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Faypocalypse Sven

9 (6.9%)

Claireten Snuggles

12 (9.2%)

Clintonhand Naughtyness

3 (2.3%)

Dora fires Faye - Drama and drunkenness ensues

50 (38.2%)

Clairemom and Martenmom accidentally meet

4 (3.1%)

Emily gets weirder (is that even possible?)

4 (3.1%)

Sven rescues Faye - Dora gets wrong end of stick

12 (9.2%)

The surprise return on Angus - Blood and mayhem ensue

5 (3.8%)

Purple Monkey Dishwasher

7 (5.3%)

Whatever it is, it'll be completely unexpected

22 (16.8%)

ALIENS!

3 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 123

[Emperor Norton]

Probably would have been a better idea to put her in a sweater vest so she would be more recognizable .

[Method of Madness]

Maybe it's the style, but she looks exactly like Cosette. Like...uncannily.

[SubaruStephen]

Except Cosette is a brunette.

[Method of Madness]

For now.

[cesium133]

The image is in the "random" directory (random/joycemarten.png), so it won't show up in the archives.

[Method of Madness]

(click to show/hide)

Well, now we can always find it easily.

[LeeC]

hahah yay Joyce cameo!

[Method of Madness]

Maybe because the shape of the hair is just...different. Different styles, I get it, but still. I never would've realized it was Joyce if I wasn't told (or if I'd bothered to read the news post today )

[Penquin47]

I thought that was Cosette too!  Sure, Cosette currently has her hair dyed darker, but... it looks JUST LIKE HER other than that.

[Zebediah]

Hey, come on, Jeph's been on a plane all day. So what if he just slapped a new head on Cosette's body and called it Joyce? The guy's tired.

[Method of Madness]

Ha, it's the head that looks like Cosette.

[Neko_Ali]

Most states in the US have an At-Will employment policy, I believe. Unless it is a union job, but certain sectors are doing their best to break the unions because with at-will employment all of the power basically lies with the employer. No, it isn't a good way to do things. But the US has been steadily destroying it's middle and lower classes for years.

In any case, a sit down meeting and official termination could happen at a later date, with paperwork and everything. Faye being drunk and Dora being angry means now is not the time for that kind of conversation. And the fact that this is a comic means those details will be glossed over anyway, unless something important happens during the conversation. But yeah.. being sent home immediately when found drinking on the job is pretty standard fare, at least in the US.

[SomeCanadianWeirdo]

Regarding Dora's issues, one that may be lurking in the background is her bisexuality.  No matter how supportive her parents might have been, or the other people in her life, there's a very good chance Dora has faced prejudice about it at some point.  Especially if she came out in high school.  We already know that she wasn't one of the "cool kids," and some people might have been even more inclined to avoid her or mistreat her if they knew she wasn't straight.

As far as Faye getting help goes I'll be the odd man out and predict it will come either from May or Marigold.  Given that she's an outsider May might have a more unbiased perspective than the others.

[Is it cold in here?]

Ais may have a more accurate understanding of humans than humans have of each other.

[Method of Madness]

Almost certainly.

[Zalder]

Regarding Dora's issues, one that may be lurking in the background is her bisexuality.  No matter how supportive her parents might have been, or the other people in her life, there's a very good chance Dora has faced prejudice about it at some point.  Especially if she came out in high school.  We already know that she wasn't one of the "cool kids," and some people might have been even more inclined to avoid her or mistreat her if they knew she wasn't straight.

As far as Faye getting help goes I'll be the odd man out and predict it will come either from May or Marigold.  Given that she's an outsider May might have a more unbiased perspective than the others.

Kind of an interesting theory about Dora.  Maybe she's quick to the draw at breaking friendships, relationships, etc because she's been hurt by people she trusted and confided in.

[sluthy]

Hey, come on, Jeph's been on a plane all day. So what if he just slapped a new head on Cosette's body and called it Joyce? The guy's tired.

