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[Masterpiece]

So I've been massively into "post-pc era" convertibles, namely the Surface, the Vaio Duo and all the similar devices. In my point of view, these things will be a huge thing, if not because of Microsofts huge push for the development of them.

I'd like to hear the opinions of you guys in the forum. Have you ever used a convertible laptop? Is there a place for laptops in todays ecosystem? What do you think of product x?
(and please don't make this into a fanboy flame war, I find it hard to contain myself at such things.)

Here's the beauty that started my obsession about convertibles:

Intels Cove Point Concept

[mtmerrick]

This is the way the world is headed, for sure.

My tablet (Iconia A500) took over from my PC for everything except gaming, music, and autocad. When I got my Galaxy Note II, it completely replaced my tablet. Let's face it, for most people a lightweight OS (I refuse to use the term mobile OS)  is all that's needed. This is evident by the popularity of ipads, android tablets,  chromebooks, ect.

For those of us advanced users who need something more,  we still have laptops. All in one PCs have been relegated to a niche market and desktops are all but dead outside the business world.

I am of the opinion that "Phablet" devices are the future. One device that does everything. And when you get home, dock it to your computer system,  giving it a boost in CPU and GPU power,  but still running the same OS off your single device.

Obviously we're a good ways off from that,  as the best x86 chip we can get in a phone right now is an Atom. But it's coming. There's a great Ubuntu concept I wanna show here, that illustrates my point perfectly. I'll find it in a bit.

In the meantime,  I do think a convertible laptop/tablet + smartphone is a great step in the right direction. Getting everything down to just two devices,  for those of us who need a "fully powered" OS.

[Masterpiece]

I like that "three screens and a cloud" idea that Microsoft is throwing around recently. The idea that the PC no longer holds your stuff but that it's merely a gateway to your content in the cloud. Some of that is already pulled off pretty nicely (the People hub in Windows Phone/Win 8, Music Pass), but it still feels like a concept that has not been implemented as good as it could be. I love the iCloud tabs idea that the Safari browser uses. Open one tab in a browser, and be able to continue browsing on that tab on your other device. That's "three screens and a cloud" pulled of nicely, for example.

I loved logging into a Win8 PC with my Microsoft account and to find that it had carried over some (if not most) of the settings. Then I frowned when I found out that it hadn't installed apps.

What do you think of the Asus PadPhone? That feels like a concept at most, and I'm not sure of its practicality. Also, this:

[mtmerrick]

I love the Padfone concept, and I'm bummed the Padfone 2 and PadFone Infinity lost the keyboard dock.



It would definitely be a product I would consider if it had the keyboard.


But im more a FonePad kinda guy myself.

(and no you would NEVER hold a 10" Tablet to your head )

[Masterpiece]

What do you think of the Cove Point design? It's what got me hooked on these sorts of devices in the first place.

[cesium133]

I like that "three screens and a cloud" idea that Microsoft is throwing around recently. The idea that the PC no longer holds your stuff but that it's merely a gateway to your content in the cloud.

I don't like the idea at all. If you keep your data "in the cloud" (i.e. on someone else's server), you're practically begging to lose your data at some point. Either they'll decide running the server is unprofitable and pull the plug, or a hurricane/earthquake/tornado will hit their data center, or someone will break into your account, or someone will decide they don't like what kind of data you have, etc. I much prefer to keep my data somewhere that I control, where I can make my own backups, and where nobody is snooping around in it. It's none of Google's business what's in my data (or, in this case, Microsoft's business). Thinking of that, I need to check on the lab fileserver's backups, so I'll cut this rant short.

[mtmerrick]

What do you think of the Cove Point design? It's what got me hooked on these sorts of devices in the first place.

absolutely gorgeous but not powerful enough for my needs - i find that no matter what i do my system always wants more GPU power, so a dedicated GPU (Nvidia plz) is a must (at least for me, personally)

for me, three screens is a bit different - in my ideal world my three "screens" would be a 7" android tablet with cellular/phone connectivity (or maybe the galaxy mega 6.3, hmm (depends on how good the developer community is)), google glass. , and an ultrabook with kickass specs to be left at home most of the time.

though i have to say, a Note 2 + Razer Edge Pro is a DAMM intriguing combo as well.

