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Author Topic: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever  (Read 15357 times)

Method of Madness

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The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« on: 09 May 2013, 12:38 »

It's only one syllable south of the Mason-Dixon line.   

As in, "Man, I'm Tired" (Man, I'm TAHR'D). 

"You're hired" (Yer HAHR'D) (not to be confused with, "You're hard!")
Fair enough, to me, tire and hire rhyme with liar, which is two syllables, so that's why I consider tire and hire (and their past tense versions) to be two as well.
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Carl-E

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #1 on: 09 May 2013, 13:50 »

Oh, same for me.  I'm a certifiable nor'easter.  Hell, where I come from, the word "yup" has two syllables (eye-up)


But my wife's from St. Louis.  27 years, and I still have trouble with her drawl at times...
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #2 on: 09 May 2013, 15:36 »

Fair enough, to me, tire and hire rhyme with liar, which is two syllables, so that's why I consider tire and hire (and their past tense versions) to be two as well.
I always struggle a bit with syllable count in English. As a rule of thumb, I base it on vowel-sounds, so tire is one syllable because there is only one vowel-sound, while liar is two because there are two vowel-sounds ("lie-ah" in my accent). Regional pronunciation does complicate this idea though, I will admit. I have known people who pronounce liar as "lahr".

I once wrote a poem that contained the word "crushed", and was bashed for treating it as two syllables. It certainly has two "beats", I think, but there is only one vowel-sound. On-line syllable counters sometimes treat it as one, sometimes two, so... I don't know.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #3 on: 09 May 2013, 15:46 »

I've always heard it pronounced lye-AR
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Redball

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #4 on: 09 May 2013, 15:49 »

Fair enough, to me, tire and hire rhyme with liar, which is two syllables, so that's why I consider tire and hire (and their past tense versions) to be two as well.
I always struggle a bit with syllable count in English. As a rule of thumb, I base it on vowel-sounds, so tire is one syllable because there is only one vowel-sound, while liar is two because there are two vowel-sounds ("lie-ah" in my accent). Regional pronunciation does complicate this idea though, I will admit. I have known people who pronounce liar as "lahr".

I once wrote a poem that contained the word "crushed", and was bashed for treating it as two syllables. It certainly has two "beats", I think, but there is only one vowel-sound. On-line syllable counters sometimes treat it as one, sometimes two, so... I don't know.

I think you're talking about diphthongs, which describe two vowel sounds in what's considered a single syllable. "Loud" "coin" and "side" are offered as examples" LOU-ewd, COE-ane and SI-ed.  You can try to pronounce them without changing the vowel sound, but at least in American English, you probably won't succeed.

So I don't see a distinction between TIE-er and LIE-er.

And "crushed" is not CRUSH-ed, but CRUSHT: one syllable. I think in some poetry, t is substituted for ed.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #5 on: 09 May 2013, 15:54 »

This further goes to back of my theory that phonics in English is a load of bullshit and should not be taught to impressionable children.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #6 on: 09 May 2013, 15:57 »

Oh, same for me.  I'm a certifiable nor'easter.  Hell, where I come from, the word "yup" has two syllables (eye-up)

Carl, have you ever heard the "Bert and I" recording? Droll little stories/anecdotes told in a down-east accent?
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #7 on: 09 May 2013, 16:54 »

I once wrote a poem that contained the word "crushed", and was bashed for treating it as two syllables. It certainly has two "beats", I think, but there is only one vowel-sound. On-line syllable counters sometimes treat it as one, sometimes two, so... I don't know.

You were missing an accent; your either have crushed (crush'd) or crushèd (crushehd). Either way the shd noise doesn't count as a syllable.

