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Poll

What music should Dora put on for the inevitable bloody reckoning that is to come?

Something up beat and poppy! You can't spell "slaughter" without "laughter" after all!
- 12 (18.5%)
Slayer. Why is this even a question?
- 28 (43.1%)
New Age Spathe Ham Electronica
- 4 (6.2%)
Dubstep, Drop the bass and dropkick someone's soul.
- 8 (12.3%)
I would tell you what band I'd go on a rampage to, but you'd have never heard of them. Pleb.
- 8 (12.3%)
Dora should just calm down and visualize whirled peas till she feels better.
- 5 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 62

Voting closed: 30 Aug 2014, 02:49


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT: 2776-2780 (25-29 August 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread  (Read 75776 times)

plusorminus

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How does Sven confessing he loves Faye affect Dora?

Faye right now is in love with a guy who may get an offer he cannot refuse and leave her, and Faye is still working through her abandonment issues. Sven is aware of Faye's issues. At first I thought maybe he wasn't and then I realized he was because of the advice he gave Dora in going after Marten. Faye has admitted to Dora being unsure and scared about what may happen with her and Angus. And now a guy that she probably had been starting to fall for before he had drunken, mediocre sex with a woman he never saw again, and who devastated Faye with that action, is popping up at this crucial time and telling her he is in love with her and wants to be with her.

Faye is one of her key employees, and arguably the person beside Dora who made CoD into the success it is. She's in an emotional rough spot and confided in Dora about that. She is then summarily raked over the emotional coals by Dora's brother, who should know better, after the shit he put her through. I will point out again that at the outset of the Angus-might-move arc, Dora had to gently tell Faye that her work was slipping and that precipitated the talk about Angus. Dora has every reason to be concerned that because of her dickhead brother, her friend and valuable employee might go into a tailspin. And yes, the latter would affect Dora, as Faye's boss.
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themacnut

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How does Sven confessing he loves Faye affect Dora?
Directly? Not at all. One could argue it is just another example of the type of behavior from him she doesn't want in her life anymore.

The irony is, cutting Sven out of her life wouldn't really help in this regard. It would not stop Sven from say, chasing after Faye again if he so chose, or even coming to the shop and flirting with any of the other barristas. He just wouldn't be speaking to his sister and vice versa. She could always tell him to leave her shop (business owners do have the right to order someone off their premises) but again, that doesn't stop Sven from flirting with any of the girls after hours.

Basically, Sven could go right on flirting with Dora's friends while ignoring Dora completely, since they're Not Speaking.
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Chelicerate

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There sure is a whole lot of projection coming from one side of this argument. Women are not obligated to date men that they do not want to date. It doesn't matter how 'crushed' a person would be by the ending of the relationship- The relationship is a two way street.
You can feel bad for the hurt party in a breakup (which is, more often than not, actually both parties) but to vilify the person committing the break, as a third party observer, says more about you than it does about that person.

Dora's never cheated on anybody, so far as we know. She's not perfect, but she's often tried to make amends after outbursts and seems to care about her friends. Sven, on the other hand...

I genuinely don't know where you'd all read that he was some socially savvy great guy. Nearly every time we'd encountered him, it was either a situation he couldn't fuck up without being cartoonishly horrible, or we've been dealing with the backlash of some relationship of his gone awry. The only time he seemed like a decent guy, to me, was on his date with hanners. He's not a horrible person, no, but he's not a GOOD person. Definitely the kind of person I would avoid having in my life, at least.

Jeeze, it's almost like we're reading a comic about dysfunctional adults or something.

Also: Threats of physical violence amongst friends do not necessitate a willingness to actually use that violence. Hell, they don't even seem to even THREATEN it much anymore. Why is everyone jumping to those conclusions?

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Nyithra

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After reading through more discussion, I can see how this might affect Dora more in certain ways, perhaps not directly, but seeing a friend in stressful situations can also be stressful for oneself in an empathetic sort of way, and witnessing (however indirectly) somebody being an asshole and making that situation MORE stressful is just plain anger inducing. This still seems like a heat of the moment thing though. It seems like she wants to 'punish' Sven for his actions, but she doesn't want to tell him that she's punishing him. It's not very logical from an objective standpoint, but under a lot of anger and stress, cutting off the SOURCE of that anger and stress might seem logical in that moment.
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sitnspin

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I don't see it as an attempt to punish Sven, I see it as an attempt to remove an emotionally destructive influence from her life. It is an understandable choice, but one she'd be wise to discuss with her therapist first
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Also: Threats of physical violence amongst friends do not necessitate a willingness to actually use that violence. Hell, they don't even seem to even THREATEN it much anymore. Why is everyone jumping to those conclusions?