He actually drew it seven months ago: http://jephjacques.com/post/87646817720/drawings-from-tonights-patreon-launch-party

He drew a better Joyce shortly beforehand: http://jephjacques.com/post/86250436045/i-drew-a-joyce-while-playing-with-watercolor

And one with Claire and Carla later on: http://jephjacques.com/post/98928768545/i-did-a-drawing

Kind of an interesting theory about Dora.  Maybe she's quick to the draw at breaking friendships, relationships, etc because she's been hurt by people she trusted and confided in.

We know that, that's why she dumped Marten and is (was?) in therapy.Sven pretty much confirmed that it's all from previous abusive relationships. But I doubt that's got anything to do with this. She's just straight up pissed at Faye for, well, being pissed.

[Zalder]

Hey, come on, Jeph's been on a plane all day. So what if he just slapped a new head on Cosette's body and called it Joyce? The guy's tired.

He actually drew it seven months ago: http://jephjacques.com/post/87646817720/drawings-from-tonights-patreon-launch-party

He drew a better Joyce shortly beforehand: http://jephjacques.com/post/86250436045/i-drew-a-joyce-while-playing-with-watercolor

And one with Claire and Carla later on: http://jephjacques.com/post/98928768545/i-did-a-drawing

Kind of an interesting theory about Dora.  Maybe she's quick to the draw at breaking friendships, relationships, etc because she's been hurt by people she trusted and confided in.

We know that, that's why she dumped Marten and is (was?) in therapy.Sven pretty much confirmed that it's all from previous abusive relationships. But I doubt that's got anything to do with this. She's just straight up pissed at Faye for, well, being pissed.

Yeah this was a different thing altogether.  This was anger felt when you feel someone threatening whatever you happen to hold most dear, CoD in Dora's case, which of course is her livelihood and independence.

[DSL]

Hey, come on, Jeph's been on a plane all day. So what if he just slapped a new head on Cosette's body and called it Joyce? The guy's tired.

He actually drew it seven months ago: http://jephjacques.com/post/87646817720/drawings-from-tonights-patreon-launch-party

He drew a better Joyce shortly beforehand: http://jephjacques.com/post/86250436045/i-drew-a-joyce-while-playing-with-watercolor

And one with Claire and Carla later on: http://jephjacques.com/post/98928768545/i-did-a-drawing

Kind of an interesting theory about Dora.  Maybe she's quick to the draw at breaking friendships, relationships, etc because she's been hurt by people she trusted and confided in.

We know that, that's why she dumped Marten and is (was?) in therapy.Sven pretty much confirmed that it's all from previous abusive relationships. But I doubt that's got anything to do with this. She's just straight up pissed at Faye for, well, being pissed.

Yeah this was a different thing altogether.  This was anger felt when you feel someone threatening whatever you happen to hold most dear, CoD in Dora's case, which of course is her livelihood and independence.

Not too different. She trusted Faye (enough to make her assistant manager) and saw a potential betrayal. Chop!

[TRVA123]

I'd say she saw an actual betrayal. I mean, if Faye had any consideration for her friend or her job, she wouldn't have come to work drunk.

But in this case I really don't think Dora's reaction was motivated by any of Doras issues or hangups. Faye fucked up, right after being told not to fuck up in that specific way. Dora did what any responsible employer would do.

[swapna]

I must admit, my first reaction was more or less 'Really? She fires her on the spot? How messed up is that?' I think it was more a reaction to the possibility of being fired like, right now. Not with a week or two having to take her vacation days and THEN be jobless, or be sent home with some variation of 'this is a severe offence, go home now and we will discuss the consequences later'.

As other posters have pointed out, that might be non-US-citizen-sensibilities perking up.

