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This week on QC...

Now departing the USS MartenClaire *bell rings*
- 122 (56.7%)
Jephizba trolls us all, hallowed be the trollmaster's name.
- 32 (14.9%)
Spatheham and Clairemom Pancakes
- 7 (3.3%)
A solid week of Steve eating cereal
- 9 (4.2%)
Martenmom and Clairemom team up and fight crime/meddle in their children's personal lives
- 45 (20.9%)

Total Members Voted: 203

Voting closed: 09 Oct 2014, 22:04


Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19 ... 32   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT: 2806-2810 (6th - 10th October 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread  (Read 144246 times)

valkygrrl

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Do you have any scientific source? Like published papers instead of stuff from random websites?

the articles cite their sources. Is there a reason you insist on seeing males and females as different rather than as people who are treated differently based on physical differences? Why do you wish to justify the stupid social expectations that put dolls in the hands of girls and blocks into the hands of boys instead of giving both to both?
There is no scientific source, only a book and people can write anything they want on their books.

Also I oppose to this because people are what they are and try to change this is no good. Sometimes a girl is born with a more masculine brain and a boy is born with a more feminine brain and many parents try their best to change it.

I know a brother and sister that was like this. Since they were very small the girl played and interested in more masculine activities and toys while the boy was the other way around to the dismay of their parents. They tried their best to make the girl girly and the boy macho but no matter how much nurture was offered she continued ignoring dolls and instead playing with cars and swords while the boy continued being delicate and social.

I don't know about sexual preference, they still haven't demonstrated nothing on these lines and brain type doesn't necessarily match with sexual preferences.

Some things are part of what you are and no amount of nurturing can change that. You don't make a gay guy start liking women by educating him to like women, or a lesbian become straight.

Why are you defining activities as masculine and feminine? Sure people for whatever reason can be inclined to interests. That doesn't make those interests male or female that doesn't make a brain male or female. If someone likes playing with dolls (I did and even now sometimes do, don't you judge me!) that doesn't mean the doll part of the brain is female any more than someone who likes swords (I did and do, again don't you judge me) has some male part of the brain. It is just a brain and you are trying to impose gender onto it. Why are you doing this?

And none of that means they haven't been, won't be, and can't be influenced by social pressure to take on or reject other activities. And your reaction is to sit here and impose gender on the behaviors they do show? Why why why why are you doing this? If someone doesn't fit into the pink or blue box their brain must be different? That's insulting not only to them not only to anyone who doesn't conform to every single cultural exception but to anyone who does conform to a society other than your own. ideas of what is properly masculine and feminine aren't universal you know? Your explanations would lead men in Saudi Arabia to assume American women must naturally have more masculine brains than Saudi women.  Do you want to claim that's the case?

Wouldn't it be better to say rejecting dolls is nothing more than a case of individual preference rather than masculine behavior 
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hedgie

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Also, this is a privately run forum, not a forum run by the US government, and therefore you have no rights. See http://xkcd.com/1357/.
There truly is an xkcd for every occasion.
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no one special

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  • I been rockin' this brainslug since I was like, 5.

We had been close friends for about 5 years, never really showed any romantic interest in each other (although there was attraction).  Then one day, it just kinda happened. 

Right, but you'd been close friends for 5 years!  That's a perfect time for that to happen, absolutely - plus, being close for so long tells you how well you get along already.  But Claire and Marten?  They haven't even had time to get that close.

To elaborate, if you want to expound upon these issues, as out dear author may wish to, if you have a cis/trans couple get together, and then split, having a real, underlying personality conflict, will eliminate any speculation about whether the relationship ended because of any transphobic complications. This is possibly even a more powerful message than getting them together in the first place, because the reasons for their breakup are clear, and not related to any perceived trans issues. The reason that is see this as being a likely outcome, is that, while I like Claire as a person, I just don't think we have even met the person that Marten is meant to be with. It just seems too soon in the progression of the story. I don't know, it seems like either there is going to be a breakup, or there is going to be a marriage, how else would the story end properly? It would seem less likely to me that Jeph is going to eliminate all of the struggle from Marten's character in the foreseeable future, so the likely outcome is breakup.

Preach!!!  Great thoughts.
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Lubricus

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How am I not supposed to take that as combative? Presented with an opportunity to educate you instead choose to ridicule.

And this is why I just plain don't go near this particular Sacred Cow with a ten foot pole. It seems next to impossible to educate yourself on the issue without being demonized for not being already educated on the issue. I get that it's a touchy subject, but man am I ever tired of the combative, "more enemies prove my cause is righteous" attitude. Nobody ever taught me about this shit in my sheltered little life, and I'm supportive of whatever increases general happiness in the world. But try to ask a couple unintentionally awkward questions to gain a better understanding and you get labeled all sorts of nasty adjectives and nouns.

Keep in mind that transpersons (transpeople?) have to face attacks on their gender identities ALL THE TIME, and should not have to do so when discussing a webcomic. So a bit of extra sensitivity from the rest of us really isn't much to ask, is it?
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Half Empty Coffee Cup

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You know, I had this whole big post typed up. It was nice and scientific, too. Then I realized what's at the root of the argument between valkygrrl and T. This makes it way easier to cut through the nonsense.

*ahem*

Gender roles are not gender.

valkygrrl is arguing about gender roles.
T is arguing about gender. (while accidentally citing examples with gender roles, confusing things)

Example: Person A is a female, but hates the accoutrement that society likes to baggage her with: dresses, pink, notions of who should do what, and all that. The accoutrement would be the work of gender roles, and this is not intrinsic. The fact that Person A is female would be gender itself, and it's this which is wired.

We can all whack ourselves with the palms of our hands, realizing how we've been talking past each other now. (Myself included, given how long the post I deleted in favor of this was.)
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Mistakes, ahoy!

BenRG

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One of the running themes of the comic could be said to be Marten's climb out of the status of being "Fate's butt-monkey". The sci-fi fanatic in me considers the logical final step to be for him to step in Steve's shoes and have an action/adventure arc. Maybe saving Hannelore from her mother's evil plots (I'd love to see Beatrice doing a Dr Evil-style pinkie evil laugh).
:-D :-D :-D

Would that be after he becomes Marten the Fireman?

More like The Handyman. Stuff breaks so they call him in to fix it. Petty local strong-men, bandits or pirates, barons of commerce, religions, politicians or even whole countries! No job is too big!

