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The hospital waiting room?

50 (33.3%)

Faye on a trip down Deriver Denial?

26 (17.3%)

Emergency Cast Meeting?

45 (30%)

The police station, charged with the assault (or even murder) of Pintsize?

9 (6%)

Weird archetype-filled dream sequence for Faye in which she sees her life as a strange Pyroland-like fantasy and is Elightened?

20 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 139

[TRVA123]

This is where the compartmentalization comes in.

Boss Dora has fired Faye.

Friend Dora is delaying that so that Faye has medical coverage.

Friend Dora does not want Faye to freak out about paying for her hospital visit (since Faye thinks she has lost health coverage).

Friend Dora does not want to see a *potentially unstable hospitalized* Faye and send Faye into an even worse state of anxiety.

Friend Dora has Hanners pass word on to Faye that, while Faye has quite a lot to worry about right now, paying for this hospital visit isn't one of them.

------------------
There is a time to be professional, and there is a time to be empathetic. I think Dora is walking that line very well, and possibly at great personal cost.

[Tova]

Opinion on the forum is clearly split over which way she should have handled it.

Maybe therefore consider the possibility that Dora's choice of how to handle it does not make her a horrible human being?

[Spiritz]

I wouldn't fault Dora for doing it the way she did.  Sure, it would have been better to have Marten be the messenger, but I think Dora just wanted to say her part to whomever comes outside first.  She can't wait outside waiting for the right person to come out.

[St.Clair]

Bears for everyone.

[Oilman]

The whole insurance/employment business needs taking at face value and moving on.

Dora has done several things which are procedurally wrong, including telling FAYE she has insurance - which Dora can't know for certain, given the messy circumstances.

[TRVA123]

How could Dora NOT know if Faye is still covered by her shops insurance?

and is there a legally established procedure for these types of cases? AFAIK there really isn't in the US. The procedure is decided by the employer.

[Aziraphale]

This is where the compartmentalization comes in.

Boss Dora has fired Faye.

Friend Dora is delaying that so that Faye has medical coverage.

Friend Dora does not want Faye to freak out about paying for her hospital visit (since Faye thinks she has lost health coverage).

Friend Dora does not want to see a *potentially unstable hospitalized* Faye and send Faye into an even worse state of anxiety.

Friend Dora has Hanners pass word on to Faye that, while Faye has quite a lot to worry about right now, paying for this hospital visit isn't one of them.

------------------
There is a time to be professional, and there is a time to be empathetic. I think Dora is walking that line very well, and possibly at great personal cost.

I started to comment that the Faye/Dora dynamic in this arc has been kinda a Rorschach test among the forum (in much the same way the Dora/Sven dynamic is, or the Faye/Angus drama was), but I think you've managed a better and more concise explanation than I would've.

The whole insurance/employment business needs taking at face value and moving on.

Dora has done several things which are procedurally wrong, including telling FAYE she has insurance - which Dora can't know for certain, given the messy circumstances.

She's Faye's (soon-to-be-ex) employer. If she says the severance hasn't been submitted yet and Faye still has insurance, then Faye still has insurance. I've been in similar circumstances -- had to go for surgery literally the night I was laid off from a job, and my employer, to their credit (and my gratitude) kept my insurance active 'til the surgery and followup visits were done with. That's not to say she may not have done something that'll come back to bite her in the ass later, mind you, but she seems to be doing her level best to do the right thing in two different and difficult sets of circumstances.

Bears for everyone.

I'll second that.

[Omega Entity]

The whole insurance/employment business needs taking at face value and moving on.

Dora has done several things which are procedurally wrong, including telling FAYE she has insurance - which Dora can't know for certain, given the messy circumstances.

You seem really stuck on the issue of real-life employment practices and procedures versus employment practices and procedures in a fictional comic world, since you keep bringing it up again and again. For the sake of story, I believe this is one of those 'hand wave' situations - Accept that it's apparently different and/or doesn't have the same consequences as how things work in the real world (or simply isn't important for the story), and move on.

It's a comic. Yes, it doesn't line up with real life. No, it's not a problem, and not integral to, or preventing the story from moving on. In fact, I'm glad that it -wouldn't- be bogged down with the policies and legalese of employment law. That'd make for a boring comic, especially since the focus is on the CHARACTERS, and not entirely on the bureaucratic idiosyncrasies of the world they exist in.

