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Poll

This week on QC...

Now departing the USS MartenClaire *bell rings*
- 122 (56.7%)
Jephizba trolls us all, hallowed be the trollmaster's name.
- 32 (14.9%)
Spatheham and Clairemom Pancakes
- 7 (3.3%)
A solid week of Steve eating cereal
- 9 (4.2%)
Martenmom and Clairemom team up and fight crime/meddle in their children's personal lives
- 45 (20.9%)

Total Members Voted: 203

Voting closed: 09 Oct 2014, 22:04


Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 ... 32   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT: 2806-2810 (6th - 10th October 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread  (Read 141187 times)

Netrunner

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I guess I disagree with you pretty strongly.  I didn't love any of my girlfriends, although I liked them just fine.  Hell, I didn't fall head over heels for my wife, I just slowly realized over a year plus of being together that there was no word to describe what I felt but love. 

That obsessive, butterflies in the stomach feeling you get about someone though?  That never led me to any good places, not even once.  As I said, when I was young, I would fall in love with female friends, then get the nice guy talk.  Or fall in love with women from online.  So I made it a rule not to consider my friends as romantic options, and to stop talking to girls who lived across the country online.  Even then, these feelings led me astray.  Every time I had that feeling, I had a hard time playing it cool after a successful few dates, and they'd stop talking to me.  In contrast, the girls I wasn't into so much to begin with I could play cool with, and actually date for a longer period. 

Actually it's funny, because right when I met my wife, there was another woman who I had been interested in, in the strong butterfly way, but I was convinced she didn't like me as more than a friend.  I ended up dating my wife instead, and a few months later, was hanging out with the girl, and realized she was actually crazy in love with me too.  That said, I knew that there was no reason to ever trust this feeling, that my relationship was going well, I cared about commitments, and I wasn't going to throw it all away for silly butterflies.

My understanding is that feeling, even when reciprocal, doesn't last more than a year or two.  So I'm not sure I missed anything important. 

Wow, man. That's actually really depressing. I can't understand NOT having that butterfly feeling. I've been married for 6 years and sometimes my wife does something super adorable and I get those feelings all over again. I'm not trying to knock on your relationship, so please don't be mad. What works for you, works for you. I could never have a romantic relationship where those feelings didn't exist. That's me, though. I think though, there are a lot of people out there that believe in a romantic love. And sometimes, romantic love just happens. I'm sorry it never happened for you, or that if it did, it never worked out. I really am. Just don't down on people that like, live or hope for a romantic love like that, not only for themselves, but for the fictional characters they've come to associate with.
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reicreature

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Also Claire body is small and fragile, her body language often makes her seem fragile and vulnerable and her neuroses contribute to that. Recipe for moe.

I don't see her as very neurotic save for her anxiety attack triggered by possible humiliation.
I guess it's that she's aware and her anxiety is controlled.
In this way she's probably less neurotic than Faye, Marigold or Dora...(I don't include Hanners because for the severity of Hanner's mental health issues, she's very high functioning).

Yes, there are other neurotic characters but for example, Dora's neurosis don't make you feel like holding her and protecting her. You just want her to stop asking you where everything is and shoo away Swiper.

I'm not sure how I feel about neurosis -fetishists.  :psyduck:

oh no! does my husband only love because my red hair and anxiety issues are cute?
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Rghfrgl

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I honestly wonder if Claire would have gotten the same reaction as a cis character.  I mean, her personality is basically Penelope with some neuroses added, and I don't remember Penelope being very popular ever.

While I'm sure there's people who like Claire because she's trans, because maybe that's a something they relate to or something they're attracted to or they're just into social justice or whatever.

But cis Claire wouldn't be the same character. You can have someone act just like her, but the motivations wouldn't be the same. I'd made a post a thread or two back of how I thought being trans related to Claire's character and said it made her a late bloomer. Why's cis Claire so much more excited than normal to buy a pretty dress for a wedding? Why hasn't she kissed anyone at 24 and why is she so reserved in general? Most likely reason would be she's Marigold, but we already have Marigold.

And *I* for one, miss Penelope
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2014, 20:56 by Rghfrgl »
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K1dmor

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What is Claire's favorite Toto song?

Wonderful question!


 
(click to show/hide)
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Method of Madness

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Aside from their love of books, in what way are Penelope and Claire similar at all?
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Sig

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What is Claire's favorite Toto song?

Wonderful question!