Seriously, though, I can see something very dark coming out about Hannelore's origins. The plan has long since been cancelled but I suspect that Hannelore's mental issues and her very unusual childhood might all stem from a very unusual origin story. At the very least, I suspect she's Beatrice's clone. At the very worst, Beatrice was planning to be immortal and Hannelore, the person, was never originally meant to be more than a place-holder to keep Beatrice's next brain warm and working properly until she took up residence.

This, by the way, is why I think Hannelore had that waking nightmare moment where she dreamt she was in her mother's position and was about to do something horrible to the world. I believe that Beatrice and Dr John had discussed her long-term plans in front of what they then perceived as nothing but a blank slate and, on a subconscious level, Hannelore knows what her mother had planned to do to her and with her.

Things changed; I suspect that the Elliot-Chathams weren't able to maintain the necessary emotional detachment from the clone. I suspect, originally, they felt that a certain degree of mental stimulation was necessary to stop the clone's brain from degenerating into a mess. However, as they observed Station's interaction with the clone, she became more and more a person in their eyes and they couldn't go through with it. The 'divorce' was probably actually the consequence of a disagreement between Dr John and Beatrice about what to do with the clone (maybe Beatrice wanted her euthanasised to cover their tracks but Dr John had come to love Hannelore too much). It would explain Beatrice's emotional detachment from Hannelore if she is only now beginning to come to terms with her being an individual and a real person.
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Platypodes

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Dang, Ben, you could write some freakin' awesome fanfiction.

I want to see the showdown between Marten and Hannermom in spaaaaaace!
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Vincent Adultman

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How am I not supposed to take that as combative? Presented with an opportunity to educate you instead choose to ridicule.

And this is why I just plain don't go near this particular Sacred Cow with a ten foot pole. It seems next to impossible to educate yourself on the issue without being demonized for not being already educated on the issue. I get that it's a touchy subject, but man am I ever tired of the combative, "more enemies prove my cause is righteous" attitude. Nobody ever taught me about this shit in my sheltered little life, and I'm supportive of whatever increases general happiness in the world. But try to ask a couple unintentionally awkward questions to gain a better understanding and you get labeled all sorts of nasty adjectives and nouns.

Keep in mind that transpersons (transpeople?) have to face attacks on their gender identities ALL THE TIME, and should not have to do so when discussing a webcomic. So a bit of extra sensitivity from the rest of us really isn't much to ask, is it?

That's a nice sentiment that I agree with, but doesn't really address what I was talking about. I'm not saying the trans community and their supporters should suck it up and bear attacks. I'm saying that they should refrain from attacking. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that? More flies with honey than vinegar? Maybe if you want people to be on your side for an issue you should stop treating them like an enemy.
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BenRG

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Dang, Ben, you could write some freakin' awesome fanfiction.

Yeah, the problem is that, like Marten, I'm fundamentally lazy. Big plans, big ideas but rarely the discipline to see them through!

Now, onto a different subject. Who'd like a funny story arc of a Mom-bar-crawl? Beatrice, Veronica and Mrs A all run into each other in CoD (all there for their own reasons) and find a weird kind of kinship from the fact their children are all wrapped up in each other's lives. They go to a bar to discuss abnormal child development/family dynamics and end up getting trashed and trashing a few bars.

Cut to next morning and Marten, Hannelore and Claire are bailing them out. They look pretty worse for the wear; Mrs A has a piercing that she doesn't remember having before and Beatrice is sure that she didn't have a "My Daughter is a Metal Goddess" tattoo on the small of her back before. Jimbo is in the next-door lock-up and tells Marten that he thinks he is in love.
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T

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Do you have any scientific source? Like published papers instead of stuff from random websites?

the articles cite their sources. Is there a reason you insist on seeing males and females as different rather than as people who are treated differently based on physical differences? Why do you wish to justify the stupid social expectations that put dolls in the hands of girls and blocks into the hands of boys instead of giving both to both?
There is no scientific source, only a book and people can write anything they want on their books.

Also I oppose to this because people are what they are and try to change this is no good. Sometimes a girl is born with a more masculine brain and a boy is born with a more feminine brain and many parents try their best to change it.

I know a brother and sister that was like this. Since they were very small the girl played and interested in more masculine activities and toys while the boy was the other way around to the dismay of their parents. They tried their best to make the girl girly and the boy macho but no matter how much nurture was offered she continued ignoring dolls and instead playing with cars and swords while the boy continued being delicate and social.

I don't know about sexual preference, they still haven't demonstrated nothing on these lines and brain type doesn't necessarily match with sexual preferences.

Some things are part of what you are and no amount of nurturing can change that. You don't make a gay guy start liking women by educating him to like women, or a lesbian become straight.

Why are you defining activities as masculine and feminine? Sure people for whatever reason can be inclined to interests. That doesn't make those interests male or female that doesn't make a brain male or female. If someone likes playing with dolls (I did and even now sometimes do, don't you judge me!) that doesn't mean the doll part of the brain is female any more than someone who likes swords (I did and do, again don't you judge me) has some male part of the brain. It is just a brain and you are trying to impose gender onto it. Why are you doing this?

And none of that means they haven't been, won't be, and can't be influenced by social pressure to take on or reject other activities. And your reaction is to sit here and impose gender on the behaviors they do show? Why why why why are you doing this? If someone doesn't fit into the pink or blue box their brain must be different? That's insulting not only to them not only to anyone who doesn't conform to every single cultural exception but to anyone who does conform to a society other than your own. ideas of what is properly masculine and feminine aren't universal you know? Your explanations would lead men in Saudi Arabia to assume American women must naturally have more masculine brains than Saudi women.  Do you want to claim that's the case?

Wouldn't it be better to say rejecting dolls is nothing more than a case of individual preference rather than masculine behavior
It is very simple. Some traits are more common in a certain group than others, this doesn't means that this trait is exclusive to this group, just that it is more common. Now why does this trait is more common? Many studies have shown that trait A is linked to factor B.

Gender differences in behavior is a common occurence in many animals, not just humans. Female lab rats exposed to masculine hormones during certain stages of intrauterine development demonstrated more masculine beheavior patterns during adulthood including the way they respond to stress. Humans are not special beings unaffected by nature's laws.

You clearly demonstrate a lack of scientific education. Nothing wrong with that. People outside the scientific field are not obligued to. But it would be nice if people learned the basics before they accept anything they read on the internet.

