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Poll

Get Me To The Church On Time...

...Marigold!
- 10 (11.2%)
...Claire!
- 38 (42.7%)
...Emily!
- 10 (11.2%)
...Tai?
- 2 (2.2%)
...PINTSIZE?!?!?
- 3 (3.4%)
...Harriet?!?!??!?!??!?!?
- 2 (2.2%)
...Someone Else?
- 8 (9%)
WAFFLES!
- 16 (18%)

Total Members Voted: 79


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Author Topic: WCDT: 2377-2381 (4-8 February, 2013) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread  (Read 152182 times)

Delator

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Oh that's right, I forgot...somewhere between #461 and #1820 Marten's mom morphed into the most annoying bitch EVER.
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Lubricus

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Besides, we know that Steve is more Claire's type.

Not really, all we know is that she likes Steve's BODY.
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Asterus

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On a somewhat different point:
Although this is a webcomic and we never really see characters blinking, I got the impression Ms. Reed spent that entire conversation with her eyes wide open, unblinking. Did anyone else?
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jwhouk

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Sadly, I can relate to this comic.

And Veronica just echoed Jim's "perfect age to start breeding" line. :psyduck:

Note: Next time Claire gets nervous or embarrassed, check if she clutches at her hair like she is in panel 4. It'd be interesting, both for reference and for appreciating Jeph's hard work, to try and work out all the characters' particular mannerisms when they get nervous. So far, the only other one I can think of is Hanners clenching her hands in her lap (which I'm pretty sure I've also seen Dora do once or twice).

Marten's hand to the back of his head. C'mon, do you have to go re-read the entire archive?
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jwhouk

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And it's strange, but when I read that dialogue (and the alternate version posted above), I thought, "Wow, Veronica is three sheets to the wind right now."
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StevenC

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How much does it cost up there? Serious question, because in a place where it seems to be non-chalantly legal, yet neither jacked up by cartels nor taxed by the government, I wonder about its monetary value.
We went on a school trip to the netherlands once. And of course some of us bought stuff. I think it was ~5 Euro for one joint in Amsterdam. Or maybe he got more than one I can't remember.
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Madmartigan

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Nothing worse than a drunk dominatrix mother trying to set you up with your friends.

Awkward level 1000.

Man, having her as a mom would suck.  Yea, I said it.  The dominatrix persona has probably bled into her entire being.  Absolute creepy nightmare to introduce ANY girl to her. 
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Sidhekin

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Don't get me wrong – it's Jeph's comic, I'm just along for the ride and the occasional commentary  – but I preferred the first version.  Veronica concerned about grandbabies, I can see.  Veronica concerned about calm and books, not so much.  There was more depth – more layers – to the first version.  And, um, (oh boy) I've rather come to enjoy webcomickers being cruel to their characters.   But if Jeph decides to pull his punches, that may be my regret, but his decision to make.
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xAmilli0n

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It's funny, as soon as I saw on twitter Marten's mom was going to be in this strip, I just had a feeling it was going to go something like what we got. 

I actually got a chance to see the original before it was edited.  I didn't see anything wrong with it, but I get why Jeph decided to edit it.

On a somewhat different point:
Although this is a webcomic and we never really see characters blinking, I got the impression Ms. Reed spent that entire conversation with her eyes wide open, unblinking. Did anyone else?

You too, huh?  :-D
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cesium133

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Oh that's right, I forgot...somewhere between #461 and #1820 Marten's mom morphed into the most annoying bitch EVER.
Oh, go easy on her. For as much embarrassment as kids provide their parents, it's only natural that as the kids age, the parents will try to embarrass their kids... My dad liked to try to embarrass me by trying to hook me up with girls similarly to what Marten's mom is trying to do in the current comic and in comic 1821.
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blacksinow

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Honestly speaking, it isn't so much that she is being a bitch. Marten's mom is no different then any other. He's single right now, and c'mon... Every parent gets grand baby urges... As a dominatrix, she's naturally inclined to be a bit more aggressive then other women, to boot.
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She seems to have been a bit of a paradox as a mother. She was considerate and nurturing enough to invent and knit the Worry Hat, for example.
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Redball

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As the child approaches adolescence, it's the parent's role to mortify the kid thoroughly and often. Years later, I offer my 40-year-old daughter raspberry mer-lot, just out of habit. I don't think she bothers to roll her eyes.
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rmo

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I have nothing against Claire's whole 'special circumstances,' its interesting to see writers go to new locales and experiment with different types of characters. However I have 2 problems.

