Topic: To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before (Read 160515 times)

jwhouk · « **Reply #50 on:** 19 Jun 2014, 17:57 »

I do want to point out that I wasn't trying to be condescending. I am pointing out that too many people focus on the "Wow, the Enterprise shoots its phasers and wipes out the Klingons and Romulans!" and not on the interactions between Kirk, Spock and Bones.

When Star Trek failed miserably was when it focused on the technology, not the story. This was why ST:TMP was seen as such a huge failure/disappointment when it came out, and TWOK was seen as the much better film.

~~mustang6172~~ · « **Reply #51 on:** 19 Jun 2014, 19:22 »

Quote from: jwhouk on 18 Jun 2014, 21:00

I think that's the major thing about it: TOS and TNG were written before the fall of the Berlin Wall. You who were born after 1990 have no idea what it was like, thinking that the world could conceivably end at any time, just because someone pushed a button.

Star Trek was a glimmer of hope through all this. We can get to the stars. We will get to the stars. We will explore new worlds; we will seek out new life forms, new civilizations - and befriend them, peacefully.

That was more important to us than anything: we will get through this. Sadly, it's something lacking in today's world.

People still think the world is going to Hell, Berlin Wall or not.

TMP failed because it was boring!

Speaking of those whales you mentioned earlier:

Why aren't the whales ours to do with as we please? What happened to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?"

jwhouk · « **Reply #52 on:** 19 Jun 2014, 20:42 »

Prime Directive, I'd guess.

Whales, it is inferred, were determined to have a sufficiently-high intelligence level that they could possibly become a species that would reach warp-tech level of society. (I know, I know.)

jwhouk · « **Reply #53 on:** 19 Jun 2014, 21:04 »

Something you learn, years after the fact:

When I was in college, I liked reading the Pocket Books Star Trek novelizations, as they were a way of imagining the voyages of the Enterprise and her crew while waiting for the next installment of the movies (or for the new TV series, at that point) to come out. As I wasn't as big into the FanFic and Zines at that time, this was my way of being a Trekkie.

My favorite book in the series - which, from what I understand, is still going - was an installment known as How Much For Just The Planet?. It was a book written by Jon M. "Mike" Ford, who combined both the intrigue and the characters together to make a romp of a story on a planet that was still being referred to in later books and novels.

There was one thing that always puzzled me in the opening dedication: Ford had mentioned that the book was dedicated to "its special guest stars", one of which was "Neil, who wanted a walk-on." Little did I know until I read up on the late Mr. Ford as to whom exactly Neil - who was apparently the role of "Ilen the Magian" in the book - was.

(click to show/hide)

J · « **Reply #54 on:** 20 Jun 2014, 07:23 »

Quote from: mustang6172 on 19 Jun 2014, 19:22

Why aren't the whales ours to do with as we please? What happened to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?"

well, one of the main conceits of the story is that the whales are sapient, intelligent animals. as such taking them against their will & forcing them to preform a task would essentially be slavery. 'needs of the many' could certainly justify that, but given that they want the whales to talk to the probe, it's probably best to have their willing cooperation. after all, it'd be a bit of a downer ending if their first message to it was "Nuke these motherfuckers!"

also, shatner cracks me the hell up in that scene. he is shatnering so damn hard, without even saying a word.

jwhouk · « **Reply #55 on:** 20 Jun 2014, 07:47 »

He was acting. You know, playing a role he'd been given to play nearly 25 years prior?

J · « **Reply #56 on:** 20 Jun 2014, 07:52 »

i am aware of that. simply saying that i enjoy his shatnery performance as he reacts to spock mind melding with the whales.

~~mustang6172~~ · « **Reply #57 on:** 20 Jun 2014, 18:40 »

And he can Shatner so much harder than that.

But the greatest moment of all...

ankhtahr · « **Reply #58 on:** 20 Jun 2014, 19:02 »

This was shown to me today:

I'll just leave it here.

Kugai · « **Reply #59 on:** 20 Jun 2014, 23:45 »

I wish you hadn't

*Reaches for Neuralaizer*

~~mustang6172~~ · « **Reply #60 on:** 28 Jun 2014, 21:14 »

When did startrek.com take down hundreds of episodes?