Quote
The grave accent, although not standardly applied to any English words, is sometimes used in poetry and song lyrics to indicate that a vowel usually silent is to be pronounced, in order to fit the rhythm or meter. Most often, it is applied to a word ending with -ed. For instance, the word looked is usually pronounced /ˈlʊkt/ as a single syllable, with the e silent; when written as lookèd, the e is pronounced: /ˈlʊk.ɨd/ look-ed). It can also be used in this capacity to distinguish certain pairs of identically spelled words like the past tense of learn, learned /ˈlɜrnd/, from the adjective learnèd /ˈlɜrn.ɨd/ (for example, "a very learnèd man").
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ankhtahr

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #8 on: 09 May 2013, 19:42 »

All this phonetics talk forces my interest in british accents/dialects into my mind again. I admit I've been watching too much Doctor Who lately, which offers many interesting specimen. I even listened to BBC Scotland for a while, just because I like the accent.

In Scottish English all this would be even worse. I mean, seriously, an accent in which even the word "girl" sounds like it has two syllables has got to be difficult to make poems with.
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westrim

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #9 on: 09 May 2013, 20:26 »

This further goes to back of my theory that phonics in English is a load of bullshit and should not be taught to impressionable children.
When I was young, I went to visit family in Georgia, and got slipped into an elementary school with my cousins while the adults went and did adult things. I recently found a report the school did, noting that for the couple days I was there I struggled with their phonics program, blaming it on the California education system. This amused me, since as I recall my actual struggle was with changing the words from something I could spell and read just fine to weird hyphened gobbledegook.

My point is, total bullshit.

I think my signature answers that.
Speaking of your signature, there's a slice of cake next to your age in your forum profile. Is it your birthday?

Well, he had qualifications.
Ha, I just noticed that what Tai said after he Marten passed was almost in iambic pentameter. (Although I think I remember someone here telling me a while ago I was wrong about "hired" being two syllables, something I still disagree with.)
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Unless I'm missing something, the jokes are the application, her response, and Dewey decimal system, which would make you, for the strips purposes, right.
« Last Edit: 09 May 2013, 21:31 by Westrim »
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Throg

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #10 on: 09 May 2013, 21:58 »

Hanners in a powersuit.  I approve.

Iron Hanners!

QC/Marvel crossover!

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #11 on: 09 May 2013, 22:33 »

I think my signature answers that.
Speaking of your signature, there's a slice of cake next to your age in your forum profile. Is it your birthday?

Yes.

51 on the 9th of May

Thank you for noticing.    :)
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #12 on: 09 May 2013, 22:50 »

Quick! Someone get a melted lug wrench cake! :D

And Emily is a dog walker. Somehow, this fits.

That's obviously Shelby over on the left. Which one's Roswell?
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #13 on: 09 May 2013, 23:06 »

Hippo birdie two ewe!

I can offer no excuse for why my native language makes "crushed" one syllable and "blessed" two syllables (in e.g. "Blessed be the name of the Lord"). Nor for why "blessed" turns back into one syllable when it's a past tense ("The priest blessed them").

Emily: be advised that there are severe potential drawbacks to walking dogs barefoot.
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KOK

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #14 on: 09 May 2013, 23:15 »

Fair enough, to me, tire and hire rhyme with liar, which is two syllables, so that's why I consider tire and hire (and their past tense versions) to be two as well.
I always struggle a bit with syllable count in English. As a rule of thumb, I base it on vowel-sounds, so tire is one syllable because there is only one vowel-sound, while liar is two because there are two vowel-sounds ("lie-ah" in my accent). Regional pronunciation does complicate this idea though, I will admit. I have known people who pronounce liar as "lahr".

I once wrote a poem that contained the word "crushed", and was bashed for treating it as two syllables. It certainly has two "beats", I think, but there is only one vowel-sound. On-line syllable counters sometimes treat it as one, sometimes two, so... I don't know.

I think you're talking about diphthongs, which describe two vowel sounds in what's considered a single syllable. "Loud" "coin" and "side" are offered as examples" LOU-ewd, COE-ane and SI-ed.  You can try to pronounce them without changing the vowel sound, but at least in American English, you probably won't succeed.

So I don't see a distinction between TIE-er and LIE-er.

And "crushed" is not CRUSH-ed, but CRUSHT: one syllable. I think in some poetry, t is substituted for ed.

