Topic: Alice Grove MCDT - January 2015 (Read 119029 times)

Method of Madness · « **Reply #250 on:** 27 Jan 2015, 16:41 »

I only learned pronunciation 1, which I also learned in school.

Zebediah · « **Reply #251 on:** 27 Jan 2015, 17:32 »

I imagine that the Praeses would prefer to use classical Latin pronunciation. Church Latin, as the name suggests, is used almost exclusively by the Catholic Church, so unless the orbital colonies were established by the Vatican I doubt they use Church Latin pronunciation.

ysth · « **Reply #252 on:** 27 Jan 2015, 18:09 »

Quote from: Kugai on 26 Jan 2015, 20:33

She forgot to say Energise.

No, she forgot to say "Simon says".

jwhouk · « **Reply #253 on:** 27 Jan 2015, 19:18 »

Fides = "Faith". "Fidum" is the object form (in Latin).

Scio = "to know". Scit = the 2nd person form of "Know", meaning "He knows".

Pronunciation in Catholic Latin makes the "sc" sound into "sch", where the "c" is mostly silent.

So... speak the sentence out...

Schwungrad · « **Reply #254 on:** 27 Jan 2015, 20:00 »

Seems they've been exiled. Now's the question: Is it as a punishment for their transgressions down on earth or is it for some other reason and allowing Ardent to "trick" the system and sending Gavia after him was just a plot to get rid of them?

Loki · « **Reply #255 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 00:07 »

My suspicion is either one of those of Ben or that the Deities responsible are tied up in some conflict which demands their full attention. We may well be looking at the two sole survivors of their world here.

retrosteve · « **Reply #256 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 13:57 »

Am I the only one wondering what's happened to Jack? Alice asked him to come along.

jwhouk · « **Reply #257 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 14:26 »

Quote from: retrosteve on 28 Jan 2015, 13:57

Am I the only one wondering what's happened to Jack? Alice asked him to come along.

At the beginning of this day, she was trying to fix the wind tower, so maybe she asked him to grab the wrench she left at the site?

Method of Madness · « **Reply #258 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 17:55 »

For whatever reason Cupcake* doesn't want them back or maybe is just away from the controls.

*Yeah that's what I'm gonna call it from now on.

Zebediah · « **Reply #259 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 18:58 »

SubaruStephen · « **Reply #260 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 20:18 »

Quote from: jwhouk on 27 Jan 2015, 19:18

Fides = "Faith". "Fidum" is the object form (in Latin).

Scio = "to know". Scit = the 2nd person form of "Know", meaning "He knows".

Pronunciation in Catholic Latin makes the "sc" sound into "sch", where the "c" is mostly silent.

So... speak the sentence out...

The only Latin you need to ever know:

Method of Madness · « **Reply #261 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 20:28 »

I had already taken enough Latin when I first saw it to see it was wrong and be annoyed...the annoyance subsided quickly ^_^ I was in high school Latin I and I felt proud for understanding all that

NOW DON'T DO IT AGAIN!

Kugai · « **Reply #262 on:** 28 Jan 2015, 21:52 »

HAIL CAESAR!

cesium133 · « **Reply #263 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 14:52 »

Quote from: Kugai on 28 Jan 2015, 21:52

HAIL CAESAR!

Is that what happens when you put ice cubes in a salad?

Loki · « **Reply #264 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 15:43 »

Fun fact, the salad never actually invented Caesar.

jwhouk · « **Reply #265 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 20:31 »

Comic!

And we're at the end of chapter one.

Ardent and Gavia are trapped in Alice's Grove.

mikmaxs · « **Reply #266 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 20:40 »

Oh no! They're trapped! If only I knew what this meant, empathized with these characters, or had some semblance of grounding to understand why I should care...

Also, I wonder... It says 'End of chapter one'. Does this mean this was supposed to be the equivalent of a single chapter of a book or whatever, or does it just mean that it's a break point in the story and there's about to be a time-skip or something?

