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Author Topic: miscellaneous musings  (Read 149215 times)

pwhodges

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2900 on: 24 Jan 2019, 01:43 »

Remember this, and this?
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Tova

Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2901 on: 24 Jan 2019, 03:09 »

Nope. I think those news items must have passed me by.

Also -- what Case said! With an extra side of "yaaaaaaaugh!"

Eeeeeeeeep!

No, iz not just you ...


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Morituri

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2902 on: 24 Jan 2019, 12:58 »

I have never had a snapchat account, nor facebook, nor etc etc etc...  nor wanted one.

These articles come to me as though from an alien world.
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Tova

Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2903 on: 24 Jan 2019, 14:00 »

I don't have a snapchat account, but I know a couple of people who do, and that's how I've seen what its filters do to photographs.

I think I hid my horror quite well. I am still pondering whether this was the right thing to do.
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Morituri

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2904 on: 24 Jan 2019, 19:39 »

I wonder if they'd make mannequins or Barbie dolls look more realistic.  That would be something to try.
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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2905 on: 25 Jan 2019, 00:51 »

Snapchat has its pros and cons. Social media wise you can definitely do worse.
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LTK

Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2906 on: 29 Jan 2019, 08:48 »

I'm not procrastinating, I'm delegating tasks to future me.
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I just got the image of a midwife and a woman giving birth swinging towards each other on a trapeze - when they meet, the midwife pulls the baby out. The knife juggler is standing on the floor and cuts the umbilical cord with a a knifethrow.

Tova

Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2907 on: 29 Jan 2019, 21:37 »

The danger of delegating tasks to future you is that future you never turns up.
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LeeC

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2908 on: 30 Jan 2019, 04:10 »

The danger of delegating tasks to future you is that future you never turns up.

This is so true it hurts...
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Thrillho

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2909 on: 30 Jan 2019, 12:10 »

Past me is an asshole, why would I give a shit what he thinks?
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Case

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2910 on: 30 Jan 2019, 12:20 »

Past me is an asshole, why would I give a shit what he thinks?

Well, his thinking is the reason you have to deal his procrastination ...  :-D
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Case

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2911 on: 30 Jan 2019, 12:22 »

I'm not procrastinating, I'm delegating tasks to future me.

I feel a deep sense of relief I'm not the only one entertaining the notion of their current and future selves being different persons.
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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2912 on: 30 Jan 2019, 13:36 »

Past me is an asshole, why would I give a shit what he thinks?

Well, his thinking is the reason you have to deal his procrastination ...  :-D

This is why I blame him for everything. But he just refuses to be held accountable...
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Tova

Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2913 on: 01 Feb 2019, 15:09 »

More and more, I am of the opinion that tribalism is at the root of all public discourse dysfunction.

When reading an article in the media, wherever it is on the spectrum from pure opinion to pure event/fact reporting, it appears that people are unable or unwilling to engage thoughtfully with whatever is being said.

Instead, the piece goes through the following algorithm:

1. Which team am I batting for? (Usually left/right, occasionally more specific teams are chosen).
2. Which team do I perceive this particular piece as benefiting?
2a. My team: I must cheer it or support it.
2b. The other team: I must criticise or mock it.

I wanted to give an example, but going through it, I just found it exasperating, so for my own health, I won't.

I'm at a loss to know what could be done to improve this state of affairs.
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Case

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2914 on: 02 Feb 2019, 20:24 »

More and more, I am of the opinion that tribalism is at the root of all public discourse dysfunction.
[...]
I'm at a loss to know what could be done to improve this state of affairs.

No. Tribal instincts have been with us from the start. They were once - probably still are - an adaptation increasing our chance of survival. They are the mechanism, not the cause, the firing pin striking the cartridge, not the finger on the trigger.

What we have to find out is: How did our societies keep our tribal instincts in check in the past? What condition has changed this time? (It's not the 1930s. Are you stepping over bodies on your way to work? No? -> Not the 1930s) And in which way(s) did it drive the system out of equilibrium?

And no, I don't think we should spend too much time with economic arguments, or rather, we should look at them more in terms of inequality, and how that inequality is percieved. While certainly important, we're not stepping over starved people in the street of major cities. My ancestors did. Perception plays a crucial role, methinks, and especially perception of inequality and persistent crisis, that Government is unable or unwilling to correct. None of that needs necessarily to be true, or true to a significant degree for an uncomfortably large share of the people getting dangerous ideas.