Especially since Faye has been employed for years, even QC-time; she has been made assistant manager, whatever that means at the Coffee of Doom, it meant that she had additional responsibilities. I don't know if she even got a pay raise for that, since it's never been brought up after Angus mentioned it (as far as I remember). She's been in charge of training and hiring new employees, scheduling, even delegating tasks. I understand Dora protecting her business, but she owes Faye. She owes her at least a proper termination of employment (including paying her for unused vacation days), and not that kind of casual dismissal.

I think (hope) that yesterday's comic portrayed it that abrupt for the sake of drama, and Dora still does her duty as responsible (non-vindictive) employer.

[TRVA123]

Faye is being fired for misconduct, or fired "with cause" as opposed to being laid off/let go by a company that is downsizing. As far as I understand if you are fired "with cause" you don't get any severance package, you forfeited it when you broke your employment contract. If you are fired "without cause" the company should include vacation days and other compensation as part of the severance package, as they are the ones breaking the employment contract.

Faye might be eligible for unemployment?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Unemployment depends on the interplay of state and federal rules. Being fired for cause can delay or reduce your unemployment benefit in some states and eliminate it in others. I don't know of any where it doesn't matter, but I guess that's possible.

[Is it cold in here?]

Faye has almost hit bottom before.

[Undrneath]

Faye has broken what could be considered COD's one and only hard rule after being told in no uncertain terms that it was not allowed. In the restaurant in which I work there are several offenses which will lead to instant termination, drinking and doing drugs on the clock being high on the list. I'm theorizing that since not drinking at work has been mentioned several times that something has happened in the past that brought about the policy. Ultimately Dora is responsible both intellectually and financially for everything that happens inside that building and needs to make any decision based on that responsibility.

[Undrneath]

At least in my state if the termination fulfills certain criteria unemployment benefits are denied though I am not sure what those criteria are.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Faye has almost hit bottom before.

No sure if visual pun good or bad.

[BenRG]

You would think that Marten would have learned by now not to mention his mother's career to casual acquaintances. What will make this worse is that Joyce will now nervously ask all these questions about Veronica because, let's face it, most people couldn't help but do so. It's only a matter of time before he snaps and storms off.

This is probably why Marten has only been in a few relationships, despite being a dyed-in-the-wool good-guy.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I don't think I've ever seen Marten actually get upset over having to explain Veronica. It's old and worn terrority that he doesn't care to revisit, but it's not otherwise upsetting to him.

I con only imagine him getting upset if someone got judgmental. That this applies to Joyce is kind of an aside, because I still don't see it happening. Marten gets angry when people are unreasonable with him, or when his boundaries are crossed. Everything else, he tends to tolerate.

[Lubricus]

I love seeing Jeph's take on characters from other webcomics. I wouldn't mind more crossovers!

[BenRG]

I don't think I've ever seen Marten actually get upset over having to explain Veronica.

It's not the explaining that annoys him. It's the fact that Veronica instantly becomes the sole topic of conversation. Girls just find her worryingly fascinating and all they want to talk with him about is his mother!

[phyllis]

Even as a non-US citizen, I wouldn't expect a sit-down meeting to dismiss me if I showed up drunk to a non-professional job. If I was drinking while working on my current job, I would expect to be suspended immediately followed by a formal termination process & loss of my right to practice, but if I'd turned up drunk when I worked at a pizza place as a student, I would have expected to be fired on the spot. When someone sexually harrassed a colleague--the only significant misconduct that I can think of that happened whilst I was there--he was sent home unpaid for the rest of the shift, on the understanding that he would be fired on the spot if it happened again. If it had been a thing that endangered our customers, I'm pretty sure he would have been fired straight away.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Old and worn. He doesn't care to revisit. He doesn't get upset, he doesn't enjoy it. He tolerates it. Still don't seem him storming anywhere.

Has he ever stormed anywhere? I think he might have exited on a cutting remark once, and gone off in exasperation with Veronica once, but those were both boundary related. If you want storming off, you want Dora. She storms off, she storms on. Much of the anti-Dora rage of late is colored by her habit of storming.

Marten simmers.

