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Author Topic: miscellaneous musings  (Read 251501 times)

hedgie

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3100 on: 12 Oct 2020, 18:20 »

Those who believe in nearly unlimited "free speech" have never had to spend their entire lives harassed, threatened, broken-down, or otherwise had any chance of happiness in life destroyed by the words of others.  Every one of them should check their privilege, and shove it so far up their fundament that they feel and fear what I do every day.
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"The highest treason in the USA is to say Americans are not loved, no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing there." -- Vonnegut

LeeC

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3101 on: 12 Oct 2020, 18:26 »

I think many of them don't realize it protects them from government persecution, and not their fellow citizens. Thus, they think they can throw decency out the window because its "their right" and not take into account the people around them. It's my right to shit on my front lawn but I don't do it.


So, you know how succubi are usually depicted as titillating. If they're not nude they typically are wearing some sort of lingerie to be enticing or tease their prey. I wonder what the 12th or 13th century equivalent would be. Wearing a shorter dress to show off the ankles? Pants? Short pants to show off the ankles but also to wear pants? Tops that show off the shoulders?
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You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it. - M. Gustave

hedgie

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3102 on: 12 Oct 2020, 18:52 »

IIRC, the ankles thing was mostly an American attempt to emulate the Victorians.  IIRC, in the 12th and 13th centuries, heavy cleavage, if not bare breasts were fairly common amongst the ladies.

WRT speech, I'm still bitter that apparently, according to that one pig, throwing things at a person while threatening to kill them with the means to do so is "free speech" here.  And when I was smashed over the head with a bottle of Jäger, and it was on tape, I never heard anything back from the pigs.
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"The highest treason in the USA is to say Americans are not loved, no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing there." -- Vonnegut

flfederation

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3103 on: 12 Oct 2020, 20:12 »

Those who believe in nearly unlimited "free speech" have never had to spend their entire lives harassed, threatened, broken-down, or otherwise had any chance of happiness in life destroyed by the words of others.  Every one of them should check their privilege, and shove it so far up their fundament that they feel and fear what I do every day.

Speaking personally, we were tortured and terrorised in our own homes for years, though one of the things we enjoyed upon leaving was being able to think out loud, in words of our choosing, not subject to the violent and hypocritical whims of narcissists and psychopaths for thinking the wrong thing out loud.

Trigger Warning: brief, debatably non-graphic description of very unpleasant things that took place
(click to show/hide)
What I have no patience for is cures that are worse than the disease they falsely promise to cure, but simply take over (control) the treatment of, to their own (purely coincidental) gain. That sort of display of  "concern" leading to regular power grabs is just a little too close to home.


But it's extremely difficult to legislate genuine compassion. If it's genuine, making it mandatory only complicates things. I experienced plenty of concern, year after year, much of which was required by law and which changed absolutely nothing and improved absolutely nothing.


Just like quack medicine, it was costly in terms of time and money, though it let people check off list items that something had been "properly addressed" in a useless, one-size-fits-one-size way without actually accomplishing a thing, thus prolonging (for literally years) the very problem it purported to solve.


People are being sold a bill of goods, and they aren't getting any happier-- the more that changes, the more control they demand, but where is all the good this is doing? If anything, a cure or even an improvement should produce a drop in the amount of treatment people need for the effects of the things we have eradicated. I don't think it's done anything of the sort.

I'm sure we agree (to some significant extent at least) on the problem, what I don't understand is-- the more we are forced to implement a (draconian) solution, the more it should help, right? And if it doesn't, can we maybe knock it off? Especially when it violates basic human rights-- but cmon, that part can be a side point for at least a moment.
The real treat is hearing day in and day out how this person's story matters and this person's doesn't-- and how not taking one person seriously is a moral crime but actually hearing out this other person is actually wrong, when terrible things have happened to each, but only one has problems that are currently and politically in fashion. If that's all humanity has left, you can keep it-- it's not very interesting in the big scheme of what we used to think of as progress.


