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Author Topic: What's So Terrible About Kids?  (Read 23048 times)

sitnspin

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #100 on: 09 Jan 2013, 08:08 »

I know what you're saying, I just feel it's a narrow perspective. "Very little justification", what, I need a justification to have children, but you don't need one to not have one? If we're not free to do what we want with our bodies, our society is not worth saving and we can just give it all up right now.

Does NOT performing an action require justification? Not unless it is a mandatory action or if not performing it would cause harm. I would say one needs justification to not call 911 in an emergency, but no justification would be required to not go to McDonald's for lunch.
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Cambyses

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #101 on: 09 Jan 2013, 09:10 »

If the goal is the happiness of all humans, then we should bring our numbers down in the most humane way possible: have less kids or no kids, and adopt. While I understand that it's a very difficult process to adopt, it is much more humane than increasing the world's population and leaving those other kids to not find homes. One thing I agree on is that bringing population down by killing people who have already been born is not the answer, nor is trying to decrease the birth rate through laws, as in China, where the result is a high rate of female infanticide. It would have to be something that most of society would have to agree to do voluntarily. This would require a change in the culture, which is never an easy task, as cognitive bias makes the human mind extraordinarily difficult to change.

An adopted child will not love you less than a biological one, and hopefully you will not love them less. They may not have your DNA, but that has very little to do with how someone will turn out, compared to upbringing.
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DSL

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #102 on: 09 Jan 2013, 09:28 »

Also on a less serious note... with your logic, the best thing we could do right now is probably to go out and try to kill as many people as possible and then end our own consuming, dirty existence..  :mrgreen:


I do not disagree. One could make the case for it quite well. A sudden massive drop in the population of the species might be just what we need.

I take the proponents of such a measure seriously only if they volunteer to be on the receiving end. Most seem to want to be on the "giving" end -- and should be taken seriously only for as long as it takes to stop them.
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Bastion

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #103 on: 09 Jan 2013, 09:34 »

I do not have the patience or maternal instinct to raise a child. Even when I was younger I couldn't stand kids, and it's only gotten worse the older i've gotten. I see no reason to give birth to a child when there are already so many in the world. I would happily go and get sterilized if it were an option I could afford right now. Along with the fact that I do not want or like children very much, there is a slew of mental and physical health issues that run in my family that I see no reason to pass along to ANYONE. I refuse to give birth to a child with the same brand of crippling Social Anxiety that I suffer from. Giving birth is not a wonderful option that should never be taken off the table for some people. For some, it's just not something we want to do.

On top of that, my nana was a foster parent for most of my formative years. I decided early on that if, by some strange power, I did decide I wanted a child, I would adopt an older child. My play mates when I visited my nana were the babies of broken homes and junkies. They need love and understanding just as much as any newborn and would appreciate the chance to make something of themselves. I vividly remember one boy telling me how jealous he was of me having a mother around who cared what I did. That stuck with me.
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Thrudd

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #104 on: 09 Jan 2013, 09:47 »

"cognitive bias"? translated into real world terms in set theory - The selfish and The stupid - note there is some overlap.

Unfortunately the overlap is where a vast majority of humanities ills stem. :psyduck: People in general are stupid. people in larger numbers are insane morons with WMD.

The idea is applaudable where someone makes an informed decision not to procreate to help ease the stress of population growth on our planet instead of just selfish short term reasoning. Mind you everyone is selfish but it is overriding this selfishness that separates us from the reptiles that have a habit of consuming their own young, mates, each other.
Unfortunately the effective result is that their positive choice is negated in whole by those who do the opposite.

It is a classic example of  "The tragedy of the commons".  All it takes is one selfish gluteus maximus to spoil it for everyone else because there is no immediate, chop your tally-whacker off, consequences to not playing fair.

I suggest a general program of Sesame Street combined with aversion therapy [Guantanamo] for all, starting with those putting themselves up as leaders and working our way down to the common idiots.
 :angel: [kidding - or am I?]  :evil:
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idontunderstand

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #105 on: 09 Jan 2013, 10:22 »

But then we would lose our humanity. Is the future of the planet more important than humanity? Not too sure if I agree..
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Mr_Rose

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #106 on: 09 Jan 2013, 11:12 »

I've always wondered why when people complain about "losing {their} humanity" it most often seems, when one actually looks at what is to be lost, that the human traits that are most animal-like in action that are the ones actually being threatened with extinctionů  :psyduck:

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #107 on: 09 Jan 2013, 11:49 »

Empowering women may be all the cultural change that's needed. Women who control their own fertility seem to average many fewer kids than those who don't.
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Thrudd

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #108 on: 09 Jan 2013, 12:22 »

Yes that and decent healthcare for women.