[hedgie]

I have a friend who has had similar problems to Faye.  He's running out of fingers to count the number of times he's been fired from that coffee shop.  Faye may be able to get her job back, and it may because Dora considers her "family".  Although, given the way she has cut-off Sven, she may stick with it.

[Markus Ramikin]

What I'd really love to see after this is Dora NOT letting either her own stupid brain or anyone else push her into guilt. If she was like "you know what, fuck this, I did the right thing, I refuse to feel bad about it."

That would be refreshing.

And yeah, I also thought of how she cut off Sven, indeed, except in that case I still have no idea what she finds so very toxic about him.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I gotta say, that would be pretty shitty of Dora.

She did the right thing.

And her friend is going to suffer for it.

She should feel bad about it.

At the base of the human condition there is truth, as much as anything can be true, that most people refuse. And the refusal of that truth is the root of most pain, suffering, and conflict inflicted by humans on humans. And that truth is thatlife doesn't come in tidy packages. That two different things, that seem to contradict, can both be right. That beyond the facts of existence, there is no truth or meaning but what we make.

Second guessing is nothing more than introspection. Introspection is good. Second guesses get a bad rap. It's fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh guessing that's a problem. If Dora doesn't check herself, that's shitty. But just because yopu take the time to check, it doesn't mean you have to change your mind.

You should feel bad about things you must do, when they suck. Seriously. Who says, "I had to put the dog down, but it was time so I refuse to feel bad about it"? Really creep people, IMO. Healthy is, "This hurts, and I feel guilty, but I know it's the right thing to do."

[DSL]

My guess as to Dora's toxic perception of Sven? Still-unresolved resentment over his effect on her early life, fueling her feeling he's about to do something similar (get his enjoyment, no matter the cost to another) to her friend. Result? "Fuck it, that's enough."
Speaking of "fuck it, that's enough," depending on whether Dora and Faye remain any semblance of friends, I could see as realistic Sven approaching Dora about Faye, expecting another warn-off under threat of grievous bodily harm and instead getting a "meh, whatever, screw yez both," from Li'l Sis.
Hell, that might even shock Sven out of his self-absorption and into the first faint glimmer of empathy.
Naaaah.

[BenRG]

I don't think I've ever seen Marten actually get upset over having to explain Veronica. It's old and worn terrority that he doesn't care to revisit, but it's not otherwise upsetting to him.

He's trying to chat up a pretty girl. She's more interested in his mother's career as a professional dominatrix to the point that is all she wants to talk about. Do you really think he would be interested in continuing the conversation?

Anyway, I'm thinking that you're maybe taking a light-hearted post a little too seriously?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

He's trying to chat up a pretty girl. She's more interested in his mother's career as a professional dominatrix to the point that is all she wants to talk about. Do you really think he would be interested in continuing the conversation?

Anyway, I'm thinking that you're maybe taking a light-hearted post a little too seriously?

Interested in? No. Would he continue? Certainly.

You're off base to suggest what I'm taking too seriously or not. It's patronizing and dismissive. You're also off base to argue that this difference of opinion has anything to do with Marten's feels. I said, and reiterated, her would not storm. Storming is not in character for him. If you think I'm wrong about that, by all means, make a case. But let's not pretend I'm talking about something else.

[Markus Ramikin]

DSL: makes sense, though it seems to me the problem lies more with Dora than with Sven in this case.

RF: Let me be a bit more specific than I was before: feel bad yes, feel guilty no. Her friend is in trouble and that's a bad thing, and yes, if Dora cares about her then she will feel accordingly. But any feelings of "I shouldn't have done that" or "I'm a bad person because I did that" - any guilt - she doesn't deserve, she should know that she doesn't, and stand by her decision against anyone, including the little voices in her head.

There is no such thing as 'two conflicting things are right'. Two conflicting things can both be important to you, having to choose one and miss out on the other can hurt, but they can't both be right in any specific instance. If both scales are weighed heavily, still if one is heavier than the other - there usually is - then that is the right decision, and the other is the wrong one, and that's all there is to it.