Real progress goes beyond fashionable pandering and requires difficult conversations, many of which are close to getting banned by "polite" societythese days. Exactly how much emotional and psychological and domestic abuse does one person have to endure before which demographic they belong to becomes less important than what Actually Happened? Nobody knows, and too few even care these days.
« Last Edit: 12 Oct 2020, 20:52 by flfederation »
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N.N. Marf

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Freeze Peach
« Reply #3104 on: 12 Oct 2020, 20:49 »

It's my right to shit on my front lawn but I don't do it.
Ofcourse ought not have right to let stink in other's property.
according to that one pig, throwing things at a person while threatening to kill them with the means to do so is "free speech" here.  And when I was smashed over the head with a bottle of Jäger, and it was on tape, I never heard anything back from the pigs.
Free speech, but also threat. One ought not can protect against speech, but definitely ought can protect against threat. Irregarding threat credibility. (Ought not promise what not shall be fulfilled.) And (ofcourse) ought have protection against violence.
Why ``pig?''
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flfederation

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Re: Freeze Peach
« Reply #3105 on: 12 Oct 2020, 20:57 »

but definitely ought can protect against threat.

Threats are not protected speech, haven't been since Lincoln was shot. Anybody claiming they hav e a right to make threats is simply not versed in the subject they're talking about. I realise this does not contradict what you're saying (and it is not aimed at what you're saying.)

With that said, I feel it should be made acceptable to threaten in self-defence. If someone brandishes a weapon at you, and you threaten them, I don't think that should be a crime. Though that sort of thing can get very complicated if we want it to, that's how things tend to work in practice. They get more and more complicated until a voice of reason and wisdom enters the conversation. But that seems to be a rare event in the world these days.

When rules are made with substandard quality and are hastily implemented to avoid due process, those rules end up being just another weapon in the hands of an attacker. Some people know this from experience. Others demand the right to learn this the hard way, at the expense of everybody else.People are funny. They realise that all guns should have a safety on them, so that they don't go off accidentally. Then they start writing laws, and demand that the laws themselves have all safety mechanisms removed. They were right the first time, they had the right idea, but then they got going full steam and forgot what they were doing.


You can hardly maintain a just society when people are finding ways to prevent anybody from discussing which rules are stupid. Someone willing to say so has always entered the conversation, but what we do to those people is a matter of fashion.
« Last Edit: 12 Oct 2020, 21:21 by flfederation »
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LeeC

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3106 on: 12 Oct 2020, 21:21 »

IIRC, the ankles thing was mostly an American attempt to emulate the Victorians.  IIRC, in the 12th and 13th centuries, heavy cleavage, if not bare breasts were fairly common amongst the ladies.

That could be. I know the shoulder thing is true though. I was surprised to find out my wife was brought up saying you should cover your shoulders when trying to be presentable and especially when going to church. It was something that stuck around in eastern europe and survived into the modern age (along with many other superstitions I was made aware of). Looking at some medieval art of women from the period seems like the ankle thing might not be too far off though (for nobles since they could afford nice clothes). And I almost say the same with men in that regard. Granted central heating wasn't a thing and keeping warm while working outside in brisk weather was probably important and common whether you were a lowly peasant or a noble. And then the inverse when it was to hot I am willing to bet the men and women had bear arms and legs to help cool off when farming.




Maybe instead of showing skin (I still maintain the shoulder idea though) but perhaps impressive hats like a wimple? Then again a commoner might have thought an impressive hat meant nobility and that was nothing to trifle with. Doing a bit more research, eye contact was a huge thing in courtship and so maybe sexy/hungry eyes would have done the trick back then. I still don;t feel like I have a firm answer though. Still something to muse about.
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You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it. - M. Gustave

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3107 on: 12 Oct 2020, 21:56 »

Headwear protect against falling pest. (Wanna revive headwear tradition with embeded panoramic cameras to fight surveillance with surveillance?)
let people check off list items that something had been "properly addressed" in a useless, one-size-fits-one-size way without actually accomplishing a thing
Depends on checklist. Bad checklist, yes. How to make good checklist?..
[bad:] not taking one person seriously is a moral crime but actually hearing out this other person is actually wrong
Especially longtime outmodes.
I feel it should be made acceptable to threaten in self-defence. If someone brandishes a weapon at you, and you threaten them, I don't think that should be a crime. Though that sort of thing can get very complicated if we want it to,
Can be simple: (practically: reasonably seemingly) minimal counterthreat threat is OK. (Likewise about counterviolence.) (Unnecessary implies null is minimal.)
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If you consider post count as age, I'm quite old. Most of us are certifiably ancient around here. But like age, it often doesn't reflect maturity.
Quote from: Neil Young (Sixty to Zero, ¶5)
Now the jailhouse was empty
All the criminals were gone

LeeC

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3108 on: 12 Oct 2020, 22:13 »

Headwear protect against falling pest. (Wanna revive headwear tradition with embeded panoramic cameras to fight surveillance with surveillance?)