[ASB84]

While there's a harshness and plenty of awkwardness to it, I still have no problem with the way Dora is acting, given the circumstances. The firing was just, and she's right to stand by the decision. However, she's also showing compassion by delaying the official termination, so as to help Faye out from a financial standpoint. It's understandable that she's passing along a message through someone who is not only an employee but also a close mutual friend, because at this point in time, minimising contact with Faye isn't a terrible idea.

[Oilman]

.... that's pretty much what I said. There are too many loose ends; lets get back to the wider story.

I don't really understand US insurance practice, but suffice it to say that I had an extremely negative experience, long ago, which led me to decide to turn down a job offer; it's no great exaggeration to say it was a life-changing exoerience, given that I was being approached for a position whuch might well have led me to take up residence in US. I have enough contact with US to know that I haven't changed my view of that decision over quite a long period of time.

[Smeagol]

It...it just occurred to me. Bear=beer. That's why Hanners wasn't sure if it was appropriate or not.

[Kugai]

Now she'll head off on a drinking binge

Shit.

[Reaver]

... she was written as spunky and flirty and amorous. Now she's selfish, cruel and mean-spirited, without a single drop of kindness, empathy or loyalty.

She's being VERY kind, by making sure that Faye's insurance will still pay for her  despite firing her (FOR A GOOD REASON, Faye drank at work, LIED about it, and came in drunk)

If your idea of kindness is "Enable and ignore every bad decision and always look the other way as your friend self destructs" then I feel bad for your friends, because sometimes  the RIGHT thing to do for somebody isn't always the KINDEST but it's what they need.

It's Dora's firing that got Faye to realize she is NOT okay and needs help.

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[Omega Entity]

... she was written as spunky and flirty and amorous. Now she's selfish, cruel and mean-spirited, without a single drop of kindness, empathy or loyalty.

She's being VERY kind, by making sure that Faye's insurance will still pay for her  despite firing her (FOR A GOOD REASON, Faye drank at work, LIED about it, and came in drunk)

If your idea of kindness is "Enable and ignore every bad decision and always look the other way as your friend self destructs" then I feel bad for your friends, because sometimes  the RIGHT thing to do for somebody isn't always the KINDEST but it's what they need.

It's Dora's firing that got Faye to realize she is NOT okay and needs help.

Amen.

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[ASB84]

If we're looking for other reasons that Dora's attitude towards Faye has changed a bit...well, maybe she is growing a bit tired of her abrasiveness. At one point it was oddly charming and endearing, but over the years, perhaps it's become more grating.

I think making her the assistant manager is also a factor here. On top of increasing her sense of feeling betrayed when Faye broke the "no drinking at work" rule, there was also the incident where Penelope and Cosette were willing to immediately quit upon being told about it. While she managed to allay their concerns and smooth things over, maybe that was a bit of an eye-opener for Dora; until that moment, maybe she didn't really think about how Faye treated other people, or didn't consider it a problem because Faye didn't treat her as abrasively as she does other people (what with being her employer, and all).

[Kugai]

I don't think Dora could feel any more shitty about how things have turned out if she tried.

As I said before, I don't think she intended for this to happen when she fired Faye, I think she just hoped that it would be a shock to Faye's system yes, but one that would wake her up to the fact that she had stepped over the line with her being drunk/drinking on the job, especially as she had shown enough faith in Faye to move her up to Assistant Manager.

She probably feels lower than Dogshit right now, and is unsure about going to see Faye due to what happened.

[Dark Matter]

Which is why we have COBRA: http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-consumer-cobra.html

Fair point, although COBRA has its own problems: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/17/223341729/laid-off-and-looking-for-health-insurance-beware-of-cobra

Also, that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as my problems with at-will employment, but since they're mostly political I guess this probably isn't the right forum for it.

[Truec]

The main problem I continue to have with Dora is that Faye told her, to her face, without joking, that she wanted to be drunk every waking moment.  And Dora never followed up on that.  Firing Faye was the right thing to do, for Dora, for Coffee of Doom, and for Faye, but the hell kind of shitty friend decides a statement like that isn't anything to be concerned about?