I defend that the same way that there are different hair colors and shapes there are people with different affinities and tastes and variety makes the world beautiful. Each person is unique from before birth and not a simple white canvas waiting to be painting by nurturing
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valkygrrl

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You know, I had this whole big post typed up. It was nice and scientific, too. Then I realized what's at the root of the argument between valkygrrl and T. This makes it way easier to cut through the nonsense.

*ahem*

Gender roles are not gender.

valkygrrl is arguing about gender roles.
T is arguing about gender. (while accidentally citing examples with gender roles, confusing things)

Example: Person A is a female, but hates the accoutrement that society likes to baggage her with: dresses, pink, notions of who should do what, and all that. The accoutrement would be the work of gender roles, and this is not intrinsic. The fact that Person A is female would be gender itself, and it's this which is wired.

We can all whack ourselves with the palms of our hands, realizing how we've been talking past each other now. (Myself included, given how long the post I deleted in favor of this was.)

Minor quibble. Male and female are sexes. Man and woman are genders as they're defined by social role and exceptions as evidenced in this very thread where people suggest Marten is finally or should finally 'be a man' or man up or other phraseology that suggests that he should fit better into a role they expect. There's no question about his being male, there is argument about whether he's being a man.

But aside from that minor bit of terminology and the belief that T _is_ arguing gender _roles_ are innate to the brains of males and females.... Yeah.
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Platypodes

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Dang, Ben, you could write some freakin' awesome fanfiction.

Yeah, the problem is that, like Marten, I'm fundamentally lazy. Big plans, big ideas but rarely the discipline to see them through!
Aww darn.  I would love to read it.

Would Hannermom be in league with Dr. Heteronormative?
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Tub

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We are getting an alarming number of newbies who just don't get it.
To be fair, it is something anyone is unlikely to get without spending some serious thought and/or research on the matter. Asking questions sure is annoying if it happens every other page, but I wouldn't generally fault the newbies for it.

That's why I feel it is important to shed some light on what Marten is really thinking and feeling.
Hasn't today's comic? He's feeling that whatever happens, he's willing to work through it. Isn't that good enough for an answer?

Seriously, though, I can see something very dark coming out about Hannelore's origins. The plan has long since been cancelled but I suspect that Hannelore's mental issues and her very unusual childhood might all stem from a very unusual origin story.
Or maybe just from a mental problem worsened by growing up in a disfunctional family. Have you seen her mother?
There's no need for a cloning accident to explain the problems hannelore has.
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Platypodes

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Or maybe just from a mental problem worsened by growing up in a disfunctional family. Have you seen her mother?
There's no need for a cloning accident to explain the problems hannelore has.
Certainly--but an evil cloning plot is far more entertaining.
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valkygrrl

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Do you have any scientific source? Like published papers instead of stuff from random websites?

the articles cite their sources. Is there a reason you insist on seeing males and females as different rather than as people who are treated differently based on physical differences? Why do you wish to justify the stupid social expectations that put dolls in the hands of girls and blocks into the hands of boys instead of giving both to both?
There is no scientific source, only a book and people can write anything they want on their books.

Also I oppose to this because people are what they are and try to change this is no good. Sometimes a girl is born with a more masculine brain and a boy is born with a more feminine brain and many parents try their best to change it.

I know a brother and sister that was like this. Since they were very small the girl played and interested in more masculine activities and toys while the boy was the other way around to the dismay of their parents. They tried their best to make the girl girly and the boy macho but no matter how much nurture was offered she continued ignoring dolls and instead playing with cars and swords while the boy continued being delicate and social.

I don't know about sexual preference, they still haven't demonstrated nothing on these lines and brain type doesn't necessarily match with sexual preferences.

Some things are part of what you are and no amount of nurturing can change that. You don't make a gay guy start liking women by educating him to like women, or a lesbian become straight.

Why are you defining activities as masculine and feminine? Sure people for whatever reason can be inclined to interests. That doesn't make those interests male or female that doesn't make a brain male or female. If someone likes playing with dolls (I did and even now sometimes do, don't you judge me!) that doesn't mean the doll part of the brain is female any more than someone who likes swords (I did and do, again don't you judge me) has some male part of the brain. It is just a brain and you are trying to impose gender onto it. Why are you doing this?

And none of that means they haven't been, won't be, and can't be influenced by social pressure to take on or reject other activities. And your reaction is to sit here and impose gender on the behaviors they do show? Why why why why are you doing this? If someone doesn't fit into the pink or blue box their brain must be different? That's insulting not only to them not only to anyone who doesn't conform to every single cultural exception but to anyone who does conform to a society other than your own. ideas of what is properly masculine and feminine aren't universal you know? Your explanations would lead men in Saudi Arabia to assume American women must naturally have more masculine brains than Saudi women.  Do you want to claim that's the case?

Wouldn't it be better to say rejecting dolls is nothing more than a case of individual preference rather than masculine behavior
It is very simple. Some traits are more common in a certain group than others, this doesn't means that this trait is exclusive to this group, just that it is more common. Now why does this trait is more common? Many studies have shown that trait A is linked to factor B.

Gender differences in behavior is a common occurence in many animals, not just humans. Female lab rats exposed to masculine hormones during certain stages of intrauterine development demonstrated more masculine beheavior patterns during adulthood including the way they respond to stress. Humans are not special beings unaffected by nature's laws.

You clearly demonstrate a lack of scientific education. Nothing wrong with that. People outside the scientific field are not obligued to. But it would be nice if people learned the basics before they accept anything they read on the internet.

I defend that the same way that there are different hair colors and shapes there are people with different affinities and tastes and variety makes the world beautiful. Each person is unique from before birth and not a simple white canvas waiting to be painting by nurturing

Hormones in rats have what to do with the behavior of pre-pubescent children? In one breath you claim behavior is innate and in the next that its hormonal and I'm the one who doesn't know science? Is that because I have girl brain or because estrogen induced a love of strawberry shortcake dolls kept me away from the science books with all those big words?
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BenRG

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Seriously, though, I can see something very dark coming out about Hannelore's origins. The plan has long since been cancelled but I suspect that Hannelore's mental issues and her very unusual childhood might all stem from a very unusual origin story.
Or maybe just from a mental problem worsened by growing up in a disfunctional family. Have you seen her mother?
There's no need for a cloning accident to explain the problems hannelore has.

Not a cloning accident. More an equipment handling and maintenance accident.

