to be responsible for a life not my own, that needs and demands basically constant attention and care) now? No, not in my current state of mental and financial health (slightly skewed, and damn-near broke respectively). If I can get my shit together on both fronts, then I might upgrade my stance to "maybe".

[pwhodges]

Erm, shouldn't this thread be merged with the one in DISCUSS?

I don't see the need; this thread has its own identity, and is not an argument-based discussion.  It could be in Chatter, perhaps, but it arose from the comic and can as well stay here (even though we no longer have a barrier between the forums, some people don't explore as much as others).

[Barmymoo]

My two parenting tips which I hope and intend to employ when I parent my own children are: remember you are aiming to raise an adult, not a child, and be consistent. The former leads into things like "will this remain cute when they are 13? 23? 53?" and if the answer is no, deal with it now while they're still malleable, and the latter expands into things such as "if you're going to draw a line in the sand, enforce it - if you say "come here" and they do not, go and get them, and bring them to "here". Don't teach them to disobey".

It is, however, far easier to parent in theory, or part-time, than in practice. I do admit to some trepidation about full-time responsibility for a tiny person, but I hope that having spent at least a decade thinking about and practising it, it'll be easier than just plunging in there without a clue.

[Carl-E]

...be consistent...expands into things such as "if you're going to draw a line in the sand, enforce it - if you say "come here" and they do not, go and get them, and bring them to "here". Don't teach them to disobey".

 

That really works well when they are smaller and weaker than you.  There comes a point when they are not... and it's about the same time as a nasty rebellious streak can set in that all the training in the world won't ameliorate.  This is what leads so many parents to use extremely negative pressures on their teen children (they haven't adapted to a new technique yet) which leads (probably) to most of the issues people have with their otherwise good parents. 

I was sneaky.  This was partly because I loved my parents and didn't want them hurt/disappointed when they found out about the things I was doing, but mostly because I just wanted some freedom, and this seemed to be an easy way to take it.  The few rebellious things I did that my parents did find out about led to a lot of trouble, but physical coercion had to stop pretty early on (though the threat of it lingered effectively for years...)

Then the cycle repeats - one of my daughters is extraordinarily sneaky... and it wasn't the one I expected, the one who seems to think like I do.  Turns out they both do, but only one of them can hide it! 

[sitnspin]

In addition to  my rather poor experience as a child (I was "raised" by two selfish and neglectful people who barely acknowledged my existence for most of my childhood),  I have severe chemical imbalances that I am only able to maintain control over through a well-established sleep and meditation schedule and keeping my stress levels relatively low. Not only would a child make that all but impossible to maintain, I wouldn't want to risk passing on my illness.  Add to that my views on overpopulation and there are plenty of reasons for me to not want kids.

What dislike I do have for kids is primarily based on my experience of being one and the interactions I had with others, PTSD is a pretty terrible thing to deal with as a child (and into adulthood).

[Barmymoo]

 

That really works well when they are smaller and weaker than you.  There comes a point when they are not...

Oh sure, I'm talking about toddlers here. Once you hit the stage where they're bigger than you, or just nearly as big, then new tactics are better. Conveniently, the too-big-to-carry stage generally coincides with the old-enough-to-reason-abstractly stage, and things like curfews and loss of privileges actually work. You tell a two year old "if you do x, you won't get y" and they'll do x, and then scream and scream for y.

[sitnspin]

Parenting: The only job you're not allowed to just quit.

Some people still do, though.

Others just slack off and pay others do the job for them.

[nekowafer]

I don't want kids right now. I don't believe that I will ever want kids, but I know that things can change my mind about other things. I have had surgery to prevent me from ever birthing children. Voluntary and much-wanted surgery. But I do know that if I decide down the line that I want kids, I would much rather adopt. I have so many reasons for not wanting children in general, or not wanting them of my own blood, at the least. Most have been listed here already.