[Omega Entity]

Again, as I mentioned before, constantly joking and being sarcastic is an excellent cover for how shitty someone feels - Dora probably read it as Faye being over-the-top, and not as a serious sign. And frankly, with Faye's personality and how she presents herself, it's no wonder that Dora, or anyone else, didn't pick up on it.

[Kugai]

She probably was, but Boss Dora was talking back then in CoD.

I don't think that Friend Dora got the chance to step in before it all went Pear shaped.

[CasAttack]

Dora's doing the right thing here. It is complex, and difficult, but she needs to stick to her guns on the termination. Obviously she feels TERRIBLE for her friend, but this decision is not one she made as a friend. She did it as a boss, and she has to be careful for a variety of reasons on how she handles this.

While maybe not relaying anything to Faye RIGHT NOW would have been smarter, she's trying her best to be impartial where she needs to be. Dora's probably wondering if this is her fault (it isn't) and feels super low.

This could cause a serious, serious rift in the friendship and dynamics among the entire group. I've seen my family go through lost friendships because of business purposes, this is a very real possibility.

[mvdwege]

I don't think Dora could feel any more shitty about how things have turned out if she tried.

Agree. And members of the cast have different reactions to feeling shitty: Marten mopes, Faye drinks, Hanners throws herself into a job or a fleeting obssession, and Dora? Dora turns inward and lashes out at the world.

It's been a consistent pattern of behaviour since the beginning of the comic. Which makes this comic rather peculiar: Dora is, while rather harsh, actually not lashing out as hard as she can.

[jheartney]

Fair point, although COBRA has its own problems: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/17/223341729/laid-off-and-looking-for-health-insurance-beware-of-cobra

 Yup, may not be as good as ACA. Before ACA, it was COBRA or nothing. Now it's COBRA or ACA. Two choices. Progress! (Unless Republican Supreme Court justices kill ACA over a technicality.)

You're right, not the right thread for this. Just had to point that out.

[Oilman]

Which is why we have COBRA: http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-consumer-cobra.html

Fair point, although COBRA has its own problems: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/17/223341729/laid-off-and-looking-for-health-insurance-beware-of-cobra

Also, that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as my problems with at-will employment, but since they're mostly political I guess this probably isn't the right forum for it.

It's sometimes said that the NHS is the nearest thing the British have to a religion. I don't agree with this 100% but I certainly agree that it is something they (we) take very seriously. Same goes for Zero Hours Contracts and agency work, an issue inextricably linked with immigration and in many respects, EAW by another name; which the British find deeply unacceptable.

[NilsO]

I guess the topics for the rest of the week is going to be:

• Thursday: Faye's reaction
• Friday: Dora's reaction

Called it

Dora showing up at the hospital, instead of just talking to Hanners on the phone, shows that she cares. Also, she realizes that it is not a good idea to visit Faye just now, and it is better to let Marten and Hanners handle the situation. She probably feels shitty, but at the same time she must do what she thinks is best for her business, and that is not taking Faye back. I do not really like Dora, but I feel her pain.

[Oilman]

Getting back on track, Boss Dora would have done much better to simply send FAYE home, and tell her to come back tomorrow; THEN fire her in an orderly manner, for cause

[Nyithra]

God I am so incredibly sad.

Also I don't blame Dora for not wanting to see Faye in the hospital. She is probably feeling incredibly guilty at this point and doesn't want to risk making things worse.

[BenRG]

I don't think Dora could feel any more shitty about how things have turned out if she tried.

As I said before, I don't think she intended for this to happen when she fired Faye, I think she just hoped that it would be a shock to Faye's system yes, but one that would wake her up to the fact that she had stepped over the line with her being drunk/drinking on the job, especially as she had shown enough faith in Faye to move her up to Assistant Manager.

She probably feels lower than Dogshit right now, and is unsure about going to see Faye due to what happened.

Finally someone else gets it!

Dora feels horribly guilty right now. Look at her body language. No-one has to blame her; she blames herself! It would be entirely in-character for her to now isolate herself, wall off her emotions and refuse to talk to anyone about how this is affecting her; not Tai, not anyone. She'll go into an internalised guilt spiral, start lashing out and probably end up breaking down in the presence of someone unexpected.

