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What aumented reality pal would you want?

Holo Maid
- 26 (17.7%)
Holo Holo
- 12 (8.2%)
Holo Nefertiti
- 12 (8.2%)
Holo Gram
- 10 (6.8%)
Holo Day
- 6 (4.1%)
Holo Fireman
- 1 (0.7%)
Holo Ship
- 2 (1.4%)
Holo Station
- 11 (7.5%)
Holo Man
- 0 (0%)
Holo Nic Cage
- 18 (12.2%)
Holo Pony
- 26 (17.7%)
Holo, I'm going to complain you didn't put in my idea.
- 23 (15.6%)

Total Members Voted: 88


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Author Topic: WCDT: 2495-2499 (22-26 July, 2013) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread  (Read 132121 times)

Kugai

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May:  "NOOOOOO!  Not the White Rooommmm!!!!"
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James The Kugai 

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Storel

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We don't know Pintsize's age, but he was with Marten for at least two years before the rest of the gang showed up, and he's never mentioned a previous vocation.

Actually, the strip where Pintsize first gets assigned to Marten makes it pretty clear that the store personnel already knew all about Pintsize's proclivity toward violence and property damage. So it's very likely that Pintsize had already been companioned to at least one person before Marten, but was returned for... let's just call it "incompatibility". :wink: Otherwise there'd be no reason for the AI behind the desk to get so nervous and feel such a sudden urge to discuss "...our return procedure. And our criminal liability agreement. And our insurance policies."

And in the arc where Marigold gets Momo a new chassis, 1997 and 1999 show that some AIs try out multiple jobs before finding one they really like.

Quote
It seems likely that an AI starting out as a companion is probably freshly 'hatched', especially on a new project like this.

Since 1999 also points out that "most of us are happy with our chosen role", indicating that only a minority of AIs do much job-hopping, I'd agree with that, as long as the "likely" and "probably" are understood to indicate that it's not true for all AIs.

I'd think they have to give new AIs some basic education before letting them loose on the real world, though, or how are the new AI's supposed to have any idea what they want to do?

Edit:

May:  "NOOOOOO!  Not the White Rooommmm!!!!"

With black curtains, near the station?

Dang, now I've got that song running through my head...  :-P
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Carl-E

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Of course I got it, but I just read it.  We're not all on 24-7, you know... 

Also, May said she'd been rejected fifteen times that morning.  How many days of rejection before that were there?  And if Dale rejects her, won't she just go looking for another sucker beta tester? 

It's not the end of May, not by a long shot. 
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When people try to speak a gut reaction, they end up talking out their ass.

jwhouk

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I wonder if this is actually a means of developing an AI's 'morality code' - something perhaps added when the Powers That Be strongly suggested to the central AI that it do something since there may have been cases of... um, companion neglect on the part of AnthroPC's with their human counterparts?
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Carl-E

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So... suggested because of Pintsize? 
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Storel

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I'm sad no one got the Cream reference in Kugai's post :(

*ahem* I added my edit to the post above yours a good four minutes before you posted it.  8-)
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Perfectly Reasonable

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We first see Dale's glasses glow in 1693 -- though they're a different shape. (Also note the Haruhi poster, the bookcase full of manga, and the bokken in the corner.)

We see that Dale has a limit to how much obnoxiousness he can tolerate. May deserves her time-out.

And she should know better. It would make sense to give AIs a few hours of virtual training (equivalent to several human lifetimes) before letting them interact with the Real World. (Of course Rule of Funny will always trump Rule of Logic.)

And why did Jeph afflict Dale with a character only he can interact with? Dale is getting some intensive character development. Jeph has plans for Dale.




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What would I do if I were smart?
I guess first I'd stop taking the stupid pills.

Perfectly Reasonable

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Now Dale is doing what he should have done in the first place -- researching this "Glasses Companion" thing.
(Better to do it on someone else's computer though.)
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What would I do if I were smart?
I guess first I'd stop taking the stupid pills.