 
(click to show/hide)


I Lol'ed. Never even heard that song. I guess I need to go find it.
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Cagier Love

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In fact, I think Faye figured that marten had a thing for Claire after the wedding arc and then invited Claire for hang-outs sans Marten establishing her deeper into Marten's inner circle.

2411: Even for Marten, he is acting overly neurotic, which Faye picks up on.

2415: One of the most ironic strips, while claiming to loathe witholding information, Marten witholds information germane to his specific anxiety.

2445: Faye convinces Claire to hang around for hours, both confirming Claire's high interest in Marten and giving Faye an extended look at Claire. Faye is so keen on the opportunity, she attempts to leave work.

2651: Marten's relationship status weighs heavily on Faye's mind...

2769: ...yet Faye is quick to dismiss a potential romantic opportunity for Marten, despite the silliness of the "ethical conflict" of dating a non-employee whose service time will be measured in weeks.

2795: Faye hasn't figured out what the skeleton in the closet is but has accepted Claire anyway and tries to move things along.

Personally, I think Marten was intending to more forward in some incremental fashion after the wedding but put the brakes on when Claire melted down.
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Aziraphale

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Aside from their love of books, in what way are Penelope and Claire similar at all?

I've seen occasional remarks that hinted that Claire was a "token" character. I'd submit that Penelope is the "token." In a story where everybody's got some kind of issues, she (and probably Gabby, who we also don't see anymore) is the token. She's normal. She's vanilla. And amid all the variety of the rest of the cast... well, she's downright dull. Likable enough, and handy at those times when you need a semi-serious foil to the rest of the gang, but so very ordinary.

In real life, that's not a bad thing. When you're telling a story, though, (and I think this is true in life, too) it's a person's lumps and imperfections that make them and their circumstances interesting.
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DSL

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Claire is pretty much the opposite of Penelope in every way.
Penelope is bitter, dogmatic and judgmental. Claire, with one exception I can think of ... isn't.
Penelope wants her aspirations handed to her. That they're not is the world's fault. Claire works to make her personal reality conform to her picture of who she is ... bringing everything from her job to her body into line with that picture.
I used to think Hannelore was the strongest person in the strip, bar none. But Claire's right up there.

EDITED for more accurate expression of my evolving understanding of trans.
« Last Edit: 08 Oct 2014, 09:24 by DSL »
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I'd submit that Penelope is the "token." In a story where everybody's got some kind of issues, she (and probably Gabby, who we also don't see anymore) is the token. She's normal. She's vanilla. And amid all the variety of the rest of the cast... well, she's downright dull. Likable enough, and handy at those times when you need a semi-serious foil to the rest of the gang, but so very ordinary.

In real life, that's not a bad thing. When you're telling a story, though, (and I think this is true in life, too) it's a person's lumps and imperfections that make them and their circumstances interesting.

I would not call her a token but more of a side character. She is a tool to help fill out the story. You are right that she is not very interesting.
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hedgie

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Uhh...what is moe?  Is it some forum term?
More anime fan-speak.  Moe (tvtropes link).
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Wow, man. That's actually really depressing. I can't understand NOT having that butterfly feeling. I've been married for 6 years and sometimes my wife does something super adorable and I get those feelings all over again. I'm not trying to knock on your relationship, so please don't be mad. What works for you, works for you. I could never have a romantic relationship where those feelings didn't exist. That's me, though. I think though, there are a lot of people out there that believe in a romantic love. And sometimes, romantic love just happens. I'm sorry it never happened for you, or that if it did, it never worked out. I really am. Just don't down on people that like, live or hope for a romantic love like that, not only for themselves, but for the fictional characters they've come to associate with.

Eh.  My mother told me that before she met my dad, she was madly in love with someone, and she broke up with them because she didn't like how out of control she felt.  She only dated my dad initially because he was a dorky guy she knew who begged her for a year, and she felt bad for him.  Her plan was to only see him for a short period of time so his self esteem was built up more.  But somehow, they ended up getting married. 

Bottom line I guess is true romantic love would mean I wouldn't exist.  And perhaps I come from a line of people who ultimately choose their life partners through the head rather than the heart. 

Seriously though, I'm not bitter.  I love my wife and don't ever regret our marriage.  But sappy romance stories alternatively annoy or depress me, they don't make me squee. 

More anime fan-speak.  Moe (tvtropes link).

Ahh.  I've tried to avoid knowing as much about anime as possible in my life. 
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Kugai

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Oh, I thought ya ment dis guy.


