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[mustang6172]

Microsoft has announced it's developing HoloLens, a form of augmented reality goggles.  We could have real Holoponies in our lifetime.

Happy 2015!

[Reaver]

You mean Google Glass? 

[BenRG]

You mean Google Glass? 

With Google having discontinued Glass because of lack of take-up, Microsoft are either fantastically confident in the power of their market dominance or this was a decision made when Glass was still a fad and before the fact it was a commercial failure came to light.

Regarding holo-pony...? Well, I wonder if she still hangs around Momo and Marigold?

[pwhodges]

The withdrawal of Google Glass says little for the future of the concept, though.  With time, and development of technology, who knows what the next version will do.

[Carl-E]

There's also a fundamental difference between holographics laid over your reality and what Google glass did, making information about everyting available everywhere. 

[LTK]

Unlike Google Glass, you're not meant to take a Hololens with you wherever you go. It's more of a thing that you put to use in a static environment, like a living room or an office.

Apparently this thing has a big "holy shit it's the future" factor similar to the Oculus Rift, so I'm interested to see where it goes, whereas I'm aggressively indifferent towards Google Glass.

And like any good Microsoft project, we can call it silly names. Honolulens! Hallelulens! Wolololens!

[Omega Entity]

Ah, alright. So it's a super suped-up version of the 3DS's AR functionality. Nifty.

[Oilman]

One thing I was never clear about with Dale's glasses, was what they actually produced. Dale could "see" holo-May, but (apparently) no-one else could. Momo was aware of Fay, and obviously had a visual image of some kind. May could visualise and interact with the same image.

That gave me the impression that holo-May actually appeared as a projection within Dale's glasses, and Momo "saw" May via the same Wifi connection, or possibly was simply aware of May's presence-in-context. Station appears to be able to project a visible hologram within the Space Station, but that's a very different situation - I'd applied the Red Dwarf explanation, that projecting a hologram took so much run-time and power that it was done very sparingly.

That implies holo-May existed, insofar as that can be said, as a sort of self-aware CGI model on the Robot Jail server?

[LTK]

Yeah, you've got it. May's just an image projected onto Dale's glasses, so she can't interact with anything. The similarities with the Hololens are actually shockingly numerous, with a little bit of software development you could literally get May to walk around in your very house.

Wait a minute, why isn't this in CLIKC?

[Oilman]

Sooooooo....... holo-May interacts with Dale's immediate environment. She sits on a stool, sits in his car, walks around the room without doing anything wierd like walking straight through a sofa, or standing 6" above the floor. Presumably Dale's glasses send enough data back to enable her to do that?

[LTK]

Presumably she/her holographic form has access to a 3D reconstruction of the immediate vicinity made with the help of cameras in the glasses. That's also exactly how the hololens works!

[BenRG]

Sooooooo....... holo-May interacts with Dale's immediate environment. She sits on a stool, sits in his car, walks around the room without doing anything wierd like walking straight through a sofa, or standing 6" above the floor. Presumably Dale's glasses send enough data back to enable her to do that?

I wonder if she could also use the glasses' WIFI connection to hack any local sensor devices that were on inadequately secured WIFI networks like CCTV cameras, cellphones, tablets and the like.

[Oilman]

Something like that, I suppose. If she appears courtesy of Dale's glasses, she is always in his field of view and that's all that matters.

Neat trick, though...

[DSL]

You're talking May before she was released from Robot Jail, correct? Because she's corporeal now ...

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Yeah, they're talking exclusively of virtual companions via glasses.

[Oilman]

I did think at first that holo-May was like Arnold Rimmer, generally visible, then realised she wasn't. Station seems to manifest in this manner.

It might have been clearer if holo-May had been depicted as a sort of floating entity, like the Devils and angels which sometimes appear on people's shoulders, but I suppose that would have been ambiguous and she needed to look like an AnthroPC

[Neko_Ali]

Dale's glasses clearly have some visual and audio sensors. Which isn't surprising.. Google Glass has them, and that's like the first generation of the Glasses, really. With enough of a look around, May could effectively have a 3d map of the environment to move around in, and was probably instructed to respond more or less convincingly. Or just did so on her own. Of more interesting is the fact that Momo knew that Dale had a hitchhiker, and knew who she was. Or at least knew she was in Robot Jail on work release. Which means she was able to tell from the wifi signals most likely what was going on. She may or may not have been able to see and hear May. Though after Dale and Marigold had their talk, Momo was wearing Dale's glasses, so maybe she needed the to talk with May. It's clear nobody else could hear her.

[Omega Entity]

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2508

Momo doesn't get standoffish and state that she is -fully- aware of May's presence until after May cracks the anime comment. I see her refusing to address May directly more as a sign of it being beneath her to speak to a lowly criminal, rather than her being unable to see and hear her. you'll note that she looks up to look at Dale, but is glaring quite directly as May when she speaks - all the more illustrating her disdain.