But it really doesn't matter. Who cares why someone else doesn't want kids? The fact is that they don't. There will be no lives ruined by the decision to not have kids. Some people will make up a reason just to have one beyond "I don't want them." Not having the money, while a perfectly valid reason, is one that many people use. Yes, this can change, overpopulation could, theoretically, change, all these reasons can change. But it is a decision that belongs to each person, and no one should forcefully try to change their mind about it.

So you think that someone's reason not to have kids is selfish - if that were actually the case, do you want a selfish person having a kid? Or immature, or any of the 'bad' things people say about those that decide against kids?

There's also no reason to get on anyone for their dislike of children. I like them up until the point that they can speak sentences; this is where I get nervous and can no longer deal with them confidently. That's my own decision, I certainly don't hate kids older than that, I just don't want to be around them, if I can avoid it.

[ackblom12]

The only thing more irritating than /r/childfree is being asked to justify why you don't want children.

[Carl-E]

The only thing more irritating than /r/childfree is being asked to justify why you don't want children.

I think I'd ask a person who stated that they don't want children why, but not to justify themselves - I'm just curious about their reasoning. 



Then I'll probably agree with them, because most reasons I've ever heard not to have kids are pretty damn good reasons. 








Didn't stop me, though. 

[idontunderstand]

I wouldn't be curious at all by someone saying "I don't want kids" or "I can't right now", but saying that you never want kids, ever, and going as far as getting surgery done to ensure you never get one even by mistake, is curious to me. They're little kids. You used to be one. They're not evil little imps. I'm not offended by it or anything, please note that, and I respect that people may be in situations which may never change, which may prevent them from ever having kids. Someone with OCD as bad as, say, Hanners, probably isn't suited for having kids and I could completely understand her saying she doesn't want them, ever.

So, not offended and I don't demand an explanation. I just don't understand it.

(but that's my name after all)

[nekowafer]

I understand that I was once a kid, and I have no problem with kids overall. I just know that I never, ever ever ever, want to carry/birth a child.

If anyone is interested in reasons, well, I've had many health issues. Many of which are directly connected to my reproductive organs. But even if that weren't the case, being pregnant is really fucking difficult in so many ways. Besides the obvious, you'd be the center of attention, people would touch you, and you'd have to see doctors who would stick their hands up your cooch far too often.

And even besides those reasons, my family has a terrible history of diabetes, obesity, depression, anxiety, so on and so forth. I wouldn't want to make another kid go through what I have.

[Carl-E]

And in all honesty, I have to agree with everything Neko has said.  Both the health issues (thought that's pretty much a dice roll, and people are more optimistic than they should be about rolling dice), and I can vouch for the thing about being pregnant. 

In the ninth month of my younger daughter's pregnancy, my wife (who carried a 10-lb fetus WAAAAAY out front), I made her a large button that answered everyone's first two questions;

1) Yes, I'm still pregnant. 

2) No, it's not twins. 

On the way to the scheduled caesarian, we stopped at the store so she could pick up a crossword puzzle book for during recovery, and the clerk asked, "Honey, when are you having that baby?"

My wife looked at the clock, and said, "In about an hour and a half."

[idontunderstand]

It's perfectly understandable reasons. However...

Saying you don't want kids EVER is a bit like predicting the future to me. In a negative way. "I will never be a healthy person enough to have a kid". I understand someone may have chronic problems which prevent them but not all problems are impossible to work out.

I dunno, I guess it's just me but I don't think you should narrow down your opportunities so early in life as most of us are. We have pretty scarce opportunities as it is already.. I guess.

[Carl-E]

Opinions / desires change over time.  One of the reasons that, unless you have severe health issues like Neko did, you wouldn't necessarily want to do anything irreversible.  But you should definitely respect your desires, and those of others as much as possible.  If you don't want kids for any reason, that's good enough, and people should respect that. 


Doesn't stop those of us who've had kids from sharing the grossest and most disconcerting things that happen with those of you who are easily squicked - we need to get our entertainment somewhere...