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mystere9

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Ahh.  I've tried to avoid knowing as much about anime as possible in my life.
Probably a wise choice.
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rschill

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Am I the only one who picked up on Claire having feelings for Marten here:  2431

Seems like she's the only one seeing responsible actions out of the whole cast.  I totally support Marten's decision to buy that guitar, but I don't see picking up extra hours to make up the lost money as more responsible than usual.  She sees him as responsible when he's just making up for a huge impulse purchase there.

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Aziraphale

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Am I the only one who picked up on Claire having feelings for Marten here:  2431

Seems like she's the only one seeing responsible actions out of the whole cast.  I totally support Marten's decision to buy that guitar, but I don't see picking up extra hours to make up the lost money as more responsible than usual.  She sees him as responsible when he's just making up for a huge impulse purchase there.

The facial expression's a bit cut off by the glasses, but it looks like she's making a wisecrack (kinda like when she calls him "Cicero" at the reception).
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plusorminus

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I like Claire. I'm not sure about this development, though. Mainly because I foresee certain complications.

I don't think Clinton is a big Marten fan. While that won't likely be an issue in and of itself, I now wonder if, with the impending Dora/Sven implosion that Jeph wasn't foreshadowing a parallel with Claire and Clinton. I could see Clinton, possibly inadvertently, prophesying gloom and doom for this relationship. Possibly their mother will rein that in, or maybe he and Marten will form the sort of friendship Sven and Marten had when Marten was dating Dora.

I think Marten has to tell Claire about the Emily stuff. I do think Emily will have a problem with it. She has been shown as pretty mellow, but I found it pretty evident as of her party that she had the hots for Marten. It's even possible that she confided in Claire and Gabby in this. I don't know that for sure, but I could see her doing that. Which would mean she might see Claire's move as a betrayal. Orrr, she might not care. But I think that this will cause some friction, at least initially.

Also, I still think there's another shoe to drop in the Padma situation. I could see her reentering the narrative at some point down the road. Marten, to his credit, is a loyal boyfriend so I can't see him jumping at the chance to get back with her, but considering how freaked out he was when he saw the girl he'd left California for, I think that a Padma reentry would cause a shakeup, no matter how into Claire he might be.

I'm interested to see where it goes, though.
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Vincent Adultman

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I'm just not buyin' it. It truly pains me to say it, 'cause I've been reading this comic for YEARS, and I've loved Jeph's work, and I've bought QC stuff from him to support him,  but I think this might be a tipping point.  It feels like getting Marten into another relationship just for the sake of getting him into another relationship, and nothing more.  I love Jeph's work, but I'm having real trouble following this move.  Where's the heart behind it, where's the impetus?  I just...

I don't see it.

Me neither. Probably has to do with the fact that I don't really like Claire and it's, to be honest, hard for me to gather why everybody loves her so much.  Can't see where Marten has got his feelings from, just can't. But we're very alone, so I think we just missed something and/or have a very different perception, so I'm just going to see myself out until this arc pauses ;)

I registered just to say that I'm with you guys.  We are the Three Caballeros!

That said, it's pretty much exactly for the same reasons you guys said.

Although, I admit, I've seen this coming from way back when Marten found out her secret, I just haven't seen it develope in a way that seem... well... developed.  Which is probably because I feel very "meh" towards Claire in particular, but I digress.

I had no particular focus to this forum post, it seems.

I'm kind of in this group too.  There's just something doesn't "feel" right about it, but I can't identify what.  I know there has been a little buildup, so it's not that.  Perhaps it's that Marten seems rather out of character.  He's usually a little neurotic, a little uncertain.  This is a totally different Marten, just diving in and showing no sign of uncertainty or confusion.

Character growth?  Perhaps, it just seems rather sudden.

I just feel like most of the arcs lately have felt forced and ham-fisted.
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kyraeus

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Are we reading the same comic?  That would be cruel, and not in keeping with the 'theme' of the QCverse, which seems to revolve around kindness and acceptance.

Are WE reading the same comic?  I mean, at least, specifically revolving around the area of Marten's love life?  The boy's basically had every single person who ever had any interest in him/vice versa go... in a word, poorly.

While I don't personally have anything against a trans relationship (beyond the honest answer of it not being really my own preference for myself), it isn't a HUGE leap to see that while this has the potential to go well, it also has a SPECTACULAR option of being the next in a series of humongous explosions.  I seriously feel bad for the poor guy.