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #61 on:** 29 Jun 2014, 11:29 »

Couple of interesting facts about Voyager:

While Janeway is believed by many to be the most poorly written Captain in the franchise, Kate Mulgrew has spoken out and said she believes that Janeway is at best bipolar and at worst suffering from a severe mental illness due to the stress of Voyager's situation.
As hated as Neelix might be, Ethan Phillips did have to endure 4 hours of heavy prosthetic make-up everyday he was film, often starting several hours before everyone arrived on set and spent a great deal of time in front of a burning hot oven.
Kate Mulgrew was only brought in because Geneieve Bujold, who had originally been signed on to play Nicole Janeway, quit after three days filming. Presumably because Bujold was a film actress and not used to the intensity of filming a series. Funnily enough, this was considered the best move the producers made concerning the series.
The adjusted budget of Voyager's pilot episode was more than the budget for filming the Wrath of Khan.
Harry Kim had been slated to die between Season 3 and 4 to make room for Jeri Ryan, but when he featured in an Entertainment Weekly top 100 list, the producers forced the scriptwriters to keep Garret Wang and to get rid of Jennifer Lien instead.
Susie Plakson, who played the Female Q and told Torres she always liked Klingon women because they had spunk, also played K'Ehleyr in the Next Generation. Who was also a Human/Klingon hybrid like Torres.
Voyager had originally been slated to be a much darker series, with elements and episodes intended to last entire seasons, such as the Year of Hell had been intended to actually last the whole of season 4. The executives at UPN vetoed any such idea and wanted to see TNG type ratings, but with none of the character conflict, hence why we ended up with what people call TNG-lite. The episode "The Void" which aired near the end of Voyager, gave a glimpse of what the show could have been.

[li]While played for laughs, the episode "Author, Author", is considered by many to be one of the most reviled episodes of Voyager because of the Mark 1 EMHs were repurposed into what could effectively be called a slave labour force. Especially in light of the Next Generation episode "Measure of a Man".
[/li][/list]

Voyager might be one of the weaker parts of the franchise, but if you read about how much trouble to production crew had and how much crap they had to put up with from the executives, you might see the series in a better light.
But that's like lighting a match in a pitch black cave.

jwhouk · « **Reply #62 on:** 29 Jun 2014, 11:47 »

The biggest problem with Voyager was that it was seen as "Lost In Space meets Trek." And, generally, Trek fans were not fans of LIS, and vice-versa.

Kugai · « **Reply #63 on:** 29 Jun 2014, 17:01 »

Like Enterprise, there was so much potential for Voyager to go in an entirely different direction - especially since the ship was essentually cut loose from the Federation by being thrown into an entirely different region of the Galaxy. It's a pity that the assholes in charge at Paramount didn't have the balls to take it into new territory.

to Voyager, the series that launched a thousand Femslash Fics

jwhouk · « **Reply #64 on:** 29 Jun 2014, 17:54 »

And made Jeri Ryan what she is today.

Kugai · « **Reply #65 on:** 29 Jun 2014, 22:29 »

Thrillho · « **Reply #66 on:** 30 Jun 2014, 01:00 »

Isn't there a meme about Voyager only having three plots? Like 'hey maybe this will get us home, no shit now we're even further away again' and 'hey maybe these aliens will help us NOPE' and then 'Borg. Just Borg' and that was it?

Lupercal · « **Reply #67 on:** 30 Jun 2014, 03:07 »

I think so. Also fucking over other alien species because halfway through a mission the prime directive has suddenly become very important. Which I always find quite funny because Janeway is constantly harping on about how this isn't a normal Federation starship and this now motley crew of Federation and Marquis crewmen must learn to get along in a strange new quadrant! Then it's like no, we must be ambassadors for Starfleet everywhere we go when it suits us the most.

And then there are the classic Star Trek filler episodes, involving Q or the holodeck.

~~GarandMarine~~ · « **Reply #68 on:** 30 Jun 2014, 05:37 »

Hey now anything involving John de Lancie is a good thing

BeoPuppy · « **Reply #69 on:** 30 Jun 2014, 07:18 »

Never felt Q episodes as filler.

~~mustang6172~~ · « **Reply #70 on:** 30 Jun 2014, 19:27 »

Quote

Harry Kim had been slated to die between Season 3 and 4 to make room for Jeri Ryan, but when he featured in an Entertainment Weekly top 100 list, the producers forced the scriptwriters to keep Garret Wang and to get rid of Jennifer Lien instead.

I thought Jennifer Lien quit because she was allergic to the makeup.

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #71 on:** 30 Jun 2014, 21:13 »

Apparently it had always been a choice between Garrett and Jennifer towards the end of Season 3, with the producers leaning towards keeping Jennifer due to the mandate of making the alien characters more interesting than the humans.

Ultimately though, it seems as though there were several reasons why Jennifer Lien was let go; the character really wasn't working out after three years, the producers wanted to take the show in a different direction (hence why Kes got vamped up in the latter half of season 3), to Jennifer feeling she was missing out on her son growing up and wanting to spent time with him.

Lupercal · « **Reply #72 on:** 01 Jul 2014, 03:42 »

Most of the Q episodes are great (have yet to see DS9, so there's that), but the most recent one I saw, Death Wish (VOY S2E18) includes a second Q that wants to kill himself - I just didn't feel like it went anywhere. It also felt like Jonathon Frakes was pointlessly shoehorned in, too...