I don't know, but I find myself asking that question every week, when someone inevitably remarks 'wow, x is really going to punch y after that,' or something along those lines. I can only assume they are speaking metaphorically, but even so, it is still a bit head scratching.

My theory is that at least part of this is due to the static nature of comics. What is for one character a passing moment of irritation is, for the reader, a day or perhaps even an eternity of anger building up to some kind of overly dramatic conclusion.

Also... projection? Around here? Surely not.  :mrgreen:
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creatureshock

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Also? Faye needs to keep her hands to herself. If Dora annoys her, then Faye has every right to quit and find work elsewhere. Threatening to or actually striking someone doesn't solve everything. Dora is not making Faye responsible. She would have come into the shop guns blazing telling Faye "OMFG that's it, I'm done with Sven after what he's done to you."

Lets see... Faye has a history of violence, though Marten is really the only one she has ever been violent with.  Again, Faye nor Sven have talked to Dora about this, and she is trying like a 5 year old hiding something from her mom to keep Faye from finding out about it.  I'd say Faye has every right to be pissed off, and this being a comic strip she will go off about it.  I know Faye has grown a lot, probably grown the most of any character in the comic, but people don't change 100%.  Once a violent nutter (and I respect that about her) always a violent nutter.
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creatureshock

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Faye right now is in love with a guy who may get an offer he cannot refuse and leave her, and Faye is still working through her abandonment issues. Sven is aware of Faye's issues. At first I thought maybe he wasn't and then I realized he was because of the advice he gave Dora in going after Marten. Faye has admitted to Dora being unsure and scared about what may happen with her and Angus. And now a guy that she probably had been starting to fall for before he had drunken, mediocre sex with a woman he never saw again, and who devastated Faye with that action, is popping up at this crucial time and telling her he is in love with her and wants to be with her.

Does Sven even know about Angus getting the offer?  At least did he before he confessed to Faye that he might be in love with her?
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creatureshock

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After reading through more discussion, I can see how this might affect Dora more in certain ways, perhaps not directly, but seeing a friend in stressful situations can also be stressful for oneself in an empathetic sort of way, and witnessing (however indirectly) somebody being an asshole and making that situation MORE stressful is just plain anger inducing. This still seems like a heat of the moment thing though. It seems like she wants to 'punish' Sven for his actions, but she doesn't want to tell him that she's punishing him. It's not very logical from an objective standpoint, but under a lot of anger and stress, cutting off the SOURCE of that anger and stress might seem logical in that moment.

The biggest problem I have with this is that Faye is being left out.  She had her talk with Marten, got it out of her system, and she has moved on.  I feel like Dora is just doing whatever the devil she wants to and be damned anyone else's feeling. 
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sitnspin

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Again, I ask, what does Faye have to be angry about? Dora made a decision about her relationship with her brother. How does that negatively affect Faye? I know you are determined to blame Dora for something, anything, but I fail to see any rational basis for Faye to care what Dora does in relation to her own family.
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@syleegrrl

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Creatureshock- Instead of posting after yourself multiple times, could you consolidate your posts into one post? It makes the thread as a whole easier to read.
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creatureshock

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Again, I ask, what does Faye have to be angry about? Dora made a decision about her relationship with her brother. How does that negatively affect Faye? I know you are determined to blame Dora for something, anything, but I fail to see any rational basis for Faye to care what Dora does in relation to her own family.

Based on third hand information that was explained to her in short hand.  If Dora had come to this after something Sven had done to her or in front of her, I'd be all kinds of ok with it.  The fact that she did it this way and is now trying to hide the decision like a cat hiding a turd is what I have a problem with.
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sitnspin

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Again, I ask, what does Faye have to be angry about? Dora made a decision about her relationship with her brother. How does that negatively affect Faye? I know you are determined to blame Dora for something, anything, but I fail to see any rational basis for Faye to care what Dora does in relation to her own family.

Based on third hand information that was explained to her in short hand.  If Dora had come to this after something Sven had done to her or in front of her, I'd be all kinds of ok with it.  The fact that she did it this way and is now trying to hide the decision like a cat hiding a turd is what I have a problem with.
Because its not about Faye, its about Dora and her brother. What good comes of telling Faye about it? Not telling her is an attempt to avoid drama, not cause it. Not saying I agree with that decision, but is not a moral failing and it is not a slight against Faye. Really, it is none of Faye's business.
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creatureshock

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Again, I ask, what does Faye have to be angry about? Dora made a decision about her relationship with her brother. How does that negatively affect Faye? I know you are determined to blame Dora for something, anything, but I fail to see any rational basis for Faye to care what Dora does in relation to her own family.