Is it cold in here?

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AIs grow up in some kind of VR creche, according to Jeph. We can only guess what kind of education happens there.

There was a mention of "morality programming" once, but it was likely a joke.
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Throg

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Eh, May is just unhappy about being sent to the Virtual Cornfield.

It's boring there and she gets stuck with a bunch of other AI's, all of whom are just as annoying as she is.

No sympathy.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2013, 14:02 by Throg »
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ZoeB

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I thought she was being funny.. although.. I have pretty much zero social experience since I spend/spent most of my time just coding or playing games.
Please don't take May for a role model. Or Marigold either, as she seems to spend most of her time just coding or playing games too.

Humans are social creatures. Understanding others is hard. But if you can - try to get out more. RPG or SF conventions for example. I'd give more suggestions, it's just that I'm not very good at this "socialising" thing either.

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Maybe it's the fact that she would be an interesting friend since I basically have none >.>

You do now that you're here.
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Kugai

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James The Kugai 

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Oglokoog

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Regarding #2498 - why put an unquestionably correct moral decision in with all the acts of random assholery that May suggests?
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KOK

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They are all suggestions that might cost him his job.
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Quote from: Marten
You're cute when you're reasonable.

KOK

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I didn't notice till now: we have a jubilee Monday.
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Quote from: Marten
You're cute when you're reasonable.

Mlle Germain

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I will admit that I do not hope May will become a regular character in the comic - judging from her behaviour so far. Firstly, she can only interact with Dale, which is not very interesting on the long run, secondly she seems to be the kind of character who always has to draw attention to herself  and be in the centre of attention everywhere, so even if she had a chassis, this would probably just make her more annoying.
In my opinion, May has been "worse" so far than Pintsize ever was - though it's true that only her negative characteristics were shown. With Pintsize, one always knew that he did wacky things sometimes, but deep down he's a good companion to Marten and he is a loyal friend and helpful when necessary (Collecting money for Faye, for example). May just does not seem to have any empathy (not saying that's her fault).
I will admit that although I love jokes and fun and talking a lot, I'm pretty serious when it comes to behaving correctly at work and towards other people so that their feelings are not hurt. So I really wouldn't take kindly to someone behaving as insultingly towards others as May in real life.
Ah well, we'll see how this develops...
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rschill

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I'm sure that all the AIs capable of human interaction know what ethics are and are capable of abiding by them.  But in any mind sufficiently flexible enough to have a concept of self interest, there is going to be a capability to disregard ethics for one reason or another. 

"It ain't that much harder to do what's right, it's just maybe not as much fun" 
-The Devil, in a conversation with Ray Wylie Hubbard

Oh, the wrong and stupid things I've done out of restless boredom. 
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jwhouk

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"Character is what you are in the Dark." - D.L. Moody
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J

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Regarding #2498 - why put an unquestionably correct moral decision in with all the acts of random assholery that May suggests?
well, while rubbing his balls on one of the plates would obviously be the right thing to do morally, it's probably prohibited by some sort of workplace regulation.
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KOK

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Maybe he should have compromised and rubbed just one ball on a plate.
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TinPenguin

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Now I think of it, I'm amazed at how quickly she went from not wanting to see his undoubtedly disgusting schlong to encouraging him to get his balls out in public.
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SageJiraiya

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I'm feeling worried about Dale.  :-\
I mean I saw someone mention it earlier, but he always wears those glasses. He hides his eyes and hides his feelings, and I'm worried how bunched-up those feelings must be.

I gotta give Jeph props, since May is an excellent plot element to force Dale to come to terms with himself, and reveal more about himself to the readers.

I can't say I care much for May. So far she's made an ass out of herself, but I wonder about her background. How did she end up with this job? Is it her first time doing it?

When you look at Dale's eyes in that last panel, he looks absolutely sick of it. All of it. I recognize those eyes, and that kind of frustration can be dangerous.