I think anyone who's around, involved, or related to anything trans can at least somewhat agree that besides life's normal problems, feeling like you're the wrong gender adds a boatload of special issues.  Marten's had bad luck enough with people WITHOUT that excess baggage, with only the 'normal' levels of baggage.. (Well, for whatever counts for normal for people he gets involved with that is).

I guess it all comes down to: I'd like to see Marten succeed just for once with a relationship.  And barring that, I'd at least like to see it NOT become something that demands a night getting piss drunk and worrying about whether it's going to mess with his entire circle of friendships, as in like; if it works it works, if not it doesn't, no harm, no foul, everyone walks away friends and happy. 

Y'know.  Rather than the explodey that's happened at least twice now.
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tragic_pizza

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I have resisted - for MONTHS - voicing my hope that ClaireMartin would be A Thing.

Please let it not be someone's dream.

FWIW, Parker Marie Molloy picked up on this, and there is currently a wonderful squee-fest going on in my FB feed.
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Vincent Adultman

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I don't know, kyraeus. I think the Dora relationship ended well enough. Sure, it hurt for a bit but they ended up friends. It's not like she smashed up his car or things got really ugly. (does anyone besides Claire even own a car in this comic?) As for this time, it's kind of hard to care how this turns out. It's getting harder to care how any of this recent shit turns out, honestly. I started reading QC because it was a mature, but still humorous look into everyday life. Lately though it's just Dawson's Fuckin Creek in Hipstertown.

My favorite strips lately are the ones with May. Mostly because she's kind of a dick. She's the only one around who seems capable of rolling her eyes and calling people out on their pithy bullshit. I know everyone else likes that the strip has this lovey-dovey kindness and acceptance group therapy thing going on, but I feel like if things get any more saccharine I'm going to get diabetes. It just feels fake. Like QC is suddenly 7th Heaven with facial piercings. Life isn't like this. Hell, the earlier arcs had some unrealistic stuff, but at least it was funny. Remember when Faye would attack people outright and the rest of the cast would chuckle? Now it seems like it would become Yet Another Big Damn Deal.
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Netrunner

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I never expected to read these forums and feel like the world's biggest Hopeless Romantic. Cynicism abounds. I get that no relationship is easy, and one like Marten and Claire are facing is even less so. Does that have to mean doom and gloom? Every relationship you have ever been in has failed untill you get to the one that doesn't. (It's why you don't keep looking for your keys after you've found them.) Does that mean that you give up and settle? I guess for some people, but I don't see Marten doing that. Yeah, shit happens. Yeah, when you're 20-something you are likely to go through a lot of relationships. Some last for a while, some burn bright and fizzle out. Some are just hook-ups. We've seen Marten in all of these situations. I hold out hope that the two of them will weather the storms just fine.
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T

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Ahh.  I've tried to avoid knowing as much about anime as possible in my life.
Probably a wise choice.
I don't think actively choosing ignorance over any issue is a wise choice.

Also check the title! http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1525
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Thedrd0nna

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WRT the whole "moe" thing: it appears that one of the central themes of moe, as I understand it, is innocence and submissiveness. Now, Claire has shown that when it comes to matters of the heart she's somewhat naive, but I hardly would say that her character as a whole is one of innocence-just look at her conversation with Clinton about judging risks and all that. And, when it comes to submissiveness, well, she had some pretty strong opinions that she didn't quash about Marten's lame orientation, and she's quick to call people out when she perceives them as being egotistical ("I knew [obscure artist] back when he had a whole first name"). I don't see her as being a cliche, is what I'm getting at.
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T

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WRT the whole "moe" thing: it appears that one of the central themes of moe, as I understand it, is innocence and submissiveness. Now, Claire has shown that when it comes to matters of the heart she's somewhat naive, but I hardly would say that her character as a whole is one of innocence-just look at her conversation with Clinton about judging risks and all that. And, when it comes to submissiveness, well, she had some pretty strong opinions that she didn't quash about Marten's lame orientation, and she's quick to call people out when she perceives them as being egotistical ("I knew [obscure artist] back when he had a whole first name"). I don't see her as being a cliche, is what I'm getting at.