English spelling seems extremely wierd to me. Diphtongs are spelled with a single letter (the word pronounced hai is spelled hi), while single vowels are spelled with two letters (two words pronounced si are spelled see and sea).  From my native Danish, I am used to counting syllables by counting vowel letters. "Marie" has an a, and i and an e, obviously three syllables.
« Last Edit: 10 May 2013, 02:00 by KOK »
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Kugai

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #15 on: 10 May 2013, 00:50 »

Hehehe

Thanks folks


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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #17 on: 10 May 2013, 02:48 »

Roswell, I guess, would be the one with the ball in his mouth. The Old English Sheepdog back right just reminds me of an old British kids' cartoon called Mop and Smiff.

A Scots accent (to me at least) is all about those rolled r's, and I worked very hard on acquiring them (born to Scottish parents but have never lived there, so no natural accent).

Warning - while you were typing Emily has lost two dogs but gained three marmots. You may wish to review your post.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #18 on: 10 May 2013, 03:19 »

Reading this thread, I feel a lot less self-conscious about my language pronunciation already  :laugh:
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #19 on: 10 May 2013, 03:31 »

The R is probably the most prominent feature of Scottish English, but usually it's not a rolled r (as is being used excessively by Rammstein e.g.) but a tapped r, which sounds like a rolled r which is only being rolled once. Opposed to a rolled r which is being produced by, I would say, the back of the tongue, it is being produced by rolling the tip of the tongue back to front over the roof of your mouth. It is slightly similar to the Japanese r (which is the origin of the myth that Japanese couldn't pronounce "r"s properly).

But it's very hard to pronounce this r right in front of a consonant, which is why some speakers "add" a vowel in between. This makes "girl" sound like "girel" for some.

Loki: The reason why I as a non native speaker am so interested in this is because I want to use correct/consistent pronunciation. (And because of the nice Northern accent of the Ninth Doctor, and the typical Estuary accent of the Tenth Doctor, which stands in contrast to the Scottish accent of David Tennant)
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Method of Madness

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #20 on: 10 May 2013, 05:30 »

(the word pronounced hai is spelled hi)
This just confused me, because to me the word "hi" is also pronounced "hi". The i is just long. If anything, it's pronounced "hae". The word that's pronounced "hai" is spelled "hay" or "hey".
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #21 on: 10 May 2013, 05:32 »

At some point I stopped caring and just used the pronunciation that sounds right to me. I still speak better than most of my peers, and teachers. I have been told that I have a Welsh accent, but I beg to differ.

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #22 on: 10 May 2013, 05:43 »

(the word pronounced hai is spelled hi)
This just confused me, because to me the word "hi" is also pronounced "hi". The i is just long. If anything, it's pronounced "hae". The word that's pronounced "hai" is spelled "hay" or "hey".

Danish has imported this word, but spells it hej. The difference between this and haj, meaning shark, is in stress, not in vowel quality. As I hear the word, in either language, there is a glide from the a of dark to an i sound. Hey is very similar, but glides from the e of get to i. In my language this word would be spelled hæj.

A long i sound with no glide is heard in see or beach.
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Method of Madness

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #23 on: 10 May 2013, 05:45 »

I guess it depends on language. In English, "see" uses a long e sound, not a long i sound.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #24 on: 10 May 2013, 05:49 »

To me the vowel of see sounds just like the one of fit or ship, only longer.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #25 on: 10 May 2013, 05:59 »

I feel the need coming on for a thread in Chatter, as we've had in the past, in which we post recordings of ourselves talking, either reading something, or saying certain sounds that are being discussed.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #26 on: 10 May 2013, 06:06 »

yay, a speech thread!
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #27 on: 10 May 2013, 06:55 »

Vocaroo is the program I've seen used for such exercises.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #28 on: 10 May 2013, 07:23 »

To me the vowel of see sounds just like the one of fit or ship, only longer.