[de_la_Nae]

I like children!

Like hell I want any of my own though. I'll probably be sterile anyway before too long for unrelated reasons, so...

Fatalism aside there's no way I'll ever ever EEEVVVEEEERRR want to actively seek a child for myself while being on my own. If/when I have vaguely stable companionship it can be on the table. Maybe adoption, because fuck my genes.

Edit: I've helped raise baby/toddler/child cousins. I have some experience across the board with all the lovely day-to-day stuff in caring for a human child. I'm sure that it being 'my own' would change my opinion a little, but that knowledge does not change my opinion enough at this time.

It just seems like this is absurdly insular existence.

No worries. I don't understand why someone would want more than one or two kids tops, seems like an absurdly stressful existence that would only lead to neglect and abuse, but some people seem to pull it off. So whatever I guess.

Some people have a neurological need for the structure and predictability that children are so well designed for destroying.

^^^^

[idontunderstand]

Carl-E: Yeah, that's a better way of putting it. As a person I'm generally trying to keep my options open, not getting too radical. Maybe that just means I'm a scared of changing or something. But it's the way I am.

And I completely respect that anyone wouldn't want to have children, I eh just don't get it. But I don't have to.

[ackblom12]

If when I had insurance, the company had deemed vasectomys to be worthy of covering, I absolutely would have gotten one in a goddamn heartbeat. Still would.

I realize no one here is saying this, but the attitude that was brought up earlier, that not having children was selfish, I find hilarious considering how incredibly selfish the choice to have children can be. Maintaining your family legacy, having immortality in some fashion, assuming you raising a child will make the world a better place, to have an accessory, to do God's work etc etc.

I also don't understand thinking that stories about children being gross are gross though. This may be colored a bit by having slaughtered animals and helping raise several nieces and nephews. Maybe with a bit of my modification fascination added as well. Children ARE gross, but the human body is pretty gross in general. Gross and fascinating.

[Carl-E]

Like I said, it's only entertaining when the people listening are squickable. 

You, sir, are far from squickable! 

[Barmymoo]

idontunderstand, women at least can have health issues which guarantee that having children is out the question. I have a friend whose uterus is backwards, for instance (or it was - I think she's had it removed now). If she bore the child she found she was carrying at sixteen, she would have died. That isn't a situation for optimism, it's a situation for termination and hysterectomy.

[idontunderstand]

I know about issues like that, that's not what I'm getting at. If she doesn't have a uterus, and this sounds harsh no matter how I say it, she doesn't have a choice anyway, does she? I'm talking about people who have the ability and opportunity, but still say that they will never, ever, take advantage of it.

[ackblom12]

I think the problem there is you assume it's considered an advantage to the people involved. Also, removing the oppurtunity to have a biological child does not remove the possibility of adopting. It's a lot more of a pain in the ass as far as bureaucracy goes and can be more of a problem depending on if you are a minority, non-christian, of a non upper middle class socio economic status etc etc, but it's arguably a much better thing to be doing.

[nekowafer]

It definitely seems like you're saying, "why would someone want to give up this wonderful thing forever?" I understand those people who think that having a kid is a wonderful thing, and that's fine. They can have all the kids they want, in my opinion. I don't consider it to be such a wonderful thing, for many reasons.

[Carl-E]

I suppose one way to look at it is the old "biological imperative" thing - as an individual, the imperative is to live, and as a species, it's to procreate and keep the species going.  Why waste this function, when it is  (very arguably) the only thing we've been built to do? 


Of course, the argument's moot - we've been sooo far past biology for so long... and we've become a dangerously successful race because of it.  Denying biology should be an option. 

[idontunderstand]

It definitely seems like you're saying, "why would someone want to give up this wonderful thing forever?"

I'm not saying anything quite that stupid but I guess the gist of it is the same.

I admit I hadn't thought of adopting, though. A fair point.