Have you seen Hannelore's 'play room' on the station, by the way? Those issues were at the upper extreme end.
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ElsaStegosaurus

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How am I not supposed to take that as combative? Presented with an opportunity to educate you instead choose to ridicule.

And this is why I just plain don't go near this particular Sacred Cow with a ten foot pole. It seems next to impossible to educate yourself on the issue without being demonized for not being already educated on the issue. I get that it's a touchy subject, but man am I ever tired of the combative, "more enemies prove my cause is righteous" attitude. Nobody ever taught me about this shit in my sheltered little life, and I'm supportive of whatever increases general happiness in the world. But try to ask a couple unintentionally awkward questions to gain a better understanding and you get labeled all sorts of nasty adjectives and nouns.

Keep in mind that transpersons (transpeople?) have to face attacks on their gender identities ALL THE TIME, and should not have to do so when discussing a webcomic. So a bit of extra sensitivity from the rest of us really isn't much to ask, is it?

Thank you.  This thread has become simply exhausting to read.  We are not obligated to educate.  Sometimes we just want to exist without being reminded CONSTANTLY about all the shit and doubt about our identities that gets thrown our way.

EDIT: I use "trans people".  Sometimes I accidentally type it as trains people to hilarious confusion.
« Last Edit: 08 Oct 2014, 02:57 by ElsaStegosaurus »
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Platypodes

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I missed the suggesion of the "mom bar crawl" on the first pass. That would be fun.

Ever since Claire's mom came on the scene, I've been wanting a meeting between her and Veronica.  I imagine they'd hit it off in a hilarious fashion.

Now, Beatrice might not hit it off so well with either of them.  And there could be an awesome clash of wills.

Really strong-willed moms seem to be a pattern so far in QC.
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Gnomeybum

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Not gonna lie, I am really horrified by the amount of people who seem to have joined up with the sole purpose of asking about Claire's hypothetical genitals.

And for those of you saying that 'we are just curious' or 'we just wanna learn more', you gave up the right to that innocence when you became defensive and aggressive in your tone. Whilst Claire may be fictional, she represents the Trans community in this comic, and so to act entitled and annoyed when the private matter of someone's junk is not divulged to you is when this whole thing becomes transphobic.

I don't pretend to know what it is like to be trans on a day by day basis. I'm trying to imagine anything in my life even remotely comparable. So, even though I know it is not even nearly the same, I'm thinking of what it's like to be as girl in a nightclub with massive boobs. People grope them without permission, stare at them the whole time and ask what size they are. And once you have been reduced to the sum of your parts like that, all you feel like is a demoralised, dehumanised piece of meat.

Now imagine someone is doing that to you, but they are focusing on a part of you that is not necessarily (sorry, I'm trying to avoid the 'does she/doesn't she' debate here) in line with the way you identify yourself. And they do that constantly, always asking, always 'just curious' or 'just trying to learn more'.

You are not entitled to know what is anyone's pants, fictional or otherwise. So, please, just stop.
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hedgie

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That's a nice sentiment that I agree with, but doesn't really address what I was talking about. I'm not saying the trans community and their supporters should suck it up and bear attacks. I'm saying that they should refrain from attacking. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that? More flies with honey than vinegar? Maybe if you want people to be on your side for an issue you should stop treating them like an enemy.
There's the Trans* thread for discussion, and a lot of sometimes heartbreaking reading.  When it comes to Claire, this equine has been beaten into the ground so hard that there's nothing for Nietzsche to run up and try to protect.
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ElsaStegosaurus

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How am I not supposed to take that as combative? Presented with an opportunity to educate you instead choose to ridicule.

And this is why I just plain don't go near this particular Sacred Cow with a ten foot pole. It seems next to impossible to educate yourself on the issue without being demonized for not being already educated on the issue. I get that it's a touchy subject, but man am I ever tired of the combative, "more enemies prove my cause is righteous" attitude. Nobody ever taught me about this shit in my sheltered little life, and I'm supportive of whatever increases general happiness in the world. But try to ask a couple unintentionally awkward questions to gain a better understanding and you get labeled all sorts of nasty adjectives and nouns.

Keep in mind that transpersons (transpeople?) have to face attacks on their gender identities ALL THE TIME, and should not have to do so when discussing a webcomic. So a bit of extra sensitivity from the rest of us really isn't much to ask, is it?

That's a nice sentiment that I agree with, but doesn't really address what I was talking about. I'm not saying the trans community and their supporters should suck it up and bear attacks. I'm saying that they should refrain from attacking. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that? More flies with honey than vinegar? Maybe if you want people to be on your side for an issue you should stop treating them like an enemy.

Guh.  I've seen this argument more times than I can count: telling non-privileged groups to smile and be nice and surely more people will be more willing to listen to them.  You look at history and see that this simply is not true, minority groups have to scrape and fight and claw for every inch that they gain.  Telling us to smile and talk softly is a form of control.  "Well, I could support you and what you stand for, but I don't like your tone."  That's... not a great message to give.

Warning - while you were typing 3-billion jillion new replies have been posted. You may wish to reconsider your life.
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stuffandthings

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I'm really sorry for being ignorant, but what does it mean that Claire is trans?
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Yeesh.  I'm gonna turn off my computer, go look at the lunar eclipse, and leave this thread alone till it gets fun again.   *waves*
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Vincent Adultman

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"Well, I could support you and what you stand for, but I don't like your tone."  That's... not a great message to give.

Great, good thing that wasn't at all what I was trying to say. But I see how this shit always goes. Try to extend the olive branch and get thorns thrown back at you. Point out that you're just trying to help/understand and get MORE hate. Fuck it. I'll just go back to not caring on way or the other. Nothing I say can be right, so I'm just going to stop saying things. Enjoy your little victory, brave crusaders. You've driven away another infidel today...

(moderator comment. Tone policing applies to everyone.  :police: This post is not how we want to do things here.)
« Last Edit: 09 Oct 2014, 15:22 by Is it cold in here? »
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badpun

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I've been reading the forum for the last week then it occurred to me I probably set up an account back when I first started reading the comic in like 2010 and voila here it is  :laugh:

Really happy that the Marten/Claire ship has left the dock, interested in where it'll go. Seems like starting out by being upfront and  being prepared to talk about problems when they arise. Seems like a solid start to a happy relationship  :-D

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Gnomeybum

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"Well, I could support you and what you stand for, but I don't like your tone."  That's... not a great message to give.