Here it's more like feet or sheep.
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KOK

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #29 on: 10 May 2013, 07:43 »

Is there a difference between sheep and ship other than length? Same for fit or feet.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #30 on: 10 May 2013, 07:59 »

the "ee" in sheep and feet" is a long "e" sound. Ship and fit are more curt and pronounced differently. So sheep would be "Sh eee p" where ship is more like sh ih p
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #31 on: 10 May 2013, 08:00 »

We occasionally have our collaborator from Brazil visit, and he says that it's difficult for native Portuguese speakers to tell the difference between the "ee" sound and the short-"i" sound, which makes words like "sheep" and "ship" sound the same to him. This sets up the joke about asking for some paper: "Could you give me a shit of paper... uh, I mean a piss of paper... just give me some damn paper."
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #32 on: 10 May 2013, 08:17 »

My mother used to teach computer stuff to people that had come to the UK looking for work. One said to her during an MS Excel lesson "I've wiped the shit on my computer". He'd accidentally deleted all the data in the spreadsheet. Yay, pronunscination!
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #33 on: 10 May 2013, 11:47 »

Seems like a lot of people have never seen this British advert. Oh we're so funny.  :psyduck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xknub_pILt8
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #34 on: 10 May 2013, 12:51 »

pwhodges added a soundcloud tag not long ago. Does it work on Apple devices yet?
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #35 on: 10 May 2013, 16:45 »

-- we also walk dogs.
A priceless Chinese cultural artefact, probably looted, used as the equivalent of the plastic toy handed over with a Happy Meal, so that a few wealthy white people can look at it. The author's racist and colonialist assumptions are revolting. Fuck you, Bob! :x

Edit: It seems that "We Also Walk Dogs" was first published in 1941, when middle-class white Americans like Heinlein would have taken it for granted that they, and their British counterparts, were fully entitled to do whatever they liked with Chinese artefacts. The depressing thing is that this is still true to a considerable extent, as demonstrated by the behaviour of Western museums, and that, returning to science-fiction, Joss Whedon's attitude to Chinese culture, as exhibited in Firefly and Serenity, is much the same as Heinlein's; that Chinese "stuff" is cool, but who cares what Chinese people think or say?
« Last Edit: 10 May 2013, 17:51 by Akima »
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #36 on: 10 May 2013, 18:10 »

"Colonialist" is clearly right, but if the creator of Henry Gladstone Kiku and Dr. Royce Worthington was "racist", he deserves much credit for overcoming it.

EDIT: with a little more thought, it's inevitable that someone born in Missouri in 1907 would start out racist. He's a shining example of growing past it.
« Last Edit: 10 May 2013, 19:13 by Is it cold in here? »
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #37 on: 10 May 2013, 19:51 »

I'd argue that Whedon's Firefly isn't just "Hey Chinese is cool" the whole idea was that Chinese and Western (predominantly American) society had merged on a very fundamental level during the migration from Earth.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #38 on: 10 May 2013, 20:10 »

I was looking back through the archives and saw this (especially panel three) http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=509 which of course made me think about how the current Faye/Angus storyline and Marten's current state of relationship... Just sayin'.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #39 on: 10 May 2013, 21:38 »

-- we also walk dogs.
A priceless Chinese cultural artefact, probably looted, used as the equivalent of the plastic toy handed over with a Happy Meal, so that a few wealthy white people can look at it. The author's racist and colonialist assumptions are revolting. Fuck you, Bob! :x

Edit: It seems that "We Also Walk Dogs" was first published in 1941, when middle-class white Americans like Heinlein would have taken it for granted that they, and their British counterparts, were fully entitled to do whatever they liked with Chinese artefacts. The depressing thing is that this is still true to a considerable extent, as demonstrated by the behaviour of Western museums, and that, returning to science-fiction, Joss Whedon's attitude to Chinese culture, as exhibited in Firefly and Serenity, is much the same as Heinlein's; that Chinese "stuff" is cool, but who cares what Chinese people think or say?