I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT COMIC.  :mrgreen:
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Might there be some reasonable explanation for how Dickmouth Stinkface acts?
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KOK

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If so, she must have wanted him to switch off. That does not seem likely.

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kyomi

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Well.. May is fairly new and this is a beta test. I take that as, she's as prepared as she can be without finally interacting and learning from being with a human. There is obviously going to be some screw ups here and there before everything can be ironed out. As far as I know.. none of the AntroPC's are or have been in a beta state until May (even thought she is AI :) )

It can be very interesting even though only Dale can interact with her.. he made the point about it looking like he was crazy ;).. so maybe he goes the to coffee shop one day and May provokes him.. that's just endless hours of fun right there :evil:
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westrim

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I've apparently fallen into a pattern of creating the thread, then holding off and observing until the end of the week and posting a giant post of my thoughts. It probably has something to do with starting to read it on a smartphone (which is not logged into the forum) instead of waiting till I get home to read and respond. Here's the one for this week.

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Holo puns
I tried to stay away from entries that weren't references to individuals (Gram and Day are grandma and Felicia), so while the Holocene may be epoch, it did not qualify. I'm surprised the comic references didn't get more votes- even Station did middling.

I wish to assume that "ro-" is Rodia.

Not real impressed with a society that treats an intelligent entity like that.
You're right, she is treating him pretty rudely.
A much better response than I thought of on Monday.

Not a single mention of one of the most infamous holograms out there ... Holy .... for shame .... Bring your geek cards to the desk for summary shredding.
Since we cannot read minds, what are you referring to?

Cycling through the months as names for her would have been more amusing, but our Lord and Amuser Jeph can't think of everything.

Interesting how some months are acceptable as names and some aren't. January Jones is the only January I know of, but April through July (Julia/Julius) are fairly common, and August isn't unheard of.
It's mostly about the root of the name and the seasonal connotations, I imagine.

Interesting how some months are acceptable as names and some aren't. January Jones is the only January I know of, but April through July (Julia/Julius) are fairly common, and August isn't unheard of.
Image of the robots named after the 12 months from Coyote Ragtime Show.
Aw man, don't mention that anime, it's depressing; the first episode is excellent, a taut thriller about an intelligent female detective and her spunky sidekick looking for a mass murdering (shown on screen during the series to directly cause the indiscriminate deaths of police, soldiers, prisoners, prison guards, and part of a city via tsunami) robber hiding in a prison and coming into conflict with the 12 robot assassins of a woman who wants revenge, not justice... only for it to be revealed that he's the protagonist, and the next 11 episodes follow him instead. Oh, and the detective is swooningly in love with him, because he looked cool surfing that murdering tsunami wave apparently.

I think perhaps Perfectly Reasonable was proposing that major corporations with a monopoly on the creation of said lifeforms might deem it acceptable. Ŕ la Kara.
Aw man, don't mention that video, it's awesome but also depressing because we'll likely never see Karas story continue.

Sentience is a scale on which anything that experiences stimuli, but it's other factors like self awareness that make something worthy of legal rights. I avoid killing things if I don't need to, but that's because of general respect for life, not specific consideration for the individual radish, spider, or mouse. I need to eat, thus I am fine with consuming carrots and chickens.

Sentience is a wonky concept to begin with.
Indeed it is, which is why I believe we should be careful about denying it.
We should be just as careful about granting it.

On chiropractors, much of the criticism of them is based on a mistaken comparison with doctors (even if chiropractics makes that same mistake due to it being descended from genuine bullshit). A more valid comparison is with massage therapy, and they provide a useful service for those who want something more professional than a massage and more accessible and wallet friendly than, and whose doctors are overly inclined to pills rather than individual and physical treatment (like Garands experience).

Homeopathy however is still objectively bullshit, and potentially harmful bullshit as the previously cited examples of adulterated products show. Usefulness as a placebo for the gullible human mind doesn't change that, because damn near anything can be a placebo. That's not even getting into the moral and financial bullshittiness of it. If a placebo is needed, there are sugar pills.