Great, good thing that wasn't at all what I was trying to say. But I see how this shit always goes. Try to extend the olive branch and get thorns thrown back at you. Point out that you're just trying to help/understand and get MORE hate. Fuck it. I'll just go back to not caring on way or the other. Nothing I say can be right, so I'm just going to stop saying things. Enjoy your little victory, brave crusaders. You've driven away another infidel today...

This is called gaslighting, friend, and it is an action used by abusers to make the people they are abusing doubt the validity of their unhappiness or their opposition to the abuser's behaviour.
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ElsaStegosaurus

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"Well, I could support you and what you stand for, but I don't like your tone."  That's... not a great message to give.

Great, good thing that wasn't at all what I was trying to say. But I see how this shit always goes. Try to extend the olive branch and get thorns thrown back at you. Point out that you're just trying to help/understand and get MORE hate. Fuck it. I'll just go back to not caring on way or the other. Nothing I say can be right, so I'm just going to stop saying things. Enjoy your little victory, brave crusaders. You've driven away another infidel today...

But... but then, that's exactly what you just did.  Just now.  Threw up your hands and walked away cuz someone dared try to explain why they act a certain way without handling your emotions with kid gloves.  Wow.  Bye.

And this is why I just plain don't go near this particular Sacred Cow with a ten foot pole. It seems next to impossible to educate yourself on the issue without being demonized for not being already educated on the issue. I get that it's a touchy subject, but man am I ever tired of the combative, "more enemies prove my cause is righteous" attitude. Nobody ever taught me about this shit in my sheltered little life, and I'm supportive of whatever increases general happiness in the world. But try to ask a couple unintentionally awkward questions to gain a better understanding and you get labeled all sorts of nasty adjectives and nouns.

False.  Read the trans thread, do some basic googling.  How to treat Trans people like humans and as something other than their genitalia is not a new question.  Is educating yourself that hard?  :psyduck:

Here, go nuts.  First one is on the house: http://transwhat.org/
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I. Love. This. Post.

We are getting an alarming number of newbies who just don't get it.

How am I not supposed to take that as combative? Presented with an opportunity to educate you instead choose to ridicule.

In fairness, I didn't intend to ridicule per se, but my post was perhaps slightly crass.

I have painted myself as somewhat of an asshole here, so I'm going to try and play devil's advocate for a moment.



This thread is long as shit, so I am well past the point of knowing who exactly has said what, I simply chose to highlight a great post.

[Vince McMahon 2001]In the interest of fairness[/Vince McMahon 2001] and in the absence of some of our more enlightened forumites, I'm going to make an attempt to respond to some of the stuff that hasn't been responded to yet, given that I was once pretty ignorant of these issues and it was this forum that largely straightened me out.

That's a nice sentiment that I agree with, but doesn't really address what I was talking about. I'm not saying the trans community and their supporters should suck it up and bear attacks. I'm saying that they should refrain from attacking. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that? More flies with honey than vinegar? Maybe if you want people to be on your side for an issue you should stop treating them like an enemy.

I agree entirely, and there was recently a pretty major issue regarding someone doing more or less exactly that, who was given a lot of chances and failed to learn their lesson. Without reading through every last damn page of this thread, I'm not sure who in particular you're referring to, but honestly, I think that a lot of this is down to lack of tone reading well on the internet, both of your posts, and of the responses from the regulars.

The regular forumites on here, especially our thriving trans community, will always at least attempt to go the route of educating rather than yelling at, and if any of the posts have come across that way, as a decade-long member of this forum I can say that will absolutely not have been the intention. There is also most likely an issue with the fact that a lot of the people participating in the recent explosion of trans discussion are brand new forumites, and without previous character to go on, the reading of people's tone in a forum post will be even worse than when it's someone who the community already has a feel of.

But aside from that minor bit of terminology and the belief that T _is_ arguing gender _roles_ are innate to the brains of males and females.... Yeah.

Without being ridiculous here, how many of us have the scientific nous beyond anecdotal evidence to say yay or nay on this? I certainly wouldn't have the authority to comment. I don't think T is necessarily saying 'dudes have this brain, chicks have this brain,' I don't think T is necessarily even arguing rock solid causation, so much as correlation.

And for those of you saying that 'we are just curious' or 'we just wanna learn more', you gave up the right to that innocence when you became defensive and aggressive in your tone.

The right to innocence perhaps, but not the right to education. No one is obligated, obviously, but faced with any kind of prejudice, however vehement and however deliberate, I've always sought the educational route because it's generally the most successful one. Not that I'm accusing anyone here of failing at that. But tempers can be heightened and have in this thread on both sides.

Guh.  I've seen this argument more times than I can count: telling non-privileged groups to smile and be nice and surely more people will be more willing to listen to them.  You look at history and see that this simply is not true, minority groups have to scrape and fight and claw for every inch that they gain.  Telling us to smile and talk softly is a form of control.  "Well, I could support you and what you stand for, but I don't like your tone."  That's... not a great message to give.

I don't entirely agree. I'm not saying that any non-privileged group should just smile and be nice or any shit like that. If some asshole is hassling you in a bar then being nice may very well get you sweet fucking nowhere. And again, no one is OBLIGATED, but I have met trans* individuals before who can be massively alienating to people who want to learn by meeting aggression with aggression. But then this is a massive grey area and I'm not part of this particular non-privileged group.

I'm really sorry for being ignorant, but what does it mean that Claire is trans?

This will take a while to respond to, and I'll do it later if no one else does before me.

Great, good thing that wasn't at all what I was trying to say. But I see how this shit always goes. Try to extend the olive branch and get thorns thrown back at you. Point out that you're just trying to help/understand and get MORE hate. Fuck it. I'll just go back to not caring on way or the other. Nothing I say can be right, so I'm just going to stop saying things. Enjoy your little victory, brave crusaders. You've driven away another infidel today...

This post, on the other hand, is pointless martyring that achieves nothing, and reads pretty strongly like 'well guess I'll just be prejudiced because you have now justified it.' 'This' is not at all how this shit 'always goes.'

Look people, I'm not a mod, but I have been here on this forum for a dog's fucking age, more than the majority of the mods even, and I can say one thing for certain.

This community is a place for open discussion, contributions from either side of any issue, and the acknowledgement of prejudices, conscious or otherwise, that can then be discussed and educated over.

Tempers have flared in this thread, but this thread is a pretty appalling example of what this place is actually about. Above all else, this particular thread is here to discuss the immediate happenings of the comic, not an in-depth discussion of trans rights. Had this discussion been in any of the more suitable places for it, rather than just on a thread series that's typically more about jokes and squeeeeee-ing, maybe it would have gone a little better.

