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Author Topic: Momo and faye  (Read 5183 times)

Oilman

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Momo and faye
« on: 29 Jan 2015, 21:41 »

There seems to be an important plot point here.

Momo isn't close to FAYE but is certainly familiar with her. She undoubtedly recognises addictive behaviour (Marigold's various anime-based follies) and knows about alcohol and drunken behaviour.

She has spoken about regarding her role as companion as a vocation, and actively intervenes in Marigold's life as she sees fit. Pintsize - who knows FAYE well and knows quite a lot about alcohol-related issues, indeed displays similar behaviour himself - has stated that he sees his responsibilities to Marten as largely completed.

There's an implication here that they take a fairly literal view of who is, or isn't their problem, and don't regard FAYE as their problem. Faye, in turn, has shown that she certainly doesn't like Pintsize, and whether she regards Momo as a person is a good question - she certainly treated Chibi-Momo as a doll.

So, are Pintsize and Momo just treating FAYE as she treats them, or is there a wider issue?
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ASB84

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #1 on: 29 Jan 2015, 22:23 »

I'm not sure that it goes beyond Faye not being their responsibility any more than she's Dora's responsibility, or Marten's responsibility, or anyone else's for that matter. Faye is an adult who has to take responsibility for her own life.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #2 on: 29 Jan 2015, 22:49 »

Well, so she is. Momo isn't Faye's keeper, nor is Pintsize. But Pintsize is involved with Marten and there is a considerable backstory, which includes Pintsize.

If Pintsize feels he has a responsibility to Marten, and Momo's behaviour towards Marigold plus his own statement suggests so, then he should recognise that Marten will be adversely affected by Faye's problems. But, his general "bshaving like a complete dick for his own reasons" schtick means he provides no useful support at all.

Maybe there is a moment of self-awareness coming for Pintsize, too?


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Is it cold in here?

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #3 on: 29 Jan 2015, 23:39 »

If Pintsize decides his job is finished with Marten, he's free to break off that companionship contract and start a new one.

Pintsize as Faye's roommate and AA sponsor would cause endless comedy.

Momo has the makings of a good therapist but, as Oilman points out, has a history of mistreatment from Faye.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #4 on: 29 Jan 2015, 23:56 »

Pintsize is Faye's room-mate already, in most respects. It wouldn't be comic, because she clearly doesn't give a damn WHAT he thinks, and it isn't hard to see why that is.

Momo, a therapist? Sorry, I disagree. She gets away with pushing Marigold around because Marigold recognises the basic truth of a lot of Momo's points, but May's summary of Dale and Marigold as two people incapable of basic socisl interaction was hardly rocket science; but it was true, and Momo had completely missed it.

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BenRG

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Re: Momo and Faye
« Reply #5 on: 30 Jan 2015, 02:22 »

In many ways, I find Momo's personality very similar to that of a recent immigrant in the face of known injustice. She knows that AIs position in society is precarious; they are vastly outnumbered and no struggle between human and AI can end with anything but disaster (possibly for both sides). Because of this, she is very wary about drawing attention to herself or open herself to accusations of poking into affairs that are none of her business.

This nervousness about boundaries as to what humans will and will not tolerate is seen many times. Momo will stand up and defend herself against perceived threats (and Clinton annoying people). She will also be firm with those whom she regards as close friends (and whose well-being she doubtless considers it a moral imperative to safeguard). However, outside those two areas, she is nervous and clearly afraid to cross boundaries. Because of this, I can't see her proactively approaching Faye, no matter how serious her assessment of her condition. That's assuming that she spends enough time around Faye to be able to assess her condition and assuming that she made the conscious choice to do so. Neither of those latter conditions seem likely to have been met.
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hedgie

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #6 on: 30 Jan 2015, 02:39 »

Well, if Faye's deep in depression, Momo is well-equipped to administer ECT.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #7 on: 30 Jan 2015, 02:54 »

Momo is more like a teenager, as has been pointed out elsewhere. She isn't like an immigrant, because AFAIK this is her first incarnation, call it what you will, she may be an inexperienced or immature member of the culture but she isn't an immigrant.

« Last Edit: 30 Jan 2015, 03:27 by Oilman »
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BenRG

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #8 on: 30 Jan 2015, 02:58 »

None of the AIs are, as far as can be seen. We don't know WHERE May tried to steal a fighter jet, or where the Idoru sales AI was a bank teller or a forklift, but by Occam's razor it was in the US unless anyone demonstrates otherwise.

...

You clearly completely failed to understand my post. I'm not saying that the AIs are immigrants. I'm saying that they have the same psychology as immigrants.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #9 on: 30 Jan 2015, 03:22 »

None of the AIs are, as far as can be seen. We don't know WHERE May tried to steal a fighter jet, or where the Idoru sales AI was a bank teller or a forklift, but by Occam's razor it was in the US unless anyone demonstrates otherwise.