Mind you for that to happen there would need to be a whole lot of crotch kicking involved in the meantime.
Some nation states would have to get a little religion and a whole lot more would need to loose theirs.

We don't want the Mongol solution to the problem do we?  :psyduck:
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Bluesummers

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #109 on: 09 Jan 2013, 14:35 »

We don't want the Mongol solution to the problem do we?  :psyduck:

The Mongol solution, or the Mongol solution?
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Cambyses

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #110 on: 09 Jan 2013, 16:28 »

Quote
But then we would lose our humanity. Is the future of the planet more important than humanity?

I'm not really sure what you mean here. How would this necessarily make us lose our "humanity?" It wouldn't stop us from having empathy, or any of the other positive human traits. And as for a dichotomy between "humanity" and the earth, I think it's not an either/or situation. We can't survive without the planet, it's the only place we have to live, the resources it has are all we have to live on for the rest of our life as a species. When it goes, we go with it. Bringing our numbers down in the most humane way possible is in our interest as a species. We have too many humans living on this planet as it is for it to be able to support us indefinitely. Even if our population quits growing and stabilizes, at our current numbers and rate of consumption it's still only a matter of time before we use up all of our resources and our civilization crashes and burns.

If we want our descendents 100 years from now to be anything other than ragged, malnourished post-apocalyptic hobos waiting to die on a ruined planet, we need to take a multi-leveled approach, and having fewer children or choosing to adopt in stead would have to be part of it, along with developing green technologies, somehow reforming the economy and our personal habits so that we don't waste such sickening quantities of food, water and other resources, and perhaps not driving everywhere in colossal military-inspired steel fortresses that pound down oceans of gas like they're trying to impress their friends.
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ackblom12

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #111 on: 09 Jan 2013, 16:36 »

If we survive past this century, Earth won't be the only place we'll be living.

Doesn't change the fact that the rest of your post is perfectly accurate.
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pwhodges

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #112 on: 09 Jan 2013, 17:50 »

If we survive past this century, Earth won't be the only place we'll be living.

There's nothing like optimism!

Realistically, some predictions are far short of what we achieve, but others turn out to be pie in the sky.
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Welu

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #114 on: 09 Jan 2013, 18:28 »

I know what you're saying, I just feel it's a narrow perspective. "Very little justification", what, I need a justification to have children, but you don't need one to not have one? If we're not free to do what we want with our bodies, our society is not worth saving and we can just give it all up right now.

A little bit late and someone already said about justifying not doing something but I feel a big point here is in a way, yes it's your body and do what you like with it. Although having a child makes this whole other person that's effected by your choice and had no say in their creation. Then you can get into creating a person means creating something that will continue to cause effects on a small and possibly large scale for their entire existence. Not even in terms of carbon footprint, just them meeting people or taking up a seat in a school. So it definitely would need more justification than, "Just because." Compared to not having a child, "Just because." is less consequential since there's nothing, except yourself and possibly some family/friends/partner's emotions being effected.

ackblom12

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #115 on: 09 Jan 2013, 18:45 »

There's nothing like optimism!

Realistically, some predictions are far short of what we achieve, but others turn out to be pie in the sky.

Well, if we survive I don't think it's terribly optimistic, just inevitable. If we don't make it to the end of the century we're either going to be on our way to extinction or at the very least will have dropped below a point in civilization we won't be able to recover from.
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Bluesummers

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #116 on: 09 Jan 2013, 20:57 »

There's nothing like optimism!

Realistically, some predictions are far short of what we achieve, but others turn out to be pie in the sky.

Well, if we survive I don't think it's terribly optimistic, just inevitable. If we don't make it to the end of the century we're either going to be on our way to extinction or at the very least will have dropped below a point in civilization we won't be able to recover from.
Start yer doomsday prepping while sales last, folks! (Yeah, that's by backup plan...though I haven't really gotten started with it)
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idontunderstand

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #117 on: 10 Jan 2013, 02:56 »

Quote
But then we would lose our humanity. Is the future of the planet more important than humanity?