"Give her time..."  -- Pinkie Pie
What does a comment made by millions of people and hundreds if not thousands of pieces of media have to do with a childrens cartoon specifically?

Either  that. or it's Microsoft.
That's IT! "May" is WINDOWS 8!!!!!
More likely a forgotten subroutine of Vista
Considering how annoying she is, I'd say more like Clippy. With a female version of Gilbert Gottfried's voice.
You mean May, Vista, Windows 8, and Clippy are all unfairly savaged in disregard of objective data due to the duplicity of hardware manufacturers, easily bypassable user interface quirks, and the unwillingness of competent users to take the trivially easy step to permanently disable the help tool for incompetent users?

So, Dale is a Gunnm fan...

In any case, the big question is whether May is still conscious when disconnected.
And then, if she is, is it ethical to disconnect her.
Reminds me of the ST:Voyager episode in which the holodeck characters acquire sentience and independence (yes, I watched ST:V. Sue me.).
Or the whole "am I human if I have a chip instead of a brain?" conundrum in Gunnm and Gunnm Last Order (relevant...).
I won't sue you, I'll ask you why you expect that reaction. It was a decent show- some problems with getting anywhere and not usually groundbreaking and with malleable ethics, but the acting and most episodes were fine.

I'll also ask why you refer to Battle Angel Alita by its Japanese title.

Same for Chiropractice or whatever it's spelled -- beside their crackpot claims (on the same level as homeopathy), don't go to one instead of an actual physical therapist -- there have been numerous cases of severe spinal injury by "chiropracticers" (EDIT: I think they call themselves "chiropractors"), as they are not legally subject to licensing. Same with "nutritionist" rather than dietician -- the latter is subject to legal regulation in most places.
I'm not sure why I should consider the opinion of someone who so forcefully criticizes something they apparently don't know enough about to name correctly (especially when they are voicing that opinion using a machine that makes that knowledge trivial to obtain).

If lobsters sign up for the forum we will treat them with decency and respect.
Well said. And then I'd have to revise my definition of "person" to be more inclusive.
When the facts change, I change my opinions.
This is fundamental to many conversations in regard to things with scientific proof that get viewed with undue skepticism and bears repeating as much as possible. Science changes with evidence.

I finally registered today, basically to to say that I feel bad for May :(

I think she's cute and would love to have her.. instead of Dale that seems to just.. abuse her :/

I thought it was pretty interesting how she seems to have a mind of her own and not "set" in one way or another. It would be fun to hang out with her :)
From the get go she has abused him (counting the sudden and unasked for appearance in his view) and insulted him and complained and suggested criminal and job ending actions, and he has responded as mutedly as he could. He spent an entire day with her, to our perspective doing nothing but shooting down the aforementioned bad suggestions, before he reached his tolerance limit. The one time she acted helpful, it was by rattling off functions in an annoying manner. And she's hiding something. I'm still reserving judgement, but she's literally not said one kind, cute, or even neutral thing. I'm expecting that when we see her again, we'll also see another side to her that explains her belligerent behavior and is decent- still crass probably, but decent.

There is a bit of tethercat principle going on here because every time we look we only see the bad stuff she says, not the in between stuff, the long silences just watching him work, and so on.

(I suspect Dale was still sore from being ditched at the diner, but anyway)
I'm not sure that this is necessarily in sequence.

Not sure why many comments seem to assume May is turned off or in limbo or even dead. All he did was disable his ability to see and hear her, which would have happened anyway when he went to sleep. She may still be perfectly capable of using the sensors on the glasses, surf the web, and anything else except interact with him (unless she gets creative with the aforementioned internet access.)As for her expression, she's panicking- it'd look the same whether she was being rendered unconscious or getting her bullshit called out.