And even if you disregard everything else that has been said in response to you by the trans community on here, folks, the links to the articles posted by ZoeB, who is one of the most insightful and educated people I've ever encountered, are still worth reading. If you take nothing else away from this thread, take that.
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hedgie

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Gods, I hope that for a week, starting with the next week, we get wacky robot fun or at least just CoD drama just so things settle a bit.

Why am I having flashbacks to much earlier in Sept 1993 than the 7708th?
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Forgotten Felix

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So, after having found myself lurking the forums during this entire arc, I thought I might as well join. And hoo boy, what a mess this thread became.
So, while I can't set myself in the position of transpeople, and may not understand a lot of it, I realize that other peoples feelings are more important than my own curiosity. Also this is not really the place to discuss this. That being said, I'd like to give my thoughts on a few things:

How am I not supposed to take that as combative? Presented with an opportunity to educate you instead choose to ridicule.
This I don't understand. What exactly is combative or ridiculing? All I see is praise for a well formulated and thought-out post. If anything Gareth is just thinking aloud in that last part.

And this is why I just plain don't go near this particular Sacred Cow with a ten foot pole. It seems next to impossible to educate yourself on the issue without being demonized for not being already educated on the issue. I get that it's a touchy subject, but man am I ever tired of the combative, "more enemies prove my cause is righteous" attitude. Nobody ever taught me about this shit in my sheltered little life, and I'm supportive of whatever increases general happiness in the world. But try to ask a couple unintentionally awkward questions to gain a better understanding and you get labeled all sorts of nasty adjectives and nouns.
Again, what is combative? Who have labelled you? I honestly don't see where this is coming from.
Furthermore, if you know it's a touchy subject, treat it as such. 'Cuz right now you come off as attacking, and when that happpens people counter attack.


To get back to the comic itself, obligatory squee. I am eagerly awaiting what happens next. The talk on today's page sweetens yesterday's kiss even more. Claire is precious and I want her to be happy.

Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. Including Gareth. Making a part of your post moot.
Well then.
Eh, I'll leave it as is. It was only my interpretation anyway.
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DSL

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Can we go back to discussing pancakes?

Yes!  I've had enough of this waffling.
Indeed--it's starting to give me the crepes.

Just waiting for an opportunity to jump in with a French Toast joke. Also, trying to think of a French Toast joke.
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aphanisis81

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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man? It would paint Marten in a new way because there was no pretext of him swinging that way or is it that Marten has gotten past all of that and is only looking at the person underneath?? Or is it that he thinks he can do that but will  find out that it just doesn't work on that level for him? Or is she biologically a girl.... but doesn't act on her gender....

Welcome, new person!

If you research the matter further, you'll find the term "biologically a man/a woman" fails to properly describe the situation in any case. After all, what are we but biology, no matter our bodies?

So Claire is a woman, because she identifies as a woman.


If you intended it as a question about her genitalia: please don't discuss that. In the manner such discussions tend to go, they very quickly become disrespectful to real people, of which we have a-plenty on this board. Imho not discussing people's genitalia without their consent is basic human decency.

I can't get a fictitious person's consent. My only reason for asking the question is because I want to get into Marten's headspace. Genitalia exist, it's part of being human. Some humans like one set, some the other, and some both. To my knowledge Marten has never expressed any interest in people with male genitalia. It seems out of character to suddenly jump into relationship with a transgender person because we have no previous examples of him expressing interest in the male sex. My inquiry stems from the thought if this is something Marten has considered fully. I can't judge if Marten thinks he is being bold and assertive and fooling himself that he can do this or if he is genuinely attracted to Claire both physically and emotionally. I guess that is yet to be decided but not knowing left me scratching my head. I'm not looking to discuss this any further as I am already ranting a bit but I don't believe in ignoring one aspect of a person because it leaves me lacking understanding of them as a whole especially when it is something they might be uncomfortable with because then I can understand  at least from an external view point what difficulties they may face.

I barked up this tree for two weeks worth of strip posts before being the impetus for the creation of a thread devoted solely to it, which in turn was also locked down.

And while I still understand and see the motivation for your questions, and it doesn't sound like you mean any harm, I sort of came to realize that my line of questioning was a) Not okay and b) Not really as complex as I thought it was. Today's strip seems to be a pretty definitive statement on Marten's position on the matter anyhow.

Also, the phrase Claire's Downstairs, as phrased by a mod eariler, while a verboten topic, is wonderfully fun in its rhymingness.
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BenRG

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And while I still understand and see the motivation for your questions, and it doesn't sound like you mean any harm, I sort of came to realize that my line of questioning was a) Not okay and b) Not really as complex as I thought it was. Today's strip seems to be a pretty definitive statement on Marten's position on the matter anyhow.

This.

During my term lurking before registering here, it became abundantly clear to me that certain subjects are not permitted to be discussed, not due to any official site policy but just because they are emotive and will derail the thread (as well as create virulent inter-user enmities that can only poison the community). That's why I try to limit my discussion of these matters on this board just to keep the community as a friendly place.
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Welcome, Forgotten Felix (for clarity's sake we'll have to call you Felix II: Electric Boogaloo), and thank you for wanting to understand it all!


I haven't posted anything on the WCDTs about this, usually because there's been 15 responses every minute and it's getting impossible to keep track of what's going on.

But I'm going to say this. I identify as a (mostly)straight cisgendered male, and right now I am dating someone who is trans. Their genitalia doesn't matter to me. The fact that they're trans doesn't matter to me. They are a person. I am attracted to them as a person (And a fucking awesome one at that.) This is the same as what Marten is feeling right now.
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aphanisis81

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And while I still understand and see the motivation for your questions, and it doesn't sound like you mean any harm, I sort of came to realize that my line of questioning was a) Not okay and b) Not really as complex as I thought it was. Today's strip seems to be a pretty definitive statement on Marten's position on the matter anyhow.

This.

During my term lurking before registering here, it became abundantly clear to me that certain subjects are not permitted to be discussed, not due to any official site policy but just because they are emotive and will derail the thread (as well as create virulent inter-user enmities that can only poison the community). That's why I try to limit my discussion of these matters on this board just to keep the community as a friendly place.