[snalin]

I'm probably always going to need a powerful laptop or a desktop at work, as I'm a software developer. So it might be that skews my priorities a bit, but I don't really see myself getting anything more lightweight than a laptop (other than, of course, my smartphone) anytime soon. I don't really have any long travel times, so whenever I'm somewhere I need to access a device, I'm near a desk, either at my university or at home. Whenever I would use something smaller, I have a big screen and a big keyboard at hand.

If we get something like the "Phablet" mtmerrick is describing, then I'm probably going to get it, but I'd prefer to only be carrying one product at a time, so I think that'd be my phone, not a tablet.

[mtmerrick]

well, we already have phablets. note that this is not my word, because its awful. The galaxy note 2 is my current phone and the best productivity-oriented android phone ever made, largely due to the wacom stylus built in.

phablets inherently let you get more done simply because you can see more. this also makes them easier to use.

also, what if it was a tablet you could use AS a phone (say, with a bluetooth headset)?
because that changes things for a lot of people.

[bhtooefr]

I don't have a problem with the concept of the cloud as a central data repository that can also do some processing on that data, and can be accessed by all devices.

I just want the cloud to be a box in my apartment. (Which is why http://bhtooefr.org is hosted from said apartment.) It'd be nice to see something easier to administer for people who don't screw with computers as a hobby, but have privacy or data retention concerns with cloud services (have a simple config webpage, tell it to grab a service, and plop it on there, and it's ready to go and gets automatic security updates), but this works for some things for myself.

I'd also like some form of convergence - not necessarily everything being my phone connected to different displays, but ability to access the same programs (with UIs optimized for the different screen sizes and input methods) and data wherever I am, the big benefit of cloud services, is really nice.

[Masterpiece]

Cesium, I can definitely see why you're not trusting the "data in the cloud" idea, because I don't really do either. There is a quite nice alternative to it though: I host all my data on my home PC, and allow SkyDrive to access it, meaning that all my data are accessible from the cloud, but it still is physically located on one of my devices. I know there's always inherent security issues when you allow a web service access to your file system, but afaik that system is read-only and hasn't caused problems thus far. Having your own server would be a nice alternative, but I have no idea about hosting, so in my case that wouldn't work.

I wasn't really asking about power when I asked about the Cove Point design. It's just that, for me that design is the death of the laptop computer as we know it. Pulled of right, with sturdy hinges and a no compromise keyboard, I don't see how a laptop is any better, since the Cove Point convertibles do everything a laptop should do, but adds even better portability and more comfortable touch input. I've always felt touch input on a laptop is way too wobbly (as in, the screen always moves when you try to use touch.)

[mtmerrick]

not talking specs, just design, yes, i'm with you 100%. the cove point style slider is like the laptop 2.0

[Masterpiece]

and that's why I'm so in love with the Sony tablets. In my point of view, they're the only ones that pulled off that reference design properly. I mean, I've seen a similar Toshiba tablet convertible, but getting the keyboard to open was just a pain and I was afraid I was breaking the tablet, which is not a feeling you should get on a tablet, ever.
Last week I held an iPad Mini in my hands, and I have to say, the build quality on that thing is unsurpassed. Which makes me so pissed that it's basically impossible to perform basic work tasks on that device. Apple, get your shit together. iOS sucks so much right now...

edit: I saw an unacceptable grammar mistake and had to fix it. </grammar nazi>

[mtmerrick]

apple build quality is nice, yeah, but i'm just not feeling their new designs. the ipad mini, new ipods, ect... i just don't like how they feel in the hand. (same wiht the 4/4s, actually).

anything they have that's brushed aluminum tough is AMAZING to hold though. shame the software is shit.

what i find hilarious is anyone who makes metal devices other than apple (hell even apple sometimes) can't get the antennas right for the life of them. aluminum chassis block so many/so much of the radio frequencies its just not effective. except for apple's voodoo. i have no idea what they do to make it work.

though frankly i'd rather have a (textured?) soft touch finish, like the xperia ZL, or older motorola devices. that is just wonderful.



also, glossy superslick plastic needs to be banned for all electronics. its a fingerprint, smudge, scratch, scuff, and dust magnet, and it just feels cheap.

i cannot think of a single example where glossy is nicer than matte.

