Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[seinfeldtheme]

 It always seemed to me like being a financially secure person using your fans to fund your little vanity projects is somewhat exploitative and definitely in bad taste but your mileage may vary I guess. What do you guys think?

[BeoPuppy]

I have to wonder whether you bring this up because of the kickstarter performed by our gracious host Jeph today?

I can't imagine he has very deep pockets, to be honest, so his Kickstarter I think is 'legit'.

However, if you have the money than you should use it.

[seinfeldtheme]

Well in that particular case, Jeph "earns six figures from his webcomic", so it seems like this is a relatively affordable vanity project for a healthy, childless dude and soliciting donations from fans is therefore somewhat unseemly

but of course Jeph isn't the only person using Kickstarter this way and we don't need to focus on him

[Barmymoo]

How do you know how much Jeph earns? I may have missed something but I don't remember ever knowing that.

The fans who have contributed to the Kickstarter campaign are getting something in return, it's not like he just straight up asked for money. Why should we judge people's choices about what to spend their money on? You could say that any successful musician releasing an album is a "vanity project" but no one objects to that.

Kickstarter is a really interesting way to go about creating new things. It cuts out the middleman, it determines the market for a product before expenditure, and it provides a way for people to truly engage in the process. I'm not interested in metal music, but if for example my favourite blogger Jack Monroe had launched a Kickstarter for her recipe book (she didn't, it's being published the traditional way) I'd have supported that like a shot, for a chance to be part of the process. I'd probably have given more money than the book will cost to purchase.

[seinfeldtheme]

How do you know how much Jeph earns? I may have missed something but I don't remember ever knowing that.

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/articles/2011/08/02/the_new_webcomic_entrepreneurs/

The fans who have contributed to the Kickstarter campaign are getting something in return, it's not like he just straight up asked for money.[ Why should we judge people's choices about what to spend their money on? You could say that any successful musician releasing an album is a "vanity project" but no one objects to that.

most successful musicians don't ask you for money to finance recording

donating five bucks to this thing doesn't even get you a copy of the album

Kickstarter is a really interesting way to go about creating new things. It cuts out the middleman, it determines the market for a product before expenditure, and it provides a way for people to truly engage in the process. I'm not interested in metal music, but if for example my favourite blogger Jack Monroe had launched a Kickstarter for her recipe book (she didn't, it's being published the traditional way) I'd have supported that like a shot, for a chance to be part of the process. I'd probably have given more money than the book will cost to purchase.

what middleman? he's a dude with a lot of money who wants to go to a studio and record something. how does the process change with this method vs. jeph financing it himself, besides what comes out of his own pocket?

i find "giving somebody money" a low threshold for "engaging in the process" of creating something but again, your mileage may vary

[Barmymoo]

You know what's great about Kickstarter? If you don't like the idea, you don't have to get involved! Isn't it great when we all have the freedom to do whatever we like with our money?

I might go out and buy fifteen kilograms of chopped almonds and scatter them across the street.

[seinfeldtheme]

well the thread isn't really about the people who would choose to spend the money, it's about the people asking for devoted fans to part with their money unnecessarily, knowing they'll get it, and dressing it up as some kind of charitable act

i guess you could make a case for defending this but it requires a lot of cognitive dissonance

[Barmymoo]

I honestly don't quite understand the problem here. Any shop keeper who displays goods and invites people to purchase them (that's the legal situation in the UK at any rate - you're inviting offers to purchase, rather than offering for sale - it might be different elsewhere) is doing precisely the same thing. Have you ever objected to the fact that Walmart or whatever is inviting you to spend your money on their products? I doubt it.

Jeph has several ways of making money and they all involve him offering something he has created and people paying him money for it. The difference between that and Walmart is that he doesn't require payment for most of what he offers.

[seinfeldtheme]

I honestly don't quite understand the problem here. Any shop keeper who displays goods and invites people to purchase them (that's the legal situation in the UK at any rate - you're inviting offers to purchase, rather than offering for sale - it might be different elsewhere) is doing precisely the same thing. Have you ever objected to the fact that Walmart or whatever is inviting you to spend your money on their products? I doubt it.

there are some pretty important differences here, not the least of which is that you don't pay Walmart for the ability to produce its own products, which can then be sold for more profit at a total cost of $0 for Walmart (but a cost of X for you). part of the reason you don't do this is because Walmart, like Jeph Jacques, has enough money to do this itself

Jeph has several ways of making money and they all involve him offering something he has created and people paying him money for it.

he hasn't created this thing he's asking money for, he's asking for money so he create it without spending money to do so (and like i said before, if you throw him five bucks, you're not even getting a copy of the thing you funded). he's asking fans to give him money, which then gives him the ability to follow his "other great passion in life". however, when you're in the financial position to follow that passion yourself, but you know that you have a lot of devoted fans of your other project who will just give you the money if you ask for it, it's hard to read that as anything other than taking advantage of those people

[ackblom12]

Kickstarter is for anyone and everyone who wishes to crowdsource their project. The amount of money they may or may not have available to themselves at any given time matters not.