...

You clearly completely failed to understand my post. I'm not saying that the AIs are immigrants. I'm saying that they have the same psychology as immigrants.

No, I'm saying your point is not valid and stating my reasins for saying do
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BenRG

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jan 2015, 03:25 »

No, I'm saying your point is not valid and stating my reasins for saying do

The second paragraph of the post I quoted in my rebuttal undermines your claim when you start rattling on about where May and where the sales AI came from.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #11 on: 30 Jan 2015, 03:28 »

Ok, I've deleted that section if it makes it clearer. The point remains that Momo isn't like an immigrant because as far as anyone can tell, Northsmpton is all she knows.
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BenRG

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #12 on: 30 Jan 2015, 03:34 »

Ok, I've deleted that section if it makes it clearer. The point remains that Momo isn't like an immigrant because as far as anyone can tell, Northsmpton is all she knows.

Still missing the point.

It isn't that she's from somewhere else. It is because, like an immigrant, she is part of a minority that suffers a considerable social stigma and discrimination in certain circles (she once noted to Marten that a local preacher in Northampton said that AIs have no souls and that this disturbed her). One can be an outsider even in the place you've lived all your life if you fit into the loudest people's concept of 'the Other/the Alien'.

BTW - Momo's original chassis was built by Sony, IIRC. It is thus quite possible that she is Japanese by 'birth' (her algorithm was compiled in a Japanese electronics laboratory) but has only ever been operational in the US. However, there is no way of knowing that for certain. It is quite possible that she was compiled and installed on her original chassis in a Sony-owned factory/laboratory in the US.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #13 on: 30 Jan 2015, 03:48 »

No, you are defining "immigrant" as "victim" which is a very specific point if view, which you then overturn by pointing out that the sense of lack of belonging doesn't necessarily relate to immigration at all.

I'd disregarded the question of where she was assembled because as you say, it doesn't lead anywhere useful.

As far as I can see, Momo answers the question about souls when she describes an AI "religion" which makes sense in context but is completely inaccessible to humans.
« Last Edit: 30 Jan 2015, 03:59 by Oilman »
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Thrillho

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #14 on: 30 Jan 2015, 04:14 »

No, he's defining 'immigrant' as 'minority,' which is absolutely correct (what countries have a population that is anywhere close to 51% immigrants?), and any minority faces stigma and discrimination. You're focusing on the immigrant comparison instead of the minority comparison.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #15 on: 30 Jan 2015, 04:32 »

No, he's defining 'immigrant' as 'minority,' which is absolutely correct (what countries have a population that is anywhere close to 51% immigrants?), and any minority faces stigma and discrimination. You're focusing on the immigrant comparison instead of the minority comparison.


Well, they arent the same thing.
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Thrillho

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #16 on: 30 Jan 2015, 04:41 »

Which is irrelevant. This is about minorities, not about what makes them a minority. And the AI in QC may well be allegorical.
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pwhodges

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #17 on: 30 Jan 2015, 04:53 »

Well, they arent the same thing.

No, of course not.  It was an analogy.
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Neko_Ali

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #18 on: 30 Jan 2015, 05:06 »

If it makes it better, I've always kind of felt the analogy is a bit more like AIs to trans people. But that's personal experience. They are often seen as similar to human but markedly different. Or for cases where they have chibi frames like Pintsize, seen more as objects and toys than people. Though AIs probably do face some of the same prejudices that immigrants do in the 'strangers coming here to take our jobs/land/stuff' mindset. It could be argued that no matter where they go they are outsiders because they are a new form of clearly intelligent life on the planet.

On topic of the OP though... I don't see that Momo would even know that Faye has a problem. She is at best a friend of a friend and has had little interaction other than the lake party and stopping to get coffee with Marten. If people who work and live with Faye didn't see how bad she was getting, how could someone who may interact with her a few minutes a week? And even if she did, about all that she would likely be expected to do is ask Marten if she was okay.. which as far as he knew, she was hurting over the break up, but he didn't know how bad she was.

Pintsize I think did see how bad Faye was getting. But because of his personality and reputation he is never taken seriously by anyone and he knows this. Most of the time he revels in it because it removes him from responsibility for most of his action. Until he's disassembled or tossed into a wall or stuffed into the freezer. The flip side being that when he does need to be taken seriously, nobody ever will. He probably still should have talked with Marten about how much Faye was drinking but well... it's part of the story.
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Oilman

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #19 on: 30 Jan 2015, 05:07 »

analogies, allegories, woop de doo!