Wildroses · « **Reply #267 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 22:22 »

Quote from: mikmaxs on 29 Jan 2015, 20:40

Oh no! They're trapped! If only I knew what this meant, empathized with these characters, or had some semblance of grounding to understand why I should care...

I'll tell you why you should care, it's the same reason Alice cares. It's because she and everyone else on that unfortunate world is stuck with the little horrors until their Praeses decide to take them back! I bet Alice off screen was hoping Gavia would succeed so she could go back to taking care of her town and not dealing with Ardent hitting on every female in sight and Gavia who thinks explosions are a great way to solve problems.

Though for my harsh words, I do think that we aren't supposed to like Gavia and Ardent yet. I think that is due to happen later, after they go through some steep learning curves and period of adjustment. We could potentially have a chapter two of Gavia and Ardent struggling to adjust to primitive life, but I think it equally likely Alice is going to instantly start pulling every string she has and every trick she knows in trying to get the little horrors back where they belong, i.e. not with her.

Kugai · « **Reply #268 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 22:30 »

Cue freakout by Gavia in 3 .... 2 .... 1

*Fade to black*

Titles over with dramatic music

TO BE CONTINUED...

ysth · « **Reply #269 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 22:48 »

Quote from: jwhouk on 29 Jan 2015, 20:31

Ardent and Gavia are trapped in Alice's Grove.

No, it seems the Praeseses are the Grove, and the Vicissitudes are trapped out of it.

ReindeerFlotilla · « **Reply #270 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 23:26 »

I don't find myself agreeing with mikmaxs often, but I don't care. We've got a solid question hook: what is Alice? Solid story hooks: What is this place and where did these two kids come from? But no personal hooks. Alice is a cipher and I don't have any motivation to find out why.

As comics go, I'd have skipped out on this one, except inertia. There's a link to it on the boards, so I keep checking.

It's not hate. I don't find any other characters objectionable. Jeph's given me no reason to dislike them. But he's given me no reason to care about them either.

BenRG · « **Reply #271 on:** 29 Jan 2015, 23:33 »

Called it!

About the chapter thing, I mean. I'm pretty sure that this would be the end of the first issue of a serial-released graphic novel. I wonder if Jeph has any idea of what issue 1's cover art would look like? Probably like that one bit of fan-art with dungeree-clad Alice in a dramatic pose on a hill with the town and wind turbine in the background.

I don't think anyone here doesn't believe that Ardent and Gavia have been deliberately marooned. The unanswered question is: Why?

I'm sticking with my earlier chapter 2 prediction: Alice begins her investigation whilst the kids tell Jack their back-story. All liberally sprinkled with fish-out-of-water/culture shock jokes.

@Reindeer,

I'm drawn back by the potential and the desire to find the answers to those many questions. As for the characters? They're just the means to tell the story.

mikmaxs · « **Reply #272 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 00:00 »

Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 29 Jan 2015, 23:26

I don't find myself agreeing with mikmaxs often, but I don't care.

I have to say, this comment took me off guard. Not that you tend to disagree with me, I can often be stubborn, have strong opinions, and am bad at filtering and clarifying what I'm trying to say.

I mostly just now realized that I've actually posted enough to have a presence on this forum other than just an anonymous voice. After years of lurking, it's an odd feeling.

@WildRoses, I can't say that I care if this town is stuck with those little horrors, though, because I don't know anyone well enough to care about them except maybe Alice, and even Alice is too much of an enigma for me to care about her as a person. The only townsperson I know is Jack, and he doesn't seem to mind.

ReindeerFlotilla · « **Reply #273 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 00:19 »

I don't find you disagreeable, either. We're just often on different pages. No offense intended. I could have phrased it better. Sorry.

TinPenguin · « **Reply #274 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 00:24 »

So, why are all the Praeses named after trees? Is it a code name? A manufacturer's brand? Is the Outside ruled by Ents? Are they the Grove, as ysth says? Or is each responsible for their own grove, like Alice? Why are most of them genera, but Cupressaceae is a family? Is Cupressaceae the Praeses of Praeses? Or is that Yggdrasil?

mikmaxs · « **Reply #275 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 00:37 »

Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 30 Jan 2015, 00:19

I don't find you disagreeable, either. We're just often on different pages. No offense intended. I could have phrased it better. Sorry.