Based on third hand information that was explained to her in short hand.  If Dora had come to this after something Sven had done to her or in front of her, I'd be all kinds of ok with it.  The fact that she did it this way and is now trying to hide the decision like a cat hiding a turd is what I have a problem with.
Because its not about Faye, its about Dora and her brother. What good comes of telling Faye about it? Not telling her is an attempt to avoid drama, not cause it. Not saying I agree with that decision, but is not a moral failing and it is not a slight against Faye. Really, it is none of Faye's business.

I can only say it from my position.  Dora is Faye's best female friend (Marten being her best friend over all), and Dora not telling Faye about something this majorly significant action she is taking in her life, based on something that did not happen to Dora but to Faye, will probably piss Faye off.  Faye has enough shit on her plate with Angus possibly moving and their relationship, the most healthy relationship she has ever had with someone outside of her family, becoming long distance or possibly forcing her to move (and I can almost guarantee she is thinking of that possibility) to be with the man she loves.  And I have no qualms saying that she is in love with Angus.  Two years going to a therapist for anger management issues because I realized I needed to get my shit under control, I can honestly say that I would be pissed off six ways to Sunday about this.  I don't have a history of violence like Faye does, just verbal abuse bordering on artistic verbal hatred used as a weapon by several friends who are no longer in my life because they would do that to me.  I have had to cut people out of my life because they were toxic users.  Sven, at least as far as Dora goes, is not a toxic user of a person as best I've seen.  Is he a fuck up that has sailed through life on a wind swept sea of horse shit?  You betcha he has.  Same with Jack Sparrow, half the characters Humphrey Bogart and Burt Reynolds have played.  They weren't toxic.  They were just assholes that everyone else let slide because of a cute smile, a way with words, and enough charisma to to get the Queen of England, Duchess of York and Dame Edna (I know, a bit of a stretch, but you put enough booze into them...) to drop their panties for them. 

They are not toxic, just assholes.
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sitnspin

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Toxic is relative. If a person hampers your growth and psychological recovery, that person is toxic to you and your well-being. You are not Dora, nor am I. Would Sven's behavior be toxic to me? No. I have a history of behavior fairly similar to his, but without the spoiled sense of entitlement. However, my issues are not her issues. I am assessing Dora's decisions from her perspective (as close as I can) not my own.

Dora is Faye's friend. Someone being your friend does not entitle you to every bit of data about them. They are not obligated to clue you in on every personal decision.

This isn't about Faye. This is about a long term on-going problem between Dora and Sven. It is a family matter. I really don't understand how you think it involves Faye.
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hedgie

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Again, I ask, what does Faye have to be angry about? Dora made a decision about her relationship with her brother. How does that negatively affect Faye? I know you are determined to blame Dora for something, anything, but I fail to see any rational basis for Faye to care what Dora does in relation to her own family.
People seldom act in a rational manner.  Dora probably has her (possibly quite good) reasons from not wanting to drag Faye into family/personal matters.  On the other hand, she *is* head underling at CoD, and may feel like the Dora/Sven problem might have an effect on her work environment.  That might be rational, it might not, and Dora might have the best intentions, knowing that Faye is stressed enough as it is.  At this point, it is still unknown what impact Dora's decision will have, and how it'll affect the other characters, so aside from speculation, I don't really see the point in (and I'm not aiming at you, just the turn this thread has taken) essentially picking "sides".
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creatureshock

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This isn't about Faye. This is about a long term on-going problem between Dora and Sven. It is a family matter. I really don't understand how you think it involves Faye.

Then we will agree to disagree.
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sitnspin

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This isn't about Faye. This is about a long term on-going problem between Dora and Sven. It is a family matter. I really don't understand how you think it involves Faye.

Then we will agree to disagree.
We will likely never agree, but that does not preclude understanding of each other's respective positions. I am legitimately curious about your reasoning in this matter as it has so far baffled me. You say that you'd be angry in Faye's position, but you've never explained why.
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creatureshock

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This isn't about Faye. This is about a long term on-going problem between Dora and Sven. It is a family matter. I really don't understand how you think it involves Faye.

Then we will agree to disagree.
We will likely never agree, but that does not preclude understanding of each other's respective positions. I am legitimately curious about your reasoning in this matter as it has so far baffled me. You say that you'd be angry in Faye's position, but you've never explained why.