Of course life is messy, and we get screwed over by uncertainty, time-pressure, priorities changing over time, etc. But in principle, if you made the best knowable decision at the time, there's no reason in the Universe you deserve to feel bad about that. Sure, it may be "natural" to, but it's not shitty of you if you manage not to.

[DSL]

DSL: makes sense, though it seems to me the problem lies more with Dora than with Sven in this case.

We don't disagree. Dora's perceptions, accurate or otherwise, are the major driver of developments here.

[BenRG]

Oddly enough, I can see this all working towards the 2014 cast poster 'garden party'.

Time-skip forward three or more months. Faye has just left rehab after some time recovering from the worst and most self-destructive few weeks of her life and is looking to reconnect and rebuild bridges. Dora, too, is trying to put her connections to her Northampton friends back in order after a guilt-induced self-exile after Faye hitting rock bottom (she blamed herself, no matter how many times Marten, Hannelore and Tai told her that such a viewpoint was self-indulgent stupidity). Marten decided to get all the gang together in order to do so. Veronica volunteers Jim's big backyard as the venue.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

There is no such thing as 'two conflicting things are right'.

Like I said. That certainty is the root of most human evil. if it were obvious, there wouldn't be any conflict in the world.

Let me be clear: aside from fundamental facts about the universe, nothing is "true." If nothing is true, nothing can be right.

The only way to define anything as "right" or "wrong" is to make assumptions about what must be true. To establish axioms.

Let us establish the Axiom that there is nothing more important than friendship. Based on that single axiom, what Dora did is wrong.

See how easy that is? No matter what it is you believe to be true, no matter how deeply you've reasoned it out, it's all resting on some assumption that you simply assume is correct. Rather more critically, you can't even get to an actual fundamental truth. Try to justify your assumptions, and you will find you've simply invoked another set of axioms.

Critically, not everyone is using the same axioms. Sometimes, you can demonstrate that someone's axioms contradict each other. As such, their reasoning can't be "right." Sometime you can demonstrate that someone's reasoning is in conflict with their axioms. This is another case that can't be right.

But two people can apply different axioms to the same problem and come up with different answers. Both answers are "right." "Wrong" in this case doesn't mean "not true," it means "I reject your axioms."

Most people axioms aren't formal. They are beliefs and feelings. "I have to protect my business." "I have to act in a morally sound manner." :I have to support my friends." "Good people don't do hurtful things."

Those can all be the beliefs of a single person. Using any combination of those beliefs a single person can reach the conclusion that a single action is bot right and wrong. Or that two exclusive actions are both the right thing to do.

The fact is, there reasoning is correct. The failure of humans, and wellspring of evil, comes of the desire for simplicity and black vs white answers. But reality doesn't work in those terms. Reality doesn't even factor right or wrong. Reality just is. Everything else is just a point of view.

[Markus Ramikin]

Let us establish the Axiom that there is nothing more important than friendship.

Uh, why would we want to do that? It's clearly nonsense. Sure, "nothing is true" if the only thing you examine for truth-value is sweeping statements like that.

A certain character once said, "My favorite three questions are, What do I want?, What do I have?, and How can I best use the latter to get the former?" I have always found it a wonderful summary that cuts through a lot of philosophical nonsense. You don't need any axioms around values such as friendship. Just need to realize that you have multiple values and need to weigh them. Have an idea how important friendship is to you - obviously it's not infinitely important - compared to other things. And to the degree that friendship has priority in your life, what's the best way to pursue it with your limited time and energy.

Not saying it's an easy problem. It can be fiendishly difficult. But high mathematics isn't easy either, doesn't mean a true solution to an equation doesn't exist.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Let us establish the Axiom that there is nothing more important than friendship.

Uh, why would we want to do that?