[bhtooefr]

Although, high quality laptops tend to have much better hinges, and don't wobble nearly as badly.

[pwhodges]

The reason my home desktop has a Xeon, 32GB of memory and 5TB of disks is that I have that much data, need to have that much in memory at once, and need to access and process it that fast.  Neither the cloud nor a tablet can approach the specs I require.

I also do a lot of portable computing using my iPhone, both locally, and using it as a window to my desktops or servers.  A tablet doesn't do for me because it doesn't go in my pocket, and therefore might not be to hand when I require.

So for me, tablets lose out from both directions!

[ankhtahr]

I'm skeptical about this kind of things. For mobile usage I like my Thinkpad, my smartphone and if I could afford it, I might add a 7" Tablet as well, but I don't think I could replace my notebook by a tablet or "phablet". I need a more powerful device than that, and couldn't live with using a that closed operating system exclusively. I think these OSes are not really suited for power intensive work cases.

And I could never live without a physical keyboard. Even mice/trackballs are still the best devices for some tasks.

And the excitement for "Cloud"-stuff I never shared. I don't see any advantage which is worth giving my data to a company. I have a small server at home (halfur.de), running a web server, a Zarafa server, and I'm contemplating running an Owncloud server as well. Zarafa is the server I use the most. It's an open source groupware server which offers iCal and Exchange compatible interfaces, so I sync my calendars and contacts with it.

[bhtooefr]

Of course, there's always some of the stealth tactical pants (usually intended for concealed carry or just weirdos (5.11's advertising is based around how many AR-15 magazines you can put in them, but it makes no sense to conceal AR-15 mags), but they're useful for other things too), and you might be able to fit a 7" tablet in those.

But that's adjusting one's wardrobe to the technology, which some may consider beyond the pale.

(Mind you, once I'm done losing weight, I might order myself a pair of the 5.11 covert cargos, see how good they are. I like the Wrangler Comfort Solutions khakis that I usually wear for work, but I can tell that longevity isn't their strong point (given that they're Wal-Mart-grade), and they're just normal khakis, no hidden compartments.)

Also, I set OwnCloud up, and was NOT impressed by it at all. CLUUUUNKY. When I've already got my choice of SMB/CIFS, NFS, and soon AFP to connect to my server directly, why use some weird web interface?

[Masterpiece]

I'm skeptical about this kind of things. For mobile usage I like my Thinkpad, my smartphone and if I could afford it, I might add a 7" Tablet as well, but I don't think I could replace my notebook by a tablet or "phablet". I need a more powerful device than that, and couldn't live with using a that closed operating system exclusively. I think these OSes are not really suited for power intensive work cases.

But that's the point right, this isn't a tablet thread, it's about the convertibles.
A PC that is also usable as a tablet. With Haswell coming up, I'm seriously itching to get one.

[ackblom12]

I'm likely to stick with desktops for several more years simply due to the fact that I like the customization, cost savings and lack the travel time to care about owning a laptop. I also tend to have several TBs worth of data.

[jwhouk]

I would worry about creativity and productivity with a tablet. Unless there were a way to be able to write using a stylus, or have some sort of keyboard, a lot of the stuff that I do on a computer couldn't be done on a tablet.

Then again, I have no plans to upgrade to Windows 8 anytime soon, so there's that.

[Masterpiece]

Convertibles.
Not tablets.

[jwhouk]

Still doesn't do it for me.

[snalin]

Whenever a keyboard has gotten too small to have a numpad, it is simply too small.

[mtmerrick]

I NEVER use numpads. In fact,  they often get in my way.

Also, don't you dare say you can't do stuff on a touchscreen.

[ankhtahr]

I never said that you couldn't do anything on touchscreens. I'm pretty sure it's better for painting and stuff like this (though for that stylus entry is the best option), but for data entry, programming, and such a keyboard is the better choice. For exact pointing-and-clicking work a mouse is still better than a touchscreen. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages.

For data-entry purposes numpads are fantastic. Being able to enter numbers with one hand, while having the other hand free for e.g. the mouse is great.