Allegory for what? Analogy to what? Padma was/is Indian and treated Marten pretty poorly. Emily is some sort of Asian and completely out of her tree, on occasion. The other coloured intern (Gabby?) just drifted off. Tai has some sort of generic non-white ethnicity and behaves like a 6-year-old at times. The white characters seem a great deal saner than the non-white ones, with the notable exceptions of Faye and Dale (who is a genuinely all-round good bloke, as far as can be seen).

Momo is a very different proposition from May, who is a pretty nasty piece of work on the limited evidence. Pintsize is a complete dick, most of the time (incidentally, DOES he have a chibi chassis? I'd say not, on the grounds that he is quite non-human. Winslow, as basically an animated iPod, is "full size" after all)


I don't see the point?




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BenRG

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #20 on: 30 Jan 2015, 05:33 »

I don't see the point?

Okay, I'll do this as simply as I can.
  • Momo is a member of a new, emergent species, the machine intelligence (sometimes shortened to AI although, post-Singularity, the 'artificial' part is no longer true);
  • Like all new groups in any larger community, there are those who regard AIs as lesser and resent their presence;
  • Momo is very aware of how her actions reflect upon her species as a whole;
  • Because of concerns of overstepping the bounds to which humans are willing to allow her and her kind (and thus triggering a nasty backlash), Momo may feel constrained from acting in some cases for fear of stirring up trouble for her and her fellow AIs.
The analogy is, of course, to how ethnic minorities, especially recent immigrant groups feel that they have to be very careful of whose toes they tread on, no matter how rightfully and with good intent. I work with immigrants and I can assure you that their fear of the authorities and unwillingness to 'rock the boat', no matter the situation is a continual frustration.

However, I suspect that this argument is irrelevant. The real issue is that, in all probability, Momo only knows Faye casually (if at all) and has no idea about her problems.
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Thrillho

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #21 on: 30 Jan 2015, 05:41 »

I don't see the point?

Ben has done a pretty great job of explaining this already, but I'll just add one more point, which is that the word 'coloured' is in no way an acceptable way of referring to someone of a racial minority.
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DillyDolly

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #22 on: 30 Jan 2015, 05:50 »

I think they don't help her because she isn't their responsibility—literally. I can't recall any of the main robot characters trying to help anyone other than the humans they were assigned to. The robots were specifically matched up with their humans at the human-robot exchange match-maker place (I forget the name :) ). Pintsize says his job with Marten is nearly done, but he is still assigned to him so he's probably still needed. I *am* wondering if Faye will get a robot buddy. Seems like she's in worse shape than any of the cast and could use one most of all, but I'm not sure how she'd end up with one unless she asked or sent in an application.
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Zebediah

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #23 on: 30 Jan 2015, 06:36 »

analogies, allegories, woop de doo!

Allegory for what? Analogy to what? Padma was/is Indian and treated Marten pretty poorly. Emily is some sort of Asian and completely out of her tree, on occasion. The other coloured intern (Gabby?) just drifted off. Tai has some sort of generic non-white ethnicity and behaves like a 6-year-old at times. The white characters seem a great deal saner than the non-white ones, with the notable exceptions of Faye and Dale (who is a genuinely all-round good bloke, as far as can be seen).

Momo is a very different proposition from May, who is a pretty nasty piece of work on the limited evidence. Pintsize is a complete dick, most of the time (incidentally, DOES he have a chibi chassis? I'd say not, on the grounds that he is quite non-human. Winslow, as basically an animated iPod, is "full size" after all)


I don't see the point?

Clearly you don't. And I can't even begin to guess at the point of your post here. You list all of the non-white characters and make comments about them that have nothing to do with anything actually being discussed, in order to prove - what, exactly? What does Padma being Indian have to do with the way Marten treated her? What does Emily being "some sort of Asian" (that would be Japanese-American, BTW) have to do with the way she behaves? What does Tai being somewhat dark-skinned have to do with anything? Why does Dale being a good person seem to surprise you?

What the hell does your post even mean? Do you know yourself?
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Beroli

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #24 on: 30 Jan 2015, 06:46 »

I think the "treating Momo as a doll" thing may speak more to "at that point the comic was treating AnthroPCs as computers with humorous don't-think-about-it-too-much sapience" than to "Faye would nonconsensually juggle someone who the universe she lived in regarded as a person."
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A Duck

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #25 on: 30 Jan 2015, 10:03 »

Have Momo and Faye even interacted since Momo changed chassis?
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Pilchard123

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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #26 on: 30 Jan 2015, 10:09 »

They travelled to the lake party in the same car, and IIRC Momo hid behind Faye when Emily appeared with the mask and hatchet.
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Re: Momo and faye
« Reply #27 on: 30 Jan 2015, 12:55 »

Momo already has to split her time between a job and her assignment to Marigold, at which she is still needed. At most she could be an occasional sounding board for Faye.
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