None taken, I didn't mean to imply that either. People disagree with people, it's a thing that tends to happen. No apologies necessary.

BenRG · « **Reply #276 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 01:24 »

Quote from: TinPenguin on 30 Jan 2015, 00:24

So, why are all the Praeses named after trees?

It depends. Some ancient, pagan cultures here in Europe believed that trees were aware and the source of wisdom if appropriately propitiated. Given that trees, on average, tend to live a lot longer than humans, it's possible that the Praeses chose tree names for themselves to symbolise their far-greater-than-human longevity (possible functional immortality, if they're AIs) and wisdom.

Gavia's behaviour is interesting if you take the druidism parallel further. If you didn't know that she's trying to contact AIs to request a beam-up, doesn't it read like she's invoking the gods? I think that this gives us a clear insight of the relationship between Praesae and human. It is close to that between god and supplicant or parent and child. Between the provider and the helpless. That is why it makes me think that they've marooned Gavia and Ardent so they have to learn to look after themselves. The Praeses have clearly decided that society will benefit from having a bit more scarcity and appreciation of value rather than the current 'consume on demand' paradigm. They want humans to learn how to survive without the moment-to-moment care and control of the gods.

Who would have thought that Jeph and Gene Roddenberry would have parallels in their writing?

mikmaxs · « **Reply #277 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 01:35 »

Quote

Who would have thought that Jeph and Gene Roddenberry would have parallels in their writing?

Well, QC has had occasional underpinnings of AI Civil Rights, technology advancement and its influence on society, and the geopolitical ramifications of colloqualistic loquacity in verbage, so... He has for a while, really.

FunkyTuba · « **Reply #278 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 01:45 »

"Alice" must be short for some other tree genus or family or something.

pwhodges · « **Reply #279 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 01:53 »

Do we know which sibling is younger? Ardent certainly seems to know what's going on better than Gavia, even though he started off as ditzy.

plusorminus · « **Reply #280 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 04:44 »

I'm a bit confused by Jeph's note at the end of today's strip. Obviously every process is different, but AG seems to be a story where plotting is key and that he needs time to plan out what's next seems a bit odd to me, especially since it's the end of this chapter. Sadly, I didn't have the funds to contribute to the Kickstarter when it was going on so I'm not sure if AG was supposed to be a "Welp, I've got this idea and let's see how I sketch out the beginning and if it seems to catch on, I'll try to figure out the rest."

If it wasn't that way, considering the pacing of this story thus far, I'm a bit concerned. A gag-a-day strip has its inherent difficulties, but it isn't dependent on plot, per se. Something like this, however, needs a definite roadmap. I'm getting weird flashbacks to T Campbell's QUILTBAG and his shuttering it because he simply didn't have a roadmap, flailed around a bit and then decided he'd written himself into a corner.

I'm intrigued by what's going on, but I don't want to have a sense that there's no plan in place to advance the story.

pwhodges · « **Reply #281 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 04:50 »

Well, it's possible to have a good idea of where you want to go without knowing in detail how you're going to get there. Or it may just be a need to work out the pacing a bit more and planning the upcoming strips accordingly. We'll see, I guess.

Zebediah · « **Reply #282 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 05:16 »

Few stories spring to life fully formed from the head of the author. They take work. Jeph's going to take a few days to do some of that work. While I have no doubt he knows exactly where the story ends up, some of the details of the route need to be worked out as he goes.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #283 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 05:28 »

Quote from: Zebediah on 30 Jan 2015, 05:16

Few stories spring to life fully formed from the head of the author

We call those Athenas.

DillyDolly · « **Reply #284 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 06:18 »

Quote from: pwhodges on 30 Jan 2015, 01:53

Do we know which sibling is younger? Ardent certainly seems to know what's going on better than Gavia, even though he started off as ditzy.

Gavia seems a lot shorter than Ardent—and not in a naturally short kind of way. I think she is the younger sibling.