To create a sample axiom that allows for an example that doesn't, itself, require further explanation. You want me to write a whole thesis on a concept, with real world detail, you have to pay me. You probably don't want to do that.

Most of the time, people don't reason out their beliefs. Since their beliefs are effectively their axioms, people haven't reasoned out their axioms. And in this case I mean all people. For every ideal you think you've handled rationally, there are probably 100 that you aren't even aware of. Your beliefs about the world have been forming ad hoc since you were born. Some of them formed before you knew what reasoning is.

When presented with internal or external conflicts, people tend to choose "destroy all uncertainty with prejudice." This leads to over reaction, war, useless self blame. Lots of different things.

Here's a really good Axiom: Never take a decision until you absolutely have to. Is it "the truth?" Of course not. But in a vast range of situations, it's probably the  best place to start. But not always. It's not really a moral axiom, so people who use it as belief are comfortable when other beliefs conflict with it. Breaking the "rule" doesn't represent a moral failure. Indeed, it can be spun as a virtue. Look at how decisive I am!

We do this all the time, juggling beliefs to get answers we're comfortable with. The issue comes in when the answers conflict and we aren't comfortable with any of them. Like say the answers say you have to protect your business and protect your friend, but you can't both without hurting your friend or your business.

Guilt is not a bad thing, in itself. I guess. It would be weird if most of humanity was wired for a pathological response. Guilt in a no win situation can act, in a reasonably healthy mind, as a motivation to find a different answer--either for the problem at hand or for similar issues in the future. Guilt only becomes an issue, when it is both misplaced and accepted as misplaced. Otherwise, it's just a file index tag that says "this memory doesn't playout the way I would like." and that's okay.

Emotion is very important to how humans work, but sometimes we give it too much power. "I have guilt here, so I must be wrong." But all guilt is is a signal of discomfort. Sometimes discomfort is the best you can do.

[swapna]

Faye is being fired for misconduct, or fired "with cause" as opposed to being laid off/let go by a company that is downsizing. As far as I understand if you are fired "with cause" you don't get any severance package, you forfeited it when you broke your employment contract. If you are fired "without cause" the company should include vacation days and other compensation as part of the severance package, as they are the ones breaking the employment contract.

Faye might be eligible for unemployment?

Yeah, that's what I meant. I was just wondering why Dora would do that - it wouldn't be that much harder to terminate Faye's employment properly, that would make her eligible for unemployment benefits, she would pay the vacation days and she can be sure that Faye won't sue her or anything since Faye knows the alternative is having none of that.

I'm not saying Faye shouldn't be fired at all, I'm just don't know why you wouldn't make sure your friend (and valued employee! As I said, Dora owes her as friend and business owner, even if Faye messed up just now) could find work again as fast as possible and could collect unemployment so she can make rent next month.

[bhtooefr]

The thing is, this way really will help push Faye towards rock bottom faster, and therefore getting the help she needs.

[swapna]

I must disagree there, sorry - I don't think messing up chances with future employers and cutting off her money so that she can't make rent is 'helping' in any way. Why would you want her to hit rock bottom instead of assuming getting fired is hitting rock bottom while still making sure she can pay her therapist?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I was just wondering why Dora would do that - it wouldn't be that much harder to terminate Faye's employment properly, that would make her eligible for unemployment benefits, she would pay the vacation days and she can be sure that Faye won't sue her or anything since Faye knows the alternative is having none of that.

There's no master record of employment. Even unemployment is down to things filed with the state that are basically confidential. Firing Faye for cause only impacts Faye's future prospects to the extent that Dora tells a future employer what she did and why. And that only applies to the extend that Faye uses Dora as a reference. Dora could fire Faye for this and not tell anyone the reason. So, as of now, none of Faye's future prospects is involved.

[bhtooefr]

Not only that, but it's generally considered best practice for employers to not say anything about an employee's performance, only that they did work there. Otherwise, they're opened up to a lawsuit.