/megacomment
« Last Edit: 27 Jul 2013, 19:17 by Westrim »
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celticgeek

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It seems like Jeph, who mentioned that he had no idea how to spend the rest of the day, has chosen to come in and change the names of some of the forum topics. 

How fun.
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KOK

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As far as I can see, Dale has done nothing worse than hanging up on an anoying salesman.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2013, 00:53 by KOK »
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Nice animated effect.

I agree, I wish I'd seen how he did it.
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FunkyTuba

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It seems likely to me that this is a set-up of some kind. I suspect May is (possibly unwittingly) doing the dirty work of Someone Else. She seems to be showing signs of being abused...but not by Dale--by whoever or whatever is in "ro-".

Haven't seen a true intrigue plot out of Jeph in some time, and I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this one unfold.

The animated effect is quite nice... it didn't show up right on my phone so I didn't notice it until it was mentioned in this thread.
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Carl-E

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It seems likely to me that this is a set-up of some kind. I suspect May is (possibly unwittingly) doing the dirty work of Someone Else. She seems to be showing signs of being abused...but not by Dale--by whoever or whatever is in "ro-".

Haven't seen a true intrigue plot out of Jeph in some time, and I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this one unfold. in this thread.

That's it! 

She's a slave laborer AI in a sweatshop in ro-wherever, and Dale will be starting a quest to rescue them (there has to be more than one, no?) and expose this problem of the lack of AI rights in other parts of the world...

Y'know, it sounds less and less likely the more I type it out.  Oh, well.  It won't happen anyway now that I've said it.
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When people try to speak a gut reaction, they end up talking out their ass.

Is it cold in here?

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That's making more and more sense, actually. AI rights almost certainly vary around the world.

Though, what stops an AI from emigrating? Somebody made of bits who has an Internet connection could be anywhere in the world within seconds.
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kyomi

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From the get go she has abused him (counting the sudden and unasked for appearance in his view) and insulted him and complained and suggested criminal and job ending actions, and he has responded as mutedly as he could. He spent an entire day with her, to our perspective doing nothing but shooting down the aforementioned bad suggestions, before he reached his tolerance limit. The one time she acted helpful, it was by rattling off functions in an annoying manner. And she's hiding something. I'm still reserving judgement, but she's literally not said one kind, cute, or even neutral thing. I'm expecting that when we see her again, we'll also see another side to her that explains her belligerent behavior and is decent- still crass probably, but decent.

There is a bit of tethercat principle going on here because every time we look we only see the bad stuff she says, not the in between stuff, the long silences just watching him work, and so on.

I see yours and everyone elses opinion as not without validation but.. I just seem to identify with her for some reason.
She has said he was the 15th person.. (maybe there was more?) so she's a bit upset... but I thought it would be funny having those suggestions throughout the day. Maybe she was going on about that just to fill the silence? About all Dale has said to her all day was "no" and not even talking with her :/

I realize I'm probably the only one with this view but that's what makes it interesting :)
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Salty

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I'll also ask why you refer to Battle Angel Alita by its Japanese title.
Because it's simpler.

Oh, and the whole translation name change thing.
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J

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personally, i find her needless belligerence to be completely adorable
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HiEv

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Basically I am a HUGE fan of companies actually selling medication for illnesses I actually have

As am I, provided that the medicine is very safe, usually effective, and reasonably priced.  Homeopathy is neither effective nor reasonably priced, and occasionally it isn't even safe either.

Homeopathy is basically a scam that persists due to momentum, not because it has any real value.
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Neko_Ali

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As far as AI's immigrating... It may not be possible. The software that is required to run an AI may be to big and complex to be transferred entirely over the internet. Even then  you would only be making a copy, the original would have to be deleted... a thinking, feeling program may have problems with that, even knowing there is a copy if itself out there. They may not even consider a copy to be the same person. Each hardware setup will be different, so it could be like having different physical brains to them... They wouldn't feel it was the same them if their software was installed in different hardware.
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Pilchard123

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Each hardware setup will be different, so it could be like having different physical brains to them... They wouldn't feel it was the same them if their software was installed in different hardware.