Really loving the story. Going to be hard seeing it go on break at such a cliffhanger, but looking forward to see what happens next.

plusorminus · « **Reply #285 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 06:19 »

Ah, okay. That makes sense. I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that AG was a story Jeph had been wanting to tell for awhile but could not because QC is his main source of income and therefore had to be the priority. Yes, I think that it's very true that no story springs fully formed. I was just confused because AG is such a plot-driven webcomic. I feel much better now, thanks for the additional information.

Isyrion · « **Reply #286 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 09:22 »

I think what we have here is the general framework for the story. For example, Gavia and Ardent's characters have board traits right now (IE the foundation) and Alice has been slightly fleshed out (Foundation and Framework) but has also been established in board strokes. I think we will see some slow character development in the next chapter or two. Jeph did something similar with QC after all, Marten, Faye and Pintsize were established in board strokes then refined through solid story telling.

While not WOWed by Alice Grove I see potential here and willing to give it the time it needs to become great. Well there are my two cents.

On an unrelated note my computer refuses to let me spell Jeph's name right it keeps making it Jeff.....grrrrrr.

Skewbrow · « **Reply #287 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 11:53 »

Quote from: mikmaxs on 29 Jan 2015, 20:40

... there's about to be a time-skip or something?

I am expecting a time-skip, too. Forward or backward?

ReindeerFlotilla · « **Reply #288 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 12:09 »

Actually...

QC was unlike AG. We meet Marten and right off we are offered a reason to care about him. He's unhappy. He's unhappy about things a lot of people can relate to. In speech and inner dialogue, we are introduced to the inner life of Marten Reed. We don't know who he is, exactly. On the other hand, he isn't a cipher, either. What he does, and why, is explicable by his previous actions.

Faye IS a cipher, but that's okay because we have a viewpoint character, and we've been offered multiple opportunities to care about him. At strip 22, the situation is clearly introduced. The question isn't "What's going on here?" It's "where's this going to go?" About 480 strips later, we find out.

I'm not dumping on AG. I'm simply saying that nearly 40 strips in and I still don't have a sense of connection to the main character. The ONLY character who seems to want something they don't already have is Ardent. And he's self-centered in an unsympathetic way. You get the sense that he has enough toys. Sure, Marten was the woobie in his intro, but it was an effective hook.

That's what I mean about the current state of AG. It's like reading the first chapter of a book and realizing that author expects you to read chapter two because of whose name is on the dust jacket, rather than for the content.

Part of me is desperate to tell the other half. It's not exactly easy to build a strong hook. Connecting the reader to the character isn't a trivial thing. but this is getting long. Suffice it to say, I understand the challenges. I'm just saying AG hasn't met them. A for effort, though.

ysth · « **Reply #289 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 12:14 »

I'm pretty sure the plural is Praeseses.

Quote from: BenRG on 29 Jan 2015, 23:33

I don't think anyone here doesn't believe that Ardent and Gavia have been deliberately marooned. The unanswered question is: Why?

And by whom. I don't think we have sufficient evidence there.

Quote from: TinPenguin on 30 Jan 2015, 00:24

Why are most of them genera, but Cupressaceae is a family? Is Cupressaceae the Praeses of Praeses?

If so, that could be one reason they are such special snowflakes.

Quote from: plusorminus on 30 Jan 2015, 04:44

I'm not sure if AG was supposed to be a "Welp, I've got this idea and let's see how I sketch out the beginning and if it seems to catch on, I'll try to figure out the rest."

He didn't say "rest", he said "next"; important distinction there.

Quote from: Isyrion on 30 Jan 2015, 09:22

While not WOWed by Alice Grove I see potential here and willing to give it the time it needs to become great. Well there are my two cents.

I'm enjoying it quite a lot, and getting very attached to Alice. I like her sense of humor.

I think having a different style of comic will stretch Jeph in ways that will pay off handsomely in QC too.

plusorminus · « **Reply #290 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 13:22 »

Quote from: ysth on 30 Jan 2015, 12:14

He didn't say "rest", he said "next"; important distinction there.