May also talks directly to Momo in the following comic, so she has no such compunction when talking to Momo, despite Momo's obvious slights against her.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2510

May and Momo directly converse with each other here.

As for her trying on the glasses, I imagine it was more out of curiosity rather than necessity.

[Oilman]

I don't know about Momo considering holo-May "beneath her", holo-May is plain rude and downright, gratuitously offensive. Momo is fully ENTITLED to take offence, and given that holo-May is undoubtedly recognisable as a convicted robo-criminal on some sort of ticket-of-leave, Momo is quite right in describing her as a criminal.

Holo-May is clearly consciously interacting with the observed environment, she passes her arm THROUGH Dale for the sake of effect.

That said, her comments about Dale, May and social ineptitude, and Momo's lack of understanding and consequent useless course of action, are pretty much right.

[Omega Entity]

I disagree about Momo's outlook on May. It's all in the wording, and how Momo treats her that indicates that May is 'beneath' her. Telling Dale to tell May something, while using those words to describe her, while May is right there is a pretty solid social cue that Momo doesn't want to degrade herself or even deign to acknowledge the "degenerate, criminal hitchhiker" that she sees May as being. She also refers to her as a 'creature' in the following page, with an inferred tone of considering her little more than an animal, and not a sentient being.

If that's not an indication of someone thinking someone else is beneath them, I don't know what is.

[Oilman]

I wouldn't be dogmatic about it. Momo strongly disapproves of holo-May, and most people seem to find that a little experience of May (in any shape or form) is more than sufficient. Holo-May is an obvious criminal, with the manners of a chimp at times. She imposes herself on Dale, insults people because they can't perceive her, is plain rude to Momo and gratuitously offensive to Marigold.

She goes off on a rant about "robot racism" when small businesses won't employ an applicant who us plainly just out if jail for a major breach of trust.

[Omega Entity]

Actually, it wasn't that the place wouldn't hire her because she was an ex-con, but because she is a robot - her being an ex-con wasn't even mentioned in the conversation with the clerk, where the clerk informed her that her boss doesn't hire robots. That's it. Which implies that it wouldn't matter -what- kind of record a robot has. they could be a saint, and that employer wouldn't hire them.

So, the 'robot racism' rant was, in that case, justified.

[Oilman]

This is the core of the "racism" accusation, isn't it? The boss in question may have every good reason not to hire robots. His customers may not respond well to them, and it harms his business. It may be that they lack some necessary skill, unless they specifucally have it.  I'll bet folding money that no-one us offering to make up that lost revenue.

Anyway, May has an obvious gap in her CV and no credible account of what she has been doing for however long she gas been in Robot Jail. Anyone hiring staff will draw the obvious conclusion.

But no, let's just shout "racist"

[hedgie]

The "lost business" excuse has been used many times in the past for not even considering "x".  Sorry, that does !fly.  The shop worker had no idea that May was a convict, with a record of fraud, which *is* a valid reason to remove her from consideration.

[Omega Entity]

^This. I also find it hard to believe that a robot wouldn't be able to simply download the algorithms and protocols necessary to 'train' for whatever task they'd be required to do. Even proper social interaction is something that can be simply installed. I believe that it was stated that Momo has the protocols installed, after all. So there's that argument shot down right there.

The owner of the store simply doesn't like robots, and because of such refuses to hire them. If you were to use that same argument for black people, or Asian people, or white people, it's be considered racist. So why not robots?

[Oilman]

Well, there's the case for "racism" as a default position, right there. Shopkeepers depend on people walking in the door. They know which of their staff make sales, and which don't. People aren't rational and they DO vote with their feet and wallets; are you saying the shopkeeper could, or should ignore that so you can feel smug?

Plus, May is plain obnoxious and anyone experienced in hiring staff would spot that as soon as she opened her mouth, or even before.

[hedgie]

Why not re-introduce segregation or even slavery whilst we're at it?  Hell, I wouldn't want bigoted customers in any business I owned anyhow, and even as just a peon, I've booted a few and told them that if they came back, they'd be charged with trespass.  Either take a stand for decency, or be a moral coward.

Edit:  May's personality/behaviour might be *valid* reasons to refuse employment.  Hell, in her case, I'd have probably have bought and worn better clothing before even asking, just so as to look "more professional" (contingent on type of employment).  But that's excluding people for *who* they are, and not *what* is unjustifiable by any system of ethics I've ever heard of.