Nope, just finish reading the sentence. Also Hanners is listed in the webcomic section of moe

Quote
The classical Moe character is highly associated with innocence, submission, helplessness and woobie characteristics (e.g., Fragile Flower, Shrinking Violet, Extreme Doormat, Dojikko, The Ingenue, etc., usually drawn with Tareme Eyes), although this does not need to be always the case. In many other, more modern variations, there is also a trend towards more upbeat and extroverted personalities that are far more unique, noticeable and recognizable

An easier to understand description is earlier in the TVtropes article:

Quote
A common definition is that Moe is the ability of a character to instill in the audience an irrational desire to adore them, hug them, protect them, comfort them, etc. To evoke a sort of Big Brother Instinct, in men and women.

It is a kind of character found in many works from Lés Misérables to Harry Potter.
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2014, 22:53 by T »
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mystere9

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I don't think actively choosing ignorance over any issue is a wise choice.
Sure it is! I actively choose to remain ignorant of sports, because the perceived benefit of having something to talk about with other males my age and any slight enjoyment I might derive from it don't outweigh in my mind the amount of time I would spend watching games.

I also actively choose to remain ignorant of my parent's sexuality, which I will maintain is a very wise choice!
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valkygrrl

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I don't think actively choosing ignorance over any issue is a wise choice.
Sure it is! I actively choose to remain ignorant of sports, because the perceived benefit of having something to talk about with other males my age and any slight enjoyment I might derive from it don't outweigh in my mind the amount of time I would spend watching games.

I also actively choose to remain ignorant of my parent's sexuality, which I will maintain is a very wise choice!

Your parents have sexuality? I'm so sorry. Gotta tell ya, being an immaculate conception is great :)
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no one special

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Congrats, Sir/Madam. I registered an account just to join the conversation because of you.

Awww thanks!  Glad you're joining the community! 


Have you never had a friend that suddenly became a romantic interest?
...
 I'd evaluate my feelings.

Sure, I've absolutely had that happen!  Shame I was always too chicken to follow up on it  :-\

When it happened to me, though, it was someone that I already at least had friend-chemistry with, someone I was already connecting with.  But there's been very little relationship development between these two!  Nothing to say, "hey, there's something there, maybe!"  He mused over the drunk-snuggle the same way he mused over Emily's cheek-kiss - noting to write home about there.  Even when he's in the bar and calls Claire his favorite, he says "you're all my favorite!"  Marten reaches out to Claire and invites her to things because that's what he does - he reaches out to people who seem like they need it.  He's helping her feel included, that's all.  If Emily wasn't so self-sufficient, he'd invite her out to stuff too.  There's no indication that they even have a deepening friendship, besides idle conversations at work.  It just feels like Marten falling into something because it's easy and she's has a crush, not through any real impetus of his own.

There's also the issue (for me) that she feels so much younger and impressionable.  She's trusted him with personal stuff, but what has she trusted her with?  What does he see in her?  What is it that makes it about her in particular?  I get that she has a crush on him, but it feels like an infatuation-crush, not like something Marten could sink his teeth into. 

Here's the thing: Let's compare Claire to Padma.  Marten didn't know Padma very long, just like he hasn't known Claire long.  But he and Padma could talk about things, they could banter back and forth, they could laugh, there was chemistry!  That I was totally into, I could understand that!  Plus, Padma was an adult, you know?  And her time with Marten felt like an adult relationship, brief as it was.  We haven't seen any of that with Claire.  He's been a confidant to Claire, sure, he's been a buddy.  But more than that?  It's just not there. 

With Padma, it felt natural. With Claire, it feels forced.

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mystere9

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I also actively choose to remain ignorant of my parent's sexuality, which I will maintain is a very wise choice!

Your parents have sexuality? I'm so sorry. Gotta tell ya, being an immaculate conception is great :)
Wait, they told you immaculate conception didn't involve sex? Yikes!


/blasphemy
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T

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I don't think actively choosing ignorance over any issue is a wise choice.
Sure it is! I actively choose to remain ignorant of sports, because the perceived benefit of having something to talk about with other males my age and any slight enjoyment I might derive from it don't outweigh in my mind the amount of time I would spend watching games.

I also actively choose to remain ignorant of my parent's sexuality, which I will maintain is a very wise choice!
Not dedicating time to something is not the same as actively avoiding knowing anything about it.
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Platypodes

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I've been thinking about ways in which Marten and Claire counterbalance each other.  Claire is passionate and goal-oriented but hasn't lived independently or dated; Marten has plenty of adult life experience but is still drifting along without knowing what he wants to be when he grows up.  Claire is high-strung, socially awkward, and has panic attacks, but she's brave about taking initiative and facing change; Marten is passive, a bit of a chicken, and hates change, but he's comfortable around people and is generally very even-tempered and laid back.