Not to be an ass, but isn't this a distinction without a difference? It would be a bit different if this were the 50th or even 5th chapter of this tale. It's the first. So "next" sort of does equal "rest" from where I'm standing.

It doesn't matter though. I was mistaken because I thought AG was a project Jeph had on his mind but had to mind the QC store and held the Kickstarter so he could get some funding to branch out. That was not the case. So it makes sense to me now that he has an idea of where he wants things to go but only detailed the first chapter and is now assessing/reassessing things.

Ben Ellery · « **Reply #291 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 15:13 »

Quote from: ysth on 30 Jan 2015, 12:14

I'm pretty sure the plural is Praeseses.

Actually, the plural of Praeses is Praesides.

See either http://alicegrove.wikia.com/wiki/Praeses or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praeses for more info.

ReindeerFlotilla · « **Reply #292 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 16:48 »

Quote from: Ben Ellery on 30 Jan 2015, 15:13

Quote from: ysth on 30 Jan 2015, 12:14
I'm pretty sure the plural is Praeseses.

Actually, the plural of Praeses is Praesides.

See either http://alicegrove.wikia.com/wiki/Praeses or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praeses for more info.

This is either the most awesome, or most pedantic first post I've ever seen, anywhere. There aren't enough hearts or emojis in the world to express how much I love it.

A+ Ben Ellery. A+.

Orkboy · « **Reply #293 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 17:58 »

Okay, so, my 2 cents on chapter one.

It took a while to get rolling. That's not at all unusual, but it is different than QC, which definitely sunk its hooks in with the first page. AG had a few early hooks to keep you reading to the end of the chapter, such as "how did she survive that fall" and "what's with the half-naked blue kid sleeping in a field?" but the real hook seems to be the last page of the chapter. Most authors/cartoonists wouldn't be able to get away with a delayed hook like that, but Jeph's almost fanatical QC followers have been shown already that Jeph is the bomb, and I think he knew that we'd all hang around long enough for this story to build up steam and stand on its own feet. I know, I mixed two different metaphors there, but they just makes AG into some kind of steam-powered mechanical juggernaut, which is almost as cool as the stuff Jeph writes.

Ben Ellery · « **Reply #294 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 18:15 »

Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 30 Jan 2015, 16:48

Quote from: Ben Ellery on 30 Jan 2015, 15:13
Quote from: ysth on 30 Jan 2015, 12:14
I'm pretty sure the plural is Praeseses.

Actually, the plural of Praeses is Praesides.

See either http://alicegrove.wikia.com/wiki/Praeses or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praeses for more info.

This is either the most awesome, or most pedantic first post I've ever seen, anywhere. There aren't enough hearts or emojis in the world to express how much I love it.

A+ Ben Ellery. A+.

I've actually been lurking around for about 2 weeks now. And I'd planned for my first post to be something more productive, I swear. But then I saw this, and I just couldn't resist. Oh well.

Wildroses · « **Reply #295 on:** 30 Jan 2015, 19:01 »

I think it is better if you eliminate all thoughts of QC from your mind as you read AG, although that might be harder for some people than it is for others. I imagine practically everyone who reads it (including me) started doing so because it is done by the same guy who did QC. So the danger of expecting something exactly like QC and being displeased because it is not is higher.

I consider QC and AG quite different because of the emphasis. In QC Jeph put a lot of work into the characters. The plot and the world his characters live in are of secondary importance as readers are invested in the characters, and they want to see what happens to the characters and how they react to certain things. So in QC the plot and the world's primary work is to give the characters a place to exist and react.

In AG, we have the reverse. What is important is the plot and the world. The primary work of the characters is not to make readers like them, it to show the readers what sort of world they live in and reveal the plot, and Jeph has chosen to do this by not quite revealing everything so his readers are full of questions. It was effective in my case. I'm not following AG because it was done by the same guy as QC anymore, I'm following it because I want my questions about both societies answered.