[Oilman]

I can only assume you've never depended for your livelihood, on the sort of low-margin, small owner-run business that May appears to have been applying to. I grew up in a family like that, worked behind the counter and I'll tell you that all money is the same colour. My father did things at times with no real logic because they seemed to affect trade, one way or another.

You have a limited relationship with customers, that boils down to getting them to buy something from you rather than somewhere else. On that basis, you feed your family and pay your taxes. Feeling morally superior to paying customers is a LONG way down that list.

This is an issue that could be developed at length in the comic, but probably won't be.

[Oilman]

Actually, the whole issue of May working in a convenience store is quite interesting.

We've been told at various times that Pintsize' chassis is worth at least $3k, and that Momo is walking around in a $30k chassus. That all implies that May's bargain-basement chassis must be worth at least $10k. You might not think that it was viable to spend $10k on a counter assistant; but if May worked the hours, and replaced two part-to-full time Humsn staff for two or three years, that could be a good investment.

Meanwhile those two displaced human staff are looking for employment. They can't stand in the corner powered-down when unoccupied. THEY take the view that it is wrong, morally wrong that a thing of metal and plastic has taken their income. They complain to their political representative, congressman, MP, whoever it may be. An intern (who clearly doesn't need the money, or they couldn't afford to have an unpaid job) dismisses them as "robot racists" and they make no useful progress.

SOMEONE is right and wrong in all that; May continues as before; one of the former employees gets another job, the other doesn't. May actually has more job security than a human, because of the need to recover the investment.

[Neko_Ali]

Let us be clear here: Racism is NEVER acceptable. Not ever. No, not even then. Not wanting to hire May because she has a criminal background, kind of iffy but depending on the job and why she was in jail, possibly understandable. Not wanting to hire her because she has an abrasive personality definitely acceptable for a customer service position if she is unwilling or unable to tone it down. But not wanting to hire her because she's a robot? (or alternately insert black, hispanic, white, asian, middle eastern or any other kind of ethnic decent) That is the very definition of discrimination and it is not acceptable. Ever.

[Carl-E]

Here's the problem with racist/sexist/any "-ist" store owners - they lose business, either way.  If you're not welcoming to groups you don't like, they won't patronize you, and you lose their business.  If you don't hire clerks who look like the neighborhood, the neighborhood will view you poorly and you lose their business. 

I know one shopkeeper here in town who's racist as fuck - hates blacks, hispanics, dagos, the whole nine yards.  Anyone not lily-white.  But he smiles as broadly as ever when he takes their money, and has a black clerk who puts up with him for the paycheck (that's a whole other dynamic, the old wage slavery...). 

I only know of his attitudes because I've met him socially a few times.  In his shop, he's so cool about it that butter wouldn't melt in his mouth. 

The racist customers you're afraid of losing if you hire an [insert group here] clerk or waiter?  They'll keep coming - the despised person is in a position of servitude, after all. 

The dynamics are not what you expect at first. 

[Kugai]

Global Moderator Comment

OK, I think this Topic is beginning to deviate into a circular argument that has nothing to do with it's stated intention. Either get back on subject or move the discussion to a new Thread.

[jwhouk]

I think that Jeph basically decided to base Dale's glasses off of what was known at the time (Google Glass) and go from there, based on the tech he knew existed in the QC-verse at the time.

Something like Oculus Rift and Microsoft's fancy stuff weren't even on the radar.

[Omega Entity]

I don't think the Oculus Rift is even comparable, honestly. The Rift doesn't overlay the current environment, but is essentially an advanced virtual reality system. Google Glass, as I understood it, was pretty much having a tiny computer screen in front of your face.

Now, the 3DS's AR (Augmented Reality) function actually overlays a digital image onto a physical surface, and as such seems like a much better reference for what the new MS thing does - which makes the MS device a way, way more advanced form of that technology and on a larger scale, more than it would be relatable to the Rift or Glass. Seriously, check out some videos on it.

[Oilman]

HoloLens is a piece of genuine genius. Microsoft has still got it.

Microsoft understood, at a time when it was not obvious and by no means generally accepted, that "a PC on every desk" performing functiins that were genuinely useful, operated by ordinary people and using a standardised operating format, was the future.

They understood Windows and more to the point, turned it into something universal.

Looks like they've done it again. I've seen most components of HoloLens in various top-dollar professional applications, but the whole concept is going to be a game-changer

[Carl-E]

Wait - do you live in Redmond, by any chance? 

[Is it cold in here?]

The really amazing thing about Dale's Glasses is that someone in his income bracket can afford them. That means they're solidly a mass market item.

[Oilman]

I understood that they were a beta project and he had them as a trial - didn't May mention that he could claim $500 by submitting to a user review process?

[Is it cold in here?]

Here's the comic about that.

[LTK]

I understood that they were a beta project and he had them as a trial - didn't May mention that he could claim $500 by submitting to a user review process?