What about Momo?

EDIT about 3 seconds later: I suppose the hardware running the AI could be moved between chassis, with standard connections.
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Arancaytar

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Well yeah, her consciousness might still be running. That is actually what I'm afraid of. Think of being consciously awake, but being cut off from every kind of sensation. Being awake while not seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or feeling anything. That seems to me like a nightmare that can drive people/conscious AI mad.

Yeah, that happened in Schlock Mercenary last year.
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She's being held captive... somehow... in the city of Rowanapur (look it up)
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I built the walls that make my life a prison, I built them all and cannot be forgiven... ...Sold my soul to carry your vendetta, So let me go before you can regret it, You've made your choice and now it's come to this, But that's price you pay when you're a monster with no name.

Is it cold in here?

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Pintsize ran more or less the same when backed up to a desktop computer.
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Carl-E

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The desktop was probably newer. 

However, backwards compatibility is not always guaranteed. 
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Shjade

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Maybe she was going on about that just to fill the silence? About all Dale has said to her all day was "no" and not even talking with her :/

Well, since pretty much all she's said to him are things to which "No" is the only sensible response...what would you expect? You think he should have a one-way (to anyone in earshot it would appear this way, given they don't know he's talking to a person they can't see or know is there) conversation with his unsolicited AI companion about the ethics of rubbing genitalia on plates?

Yeah, I'm sure that would go over real well. "No" is the only thing he could say to his imaginary friend while he's at work, and even that much might have his co-workers asking, "Why do you keep saying 'no' so much?"
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westrim

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I'll also ask why you refer to Battle Angel Alita by its Japanese title.
Because it's simpler.

Oh, and the whole translation name change thing.
I don't find it simpler. Shorter, yes, but that's not the same thing. A portmanteau of 'gun' and a word representing a word representing 'dream' isn't simple. The English version is quite straightforward in comparison.

What whole translation name change thing? I mean, I am aware of the conversation around the vagaries of translation, but not where you stand on it. I don't mind changes so long as the author is fine with them and they don't obscure or dumb it down.
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Salty

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I'll also ask why you refer to Battle Angel Alita by its Japanese title.
Because it's simpler.

Oh, and the whole translation name change thing.
I don't find it simpler. Shorter, yes, but that's not the same thing. A portmanteau of 'gun' and a word representing a word representing 'dream' isn't simple. The English version is quite straightforward in comparison.

What whole translation name change thing? I mean, I am aware of the conversation around the vagaries of translation, but not where you stand on it. I don't mind changes so long as the author is fine with them and they don't obscure or dumb it down.
Her name is only Alita in the translated version. In the original her name is Gally.

And this is just me speculating, but I think of it as because it's the title that both fans of the un-name-changed series and the ones of the name-changed series more familiar with its past recognize.

As for me personally, I only think of the first half of the series as Battle Angel Alita. That's probably because I first read it as the English-translated version, but eh.

Gunnm really is a much shorter name, though. Less title fatigue for me to remember.
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Indicible

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Indeed, Gally is the true name for the heroine in Gunnm. As far as I know, the name was inverted with her "girly" name, precisely because it did not sound feminine to Anglo-saxon audiences (I would have said American, except I do not know if it was translated in the UK.).
Gally was the name of Ido's cat, there was even a joke in the first volume about it being a male. But Kishiro actually gave that name to his character.
All the European translations I have seen (Germany, France, Sweden and Spain) use the name of Gally.
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KOK

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She's being held captive... somehow... in the city of Rowanapur (look it up)

Google search finds four pages, of which only one actually mentions the word. Obviously that is this page, WCDT: 2495-2499 (22-26 July, 2013) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
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Carl-E

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It suggested Roanapur for me, which is a fictional city in Thailand from Black Lagoon. 

Sounds about right. 
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Kugai

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