I didn't say the peasant would be turned away from a woman in headware nor that peasant women wouldn't wear them, but elaborate headware would make the peasant man wary.  If someone was to see you talking to, let alone flirting with your better, it may not work out so well. Hypothetically anyway. I know upward movement for peasants during feudal times was very difficult. I am reminded of Hark! A Vagrant's romantic peasant strips:
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=255
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You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it. - M. Gustave

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3109 on: 12 Oct 2020, 22:17 »

Quote from: N.N. Marf link=topic=29969.msg1451821#msg1451821
How to make good checklist?..
Don't make them more superficial than the process necessitates. The problem is, checklists encourage superficiality. Like the one that says
  • I voted.
Did you ensure that the voting process isn't broken or corrupt? Did you hold the candidates to the same standards on their second term as the first? Did you have more than one real choice, (really?)

These are all potential checklist items, though really this checklist only has one question on it. X it off and you're done for years. That's what checklists do in practice.

They're fine for situations where you can really enumerate all the questions that matter. If you can't do that, the checklist is pretty much going to cost you whatever questions you can't predict the need for . But people aren't good at determining whether a checklist is sufficient for a given solution or not-- perhaps because they're using a checklist to determine the suitability.
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N.N. Marf

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3110 on: 12 Oct 2020, 22:39 »

They're fine for situations where you can really enumerate all the questions that matter. If you can't do that, the checklist is pretty much going to cost you whatever questions you can't predict the need for . But people aren't good at determining whether a checklist is sufficient for a given solution or not-- perhaps because they're using a checklist to determine the suitability.
Each thing (or sufficient approximation) is enumerable. `Checklist' in me stands for explicit recordable procedure. Good checklist determining checklist goodness would be great. Until such metachecklist..
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Quote from: don't recall
If you consider post count as age, I'm quite old. Most of us are certifiably ancient around here. But like age, it often doesn't reflect maturity.
Quote from: Neil Young (Sixty to Zero, ¶5)
Now the jailhouse was empty
All the criminals were gone

hedgie

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3111 on: 12 Oct 2020, 22:39 »

Charles Manson died in prison for saying far less than many preachers in this country, and I'll leave it at that.
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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3112 on: 12 Oct 2020, 23:10 »

Charles Manson died in prison for saying far less than many preachers in this country, and I'll leave it at that.
Charles Manson died 83 years old of cardiac arrest (after dubious medical treatment of serious illness) while imprisoned by conviction of (conspiracy to) murder. What his speech contributed to his death? Of that, was it the speech of it that contributed to his death, or something else? e.g. conspiracy to murder.
« Last Edit: 12 Oct 2020, 23:18 by N.N. Marf »
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Quote from: don't recall
If you consider post count as age, I'm quite old. Most of us are certifiably ancient around here. But like age, it often doesn't reflect maturity.
Quote from: Neil Young (Sixty to Zero, ¶5)
Now the jailhouse was empty
All the criminals were gone

Cornelius

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Re: miscellaneous musings
« Reply #3113 on: 13 Oct 2020, 02:17 »

IIRC, the ankles thing was mostly an American attempt to emulate the Victorians.  IIRC, in the 12th and 13th centuries, heavy cleavage, if not bare breasts were fairly common amongst the ladies.

That could be. I know the shoulder thing is true though. I was surprised to find out my wife was brought up saying you should cover your shoulders when trying to be presentable and especially when going to church. It was something that stuck around in eastern europe and survived into the modern age (along with many other superstitions I was made aware of). Looking at some medieval art of women from the period seems like the ankle thing might not be too far off though (for nobles since they could afford nice clothes). And I almost say the same with men in that regard. Granted central heating wasn't a thing and keeping warm while working outside in brisk weather was probably important and common whether you were a lowly peasant or a noble. And then the inverse when it was to hot I am willing to bet the men and women had bear arms and legs to help cool off when farming.
(click to show/hide)

The idea of a lot of bare skin in general seems to be an instance of Hollywood interpretation, just like the drab and grey colours... Now, that being said, there is something of a class divide here, as some miniatures show the difference between the courtois lady modestly warming herself to the fire, while the vilains are standing before the fire with all the parts they want to warm directly exposed. For working in the fields, it was fairly normal - described and pictured - for the labourers to roll down their hose, and just be their in their shirt.
On the other hand, 12th and 13th centuries had not the inhibitions about bathing that later periods had.
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