On the plus side those episodes do have a lot of humour and a bit of the campness which makes Star Trek great to watch.

~~GarandMarine~~ · « **Reply #73 on:** 01 Jul 2014, 04:56 »

More Riker is always a good thing #mancrushtuesday

Lupercal · « **Reply #74 on:** 01 Jul 2014, 08:49 »

Wouldn't it be great to have a show dedicated to Q being a complete dick?

"After I turned up, they started calling it the Cuntinuum"

Pilchard123 · « **Reply #75 on:** 01 Jul 2014, 12:04 »

Apparently, the reason that Riker/MoM sat on chairs the way he did was because Frakes had a back injury that made it difficult or uncomfortable to sit 'normally'.

[/pointless]

BeoPuppy · « **Reply #76 on:** 01 Jul 2014, 13:28 »

Quote from: Lupercal on 01 Jul 2014, 03:42

Most of the Q episodes are great (have yet to see DS9, so there's that), but the most recent one I saw, Death Wish (VOY S2E18) includes a second Q that wants to kill himself - I just didn't feel like it went anywhere. It also felt like Jonathon Frakes was pointlessly shoehorned in, too...

On the plus side those episodes do have a lot of humour and a bit of the campness which makes Star Trek great to watch.

The Q episode where he tries to get Janeway to have a kid with him ... All sorts of awesome.

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #77 on:** 01 Jul 2014, 16:53 »

While the Next Generation storyline where parasites infiltrated Starfleet was not well received, it was supposed to lead into a much larger Borg related storyline, where the parasites were intended to be agents of the Borg. Unfortunately, due to how the storyline was received and a writer's strike in 1988 as well as budget cuts, the connection between the Borg and the parasites was never made.

Kugai · « **Reply #78 on:** 01 Jul 2014, 18:28 »

I always thought they missed an oppatunity with Voyager.

Here was a Federation Starship - and not a large one at that, more a Science/Scout/Patrol Frigate, not a Heavy Cruiser like the Enterprise suddenly thrown 70,000 light years from the Federation and completely cut off from contact with the Federation and essentially thrown into 'The Bad Side Of Town' Galaxy wise.

It would have been great for the first two seasons to see them struggle with maintaining their Federation ideals, only to eventually realise that, while it's good to have such ideals and regulations to act as a base and to keep them centered, here in the 'Wild West', they're going to have to adapt if they're gonna survive against races that aren't going to play by those rules, and see Janeway adapt in Marquis tactics in order for them to survive and get home.

The whole thing with The Borg would have been more interesting too had they done so too. I still could see Seven joining the crew, but in an entirely different way.

BeoPuppy · « **Reply #79 on:** 02 Jul 2014, 14:55 »

Yeah, but, see, all those borg prostetics would hide Seven's tits and this is Star Trek so we can't have that.

Kugai · « **Reply #80 on:** 02 Jul 2014, 21:24 »

Not what I meant

BeoPuppy · « **Reply #81 on:** 02 Jul 2014, 22:24 »

Well, as long as nothing gets in the way there ... what did you mean?

Kugai · « **Reply #82 on:** 03 Jul 2014, 17:27 »

I basically meant that if they had gone down the route I mention in my original Post, I think the way that whole business with the Borg would have had a slightly different beginning/middle/end - especially if, by that stage, Janeway had taken the proverbial brakes off how they were operating in the Delta Quadrant.

Also, B/7

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #83 on:** 04 Jul 2014, 00:21 »

Funnily enough, the Equinox episodes showed what happened if a Federation ship did disregard their ideals and it wasn't pretty.
Which is exactly what Voyager should have been if the executives hadn't vetoed the producers ideas for a darker Star Trek.

jwhouk · « **Reply #84 on:** 04 Jul 2014, 05:17 »

I don't like the idea of a Darker, Edgier Star Trek (as stated previously).

Kugai · « **Reply #85 on:** 04 Jul 2014, 15:01 »

I think Equinox could have worked in context with Voyager as I Posted about as well.

We could see a Voyager that, while cutting loose on certain aspects of what is expected of a Federation Crew and Starship, still maintaining a certain level of 'Moral High Ground' so to speak running across the Equinox which, as you saw in the series, had completely abandoned every Federation principle, with Janeway and the crew going slightly Ahab on Ransom and his crew and wondering if they could have sunk that low themselves.

Aziraphale · « **Reply #86 on:** 08 Jul 2014, 22:04 »

Quote from: jwhouk on 04 Jul 2014, 05:17

I don't like the idea of a Darker, Edgier Star Trek (as stated previously).