Because if someone based a major life decision on something that happened to me, without even asking me my opinion of the situation, I would be pissed off.  At the very least, in my opinion, Faye deserves a "Dude, that's fucked up".  Add to the fact that Dora is, as I've said before, hiding this like a child hides a bad report card, would make me even more pissed off.  I would expect a "Hey, I heard what happened.  Here is what I am going to do because I'm sick of his shit, and what he did to you want the last straw", not "Please don't tell her/him/it".  I am sort of taking Sven's side of this because he is an upfront asshole.  He doesn't hide it, he is just being Sven.  Dora is being an asshole, but being an undercover asshole.   I've always had respect for people that don't tiptoe around issues.  Be honest and upfront about it.  Nothing pisses me off more, and my parents, brother, and several dozen ex-girlfriends and dozens of ex and current friends learned this very quickly when I went off on them because of it.  You aren't saving anyone's feelings from being hurt but your own.  And if you are too much of a coward to take your lumps and suffer the consequences of your actions or decisions, then don't fucking do them.  If you are going to execute me, at least have the balls to do it to my face and not from behind.
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plusorminus

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I can only say it from my position.  Dora is Faye's best female friend (Marten being her best friend over all), and Dora not telling Faye about something this majorly significant action she is taking in her life, based on something that did not happen to Dora but to Faye, will probably piss Faye off.  Faye has enough shit on her plate with Angus possibly moving and their relationship, the most healthy relationship she has ever had with someone outside of her family, becoming long distance or possibly forcing her to move (and I can almost guarantee she is thinking of that possibility) to be with the man she loves. 

OK, you're obviously not interested in the well-reasoned arguments (not mine) that detail why this does affect Dora, which indicates that you've made up your mind to blame Dora regardless, so I will heed that and move on.

I do think you have a point within the rest of this paragraph. Dora has done a monumentally stupid thing in telling Marten. I get it that she wants Faye not to know, probably precisely because she fears Faye will blow a gasket, or try to invalidate her feelings, just as Marten is trying to do. It's not for Marten to tell Dora what she should and should not feel and how dumb or not she is to feel whatever way she feels,. Faye specializes in that sort of behavior to the point where she had to be warned not to be an asshole to Marigold or there would be consequences.

But Marten is incapable of keeping anything from anybody for any length of time, plus he is Faye's best friend. Dora has now involved Marten in the "cover up" which will not go over well when Faye inevitably finds out what's going on. Doesn't make Dora "toxic," doesn't mean that she deserves to be dipped in butter and thrown on an anthill. It does indicate her tendency to shoot first and aim later that has been pointed out in this thread. And maybe she will lose Faye's respect, friendship or even services in CoD.

That's how far it goes. Faye has nothing to do with Dora's feelings for her own brother any more than Dora would have to do with Faye's feelings toward her sister. If Dora tells Faye "You were dealing with the Angus stuff and I didn't want to pile on. I knew there was a reason you didn't tell me and I'm sorry I involved Marten and asked him to keep this from you, but I've made up my mind about Sven," then that's it as far as Faye is concerned. Faye doesn't get to be preachy or offended or violent over actual feelings that Dora may feel, but that she (Faye) might not personally agree with. She does get to be offended and angry (but still not violent) that Marten is involved and is being told to actively keep this from her.

Also, I don't see what "consequences" Dora would be taking except for the loss of Faye's friendship, which she was prepared to suffer after the Marten thing, or Faye quitting, which she was also prepared to suffer. Dora loves Faye, but ultimately it's up to Faye if she wants to leave the friendship, and while Faye's services to CoD have been tremendous, Dale's situation shows that Dora could have three people in there tomorrow to replace Faye if it came to that. I definitely don't think she wants it to come to that, but there's really no "consequences" Dora is avoiding here, except being hit by Faye, and I say again, Faye needs to keep her hands to herself before she winds up in jail on assault charges because one day she will dump milk or coffee on the wrong customer and her arse will be in lockup.
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sitnspin

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Again, why would that piss you off?

Her life decisions are her own, regardless of the reasons. And this decision only affects her, not Faye. The situation with Sven was a long time coming. Frankly I am surprised it took her this long considering how long the issue had been stewing between them. I still think you are viewing her current choice solely in light of this most recent event rather than in the larger context of their life long relationship. The anger and resentment she feels, justified or not,  has been there for years.

If she was interfering in Faye's personal life, I'd understand the anger and agree with it, but she is not.

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Sheesh.

Mob A: "Sven hitting on Faye is none of Dora's business.  Dora has no rational reason to be irrational about it."

Mob B: "Dora cutting Sven out is none of Faye's business.  Faye has no rational reason to be irrational about it."

It's like I'm looking at mirror images here, more alike than different.  And they can't stop fighting ...
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Jazzmaster

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Sheesh.