Whether or not you are willing to back it or not according to how much the company or individual's net worth is is a completely different matter.

[seinfeldtheme]

Kickstarter is for anyone and everyone who wishes to crowdsource their project. The amount of money they may or may not have available to themselves at any given time matters not.

well yeah, i understand that it literally gives you the option to use it regardless of your financial state; that's not really what's up for debate here. you can also have a six-figure salary and beg on street corners if you want

Whether or not you are willing to back it or not according to how much the company or individual's net worth is is a completely different matter.

again, the people giving money aren't the issue. they can choose to spend their money however they want. what i find interesting is that jeph jacques almost certainly knew that many of his devoted fans would be willing to give him money if he asked for it (and as this thread demonstrated, not all of them realized how much money he makes from this comic), didn't actually need their money to fund his expensive hobby, and asked anyway

[Barmymoo]

But it's not really any different to a company seeking financial backing before they start a project, so that they don't bankrupt themselves if it goes wrong.

Perhaps Jeph does earn upwards of £100,000 from the comic. We don't know what his outgoings are. I personally don't know how much it costs to record an album - but we do know how much he quoted as needing on the Kickstarter. He might well not have that much spare cash. I don't know many people who live incredibly frugally unless they need to. Most people live up to their income, or just below. Many people spend over their income.

I don't think Jeph is abusing his fans in any way. You make it sound like he brainwashed them into signing over everything they own. In reality most people have simply given the cost of a single meal in a restaurant or less, in return for something they clearly value.

[seinfeldtheme]

But it's not really any different to a company seeking financial backing before they start a project, so that they don't bankrupt themselves if it goes wrong.

people who seek financial backing do so to get off the ground, not after they've already become successful and just want to start a passion project for fun on the side

Perhaps Jeph does earn upwards of £100,000 from the comic. We don't know what his outgoings are. I personally don't know how much it costs to record an album - but we do know how much he quoted as needing on the Kickstarter. He might well not have that much spare cash. I don't know many people who live incredibly frugally unless they need to. Most people live up to their income, or just below. Many people spend over their income.

I don't think Jeph is abusing his fans in any way. You make it sound like he brainwashed them into signing over everything they own. In reality most people have simply given the cost of a single meal in a restaurant or less, in return for something they clearly value.

yeah but that's generally the point of disposable income. if you want to spend it on shit like recording an album in a studio instead of in your house, you can do that. if you want to buy expensive guitars and gold vinyl Opeth repressings, you can do that instead. asking for people to fund your ability to do both is pretty tacky

i don't think he's brainwashing anybody; i just think, like i said before, it's in pretty bad taste to ask for money you don't need so you can support your hobby for free

[Barmymoo]

And like I said before, you don't know that he doesn't need it. Personally I think it's in pretty bad taste to come onto these forums and criticise the actions of the person who is funding them. It would be like coming into someone's home and criticising the resident's lifestyle.

[seinfeldtheme]

And like I said before, you don't know that he doesn't need it. Personally I think it's in pretty bad taste to come onto these forums and criticise the actions of the person who is funding them. It would be like coming into someone's home and criticising the resident's lifestyle.

nah, a six-figure salary in a household without kids should leave you with enough disposable income to make this project feasible, it just depends on how you choose to use it. this is apparently his lifelong dream, and it's certainly within his means to save up enough money to achieve it or to have started doing so when this comic started netting him that much money

and anyway, i don't know that he doesn't "need" to professionally record a metal album?

It would be like coming into someone's home and criticising the resident's lifestyle.

 i honestly have no idea whatsoever how criticizing a public figure's plea for money is in any way like entering his home and criticizing his lifestyle

you keep offering all these analogies and none of them really make sense

[Barmymoo]

Because Jeph pays for these forums.

[seinfeldtheme]

Because Jeph pays for these forums.

which forbids anyone here from casting a critical eye on anything related to jeph jacques whatsoever?

i guess this discussion could be taken to his tumblr or kickstarter page or whatever but i was interested in seeing what people here thought about it

[ackblom12]

As May has said, part of my problem with this complaint in the first place is that you're making a lot of assumptions about his finances. Otherwise, no I don't think it's not in the spirit, or wrong, for anyone at all to use Kickstarter regardless of finances. If Bill fucking Gates decided to use KS, I wouldn't care. He can present his idea and I can make a choice as to whether or not I want to be a part of the process. It's not morally wrong, though in most cases someone wealthy enough to fund this kind of stuff on their own without issue would find KS to be more effort than it's worth.