1. (personal) I disliked Claire's character from the start. She's really annoying and ditzy. So much so all comedic value is drained out of her. This is a personal beef, and it's jephs artistic judgement, but I have the feeling she's the karmic balance for the awesome that is tai.
2. Hannelore getting sick was weak. Hanners is a great character who keeps getting phased out, now that she's coming out of her shell I want to see the fun kept can have with her stumbling into normality.

I personally can see where Martin mom can be wierd and annoying at times, but I feel like Clair being in that comic is nowhere near as funny if it was Hanners. I'm still going to read this comic like its made of meth, but I think that Claire is a blunder.
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Method of Madness

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Marten's mom has already met Hanners. Also, if anyone did that to Hanners, I don't think she'd handle it very well. Also, regarding the change...is Marten anywhere close to being ready to having kids (assuming he ever wants them)?
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bhtooefr

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But, this is a classic trope (it's a link discussing a trope, you don't get to complain if it leads to somewhere you don't want it to lead), and you'll notice that it's in the "Older Than Feudalism" category.

And, in many applications of that trope (including how it manifests in real life), the parents don't have any respect for their child's opinion on having children.
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Welcome, new person!

I think I see your point, but is "ditzy" really the right word? She's got a problem with assuming the worst too quickly, but she's focused and ambitious, and a good enough judge of character to realize that Marten was a safe person to tell about her trans history.
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westrim

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Oh that's right, I forgot...somewhere between #461 and #1820 Marten's mom morphed into the most annoying bitch EVER.
Oh, go easy on her. For as much embarrassment as kids provide their parents, it's only natural that as the kids age, the parents will try to embarrass their kids... My dad liked to try to embarrass me by trying to hook me up with girls similarly to what Marten's mom is trying to do in the current comic and in comic 1821.
I mostly agree with Delator. There is embarrassment, and then there is callousness. What she did less than a week after a painful breakup was callous. If she did it before or a few months later, what she did would be amusing embarrassment, but it was directly after a painful and divisive experience. We've only seen this one strip, so I'll reserve judgment for now. Also, grandbaby yearning is funny.
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celticgeek

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Do you suppose Veronica wants grandchildren for the same reason Auntie Mame wanted them?

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ScoutX

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I can't wait for tomorrow's awkward "You're really nice but I'm not your type" speech. I'm just not sure whose mouth it will come out of. Heeheehee...

Haha, yeah. My money is on Martin trying to apologize for his mom, Claire interrupting him and awkwardly letting him down gently even though she doesn't have to, then probably something about Steve's butt.

Though, I didn't think Claire could possibly go on the trip, so what do I know.
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Barmymoo

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Ah, the fact that the strip was changed explains the confusing title. Did the artwork change too? It seemed like it was maybe a little rushed - still good, but not the usual style.
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

xAmilli0n

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Oh that's right, I forgot...somewhere between #461 and #1820 Marten's mom morphed into the most annoying bitch EVER.
Oh, go easy on her. For as much embarrassment as kids provide their parents, it's only natural that as the kids age, the parents will try to embarrass their kids... My dad liked to try to embarrass me by trying to hook me up with girls similarly to what Marten's mom is trying to do in the current comic and in comic 1821.
I mostly agree with Delator. There is embarrassment, and then there is callousness. What she did less than a week after a painful breakup was callous. If she did it before or a few months later, what she did would be amusing embarrassment, but it was directly after a painful and divisive experience. We've only seen this one strip, so I'll reserve judgment for now. Also, grandbaby yearning is funny.