TL;DR - The polarization is a symptom of a persistent imbalance. An equilibrium has been disturbed. It could even be that the disturbance started long before the fashionably-blamed Internet. And why, if we're all so convinced that social media is poisoning our societies, has noone seriously argued to shut them down? Our Governments can do that, remember? And those that lack suitable legal means, can create them. That's what parliaments are for. Too crass proposal, too dangerous? Democratic societies have made far more drastic interventions in the past than shutting down 5 companies - and they have done so without stopping to be democratic states. Think of prohibition. Declaring political parties unlawful. People not being able to look at their Facebook - that doesn't come even close in terms of limitations of personal rights, or freedom of enterprise.

Do we ourselves even believe that Facebook et. al. are to blame? If not, we should stop saying so and start looking for alternative theories. But if we do ... then we should start behaving like we are taking this seriously. Then the social media giants should learn that their continued existence is contingent on their enthusiastic cooperation.
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Tova

Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2915 on: 02 Feb 2019, 21:56 »

What we have to find out is: How did our societies keep our tribal instincts in check in the past?

Did we keep our tribal instincts in check in the past? I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced that we did.

I wasn't trying to suggest that what I'm describing is a new phenomenon, or even that it's now worse. I'm just becoming increasingly aware of it.
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Case

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2916 on: 03 Feb 2019, 06:23 »

What we have to find out is: How did our societies keep our tribal instincts in check in the past?

Did we keep our tribal instincts in check in the past? I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced that we did.

We did ... except when we didn't. Prominent examples of failures include the various fascist movements that popped up in Democracies all over the world in the early 20th Century, almost simultaneously (Bit like the 'illiberal Democracy' movements today. Well, if you're a bit generous about 'simultaneity'). Since we aren't all constantly throwing Roman salutes & invading Poland, we must have succeeded in keeping those impulses in check - so how did we do that, and when did whatever we were doing right become less effective?

I wasn't trying to suggest that what I'm describing is a new phenomenon, or even that it's now worse. I'm just becoming increasingly aware of it.

I know! And I didn't mean to argue against your perception - which I share - I was just trying to take your idea and run with it, see how far I could take it. Brainstorming-like, see?

You posit that tribalism is behind the 'fracturing of a common reality' that we are currently observing, and that 'tribally motivated reasoning' is increasingly poisoning our public discourse. I agree emphatically - in fact, I recall reading about sociology/social psychology research that basically confirms your observation (I'll post links when I remember when the damn' things are). My modification of your argument would be that the problem isn't tribalism or tribal instincts per se, as those instincts and cognitive failures have been with us right from the start (maybe even for longer than humans exist - riffing here on some research into primates that I dimly recall.).

If tribalism were the root cause of the strain on our societies, we wouldn't be having this discussion - we'd never developed those societies in the first place. It also seems to be a bit utopian: We can't exactly wait for evolution to solve the problem - less tribal humans won't appear soon enough to save our societies. Homo Sapiens, with all his gifts and flaws, is what we have to work with. I also suspect that the argument overlooks the beneficial aspect of our tribal instincts, and how instrumental they are to the functioning of aspects of our societies we deem essential - the urge to defend the tribe can be a powerful motivator for altruistic action (What is the emotional message behind arguments for policies aimed at "the common good"? Methinks that 'the common good' is a polite way of saying 'For the tribe').

So I suspect that it might the more illuminating to ask 'Why do our societies increasingly fail to channel our tribal instincts to the benefit of society? What has changed?'. Or something like that.
« Last Edit: 03 Feb 2019, 10:31 by Case »
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Case

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2917 on: 03 Feb 2019, 09:57 »

Quote
"The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you donít know youíre a member of the Dunning-Kruger club. People miss that.

David Dunning, 2018"

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/1/31/18200497/dunning-kruger-effect-explained-trump
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LeeC

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2918 on: 13 Feb 2019, 07:11 »

I think I would quite enjoy a movie set in the alien universe from the same era as the first alien movie but there are no aliens in it. Same type of tech and sets, different story and no Alien.
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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #2919 on: 13 Feb 2019, 09:11 »

I speculate that tribalism gets worse when people are scared, and that how scared they are is independent of whether they are stepping over bodies on the way to work.

There's a book called "Common Ground" which goes into just how much money is being made inflaming tribal differences.
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