I'm with you to a degree, since that optimism is one of the things that hooked me on all things Trek (except the Abrams crap) from a very young age. On the other hand, I don't think that we're ever as far removed from our darker impulses as we'd like to believe. Even a Utopian society has its dark underbelly, and it's not like you just arrive at your idealized destination and say, "Okay, now that that's done, what's for lunch?"

Where Voyager disappointed me to some degree was that it spent a bit too much time being too sure of the answers, instead of diving into the questions. What does the Prime Directive mean when you're nearly a light-century from home? Do you re-evaluate your relationship to your ideals, and if so, what does that look like? And if you try to stick to the "old" way of doing things, how do you reconcile your imperfections (and worse) with your ideals? Whether in spite of or because of all our shortcomings, those things make for compelling storytelling. They would also have been a throwback to TOS, in that the original series, as hamfisted and campy as it could be sometimes, still looked beyond and outside itself, sometimes holding up a mirror and other times a magnifying glass to our past and present even if it was exploring it in the future tense. In that sense, at least, Voyager always seemed like a lost opportunity, with its ending only hinting at what could have been (Janeway's actions in the finale tiptoe to the outer edges of what Kugai suggests above).

hedgie · « **Reply #87 on:** 08 Jul 2014, 22:41 »

The comments re: Voyager make me rather surprised that no one has pointed this out:

judemorrigan · « **Reply #88 on:** 09 Jul 2014, 09:11 »

Quote from: jwhouk on 17 Jun 2014, 05:54

The worst episode of Enterprise is better than either ST reboot movie.

As deeply flawed as the Abrams movies were, I maintain that Dear Doctor was the most despicable Star Trek ever written. Let's have our "heroes" commit genocide based on a parody of evolutionary theory that would make a creationist proud!

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #89 on:** 09 Jul 2014, 09:48 »

Then again, episodes like that did showcase exactly why Starfleet and later the Federation had to have the Prime Directive. Because it was too easy for Captains to get involved with races that weren't ready to join the galaxy and altering them in a fundamental way.

Now, I do agree that particular episode was still crap, but like a lot of the current era episodes of Star Trek, they had a good idea but they just couldn't follow through with it.

judemorrigan · « **Reply #90 on:** 09 Jul 2014, 11:08 »

Quote from: TheEvilDog on 09 Jul 2014, 09:48

Then again, episodes like that did showcase exactly why Starfleet and later the Federation had to have the Prime Directive. Because it was too easy for Captains to get involved with races that weren't ready to join the galaxy and altering them in a fundamental way.

It did a much better job of showcasing what a morally bankrupt practice the rigid adherence to their Prime Directive can be than it did showcasing why it's a good thing. Archer's decision in the episode was *evil*.

Kugai · « **Reply #91 on:** 09 Jul 2014, 14:47 »

Which is one of the reasons why I love some of the big FanFics I'm a fan of where they throw the rulebook out the nearest Airlock.

~~mustang6172~~ · « **Reply #92 on:** 10 Jul 2014, 20:08 »

Quote from: judemorrigan on 09 Jul 2014, 09:11

I maintain that Dear Doctor was the most despicable Star Trek ever written.

I maintain the most despicable Star Trek episode to be The Omega Glory. Kirk, Spock, and McCoy wonder at how the Kohms can build a functioning civilization without being white. Nevermind the fact that the origins of this parallel civilization are never explained!

~~mustang6172~~ · « **Reply #93 on:** 10 Jul 2014, 20:11 »

I almost forgot the most racist episode of them all: Code of Honor.

jwhouk · « **Reply #94 on:** 10 Jul 2014, 20:30 »

Spock's Brain AINEC.

Kugai · « **Reply #95 on:** 12 Jul 2014, 16:08 »

Two years hard work and fund grafting, and the creators of Star Trek Continues and Starship Farragut put together the most complete recreation of the original Desilu Soundstage.

Lupercal · « **Reply #96 on:** 14 Jul 2014, 02:51 »

I'm not too well versed in Star Trek fan projects, but just how many films or TV shows are trying to be made under the name 'Star Trek' right now?

Kugai · « **Reply #97 on:** 14 Jul 2014, 15:35 »

In Process or Continuing Production

Horizon
Axanar
Star Trek Continues/Phase II
Starship Farragut
Renegades
Titan

Completed Fan Works

Of Gods and Men
Odyssey
Hidden Frontier
Aurora

That's just off the top of my head.

jwhouk · « **Reply #98 on:** 14 Jul 2014, 16:40 »

To me, that says volumes about the effect of ST on people.

Kugai · « **Reply #99 on:** 14 Jul 2014, 23:57 »

And as a B5 Fan pisses me off with both Wanker Brothers and JMS being assholes about Fan Based stuff like this.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before (Read 160515 times)

TheEvilDog

TheEvilDog

TheEvilDog

TheEvilDog

TheEvilDog