The AI companion was a trial. The glasses themselves are a product sold generally. There haven't been any allusions to them being a beta project themselves. Marigold has tried them and they give her migraines.

[Akima]

This is the core of the "racism" accusation, isn't it? The boss in question may have every good reason not to hire robots. His customers may not respond well to them, and it harms his business.

Let's replace the word "robots" in this passage with the word "blacks" or "Asians" or "Jews". Would that be OK? Does the prejudice of your customers make your racially discriminatory actions acceptable? Is racial discrimination perfectly fine as long as you do it for money? I answer "no" to all these questions.

If someone refused to hire me because I'm of Chinese descent, I would not hesitate to call him racist. His customers might be racists too, so that hiring me might harm his business, but that does not absolve him.

[jwhouk]

(Psst: Mods have already asked to go back to discussing the glasses...)

I think it's possible that the glasses that Dale has have evolved into a combination of what HoloLens and Google Glass are. Though it sounds like Virtual AI Companion isn't as popular as an actual IdoruPC would be.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

[Omega Entity]

I'm getting the distinct feeling that no one's reading anything I write, and I'm just talking to myself.

[MooskiNet]

I'm getting the distinct feeling that no one's reading anything I write, and I'm just talking to myself.

Nah, that's just the internet playing silly buggers with you.  The people here are mostly awesome, but depending on the topic and how it's morphing, it can occasionally feel like you're shouting into an empty drum.

[Omega Entity]

When I've repeated myself and still get ignored, it's hard to think otherwise.
[/end whiny derail more suitable to a prepubescent newb than a 31 year old woman]

[jwhouk]

Obviously, the 3DS/AR concept is closer to what Dale's Glasses actually are. The idea that they could house an AI, even in a holographic format, would seem to indicate they're pretty dang high tech.

Though, for the QC-verse, that might be something you can get at the dollar store...

[Neko_Ali]

I'm doubting they are that cheap... Otherwise a lot of people would be using them. I suspect they are a limited release or high end tech device, at least comparable to a console or computer. Something that people who are into that sort of thing may get, or own multiple copies of. But not thought of as disposable tech. Since they do seem to really be more advanced and ordinary looking versions of Google Glass. It would be interesting if we could see the view from Dale's POV and tell how it works. But then I've never seen through a Goggle Glass either.

As I have heard it, it's like a video monitor imposed on your field of view, and can respond to limited touch and voice commands. Microsoft's new system seems to be going a step beyond. Incorporating augmented reality tech to make it really look like you are seeing the image superimposed on physical surfaces instead of just an optical illusion of a floating screen. Similar tech and basically how May worked. Plus adding in sensors that can identify when you are trying to interact with those projected images.

When this gets into more widespread use (and given how useful it will be, I see it as a when and not an if), I think we are going to see a big shift in how people interact. Think of it now when you're in a store or on the street and see someone talking to themselves, before you probably thought they were crazy. As in literally seeing and talking to things that weren't there. Now it's most likely someone talking on the phone. Image what it's going to be like when people are walking around, talking and gesturing at things as they manipulate their own personal display that no one else can see...

[Is it cold in here?]

Momo doesn't get standoffish and state that she is -fully- aware of May's presence until after May cracks the anime comment. I see her refusing to address May directly more as a sign of it being beneath her to speak to a lowly criminal, rather than her being unable to see and hear her.

That's how I took it as well. It raises an interesting point about AI technology, namely, by what communications channel did Momo find out? It may be that May has the equivalent of a scarlet letter or an ankle bracelet which is designed to show up on AnthroPC radar.

[Oilman]

Holo-May obviously appears courtesy of a remote server, so Momo must be able to detect the data stream in some way, although it isn't addressed to her. It would be interesting to know if this is something specific to Momo, because she is pretty high-end herself. Dale's glasses must function like a remote monitor or a HUD on an aircraft?

Walking round talking to imaginary friends would really be no more absurd than talking on a hands free hidden in your hair or under your hat. After all, if you can't touch them or interact with them, you aren't going to shake hands with them, are you?

[Neko_Ali]

The difference between talking to someone on a phone, or viewing them as a hologram (or the Google Glass vs Microsoft Hololens) is that it won't be just talking... You'll be moving around, interacting with things you only you can see. Which will be kind of disconcerting to see until people get used to it. Kind of like when hands free headsets for mobile phones first came out, people often didn't react well because they thought they were crazy, not realizing they were on phones. Or more currently, people with Google Glass were attacked, verbally and physically, just for wearing the thing. A lot of times by people who just assumed they were recording everything when they had them on. Mind you, if I thought I'd be attacked at any time for wearing one, you're dang right I'd be recording. But that's kind of circular thinking.