Mob A: "Sven hitting on Faye is none of Dora's business.  Dora has no rational reason to be irrational about it."

Mob B: "Dora cutting Sven out is none of Faye's business.  Faye has no rational reason to be irrational about it."

It's like I'm looking at mirror images here, more alike than different.  And they can't stop fighting ...

Of course.  We're like cats; we see our reflection, and we start hissing at it.  :-D
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Mr_Rose

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The only thing Faye truly has to be upset about is the blatant deception the two of them are engaged in, since it sort of implies that at least one of them doesn't believe she will react favourably so they're lying and hiding instead of being honest. The trouble is that Faye is more likely to react badly to the dishonesty than to the original situation and that won't go down easily at all…
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First time poster, here. Hi everyone!

I've honestly been a little taken aback by the responses about Sven's confession. I don't see how its an awful thing to do at all. He didn't try to force or coerce her into doing anything, but gave her information she would need to make a choice, which she did (even if it wasn't the decision Sven wanted her to make). The idea that a grown woman just shouldn't be able to make the choice herself seems...odd to me.
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sitnspin

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Actually, he did try to push it. She told him she has a boyfriend and his response was "So what?" and expected her to get back together anyway.
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Jazzmaster

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First time poster, here. Hi everyone!

I've honestly been a little taken aback by the responses about Sven's confession. I don't see how its an awful thing to do at all. He didn't try to force or coerce her into doing anything, but gave her information she would need to make a choice, which she did (even if it wasn't the decision Sven wanted her to make). The idea that a grown woman just shouldn't be able to make the choice herself seems...odd to me.

I'd like to add to this that at the end of his meeting with Faye, Sven seem reluctant to doing it but actually seemed somewhat accepting of her decision, even though he wasn't terribly happy with it.  And even though in his meeting with Steve he was a little bit bitter and "whiny" about it, he still made no indication that he planned to cross further boundaries.
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sitnspin

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Sven hitting on Faye is none of Dora's business unless Faye chooses to share the information.

Dora cutting Sven out of her life is none of Faye's business unless Dora chooses to share the information.

Both of these are true.

Both of them are free to make decisions that don't affect the other based on this information without clearing it with each other
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How does Sven confessing he loves Faye affect Dora?
Directly? Not at all. One could argue it is just another example of the type of behavior from him she doesn't want in her life anymore.

The irony is, cutting Sven out of her life wouldn't really help in this regard. It would not stop Sven from say, chasing after Faye again if he so chose, or even coming to the shop and flirting with any of the other barristas.

It might not, but then again, it could.   I don't recall Dora ever going so far as to actually cut Sven out of her life, and having Dora - his own sister, who's tolerated his BS for so long - finally have enough might actually be enough to wake him the hell up.  It may or may not even be contributing to her rationale (though I kind of doubt it, since she seems to be in a slightly more self-oriented mindset).
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...

Goodbye WCDT threads!

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In the end, the thing people will remember is kindness.

Jazzmaster

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Dora cutting Sven out of her life is none of Faye's business unless Dora chooses to share the information.

The issue with this is that Dora already went dancing around in front of Faye because of "something".  It's kind of poor form to purposefully draw attention to something and flirt around with the subject, but then not actually tell people what it is that's bothering you.
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Socky

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Why would Dora tell this to Marten, probably Faye's closest friend, in CoD while Faye's there and tell him not to tell her?
Why tell Marten at all?
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Somnus Eternus

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Why would Dora tell this to Marten, probably Faye's closest friend, in CoD while Faye's there and tell him not to tell her?
Why tell Marten at all?

Because Marten is also her good friend and is likely to provide a more level-headed response than Faye is.

I also strongly disagree with this idea that people are throwing around that Sven hitting on Faye is none of Dora's business, and Dora cutting Sven out of her life is none of Faye's.  They're not just coworkers - they're also close friends.  In that sense, of course something like that would be the business of the other, in the sense that they'd each be concerned about the other's well being. It's not to say that either are obligated to share that information with the other, but let's not pretend that either situation wouldn't have an impact on the other person. 
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TheEvilDog

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FilliamHMuffman

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Personally I think most of the argument here is because there are too many characters in this comic and too little character development for us to make judgments off of. I don't remember the last time sven was shown and I don't think that him suddenly appearing proclaiming love is a good way to begin a plot arc when both him and Dora have not had much character development in a while. This has been a complaint of mine for a while, never felt like expressing it until now because the levels of new characters had gotten to the point of hindering the comic for me. Just an opinion though.
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"Enter their minds, and you'll find the judges you're so afraid of - and how judiciously they judge themselves."

techkid

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Wow. 24-ish hours gone, three pages of discussion/rant/whatever.