And just to be clear, I don't consider characters serving plot or plot serving characters any better than the other. Both are valid, and as all people are different it is possible to prefer one without having bad taste. However, if you are the sort of person who thinks character is more interesting than world building and plot (and there are probably a lot of you because of QC), be aware you will probably never like AG as much as QC. That doesn't make AG bad, just different. Lots of artists want to experiment with different things and don't want to make the same piece of work again and again.

ReindeerFlotilla · « **Reply #296 on:** 01 Feb 2015, 01:50 »

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not comparing AG and QC. The relation I described above was just refulting Isyrion's suggestion that AG and QC started at a similar pace. They did not. There were several character hooks in QC by strip six.

Taking AG as it's own thing, I still find it wanting. Story is character. Character is story. Or more accurately, Plot = Character plus Conflict.

AG is nigh 40 strips in and we don't know much at all about the putative main characters, and have very little feel for why Vicissitude's conflict should matter to us. Not to mention it was just introduced.

I rather expect AG will do just fine, in the long run. Name recognition goes a long way, and there are plenty of other ways to drive new readers to strip (other artists). I'm not prognosticating, I'm not complaining. I'm offering a structural critique.

As a reader, offering no comparison to QC, I don't give a damn about AG's world or characters.

I've been somewhat over focused on the sympathy side. John Grisham knows you don't need sympathy to create an audience hook (I once tried to read everything he'd published, and found that I couldn't deal with any of it, because his characters were too unlikable to root for but not unlikable enough to root against. That said, Grisham was a best selling author and his book were being turned into movies in job lots. So he was doing something right). And, to be fair, AG started off raising decent hooks on the mechanical side.

The issue is what I call The X-Files problem. If you raise interesting questions that are not fundamentally unanswerable, the audience expects answers. In AG's case, the question raised for the starting block is "what is Alice?"

Now, the right thing to do is to string the audience along. Rather than giving them the answers, give them more questions. I call this The X-Files problem, because the was a certain point in the shows run where it became obvious that the writers were never going to answer any of the questions. Like, they didn't have answers. Right around the point, the show's rating declined.

The X-Files went for years, AG has had months. But I don't think I'm premature. X-Files got away with what they did by offering answers to the questions regularly. It just turned out every answer was another set of questions. AG has raised questions but barely touched on them.

I look at it this way: What if this was a comicbook? Given that one of Jeph's pages is about half a comic page, it turns out that the end of Chapter one lines up nicely with where a 22-24 page comic would end.

Would you buy issue two?

I don't know that I would. I don't know I wouldn't, but I do know that if I did, it would because of the author, not the story.

BenRG · « **Reply #297 on:** 01 Feb 2015, 03:02 »

@Reindeer,

Your problem is the 'I am the world" fallacy. Just because you consider those things to be problems does not make that universally true. I, for one, will come back because, with these questions posed, I want to hear the answers and know that they may be many chapters away. To me, this is a feature, not a bug.

Neko_Ali · « **Reply #298 on:** 01 Feb 2015, 08:06 »

I actually find these mysteries that have been put out to be the reason why I want to keep reading. This first chapter was just basic set up, presenting the reader with a world similar to one we are familiar with, then introducing things showing that it's a lot deeper and stranger than we know, starting from the first 'How did she survive that fall' and 'who is this blue monkey kid?' So far we have been introduced to several principle characters, a couple of conflicts and story hooks and a small bit of world building. That is really pretty standard for the first chapter of a story. It only seems long because of the slower update schedule of the comic. If this were a comic book, or a graphic novel or written book, we would be talking first issue or a few dozen pages here. You can't expect a huge amount of characterization and resolutions at the very beginning, though we did have a small three part arc with hook-conflict-resolution between Ardent, Alice and Gavia.

Or to put it shortly, this is just the introduction. I find there are plenty of hooks that have my attention that I want to know more about. It's way to early in the story for us to know everything, or even a lot of things about those characters. The story is being written along the lines of a longer, more episodic format than a web comic 'important stuff/punchline every day' format.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #299 on:** 01 Feb 2015, 08:10 »

Yeah, I also have enjoyed it so far, quite a bit.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Poll

The Fate of ArdentSis

Author Topic: Alice Grove MCDT - January 2015 (Read 119029 times)