Put all this together, and you might have a relationship in which neither person is the dominant one.  That could be a good learning experience for both of them.  It'd be a comfortable space for Claire to grow into dating: if she fell for someone more Type A, she might just get swept along and not learn as much about herself and her needs and desires, but if she had a relationship in which she wound up leading too much, she might be torn apart by anxieties.  For Marten, well, he's been a bit overshadowed and sometimes dominated by the women in his life, and he might develop more of his manhood if he spends time with someone who, while not a doormat, isn't three times as assertive as he is.
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valkygrrl

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I also actively choose to remain ignorant of my parent's sexuality, which I will maintain is a very wise choice!

Your parents have sexuality? I'm so sorry. Gotta tell ya, being an immaculate conception is great :)
Wait, they told you immaculate conception didn't involve sex? Yikes!


/blasphemy

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
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Quote from: Tywin Lannister
Any man who must say, "I am the king" is no true king.

KOK

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If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix. Unless you're a hardcore prescriptivist, I don't see any way around the argument that burger, in modern common usage, denotes malleable foodstuffs molded into a patty that is then cooked.

Not in these parts. A chicken burger contains small pieces of roast chicken. Nothing resembling a patty.

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You're cute when you're reasonable.

Platypodes

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I don't think actively choosing ignorance over any issue is a wise choice.
Any issue?

You should hang out with Pintsize.  :wink:
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Toe

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Quote from: Vincent Adultman
I know everyone else likes that the strip has this lovey-dovey kindness and acceptance group therapy thing going on

I'm pretty sure half of what goes into this comic is Jeph's personal therapy. The other half being a tribute to Azumanga Daioh.
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T

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I don't think actively choosing ignorance over any issue is a wise choice.
Any issue?

You should hang out with Pintsize.  :wink:
Indeed. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2332

But I'm a knowledge hoarder so my opinion is biassed.
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TomOBedlam

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Some is so unsubtle, I can't believe others haven't commented on it. Just look at pupil size for goodness' sake.

Lol, spot on!  I was tempted to mention the size of their eyes (rather than the size of their pupils), but thought that it was too obvious and opted for 'body language' instead.
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feelsalmostbad

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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man? It would paint Marten in a new way because there was no pretext of him swinging that way or is it that Marten has gotten past all of that and is only looking at the person underneath?? Or is it that he thinks he can do that but will  find out that it just doesn't work on that level for him? Or is she biologically a girl.... but doesn't act on her gender....
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T

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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man? It would paint Marten in a new way because there was no pretext of him swinging that way or is it that Marten has gotten past all of that and is only looking at the person underneath?? Or is it that he thinks he can do that but will  find out that it just doesn't work on that level for him? Or is she biologically a girl.... but doesn't act on her gender....
Yes
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badbum61

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15 PAGES BY.......oh, wait.
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What the hell are YOU staring at?

feelsalmostbad

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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man? It would paint Marten in a new way because there was no pretext of him swinging that way or is it that Marten has gotten past all of that and is only looking at the person underneath?? Or is it that he thinks he can do that but will  find out that it just doesn't work on that level for him? Or is she biologically a girl.... but doesn't act on her gender....
Yes
:psyduck:
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BenRG

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Nope, no matter how many times I look at it Claire's faces are just so adorable.  That is what pure, unadulterated happiness looks like.

Yeah, Claire has been cute throughout the bar scene and aftermath. Jeph has really worked hard on her body language and I think that is why so many have become invested in this plot - We know what she feels and care enough that we want her to be okay. It's a triumph of his artwork, really.

I've said this before but Marten's decisiveness is something that has been developing for a while. Although it crashed and burned with Delilah, it did get him to the initial objective, just not the longer-term one. Combined with all his friends pairing off, I think that he's been thinking about which girl to try with for a while. Claire's special circumstances meant he had to be that much more self-reliant because he couldn't just discuss her with complete openness with anyone.

Can it work, long-term? The whole point of strip 2807 is that Marten doesn't know! He is proposing to date Claire to find out. By not just jumping to sex the way that he did with Dora, there is the opportunity to back off and salvage their friendship if things go bad. From what Marten has said, being on easy speaking terms with Dora was unusual with his exes; he probably ways to avoid a 'too hot, too fast thing with Claire.