Also, $10 is a pretty normal price for a digital album. Complaining that you can't get it for $5 is just stupid. Unless the complaint is about the fact that that tier exist at all, in which case I'm thinking you're probably not real well versed in KS projects. Damn near every single Kickstarter in existence has a low tier that you can use just to keep u with the backer updates. Since you can cancel the pledge at any time, it makes it useful for backers who aren't decided yet so that they don't feel terrible for canceling and skewing the numbers too much.

[Masterpiece]

Isn't this thread more worthy of a place in Discuss!?

[seinfeldtheme]

As May has said, part of my problem with this complaint in the first place is that you're making a lot of assumptions about his finances. Otherwise, no I don't think it's not in the spirit, or wrong, for anyone at all to use Kickstarter regardless of finances. If Bill fucking Gates decided to use KS, I wouldn't care. He can present his idea and I can make a choice as to whether or not I want to be a part of the process. It's not morally wrong, though in most cases someone wealthy enough to fund this kind of stuff on their own without issue would find KS to be more effort than it's worth.

you're entitled to believe that of course, i just don't agree at all

i also think painting this kind of thing as "being part of the process" is somewhat disingenuous phrasing

Also, $10 is a pretty normal price for a digital album. Complaining that you can't get it for $5 is just stupid.

i don't think it's stupid if there's literally no financial risk involved in producing this album whatsoever. it's not like a precedent hasn't been set; radiohead, and a number of other less lucrative bands, produced albums without fan donations and asked them to pay whatever they wanted for a digital copy

[seinfeldtheme]

Isn't this thread more worthy of a place in Discuss!?

i guess

[Barmymoo]

As a hypothetical point of discussion, it might be. But it seems like a specific dig at Jeph, and the mods have always been clear about the fact that this is the equivalent of Jeph's apartment which he allows us to hang out and hold a party in, as long as we abide by his (few, simple) rules. But that is of course for the mods to call.

[seinfeldtheme]

As a hypothetical point of discussion, it might be. But it seems like a specific dig at Jeph, and the mods have always been clear about the fact that this is the equivalent of Jeph's apartment which he allows us to hang out and hold a party in, as long as we abide by his (few, simple) rules. But that is of course for the mods to call.

i mean we can talk about zach braff instead; would the conversation be any different?

[Thomas Edison]

well yeah, i understand that it literally gives you the option to use it regardless of your financial state; that's not really what's up for debate here.

The title is "is the use of Kickstarter by celebrities/ppl with plenty of money acceptable?"

I think it is acceptable because it's other people choosing to use their money for it. I don't really care how other people spend their money.

[seinfeldtheme]

well yeah, i understand that it literally gives you the option to use it regardless of your financial state; that's not really what's up for debate here.

The title is "is the use of Kickstarter by celebrities/ppl with plenty of money acceptable?".

I think it is acceptable because it's other people choosing to use their money for it. I don't really care how other people spend their money.

"acceptable" (ie. morally), not "possible"

[Thomas Edison]

That still doesn't help me see your point. No one is being taken advantage of or hurt by this so I don't see the moral problem.

[seinfeldtheme]

That still doesn't help me see your point. No one is being taken advantage of or hurt by this so I don't see the moral problem.

if you read the thread i feel like i laid out my objections to this pretty thoroughly

[Barmymoo]

i mean we can talk about zach braff instead; would the conversation be any different?

Well for a start there'd be fewer contributions from me because I have no idea who that is.

[ackblom12]

Backing a KS, typically, allows you to see and hear about certain aspects of a project that the public usually never gets to see or hear about. It absolutely makes you a part of the process. And yes, saying that Jeph or anyone else should charge less than anyone else because 'they don't need the money' is incredibly stupid. $10 is a perfectly normal and fair price for a digital album. He is not charging an exorbitant price for the product, it is the standard cost. I really don't care if you speak critically of something Jeph does, he seems to be a good person but he's not a personal friend of mine. You're framing of this and you're responses so far seem much more like you just want people to agree with you and join in on complaining about it. You just really don't seem interested in discussing anything.

[pwhodges]

Isn't this thread more worthy of a place in Discuss!?

No.  Frankly, it's not worth a place anywhere - but I'll leave it here for you to judge.