Sensei Heinlein's views changed a lot over the years as time went on.  One has to take much of his earlier work in context with the time he lived and grew up in.  I've been a fan of his works for a couple of decades now and, despite some of the cringe making things in some of his works, I still enjoy them.


And still want Paul Verhoven publicly flogged.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #40 on: 10 May 2013, 22:46 »

I'll read the story tomorrow, but what's the artifact and how is it racist?
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #41 on: 11 May 2013, 01:00 »

"The Flower of Forgetfulness", a unique artwork, which General Services extracted from a museum and traded to a physicist in exchange for inventing antigravity.

Now that Akima reminded me of the story, it really would have been a better story if the physicist had been Chinese and motivated by a desire to put it in a Chinese museum rather than hoard it in his own collection.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #42 on: 11 May 2013, 03:37 »

Specifically a unique piece of Ming porcelain that was in the British Museum (how did it get there in the first place? The looting of the Summer Palace perhaps? Might the Chinese government have been trying to get it repatriated? Who cares? Not anyone in the story, that's for sure) was obtained by some corrupt means so that the British (again, who cares about China, right?) might not be upset by its disappearance and make a fuss, and then dangled as a prize to persuade a wealthy physicist to work on gravity control.

At no point does anyone exhibit the smallest doubt that they're entitled to do this, or that a rich guy's personal collection isn't an appropriate place for the bowl, or that China might have the smallest say in the matter, or indeed have any importance in world affairs generally. Oh, and at the end, our heroes demonstrate that they're not really just a bunch of mercenary jerks, but refined and civilised people, by asking for the right to view the artefact from time to time. The worth of a Chinese artwork is, you see, established because a bunch of rich white people think it is beautiful. After all, they're the only ones who'll ever get the chance to see it!

it really would have been a better story if the physicist had been Chinese and motivated by a desire to put it in a Chinese museum rather than hoard it in his own collection.
It would, but a non-white scientist in 1940s American science fiction? The makers of 2010: The Year We Make Contact couldn't stomach that idea in 1984! The Chinese space-mission they cut out of that movie (along with the Indian computer scientist), in the book flew a spacecraft named after Tsien Hsue-shen, who actually was working in the American rocket program in 1941, but I can't think of any fictional equivalent from the period. I would have settled for the physicist leaving his collection to the Beijing Capital Museum in his will. A bit patronising, yes, but the most that might have been expected then, I think.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #43 on: 11 May 2013, 06:01 »

Specifically a unique piece of Ming porcelain that was in the British Museum (how did it get there in the first place? The looting of the Summer Palace perhaps?
That's where most such treasures came from. Grand theft. So much was lost though, burnt or destroyed... and then that that survived sometimes got trashed in the Cultural Revolution. *SIGH*
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Might the Chinese government have been trying to get it repatriated? Who cares? Not anyone in the story, that's for sure) was obtained by some corrupt means so that the British (again, who cares about China, right?) might not be upset by its disappearance and make a fuss, and then dangled as a prize to persuade a wealthy physicist to work on gravity control.
In 1941... there was no China as a nation. There was the Kuomintang regime, but even there it was a gaggle of warlords who sometimes fought Mao's group, sometimes fought the Japanese, sometimes fought warlords who weren't part of the regime in the west (Sheng Shicai of Xinjiang comes to mind), and sometimes fought each other.

In 1941, thinking of China as a nation once more would be like thinking of the resurgence of the Holy Roman Empire today. Beyond imagination.

In early 1941, the Burma Road shut down, the railroad from Haiphong likewise, Russia a de-facto ally of the Axis, no longer supporting the Nationalists.. it was likely that what we call "China" today would be effectively extinct, replaced by a patchwork of successor-states in the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere a la Manchukuo. Any request for repatriation would likely be to Tokyo. If anything, Heinlein was a bit daring stating it was in the British Museum, and not in Berlin.

Tell me... if a Roman artifact was found in England - who should it be repatriated to? France - if it was made in Transalpine Gaul? Italy, since Rome is in Italy? The Vatican Museum perhaps?