I disagree.  I always saw it as her having fun embarrassing her kid, even after the breakup.  Maybe Marten wasn't in the mood for it, but I don't think it was done out of malice.
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Lubricus

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Ah, the fact that the strip was changed explains the confusing title. Did the artwork change too? It seemed like it was maybe a little rushed - still good, but not the usual style.

The art is the same, Jeph only changed some of the text.
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calmcalamity

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I saw the original last night, and while I understand why Jacques felt like he needed to edit rewrite, I frankly don't feel it was necessary and has taken away from some of the context for whatever follows and was a better joke.

1. The title "Yougenics" no longer makes sense.

2. While the "Claire can't have kids" thing did cross my mind, it was a side thought, and in no way did I believe it to be the punchline. My first and primary thought was, "Wow, what is Marten's mom doing? What the...She's a bit off her nut, isn't she. The wedding must be getting to her, bad." It sets up that Veronica is going a bit loopy at the moment.

3. The reason I don't feel the current rewrite version is as good is because it's essentially a retelling of the same joke from the break-up arc. More importantly because it's was pre-established that Veronica is like that in general, it gives us a baseline. When comparing the original version, where she's coming out swing'n for grandchildren, to the "boyfriend material" thing it seems pretty tame and not at all out there. It's that she's essentially saying "I want you and my son to have children, tonight!" that is far enough from the norm that it's comedic and give's us an idea for just how off base Veronica's feeling right now.

I realize that this is essentially me telling Jeph how to do his art, and their's been enough of that going around that I don't wanna pile on, but I mean this only as constructive criticism, nothing more. For the most part I highly respect everything Mr. Jacques has done and how far he's come, and that he has every right to tell me and every other "fan" to kindly fuck off if we don't appreciate it, but I felt that because the re-edit was made because he was afraid of offending or hurting others I needed to speak my piece.

P.S.
WARNING, SHIPPING ACCIDENT AHEAD
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 16:27 by calmcalamity »
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Econoclast

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That was weak. I much preferred the original strip. Not only did it pave the way for some really awesome development for Claire (an otherwise ditzy and irritating ancillary character), but it would've led to some truly compelling conflict between Marten, his mother, and Claire over a very real issue that transgendered women face. I thought the original had the potential to break new ground in the comic and really demonstrate the humanity of people in these situations. Instead, Jeph opted for the easy way out rather than being ballsy and taking risks. Sure, we've progressed enough that we can have a transgendered character, but god forbid we highlight the issues that transgendered people face -- somebody might get offended.

I can't say I blame Jeph for not wanting to take the risk. After all, this comic is his bread and butter and offending people means reduced readership, which means less money in his pocket. So while I disagree with the change as an artist, I understand the change as a professional. Instead, I blame the easily offended, politically-correct thugs who take a big, steamy dump all over artistic integrity.
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K1dmor

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 Why people have so much hate? And why does Jeph have to face that shit?

 
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 15:18 by K1dmor »
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idontunderstand

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I guess because they feel they own the comic, and that Jeph owes them something. I really dunno though, I don't even want to understand it because fuck those people.
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Overkillengine

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People can be strange. It's a webcomic. Scads of them abound upon the interwebz. If you don't like something in it, either handle it or move the fuck on to another one.
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pwhodges

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I can't say I blame Jeph for not wanting to take the risk. After all, this comic is his bread and butter and offending people means reduced readership, which means less money in his pocket. So while I disagree with the change as an artist, I understand the change as a professional.

Remember also that Jeph must be aware of his own psychological fragility, and may be consciously trying to avoid triggering the kind of comment that got to him so badly in the autumn.  I doubt that the readership count was his first thought when he made the change.
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pwhodges

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Everyone seems to be either neutral or for "Maire", but where's the Clen/Svaire's?