On comic: Not telling Faye about Dora's decision is probably OK for the moment. Faye has enough on her plate to worry about, and this would probably only compound it.

By the same token, Faye should be informed of this. Preferably from Marten or Dora. Why? Well, Dora is doing this because dumping emotional baggage on someone you love, regardless of whether the feeling is reciprocated, is not cool. I still stand by my belief that Dora is doing the right thing in the worst possible way, but since she is doing it anyway, it should be done properly at least. By telling Faye why she is doing this, Faye can give her thoughts on whether Dora is doing the right thing or not.

Edit: Hearing this from a third person (or worse still, Sven), would be more damaging than anything. Thoughts that spring to mind would be that this is somehow her fault, which would be like taking out key support struts in a mineshaft. Crushing damage included.
« Last Edit: 26 Aug 2014, 06:46 by techkid »
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Just because I'm evil, doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

dawolf

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First time poster, here. Hi everyone!

I've honestly been a little taken aback by the responses about Sven's confession. I don't see how its an awful thing to do at all. He didn't try to force or coerce her into doing anything, but gave her information she would need to make a choice, which she did (even if it wasn't the decision Sven wanted her to make). The idea that a grown woman just shouldn't be able to make the choice herself seems...odd to me.

First time poster here as well.

I don't understand why what Sven's done (right now) is so bad. Dora states..."you know everything Sven's done."

What has he done, to Dora?

Been more popular than her (not his fault)
Been the target for her girlfriends (not his fault)
Slept around (how does that hurt Dora? It's questionable if it even hurts the women in question, depending on whether he's being honest with them)
Gone out with Faye (not a problem)
Cheated on Faye (his fault - and the mistake)
Realised he made a mistake and told Faye he loves her (questionable whether this is even a problem, and nothing to do with Dora).

He also

Acted like a gentleman towards Hannelore
Helped Dora get over Marten
Gave Dora a place to stay when she left Marten

Why does she think he's such a bad guy?

The problem here is that Dora has unrealistic expectations of other people. They have to meet her perceived value of perfect to be ok.

Sven's a more likeable (and less toxic) character IMO....
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CaptainFish

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Well he also manipulated Marten into lying to an ex-girlfriend when they met. She didn't have a great opinion of him, so there's probably some manipulation or at least lack-of-communication leading to Sven and the women he hooks up with having different ideas of what they want.

I definitely agree that since he cheated on Faye and had the intern who moonlighted as a conscience he's been a decent person. I even think that if he had told Faye he loved her for the purposes of being able to move on, rather than truly expecting it to break up her relationship regardless of what Faye wants, it wouldn't have been a 'bad' act. Even with those expectations it reads better to me than, say, weaseling his way into their social group on the off chance he could take advantage of Faye's physical attraction to him in a drunk or emotionally compromised moment.

Dora has a lot of issues tied to having to work hard to get where she is and not always thinking she's doing well, while her brother has coasted on charisma and producing low quality music. They both think the same way though, cause Sven did truly think his confession would work, cause everything just works for him.

I think more communication should happen before she commits to this decision, at least with her therapist. I'd also like it if Faye and Dora were a bit more forthcoming not because their lives are quote "any of the other's business" end-quote, but because when shit like this is hidden it tends to get revealed in messy ways and as friends they should be able to discuss things.
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GarandMarine

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Damn. I am proud that I made the thread this week. I know it has nothing to do with me whatsoever, but newbs out of every conceivable piece of wood work, mod warnings, multi-paragraph arguments! It's just lovely. Though I am slightly disturbed by the sheer rage against violence amongst friends in here. If you can't have a fist fight in a parking lot with your best friend that would make Tyler Durden from Fight Club wince and suggest you might be going too far THEN still be best friends seconds after finishing the fight, you might need to reevaluate the magic of friendship in your life.
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I built the walls that make my life a prison, I built them all and cannot be forgiven... ...Sold my soul to carry your vendetta, So let me go before you can regret it, You've made your choice and now it's come to this, But that's price you pay when you're a monster with no name.

Barmymoo

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Most people find casual violence and violence as a response to anger or irritation unacceptable. Having seen the consequences of the normalisation of violence as a response to not getting what you want, or being annoyed at something, first hand in my own life and in my career, I can completely understand. Rough-housing is one thing. Smacking a friend round the head because you don't like something they did is another.
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

Smallest

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First time poster, here. Hi everyone!