I'm not really sure what you mean here. How would this necessarily make us lose our "humanity?"

No, that post was in response to what sitnspin wrote. I fucked up and forgot to quote. Sorry.

I know what you're saying, I just feel it's a narrow perspective. "Very little justification", what, I need a justification to have children, but you don't need one to not have one? If we're not free to do what we want with our bodies, our society is not worth saving and we can just give it all up right now.

Does NOT performing an action require justification? Not unless it is a mandatory action or if not performing it would cause harm. I would say one needs justification to not call 911 in an emergency, but no justification would be required to not go to McDonald's for lunch.

Yes, there are plenty of situations where NOT performing an action could require a justification. That's not the point, however, I'm just saying that I shouldn't be required to justify something that's so personal and so invariably connected to what I choose to do with my body (and the body of the to-be-mother of the child), which is the same reason you are not required to justify NOT doing it.
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Welu

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #118 on: 10 Jan 2013, 03:22 »

I'm not entirely sure if you mean justify something, as in explaining to a particular person who asks or if you mean no reason is needed for either choice. The first scenario I totally agree you don't have to justify anything to them because it's your business but the second, I think more reason is needed for having a child than just, "Why not?"
Not saying that's what you specifically are saying, just talking generally.

idontunderstand

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #119 on: 10 Jan 2013, 08:11 »

Yeah, I meant the first. Of course you should carefully consider if you want a child or not.
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Thrudd

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #120 on: 11 Jan 2013, 06:11 »

I think the discussion is seemingly, either on purpose or just a consequence of the point of view taken, missing something.
Responsibility.
Not just to self or in some grandiose yet wishy washy something or other about the planet being better off.
[note: the planet will get along just fine without us and cares about us just as much as it did for the trilobites in the past]

There are other responsibilities as well,  a few were touched on in passing and then brushed aside as inconsequential.
Family and friends for one but then community as the other and then there is the big one that the vast majority never think about even in passing, the human race as a whole.
That last one only a very rare few think about, have a positive impact on and are recognized only after their passing for the most part, if at all.


/Begin Tangent
Having children is genetic selfishness.
Not having children and not doing anything for ANYONE is personal selfishness, plain and simple.

>> Not having children is not selfish in and of itself. <<

The reasoning and actions around that decision can and from some of the arguments presented here, are selfish.
/End Tangent
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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #121 on: 11 Jan 2013, 10:10 »

For what it's worth, a single average American child will need the following energy sources in their lifetime (http://www.mii.org/pdfs/baby.pdf):

6.29 million ft^3 of natural gas
504,192 lbs of coal
72,556 gallons of petroleum

Compared to the estimated reserves, that looks fine, but remember, that's adding to the existing consumption, and almost all of that is nonrenewable!

It's unfair to the world to bring a kid into it.

Also, given the geopolitical issues in this world, it's unfair to the kid to forcibly bring it into the world.

And, in my personal case, I know my fuse is WAY too short to ever raise a kid. I also just don't like kids, and have better things to do with my life.
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Finvara

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #122 on: 11 Jan 2013, 11:14 »

There's really nothing you can do with your life that's more valuable than raising the next generation. What important to remember is that if you're concerned about additional energy consumption or overpopulation, adoption doesn't make either of those any worse at all, it just makes a life better.

Not everybody has to go about it, but saying "not me, kids? never" makes a definite statement about your maturity.
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Thrudd

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Re: What's So Terrible About Kids?
« Reply #123 on: 11 Jan 2013, 11:21 »

Interesting statistics though most of those things listed are renewable and the non-renewable ones are predominantly towards the industrial infrastructure.

Numbers Never Lie
Science and Engineering
Then there's Marketing

It may seem crazy but manufacturing will be as wasteful and messy as they can get away with as long as it is more profitable that way in the very short term.  :psyduck: talk about your stone-age mentality on a global scale.  :psyduck:

As for the future and kids ..... you could still be a responsible person and make the world, or your corner of it, better for everyone else  ..... Challenging eh? [Shrek voice]
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A good pun is it's own reword.
There is a difference between spare parts, extra parts and left over parts.

The Venn diagram  for Common Sense and Good Sense has very little, if any, overlap.
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