Remember, we don't allow this kind of shipping here (apart from that, those are the most unsatisfactory portmanteaus I've seen in a while).
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"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

jwhouk

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After seeing those posts, I wouldn't blame Jeph for writing Claire out of the strip completely. Easier on his sanity.

And I wouldn't blame Cristi for hiding any and all sharp objects for a few days.
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WAYF

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Marten's hand to the back of his head. C'mon, do you have to go re-read the entire archive?

Oh damnit, I knew I was forgetting a really obvious one. :P

And yes, let's all tell Jeph how he should and shouldn't write the comic. Because we all ~KNOW~ whether Claire and Marten should or shouldn't get together.

In a way, I think that sort of mirrors real life. You know what? If Marten and Claire really existed, they would do what they wanted regardless of what we want, because what we want doesn't matter.
Personally I don't mind, because it's not my relationship, and it's not my comic. If they do, fine. If they don't, fine.

Though I'm starting to suspect that the hateful emails Jeph receives are all coming from the same person...
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Arancaytar

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Why people have so much hate? And why does Jeph have to face that shit?

[image]

Now I kind of wish Jeph would do this (ie. the pairing) to spite those people.
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If Marten and Claire really existed, they would do what they wanted regardless of what we want, because what we want doesn't matter.

Lots of authors report that their characters act independently of authorial desires. Marten and Claire may well do whatever they want regardless of what Jeph wants.

Marten is unlikely to want to do something unethical. We could get some interesting character development out of awkward conversations, though.
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calmcalamity

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Everyone seems to be either neutral or for "Maire", but where's the
(click to show/hide)

Remember, we don't allow this kind of shipping here (apart from that, those are the most unsatisfactory portmanteaus I've seen in a while).

My apologies (for the ship, not the portmanteau), it's been a while since I read the basic conduct and rules post and I don't often post, as is obvious. Also I kinda just skimmed past several of the earlier posts where people had been commenting on Veronica captaining the "Maire" ship and had taken them to be endorsements of said ship, but upon review have seen my mistake. It was really more a comment on that ship and reiterating my previously held position on
(click to show/hide)
and brought back into the comic than meant as a serious ship. I rarely ever pull that kinda shit, regardless of medium or topic.
Also I've been following Chloé C. (Batlesbo) alot, so it's hard not having it rub off a bit.

Once again, my apologies.
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Valdís

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After seeing those posts, I wouldn't blame Jeph for writing Claire out of the strip completely. Easier on his sanity.

Okay, that thought has legitimately upset me. That reactions to trans* people would be bad enough on someone non-trans to bully them out of continuing a fictional character.

Gods damnit..
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Kugai

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Nice to see some things haven't changed.

Ahhh Veronica, what would we do without ye.
















Sometimes I think Marten would like to find out.   :-D
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She seems to have been a bit of a paradox as a mother. She was considerate and nurturing enough to invent and knit the Worry Hat, for example.

There's nothing contradictory between loving your child, and wanting what's best for them, and thinking that what would be best is for you to make all of the decisions for them.  (Because you know what's best, of course, and they're clearly not capable of it, the poor fragile indecisive dear(s).)

My opinion from the previous visit - including the moment when Marten finally got fed up with it, managed to find something resembling a spine, and was promptly smacked down in front of all his friends - stands.   Veronica, whether it was entirely conscious or not, has done an excellent job of breaking Marten's spirit and ensuring that he will remain her obedient, pliable little boy forever.  Someone who will drift through life with no real goals or agency of his own, waiting for someone to tell him what to do.
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rmo

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' :evil:

My opinion from the previous visit - including the moment when Marten finally got fed up with it, managed to find something resembling a spine, and was promptly smacked down in front of all his friends - stands.   Veronica, whether it was entirely conscious or not, has done an excellent job of breaking Marten's spirit and ensuring that he will remain her obedient, pliable little boy forever.  Someone who will drift through life with no real goals or agency of his own, waiting for someone to tell him what to do.