The cure is for her and Faye to talk and say 'sorry' to each other. Unfortunately, neither of them are ready for that yet.

[dsvella]

Just throwing in my 2p for what it’s worth (about 3 cents):

I just don’t get the anti-Dora sentiment, honestly I can't see this supposed 'villain' that everyone else sees. I see a person who has their flaws but is reasonable and compassionate.
You can tell from today’s strip that she thinks this whole thing is shitty and she doesn't like it but she took stock of her options and did what she thought was best.

All in all I think she is a good character & and if I must have a problem with anyone on the cast I would choose Emily only because I don’t think someone that "random" could exist.

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[Omega Entity]

I don't think Dora could feel any more shitty about how things have turned out if she tried.

As I said before, I don't think she intended for this to happen when she fired Faye, I think she just hoped that it would be a shock to Faye's system yes, but one that would wake her up to the fact that she had stepped over the line with her being drunk/drinking on the job, especially as she had shown enough faith in Faye to move her up to Assistant Manager.

She probably feels lower than Dogshit right now, and is unsure about going to see Faye due to what happened.

Finally someone else gets it!

Dora feels horribly guilty right now. Look at her body language. No-one has to blame her; she blames herself! It would be entirely in-character for her to now isolate herself, wall off her emotions and refuse to talk to anyone about how this is affecting her; not Tai, not anyone. She'll go into an internalised guilt spiral, start lashing out and probably end up breaking down in the presence of someone unexpected.

The cure is for her and Faye to talk and say 'sorry' to each other. Unfortunately, neither of them are ready for that yet.

Nah, I got that too. I just sucked at putting it into words, and/or it got lost in all the other bullshit I was spouting.

[Zalder]

I wanna go all Good Will Hunting and hug Dora while repeating "It's not your fault".  She obviously feels tremendously shitty right now.

[Is it cold in here?]

This may be the best approach available for a business without an HR department.

[MrNumbers]

Dora feels horribly guilty right now. Look at her body language. No-one has to blame her; she blames herself! It would be entirely in-character for her to now isolate herself, wall off her emotions and refuse to talk to anyone about how this is affecting her; not Tai, not anyone. She'll go into an internalised guilt spiral, start lashing out and probably end up breaking down in the presence of someone unexpected.

The cure is for her and Faye to talk and say 'sorry' to each other. Unfortunately, neither of them are ready for that yet.

I think Tai is probably the best possible partner for her in this situation.

If anyone has a chance of getting her out of that internal spiral and getting her to be proactive, it's our little lesbian librarian (say that ten times fast).

She's done it before when they got together, remember? Tai knows how Dora thinks and has proven, before, to be very good at wedging a crowbar into just the right place to crack her open in a way that makes Dora grateful rather than resentful.

[emilygrrl]

WHAAAAT. You mean I have to wait all weekend to find out what happened with Pint-Size???

[Oilman]

Dora feels horribly guilty right now. Look at her body language. No-one has to blame her; she blames herself! It would be entirely in-character for her to now isolate herself, wall off her emotions and refuse to talk to anyone about how this is affecting her; not Tai, not anyone. She'll go into an internalised guilt spiral, start lashing out and probably end up breaking down in the presence of someone unexpected.

The cure is for her and Faye to talk and say 'sorry' to each other. Unfortunately, neither of them are ready for that yet.

I think Tai is probably the best possible partner for her in this situation.

If anyone has a chance of getting her out of that internal spiral and getting her to be proactive, it's our little lesbian librarian (say that ten times fast).

She's done it before when they got together, remember? Tai knows how Dora thinks and has proven, before, to be very good at wedging a crowbar into just the right place to crack her open in a way that makes Dora grateful rather than resentful.

Really? If Tai has done anything except get high and watch children's tv at work, neglect basic responsibilities like training the interns and dealing with Marten's contract of employment, and running around drunk in her underpants (offending Marigold and Faye in the process), somebody remind me what it is?

I'm afraid she strikes me as one if those characters who are too far off the "caricature" end if the spectrum to be credible as a main character

[Lubricus]

WHAAAAT. You mean I have to wait all weekend to find out what happened with Pint-Size???

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the strip, I'm guessing that Pintsize was just turned off, and will be back to normal the next time we see him.