I can't tell you how long I've wanted someone to respond to a short, snappy post of mine with "This." It feels good. And it says something about the power of our evolving language that a single-word sentence, a mere pronoun, can be such high praise. Thanks, BenRG :)
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TomOBedlam

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They are a person. I am attracted to them as a person

Very, very well said.  This is all that should ever matter.
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Zebediah

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Cut to next morning and Marten, Hannelore and Claire are bailing them out. They look pretty worse for the wear; Mrs A has a piercing that she doesn't remember having before and Beatrice is sure that she didn't have a "My Daughter is a Metal Goddess" tattoo on the small of her back before. Jimbo is in the next-door lock-up and tells Marten that he thinks he is in love.

With all three of them.
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Somnus Eternus

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Gods, I hope that for a week, starting with the next week, we get wacky robot fun or at least just CoD drama just so things settle a bit.

Why am I having flashbacks to much earlier in Sept 1993 than the 7708th?

Now that you've said that, next week will be Angus Returns. :|
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Technetium

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But I'm going to say this. I identify as a (mostly)straight cisgendered male, and right now I am dating someone who is trans. Their genitalia doesn't matter to me. The fact that they're trans doesn't matter to me. They are a person. I am attracted to them as a person (And a fucking awesome one at that.) This is the same as what Marten is feeling right now.
We don't actually know that. We know what Marten has told Claire, but we know almost nothing about his personal reasoning. As someone has said before, it's possible that Marten really likes Claire's personality and has tried to convince himself that he is above caring about what's below, when it might actually end up being something he won't be able to get past. I see most of the questioning about Claire's junk as having less to do with Claire than it has to do with understanding Marten's motivations. I can understand how discussing her junk is offensive to the trans community, but discussing a character's motivations shouldn't be off-limits, and I don't really see how we can discuss Marten's motivations without discussing how he feels about the dreaded subject. It's not a question about what Claire has, but about what Marten feels about what Claire has.

That said, I don't really care about this discussion much and actually want to talk about another elephant in the room. I don't think it's been definitively stated anywhere in the comic, but uh... how old is Claire and how old is Marten? I've always interpreted Claire as being an actual intern at a college. I had previously assumed she was around 19 or so, and seeing that she's living with her mom and her mom is making her breakfast (and usually does so apparently) seems to reinforce that. Marten, on the other hand, I've always seen as being closing in on 30. I don't get the impression that being in school is a recent memory for him. Obviously the relationship is not illegal, and I'm not even suggesting it's always morally wrong for two people with that kind of age difference to have a relationship, but if you look at the last comic with the pretense that the age difference exists (if it does), it does look a little bit more creepy, kind of like the older guy coaxing the younger girl into being okay with the relationship. Claire also strikes me as the sort of person who is "young for her age". She has about as much experience with relationships as most girls just entering high school (maybe less, even).
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hedgie

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Claire is canonically 24.  She could just be living at home to save money, since graduate studies can be rather expensive.
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Okay, it's kind of killing me. Is Claire biologically a man?
Well, if you check her DNA, yes. She also had an operation to transform her penis into a vagina, she cant have babies, and she had to take hormones to make, for example, her breasts grow. In reality also her voice would be male-ish, and the chance that she's a lesbian would be very high (basically reverse chances than for ordinary people).

Ok, time for some remedial Trans 101 stuff, just to make the mods' lives easier if nothing else. There's a couple of things not quite correct here.

Q:"Is Claire biologically a man"?

Answer the first: Er - do you need glasses? Obviously she isn't.
Answer the second: She identifies as a woman. As do I. So no.
Answer the third: No, and she never has been, not since before birth, and I mean that in a strictly anatomical sense.

See for example:
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
    Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

We've known that trans women aren't "biologically male" for nearly two freaking decades. Yet somehow the word hasn't gotten out, and questions like "is she biologically a man" keep on being asked in all sincerity, despite the evidence of people's own eyes even if they don't know the science.


If you "check her DNA" - assuming she hasn't had a bone marrow transplant - then she's likely as female as this mother and her daughter:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
    A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

Of course she may have 46,XX chromosomes, just as it's likely Marigold, Hanners, Tai etc do. Likely, but not certain. Or 47,XXY, or a mix of 45,X and 46,XY (which can cause a natural sex change) or... let's just say that chromosomes aren't an infallible guide.

If she has had a bone marrow transplant, then the majority of her body is composed of cells genetically identical to the donor by now. So anything goes.


She also had an operation to transform her penis into a vagina - Er.. how do you know? She may well have. But she might not. You might find this difficult to believe, but a lot of people get pretty anxious at the thought of major or even minor surgery on their genitalia. Really they do.

A lot of Intersex people in particular are quite happy with what they have, even if that matches neither a male nor female pattern very well. I was a lot happier having genital reconstruction to a female norm, but not all other Intersex people are like me. Same with Trans people. Some can't stand having genitalia they feel is just plain wrong (as I did), while others don't feel any such wrongness at all. To explain why, I'd have to talk about the feminisation or lack thereof of the Superior Parietal Lobule (SPL), and consequent effect on the body map, but I'll spare you the lecture on neuro-physiology.

Let's just say that the exact configuration of anyone's genitalia - Marten's, Tai's, Sven's, Marigold's, Claire's, Veronica's, is an intensely personal and private matter. One really distressing for some people to talk about. So please heed the mods and let the subject drop on this public forum. PM me if you want medical data.


she cant have babies - almost certainly correct (for now). I know of very few exceptions - women labelled "trans" who were actually Intersex. This will likely change before she reaches her Mom's age.


she had to take hormones to make, for example, her breasts grow. While that's a pretty safe assumption, as we know she's on HRT (hormone replacement therapy), it's not certain either. I'm on HRT, rather more of it than Trans women (even though I transitioned like Claire did), but the breast growth pre-dated that. Just as it does for most women hitting puberty. Mine just came 30 years late.


In reality also her voice would be male-ish - given the timing of when she started HRT, not necessarily. But she likely sounds more like Lauren Bachall than Cyndi Loper. Or maybe not. I went to a speech therapist during transition, after 46 years of presenting as male, and she could do nothing for me. My voice is just outside the "ambiguous" range, into the lower female band. I forgot a 30 year habit of lowering my voice you see, I couldn't do it even though I tried. Probably a psychological block.


the chance that she's a lesbian would be very high - for early transitioners like her, no, about the same for most women her age, but for late ones like me, yes. Especially since I have CAH - women with that Intersex condition do indeed have the probabilities reversed. Except I'm straight. So's Claire. Statistics are just that - statistics. You have to treat individuals as individuals.