I've honestly been a little taken aback by the responses about Sven's confession. I don't see how its an awful thing to do at all. He didn't try to force or coerce her into doing anything, but gave her information she would need to make a choice, which she did (even if it wasn't the decision Sven wanted her to make). The idea that a grown woman just shouldn't be able to make the choice herself seems...odd to me.

I'd like to add to this that at the end of his meeting with Faye, Sven seem reluctant to doing it but actually seemed somewhat accepting of her decision, even though he wasn't terribly happy with it.  And even though in his meeting with Steve he was a little bit bitter and "whiny" about it, he still made no indication that he planned to cross further boundaries.
This is what I was trying to say but I think you worded it better.

The only thing Faye truly has to be upset about is the blatant deception the two of them are engaged in, since it sort of implies that at least one of them doesn't believe she will react favourably so they're lying and hiding instead of being honest. The trouble is that Faye is more likely to react badly to the dishonesty than to the original situation and that won't go down easily at all…

Yes, especially from Marten and Dora. At least they don't live together all three anymore, that would make this interesting.

Why would Dora tell this to Marten, probably Faye's closest friend, in CoD while Faye's there and tell him not to tell her?
Why tell Marten at all?

Because Marten is also her good friend and is likely to provide a more level-headed response than Faye is.

I also strongly disagree with this idea that people are throwing around that Sven hitting on Faye is none of Dora's business, and Dora cutting Sven out of her life is none of Faye's.  They're not just coworkers - they're also close friends.  In that sense, of course something like that would be the business of the other, in the sense that they'd each be concerned about the other's well being. It's not to say that either are obligated to share that information with the other, but let's not pretend that either situation wouldn't have an impact on the other person.

I agree with the second part of your post, but regarding Marten- still, why at CoD, in front of Faye, and then ask for it to be secret? If she's going to keep it a secret (see below), she should have waited for Faye's break or talked to Marten aside or something, although those would have interfered with her fake happy thing.
Wow. 24-ish hours gone, three pages of discussion/rant/whatever.

On comic: Not telling Faye about Dora's decision is probably OK for the moment. Faye has enough on her plate to worry about, and this would probably only compound it.

By the same token, Faye should be informed of this. Preferably from Marten or Dora. Why? Well, Dora is doing this because dumping emotional baggage on someone you love, regardless of whether the feeling is reciprocated, is not cool. I still stand by my belief that Dora is doing the right thing in the worst possible way, but since she is doing it anyway, it should be done properly at least. By telling Faye why she is doing this, Faye can give her thoughts on whether Dora is doing the right thing or not.

Edit: Hearing this from a third person (or worse still, Sven), would be more damaging than anything. Thoughts that spring to mind would be that this is somehow her fault, which would be like taking out key support struts in a mineshaft. Crushing damage included.
Yeah, that. I understand delaying telling a bit may be for the best- she hasn't spoken to Sven or her parents yet, after all- but not telling Faye or letting a third party won't go well.

Also, regarding how rational anger at Dora would be: Faye didn't seem to take the situation as all that bad. Eventually, she's going to find out that a conversation that was just annoying, if a bit disconcerting based on timing, to her led to Dora estranging herself. That would be probably pretty confusing and pissing-off to find out.

I don't know. If I exchange words with someone, I generally don't expect to later find out that their family estranged them based on me.

Well he also manipulated Marten into lying to an ex-girlfriend when they met. She didn't have a great opinion of him, so there's probably some manipulation or at least lack-of-communication leading to Sven and the women he hooks up with having different ideas of what they want.

While kinda shitty, I wouldn't call this manipulation (and I think we can place the kick in 'the comic used to be more physical' category).

Although I guess we may be looking at manipulation differently. I'd say mine is close to the wikipedia summary.
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I mostly agree, so +1, and also I will stick here that I don't think much can/has happened off screen. The comic tends to be pretty linear, and as someone said, that would be bad storytelling, especially if Dora confirms stuff happened off screen all in a big speech bubble to Marten or something. I don't see it happening
« Last Edit: 26 Aug 2014, 10:37 by Smallest »
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QuestionableIntentions

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First time poster, here. Hi everyone!

I've honestly been a little taken aback by the responses about Sven's confession. I don't see how its an awful thing to do at all. He didn't try to force or coerce her into doing anything, but gave her information she would need to make a choice, which she did (even if it wasn't the decision Sven wanted her to make). The idea that a grown woman just shouldn't be able to make the choice herself seems...odd to me.

First time poster here as well.

I don't understand why what Sven's done (right now) is so bad. Dora states..."you know everything Sven's done."

What has he done, to Dora?