And about convertibles: Most convertibles don't have the power I need from a notebook nor the portability of something in the ballpark of 7" tablets. For me it's more important to be able to work in bright light than being able to click by touching the screen. For this kind of touchscreens resistive touchscreens are not really suitable, capacitive touchscreens are great but reflective, optical touchscreens (using infrared) allow multitouch and non-reflective surfaces, but tend to get influenced by bright sunlight.

Bottomline: I'm happy with separate Notebooks and Touchscreen devices.

[mtmerrick]

The problems with numpads is that they want to be operated by your right hand. For most of us, the right hand is the mouse hand. So unless you're working with a laptops touchpad, it's a pain in the ass to use. Also,  many (if not most) laptops have the numpads squished up against the keyboard proper, so you're constantly hitting things like enter and backspace while using the numpad, or arrow keys and other numpad function keys when using backspace, enter, ect.

[Masterpiece]

See, keyboard were the main reason why I pushed off buying a laptop in the first place. When I first was in a position to buy my own hardware (back when I did my social service), I'd be repulsed by laptops and the keyboards they had. They were those huge, bulky things with parts that didn't feel like they belonged together and keyboards that were not comfortable to use.

Little has changed since then.

What I like about convertibles (and tablets, while we're at it) is that because of the form factor, manufacturers can't allow things like shoddy build quality - a device that has to be comfortably held in one hand is not supposed to feel like it will break apart with every movement.
That being said, most tablets still have that issue -_- it's why I like Apple. They have a proper idea about build quality. All of their products are built beautifully. The only Win 8 tablet I've used that didn't feel like it was going to break immediately (I am looking at you HP, Toshiba, Acer and Samsung) was the Vaio Tab Duo. Which is why I'm so excited for the 13" variant...

[Kugai]

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/PADD

[bryntheskits]

What do you think of the Asus PadPhone? That feels like a concept at most, and I'm not sure of its practicality. Also, this:

Anyone that doesn't get a bluetooth headset for this thing or some sort of headset at all deserve to look that stupid.

[Kugai]

Agreed

[mtmerrick]

IDK, i think i'd be ok with this:

[Masterpiece]

Always reminds me of how weird the N-Gage was to hold

[mtmerrick]

So masterpiece, what do you think of the thinkpad helix?

[Masterpiece]

Mmm. Definitely intrigued. It's a shame Lenovo products are never on display in retail stores in Germany  because they're so expensive, I would love to try this one out in person.

[mtmerrick]

I actually got a good story about this one.

So we were in Las vegas, a day and a half before CES actually officially starts, getting our badges. We take a different way back, and we see that Lenovo has taken over a restaurant to show off its stuff, instead of using the breakout rooms like everyone else. They're still setting up, but all the electronics are already out on display. So we just walk in, and had a good 15 minutes of playing with smartphones that normally never see the light of day outside asia before some guy comes up to us and asks "hey, um, are you guys with Lenovo?". I respond "No?" with a 'do you have a problem with that' tone. He says, now highly flustered, that "You can't be in here unless you're with Lenovo. No one can." now starting to be a little nervous. So we leave.

On the way out we see a display on a wall, out in public. It has a couple android phones and tablets, and in the center a Thinkpad Helix. I recognise it from the leaks, and go over, saying "holy crap, this thing hasn't even been announced yet!" I touch the sceen to turn off the demo mode, and some wiry little man sprints over, throws himself in between me and the Helix, rips it off the charger, and runs back into the Lenovo room, clutching it to his chest. The look of panic/shame on him was incredible. Clearly this was not SUPPOSED to be on display.

When we came back later the wall display was completely gone. It never returned, even after the device was officially announced. We tried to go back in once the show had officially started a couple days later but we were informed by a burly security guard that this was only for press, and by invitation only.

[mtmerrick]

OK guys, Windows 8.1 is now officially a thing.

Go.



*waits to hear masterpiece sound off before textwalling initial impressions*

[celticgeek]

No.

[Masterpiece]

I heard that a notification center is coming. Color me excited about that, that's about it.

Needs more apps

[mtmerrick]

personally, i think a lot of stuff - everything they announced with multitasking, the way the all apps page works, the way wallpapers work, lockscreen functionality, ect - shoudl have been that way since day one.

i'm very intrigued by 7"/8" tablet support.

i still plan on avoiding don't-call-it-metro apps like the plague, but i saw a couple live tiles, like the weather, that actually seem potentially useful to me.

using the new start screen as the start menu's replacement seems a bit easier now, from a desktop user's perspective.

unified search - about damn time

skydrive integration. ugh. why.