I'd still give you a passing grade on this. You may have the details wrong, but you at least have a grasp of the issues. That puts you in the top 20%. The bar's just set very low.

I apologise if I come off all pedagogical and arrogant here. It's just that in US parlance, I *am* a college professor, and do remedial teaching to 3rd year medical and psych students in this area, even though I usually teach safety-critical engineering as a regular gig.
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TomOBedlam

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I think she said she was 24 in one of the earlier strips, so its not creepy in that way at all.  Of course, you may have just insulted everyone with a partner who is significantly older or younger than they are.  I've been in that ship (in both directions) a few times in my life ;-)
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BenRG

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Cut to next morning and Marten, Hannelore and Claire are bailing them out. They look pretty worse for the wear; Mrs A has a piercing that she doesn't remember having before and Beatrice is sure that she didn't have a "My Daughter is a Metal Goddess" tattoo on the small of her back before. Jimbo is in the next-door lock-up and tells Marten that he thinks he is in love.

With all three of them.

Precisely. I've suddenly got a mental image of Beatrice looking at Jimbo speculatively and mentions that she's looking for a new gardener. Hannelore shouts: "Mother! No!" and drags her off.

Six months later, Jimbo's new book is a lesbian erotica work called "The Three Vixens" and the characters are disturbingly similar to Veronica, Beatrice and Mrs A (who I'm starting to think of as 'Clarice' for some reason).

I think she said she was 24 in one of the earlier strips, so its not creepy in that way at all.  Of course, you may have just insulted everyone with a partner who is significantly older or younger than they are.  I've been in that ship (in both directions) a few times in my life ;-)

On the subject, do we have a canon age for Marten? My head-canon has always been something about this:
  • Dora is the oldest regular - No older than early 30s; probably 29-31;
  • Marten, Faye, Angus & Hannelore - 25-29 range;
  • Everyone else is in roughly the Augustus kids' age range - 21 at the youngest to 25 at the oldest;
  • Sam holds the record at the moment as the youngest biological character at 13;
  • We know that Jim, Veronica and Henry are all in their mid-50s (Veronica being explicity stated to be 56, IIRC).
« Last Edit: 08 Oct 2014, 05:11 by BenRG »
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TomOBedlam

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Precisely. I've suddenly got a mental image of Beatrice looking at Jimbo speculatively and mentions that she's looking for a new gardener. Hannelore shouts: "Mother! No!" and drags her off.

Six months later, Jimbo's new book is a lesbian erotica work called "The Three Vixens" and the characters are disturbingly similar to Veronica, Beatrice and Mrs A (who I'm starting to think of as 'Clarice' for some reason).

I, for one, am going to be damned bloody disappointed if this doesn't happen  :-D
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Omio

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...I'm sorry, guys, but the thread's getting too long for me to read.

I think it's more-or-less official that the Martenclaire ship has taken off. Now to see where its first destination is. :3
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...Trying to meta on Tetris is impossible, I swear.

TomOBedlam

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I can understand how discussing her junk is offensive to the trans community, but discussing a character's motivations shouldn't be off-limits, and I don't really see how we can discuss Marten's motivations without discussing how he feels about the dreaded subject.

There is always the option of not discussing it and just waiting to see how their relationship evolves over weeks/months/years - and this option won't cause distress to anyone on this forum. 
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BenRG

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Here's a funny use for the age difference possibility. It could fit into a single strip, I think. Gabby and Emily pull Claire's leg about 'dating an older man'. Claire snarks back that maybe they're jealous. Tai interjects that they should be - dating an older person means that you enjoy their greater experience (and her smirk makes it very clear what kind of 'experience' she means - Claire blushes as red as you can get). Gabby waves it off, saying that they were just kidding around. Then she and Emily walk off. Gabby's thinking: "Lucky bitch!" and Emily is thinking: "Kitty-cat GIFs!"
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No_Dragons_Here

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This forum has gone into really weird places since I left last night.

I will say that while I don't really like the Marten-Claire dynamic, I don't need to, because life works like that.  I do have to give props to Marten for his role in all this.

It's a weird feeling.  I think the reason that I don't care for these last few Marten-Claire comics is that I don't feel the chemisartry.  The comics themselves are paced and set up according to the "dramatic moment" or "romantic get together" sort of timing.  Being as I don't really feel invested in their relationship already, it doens't really induce me to being so, and thus it feels kind of weird to read and I don't feel any "Squee" moments.

On the other hand, I really appreciate where Marten is coming from here. I discovered recently that a girl whom I have been steadily approaching the "guy-friend and lady-friend" status with has some medical issues that could completely derail what I thought my life's plan was going to be if we get together and stay together.  As I was discovering this, I came to the realization that I couldn't worry about it and could only take the relationship one step at a time, because I think I love her (and I think she thinks that she loves me too).

I think Marten's in a similar boat.  He knows Claire's secret.  It's likely not something he ever really considered to be part of his future, dating somebody with her circumstances.  Heck, a lot of guys would stay really far away if they knew that particular secret.  On the other hand, he knows he likes her, and that she likes him.  They can work the details out step by step.

Love doesn't need to be complicated.  That's what I appreciate here. 

*I'm calling it "Claire's Secret" because of an old "Victoria's Secret" joke I remember from elementary school, which is a very crude and insensitive joke that I'm not going to repeat here.
 
**Actually, that's a lie I told because I remembered the joke.  I'm calling it "Claire's Secret" because I'm sick of all of the crazy interweb drama regarding terminology.  Marten has already explained his stance on it, which is a stance I'm familiar with, which generally amounts to "cross that bridge when we get there" if I understand correctly.  ((ie: we don't need to discuss Claire's Pants in order to discuss Martin's motivations.  He's already explained them.))
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TieDyeKat

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I brought her my old B&W TV, which I never watched anyway.  I visited daily to make sure she was alright.  A few days later, I brought over some laundry - she had a washer/dryer, and I really didn't want to go to the laundromat. 

She made me spaghetti. 

My laundry basket never made it back to my house.  It just... felt right.  It was sudden, and surprising to both of us.  I let my lease go, and moved in. 

Two years later, we were married.  That was in 1986.  We've had issues, and ups and downs.  But we're still best friends.
Squee!
Pancakes...spaghetti... same diff.

(My AoA is from AS XVII BTW...)


Dang... I only started in AS XXVI.
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Please, sir, may I have some more?
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