I disagree with the suggestion that the strip has nowhere left to go. There is Momo and inclusiveness, Claire and inclusiveness, Hannelore's destiny (I wouldn't be surprised if she were her mother's clone with cybernetic 'upgrades' originally intended as a replacement body) and, of course, whether Marten will ever fulfill his dreams. So long as Jeph remains interested, I'll keep reading!
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plusorminus

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Here's the thing: Let's compare Claire to Padma.  Marten didn't know Padma very long, just like he hasn't known Claire long.  But he and Padma could talk about things, they could banter back and forth, they could laugh, there was chemistry!  That I was totally into, I could understand that!  Plus, Padma was an adult, you know?  And her time with Marten felt like an adult relationship, brief as it was.  We haven't seen any of that with Claire.  He's been a confidant to Claire, sure, he's been a buddy.  But more than that?  It's just not there. 

With Padma, it felt natural. With Claire, it feels forced.

While I'm not disputing this, per se, I'm having a hard time really spotting the differences. Marten really didn't pursue Padma, either. He gamely went along with her on hijinks with Sam and was cool with going out dancing because she asked, and they hooked up because it kinda was drifting that way. There was a ton of time between Marten and Steve running into Padma at the bar, which is probably when it became clear that Marten was into her, and the hooking up, and basically none of it was initiated by Marten himself, unless I'm forgetting something. Also, yes, they could banter, but we are also talking about Padma, who would not return Marten's calls even just to say goodbye. Not very adult from where I stand.

Your response, though, makes me wonder  because I hadn't considered that Marten is basically doing a repeat of the Dora situation, where he gets into a relationship with someone who has a huge crush on him, and who he liked well enough but likely would not necessarily have pursued. If Delilah had given him her number, I think Marten would have tried dating her. I'm not trying to say Marten is settling for Claire. I think he genuinely likes her and maybe the night out and seeing her with her hair down made him realize he was attracted to her. But I do sort of wonder if we'll ever see Marten in a relationship with someone for whom he has feelings similar to those he had with Faye - he was upfront about his attraction, willing to pursue, and bummed when it didn't happen.
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Loki

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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man? It would paint Marten in a new way because there was no pretext of him swinging that way or is it that Marten has gotten past all of that and is only looking at the person underneath?? Or is it that he thinks he can do that but will  find out that it just doesn't work on that level for him? Or is she biologically a girl.... but doesn't act on her gender....

Welcome, new person!

If you research the matter further, you'll find the term "biologically a man/a woman" fails to properly describe the situation in any case. After all, what are we but biology, no matter our bodies?

So Claire is a woman, because she identifies as a woman.

Moderator Comment If you intended it as a question about her genitalia: please don't discuss that. In the manner such discussions tend to go, they very quickly become disrespectful to real people, of which we have a-plenty on this board. Imho not discussing people's genitalia without their consent is basic human decency.
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T

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Your response, though, makes me wonder  because I hadn't considered that Marten is basically doing a repeat of the Dora situation, where he gets into a relationship with someone who has a huge crush on him, and who he liked well enough but likely would not necessarily have pursued. If Delilah had given him her number, I think Marten would have tried dating her. I'm not trying to say Marten is settling for Claire. I think he genuinely likes her and maybe the night out and seeing her with her hair down made him realize he was attracted to her. But I do sort of wonder if we'll ever see Marten in a relationship with someone for whom he has feelings similar to those he had with Faye - he was upfront about his attraction, willing to pursue, and bummed when it didn't happen.
Maybe he will
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BenRG

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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man? It would paint Marten in a new way because there was no pretext of him swinging that way or is it that Marten has gotten past all of that and is only looking at the person underneath?? Or is it that he thinks he can do that but will  find out that it just doesn't work on that level for him? Or is she biologically a girl.... but doesn't act on her gender....

I'll say this much: Her hips move like she's anatomically female. Men can walk like that but it takes conscious effort. Claire was half-asleep, so it is just how her body works. I'd say she's >80℅ through transition.
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Rghfrgl

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Maybe he will
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That ship sunk so long ago it's sitting in the middle of a desert.
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snubnose

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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man?
Well, if you check her DNA, yes. She (removed by moderator), she cant have babies, and she had to take hormones to make, for example, her breasts grow. In reality also her voice would be male-ish, and the chance that she's a lesbian would be very high (basically reverse chances than for ordinary people).