I think it fair to assume that in this future history, there was no "Chinese government" as such. Any more than there's a "Roman government" today.

Then add the layers of culturally ingrained racism, cultural imperialism, treating the balkanised "central land" and its many nationalities as some kind of joke... yes, it's pretty bad. Insulting. Wrong. (Also sewing the wind, with the whirlwind to come in the 21st and especially 22nd centuries. If I was Chinese, I'd be seriously pissed, if you'll pardon the expression).

So although I feel you're wrong in detail, you're right in practice. The issue may have occurred to Heinlein - but never his readership. It, like "Huckleberry Finn" is a story of its times, and we should feel shamed that things were once like that.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #44 on: 11 May 2013, 06:05 »

The depressing thing is that this is still true to a considerable extent, as demonstrated by the behaviour of Western museums
Yup.
I think they'll be sorry in a hundred years. Maybe they'll be treated better than they treated others.
Or maybe something unexpected will happen to upset the applecart.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #45 on: 11 May 2013, 06:29 »

The Chinese space-mission they cut out of that movie (along with the Indian computer scientist), in the book flew a spacecraft named after Tsien Hsue-shen, who actually was working in the American rocket program in 1941,
Along with the British post-war persecution of Alan Turing, the German persecution of Albert Einstein, the hounding of Qian Xuesen out of the USA were the three greatest pieces of countries shooting themselves in the foot that I can think of.

Xuesen was the chief debriefer of one SS-Sturmbannführer Werner Von Braun. He was the closest thing to the head of a US Space Program at the time. He was accused of being a Communist in one of the Red Scares. At first they wanted him deported as a useless threat, then someone with a working braincell realised how valuable he was and detained him when he tried to leave as the idiots wanted...

Fortunately there were those with working braincells in China, and despite being an intellectual, he wasn't sentenced to "re-education" during the Cultural Revolution.

Not the USA's finest hour.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #46 on: 11 May 2013, 07:39 »

If an item is found in a particular country, does it necessarily belong to that country? If it was owned by a government that ceased to exist, why does the current government that happens to be in the same place have any claim, unless they found it themselves?
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #47 on: 11 May 2013, 08:11 »

Specifically a unique piece of Ming porcelain that was in the British Museum (how did it get there in the first place? The looting of the Summer Palace perhaps? Might the Chinese government have been trying to get it repatriated? Who cares? Not anyone in the story, that's for sure) was obtained by some corrupt means so that the British (again, who cares about China, right?) might not be upset by its disappearance and make a fuss, and then dangled as a prize to persuade a wealthy physicist to work on gravity control.

I don't think it would have made a material difference to the story or to the moral status of the actions if the artifact in question had been the Mona Lisa or the Venus of Willendorf. (Or, say, Vermeer's "The Concert", stolen in 1990 from the Gardner Museum in Boston along with other priceless works, including three Rembrandts and a Shang Dynasty gu, presumably for a "private collector".)

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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #48 on: 11 May 2013, 08:15 »

If an item is found in a particular country, does it necessarily belong to that country? If it was owned by a government that ceased to exist, why does the current government that happens to be in the same place have any claim, unless they found it themselves?
There is such a thing as "legal successor" in regards to states.

For example, after the downfall of the USSR, Russia went and said "we are the legal successor of the USSR. If anyone has any outstanding business with the USSR, come to us", and mostly everyone agreed, I suppose because Russia was where the orders were coming from anyway.

Similarly, the Federal Republic of Germany is the legal successor of the Third Reich, which in turn would probably be consider the legal successor of the Weimar Republic.
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Re: The most off-topic WCDT discussion ever
« Reply #49 on: 11 May 2013, 08:31 »

I guess I've never thought of it like that. Interesting. But the Russia/USSR thing poses a new question, because the USSR's borders stretched beyond Russia's current ones.  If a Soviet artifact (if something that new can be considered an artifact is mere semantics) is found in a former Soviet country, who does it belong to?
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