Been more popular than her (not his fault)
Been the target for her girlfriends (not his fault)
Slept around (how does that hurt Dora? It's questionable if it even hurts the women in question, depending on whether he's being honest with them)
Gone out with Faye (not a problem)
Cheated on Faye (his fault - and the mistake)
Realised he made a mistake and told Faye he loves her (questionable whether this is even a problem, and nothing to do with Dora).

He also

Acted like a gentleman towards Hannelore
Helped Dora get over Marten
Gave Dora a place to stay when she left Marten

Why does she think he's such a bad guy?

The problem here is that Dora has unrealistic expectations of other people. They have to meet her perceived value of perfect to be ok.

Sven's a more likeable (and less toxic) character IMO....

Yes! Thank you. How exactly is Sven a "toxic" or even bad person? Dora's issues with him are hers and hers alone.
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FunkyTuba

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IMO it would help to be clear about the Sven/Faye interaction. Separating the "Sven burdened Faye with his feelings for her while she's in a relationship" from "Faye was feeling particularly torn-up about her relationship" is kind of important.

As far as I could tell Sven did *not* intentionally wait until a time when Faye was vulnerable and spring this on her when he knew she was weak. It looks to me like this was Author-Induced Bad Timing For Dramatic Purposes (there must be a Trope for this).

It seems like Dora might be conflating the two ( the way it seems like some people here are ;) ) and is (again IMO) overreacting. Perhaps she's doing so because of years of her own baggage filled up by Sven pulling stuff like this in the past, and in this case for once it was not his intention.
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aphanisis81

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I don't even find the highly-sitcomish hiding-in-the-bathroom arc to be that horrible an indicator of Sven's character. Sure, he was cheating on a girl, but come on, that's a thing that happens. And there was no indication that he and Genevieve were more than a pretty casual hookup.

Roping Marten into helping him out? OK, not really Marten's sort of thing, but not exactly beyond the pale, either.

If one person comes off like a lunatic in that arc, it's Faye. Especially her line "You should apologize to people you've genuinely hurt, like Genevieve"...I feel like Sven's proper response to that would have been "Um, you have no idea what my situation with Genevieve was like. If you want me to feel bad for getting your former Man-Bitch who's now railing my sister involved, fine. But you're in no position to judge what happened with G."

And then she goes along to the hospital just to throw in a few more insults and muttered acrimony. Pretty lame.
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Bob of the South

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 Honestly, I think recent events have made me realize that the main trio of characters (Marten, Faye, and Dora) are capable of forgiving themselves and each other of everything while condemning others for much less. It's understandable among friends, but annoyingly cliquish. 
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Is it cold in here?

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Not in the QC universe.

Perhaps not. But it's still retarded.


Global Moderator Comment Apparently time for a reminder that this is private property and crude insults to the host show a lack of self-control and a lack of awareness that actions have consequences. Insulting millions of people with a medical problem at the same time is unwelcome too.
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Thank you, Dr. Karikó.

Rubick

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I kind of feel the actions of all involved are understandable, even if I personally disagree with then.

Also, a key point - while we can all dive deep into this and approach every angle, Dora got hit with this out of the blue and as we have all experienced, emotions can sometimes lead us to make decisions rashly and based off, say, pent-up resentment for a brother over the years. I think the timeline is that she found out about this last evening and it's now tomorrow morning.

As for not telling Faye - well, obviously I can't guess Jeph's thinking, but I read it as Dora thinking "Faye has a lot of shit going on in her own life, without potentially feeling guilty over causing a familial divide."
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Chelicerate

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I don't even find the highly-sitcomish hiding-in-the-bathroom arc to be that horrible an indicator of Sven's character. Sure, he was cheating on a girl, but come on, that's a thing that happens. And there was no indication that he and Genevieve were more than a pretty casual hookup.


Cheating isn't just 'a thing that happens'. It is an active action, to be taken responsibility for. Additionally, you, too, don't know that they WEREN'T more than a casual hookup. You're jumping to just as many conclusions.

If one person comes off like a lunatic in that arc, it's Faye. Especially her line "You should apologize to people you've genuinely hurt, like Genevieve"...I feel like Sven's proper response to that would have been "Um, you have no idea what my situation with Genevieve was like. If you want me to feel bad for getting your former Man-Bitch who's now railing my sister involved, fine. But you're in no position to judge what happened with G."

And then she goes along to the hospital just to throw in a few more insults and muttered acrimony. Pretty lame.

So expecting people to minimize the harm they've evidently done to others is now 'coming off as a lunatic'. Hokay.
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Pilchard123

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Piglet wondered how it was that every conversation with Eeyore seemed to go wrong.

Chelicerate

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Plenty relaxed. I ENJOY this.
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