------


that said, the two features grabbing the most amount of PR are the two i am the most unsure of - the new/old 'start button' and boot to desktop.

thing is, though they've inherently changed how you interact with the desktop, the backend hasn't changed. In 8.0 everything was very clear cut. Metro start screen, metro apps, ect. The desktop was an app, a shelled environment for running your legacy software. While i didn't/don't agree with this, it was VERY clear cut. Metro is/was microsoft's vision for the future, the desktop is on its way out.

now, in 8.1, the lines are very blurred. what type of software is microsoft pushing again? the desktop is now "ok" to use again, vs the "we'd really rather you stayed out of it" feel of 8.0. I mean seriously, use some metro apps, and go back to the desktop. it feels like you're living in an emulator, and that's not too far from the truth. but now, the mechanics behind it haven't changed, but they're artificially elevating the desktop to an "importance level" of much higher in the OS.

Its really hard to see where microsoft is actually heading now. desktop? metro? its hard to say, and i don't like that.




TLDR; very interesting. actually an OS i won't mined using, a lot better than W8.0, but seems as if it can't make up its mind.

[Masterpiece]

just found out about the reveal mt is talking about.

ayy ayy ayy improvements, I'm all for improvements. Skydrive integration, yes. Wallpapers, yes. Reading list, awesome. Synched reading list, more awesome. Synched IE tabs, nice. Please work with my phone too.

Search! Was already cool, now looks even better (because I don't have to chose the app I want to search with).

Still waiting on Notification Center here

[mtmerrick]

Re:tan sync - I have a feeling you're going to have to wait for Windows Phone 8.1 for that.

[Masterpiece]

Re:tan sync

[mtmerrick]

that's an autocorrect fail and an imagesplice win

[Masterpiece]

I giggled so much when I made this.

[mtmerrick]

so what do you think of this monstrousity convertible, masterpiece? 

http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/30/acer-aspire-r7-review/

[Masterpiece]

it's really... weird. And besides, I don't trust laptop hinges with touchscreens, I hate it when the screen wobbles when I try to tap it.

[snalin]

thing is, though they've inherently changed how you interact with the desktop, the backend hasn't changed. In 8.0 everything was very clear cut. Metro start screen, metro apps, ect. The desktop was an app, a shelled environment for running your legacy software. While i didn't/don't agree with this, it was VERY clear cut. Metro is/was microsoft's vision for the future, the desktop is on its way out.

now, in 8.1, the lines are very blurred. what type of software is microsoft pushing again? the desktop is now "ok" to use again, vs the "we'd really rather you stayed out of it" feel of 8.0. I mean seriously, use some metro apps, and go back to the desktop. it feels like you're living in an emulator, and that's not too far from the truth. but now, the mechanics behind it haven't changed, but they're artificially elevating the desktop to an "importance level" of much higher in the OS.

Its really hard to see where microsoft is actually heading now. desktop? metro? its hard to say, and i don't like that.

I suspect that they've realized two things - first of all, I imagine that the less tech-savvy out there might have found the metro too confusing. Not that it's an inherently difficult interface, but it's so radically different from the old that the people who rely on sticking to the interfaces they've learned and avoids different ones has had a hard time using it. I'm thinking of the people who don't know what they're doing when they click the start button and then the outlook button to read their mail, they just do it and don't think much of it - like someone starting a car by tuning a key, not knowing (or caring about) why the key turn starts it. The Metro interface is basically replacing the car with a button or a lever or something - while it's not difficult, a lot of people will look at it and go "I'm used to cars having keys, and I think I'll stick to that".

The second thing they might have realized is that A DESKTOP COMPUTER ISN'T A FUCKING TABLET AND THE METRO INTERFACE IS STUPID AS SHIT. That might have happened. I doubt it, but you never know.

[Masterpiece]

So the Surface Pro finally arrived in Germany. I am SO tempted to buy, but I should know better and not do anything stupid

[bhtooefr]

so what do you think of this monstrousity convertible, masterpiece? 

http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/30/acer-aspire-r7-review/

I'm not Masterpiece, but...

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