It would paint Marten in a new way because there was no pretext of him swinging that way
Why ? He was into women before ?

or is it that Marten has gotten past all of that and is only looking at the person underneath??
Only bisexuals have that "freedom".
« Last Edit: 09 Oct 2014, 15:26 by Is it cold in here? »
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Laws of sexual dynamics:
1. In a given dispute, the female is more likely to be correct.
2. If you think a girl is attracted to you, you are wrong.
Or in short: As a man, you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't quit !

Saabstory88

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Congrats, Sir/Madam. I registered an account just to join the conversation because of you.

Awww thanks!  Glad you're joining the community! 


Have you never had a friend that suddenly became a romantic interest?
...
 I'd evaluate my feelings.

Sure, I've absolutely had that happen!  Shame I was always too chicken to follow up on it  :-\

When it happened to me, though, it was someone that I already at least had friend-chemistry with, someone I was already connecting with.  But there's been very little relationship development between these two!  Nothing to say, "hey, there's something there, maybe!"  He mused over the drunk-snuggle the same way he mused over Emily's cheek-kiss - noting to write home about there.  Even when he's in the bar and calls Claire his favorite, he says "you're all my favorite!"  Marten reaches out to Claire and invites her to things because that's what he does - he reaches out to people who seem like they need it.  He's helping her feel included, that's all.  If Emily wasn't so self-sufficient, he'd invite her out to stuff too.  There's no indication that they even have a deepening friendship, besides idle conversations at work.  It just feels like Marten falling into something because it's easy and she's has a crush, not through any real impetus of his own.

There's also the issue (for me) that she feels so much younger and impressionable.  She's trusted him with personal stuff, but what has she trusted her with?  What does he see in her?  What is it that makes it about her in particular?  I get that she has a crush on him, but it feels like an infatuation-crush, not like something Marten could sink his teeth into. 

Here's the thing: Let's compare Claire to Padma.  Marten didn't know Padma very long, just like he hasn't known Claire long.  But he and Padma could talk about things, they could banter back and forth, they could laugh, there was chemistry!  That I was totally into, I could understand that!  Plus, Padma was an adult, you know?  And her time with Marten felt like an adult relationship, brief as it was.  We haven't seen any of that with Claire.  He's been a confidant to Claire, sure, he's been a buddy.  But more than that?  It's just not there. 

With Padma, it felt natural. With Claire, it feels forced.

As with most of the discussion to be found, it seems as though everyone is assuming that each character is acting towards a best case scenario. Even those who would say these action are out of character, are saying so because they assume that the story will be written in such a way that trends, from the beginning, towards a a favorable outcome. I have read several comments which seem to allude to this story line being pursued because of they think Jeph has a certain social agenda, or otherwise pandering. Might it be, that he does have an agenda, but it is not one which has been fully considered.

Disclaimer: If any of the following is against forum rules, please let me know, and i will refrain from discussing such things in the future, I have not been here for that long.

It seems that so many people have been assuming that Jeph's message is that two people can be in a relationship, regardless of any issues resulting from gender identity, or from being trans. What if that's not the point, there may actually be a different end game. After continuing to re-read the various strips with Marten and Claire, I can truly see the arguments from both sides as to whether or not the relationship developed naturally. Perhaps, in the end, they are not actually compatible people. We of course can not know that yet, and I do not feel like getting into listing all of the various pros and cons of their relationship. But, what this makes me wonder about, is if Jeph is trying to make a statement, maybe he will have them break up. Maybe it will be horrible. This will lead into a more important point. While it can be something that an author wants to talk about, when he creates a cis and trans character who get together, is it not a more powerful point to create these characters which end up apart because of their base incompatibility, and not something resulting from any of their perceived gender identity issues?

To elaborate, if you want to expound upon these issues, as out dear author may wish to, if you have a cis/trans couple get together, and then split, having a real, underlying personality conflict, will eliminate any speculation about whether the relationship ended because of any transphobic complications. This is possibly even a more powerful message than getting them together in the first place, because the reasons for their breakup are clear, and not related to any perceived trans issues. The reason that is see this as being a likely outcome, is that, while I like Claire as a person, I just don't think we have even met the person that Marten is meant to be with. It just seems too soon in the progression of the story. I don't know, it seems like either there is going to be a breakup, or there is going to be a marriage, how else would the story end properly? It would seem less likely to me that Jeph is going to eliminate all of the struggle from Marten's character in the foreseeable future, so the likely outcome is breakup.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.
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