And there is the reason why marten is so passive.
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de_la_Nae

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An interesting idea. I hadn't considered it in those terms, probably because, if we're thinking of and remembering the same scene, I rather did think he needed pulled out of it, even though he was wanting to curl up into himself. I should look at it again, and consider it again.

mustang6172

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1. How is threatening to stop reading QC the same as dictating how Jeph must write his comic?

2. Why is everone so in favor of changing art retroactively?


Never forget!
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henri bemis

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As I understand it, no one is in favor of changing art retroactively just for the fuck of it, but they are in favor of acknowledging that other people can be obnoxious, demanding assholes, and that Jeph may very understandably not want to deal with that shit right now.  If someone wants to stop reading QC, then they should stop reading QC.  No nasty emails required!  It's quite simple, really.

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Daphnaie

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As I understand it, no one is in favor of changing art retroactively just for the fuck of it, but they are in favor of acknowledging that other people can be obnoxious, demanding assholes, and that Jeph may very understandably not want to deal with that shit right now.  If someone wants to stop reading QC, then they should stop reading QC.  No nasty emails required!  It's quite simple, really.

Are you saying you think Jeph changed the strip because he didn't want to deal with people being obnoxious, demanding assholes about the original content?

Because that's not what happened at all. Go back and read Jeph's tumblr post.
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Carl-E

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' :evil:

My opinion from the previous visit - including the moment when Marten finally got fed up with it, managed to find something resembling a spine, and was promptly smacked down in front of all his friends - stands.   Veronica, whether it was entirely conscious or not, has done an excellent job of breaking Marten's spirit and ensuring that he will remain her obedient, pliable little boy forever.  Someone who will drift through life with no real goals or agency of his own, waiting for someone to tell him what to do.

And there is the reason why marten is so passive.

I think we've been here before...
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henri bemis

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Are you saying you think Jeph changed the strip because he didn't want to deal with people being obnoxious, demanding assholes about the original content?

Because that's not what happened at all. Go back and read Jeph's tumblr post.

No, I read the tumblr, and that's not what I meant at all (though rereading I know I wasn't entirely clear).  The 'obnoxious demanding assholes' bit was really more about the person who emailed him about refusing to read any more if Marten and Claire got together, and how even after revising the comic for the reasons he stated, he still gets shit for it.
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blacksinow

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I've to be honest about this, I kind've like Claire. She may be ditzy, but to be fair... she doesn't seem the type to allow her "situation" to control her like Dora, Faye, Marigold, and Hannelore. She is understandably normal, which is wierd if you consider this webcomic. And I just want to say... I totally knew Claire and Martin would end up in something like this at /some/ point.
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Carl-E

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OK, that's the third person on this page who's called Claire "ditzy".  Either you're all just jumping on the bandwagon, or, as Inigo Montoya once said...



Quote from: Merriam Webster
dit·zy
adjective \ˈdit-sē\
ditz·i·er or dits·i·er,dits·i·est
Definition:
eccentrically silly, giddy, or inane : dizzy


That describes Emily.  NOT Claire! 


Now, stop that! 
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When people try to speak a gut reaction, they end up talking out their ass.

cpflux

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Aww... but I liked the sly little double entendre of broody possibly meaning either Marten's mom thinking of the possible children or being unhappy about her ex-husband getting remarried.
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Method of Madness

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Re: changing the comic...if he'd changed it after the next comic had gone up, then I'd have a much bigger problem. That he did it as early as he did, it could be argued that the one he put up was an early draft that wasn't supposed to go up (even if it took him a few extra minutes to realize it).
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rmo

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Thanks for the link to the further discussion of martens relationship with his mom, I'm a long time reader but I haven't visited the forums before today.

I distinctly remember using Ditzy without reference to anyone else's description, but on further consideration 'inane' is a much better word than ditzy to describe Claire. Furthermore, you stop it, I'll say what I please.

I think the strip would have been way better with the original, but I can empathize with jeph on the flak he's getting by testing new characters with thier own unique qualities. I personally might dislike a character or 2, but I can see where he's coming from.
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