Warning - while you were typing a new Anthro-PC has been turned off. You may wish to review your post.

[BenRG]

@Oilman,

Your problem is that you focus on the overt and miss the subtle. Tai has been fantastic at encouraging Marten to get out of his comfort zone. She is probably one of, if not the most mature character. The fact that the library is so well run that the Trustees are overlooking her... er... eccentricities and the fact she isn't even a student anymore tells you a lot about her professional qualities.

[Akima]

Same goes for Zero Hours Contracts and agency work, an issue inextricably linked with immigration and in many respects, EAW by another name; which the British find deeply unacceptable.

If it's anything like Australia, if they really found it unacceptable, they wouldn't happily lap up the cheap goods and services that near-abusive employment of immigrants delivers to them. "They're stealing our jobs!", they say. Sure, like they'd want to work those hours, in those conditions, for that pay, but they're happy enough to consume the end product. Pardon me while I go and find a bucket.

Poor Dora. Nobody ever said that doing the right thing would make you happy.

[hedgie]

I don't know if Dora did the "right" thing, just the necessary one.  It's still rather painful to see, all around.

[Oilman]

Same goes for Zero Hours Contracts and agency work, an issue inextricably linked with immigration and in many respects, EAW by another name; which the British find deeply unacceptable.

If it's anything like Australia, if they really found it unacceptable, they wouldn't happily lap up the cheap goods and services that near-abusive employment of immigrants delivers to them. "They're stealing our jobs!", they say. Sure, like they'd want to work those hours, in those conditions, for that pay, but they're happy enough to consume the end product.

Poor Dora. Nobody ever said that doing the right thing would make you happy.

Unfortunately the UK isn't Australia. The Trades Union movement badly overplayed their hand in the 1970s and 1980s and the political outcome was a fight to the finish which left them prostrate, and the economy on the path to ruin.

Are you seriously suggesting Australia has no problems with immigration ?

[Orkboy]

Are you seriously suggesting Australia has no problems with immigration ?

Yeah, all those British convicts showed up and ruined the whole place. 

[Oilman]

@Oilman,

Your problem is that you focus on the overt and miss the subtle. Tai has been fantastic at encouraging Marten to get out of his comfort zone. She is probably one of, if not the most mature character. The fact that the library is so well run that the Trustees are overlooking her... er... eccentricities and the fact she isn't even a student anymore tells you a lot about her professional qualities.

No, disagree. I know plenty of people who are highly competent prifessionally, but deeply dysfunctional or plain horrible as people

Marten was a good-hearted, under-achieving doormat on day one and still appears to be one

[bartman]

Shitty is pulling Hannelore into it. She has a gazillion anxiety disorders and isn't that close to Faye.

That could have been done better, no doubt there, though I think Hanners does feel close enough to Faye - she felt close enough to be there waiting for Faye to wake up, with Marten, after all.

Marten would have made more sense to talk to as he's been very close with both of them and handles this stuff way better.

But Marten wasn't there, and arguably doesn't need to be involved in CoD business at all. As for texting Faye or marching in there to tell her face to face, those are also inappropriate. Sometimes there just isn't a "good" way to do something, but you still have to do it.

I'm afraid she strikes me as one if those characters who are too far off the "caricature" end if the spectrum to be credible as a main character

I think Tai was a flanderization* of herself to begin with. Not sure that's entirely fair now. I would say her character got rounded out as she got promoted from Marten's boss to full member of the cast with 'dating other cast members' rights.

* http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

Warning - while you were typing 3 new replies have been posted. You may wish to settle in for a long day.

[Japheree]

Marten was a good-hearted, under-achieving doormat on day one and still appears to be one

A happy one though. Who the hell cares about being an underachiever if you are happy. I was miserable for years as an overachieving stressed out borderline alcoholic. Now I am probably an underachiever (my job certainly doesn't use my qualifications to their full) but I am a whole lot happier.

Life isn't just about achieving stuff. It is more about being fulfilled.

With reference to Dora. She just goes up in my estimation. Did the hard thing but the right thing despite feeling guilty (and didn't go back on it).  Also recognised that being overly punitive by denying insurance to Faye would only make the situation worse. I realise that shielding drunks from the consequences of their actions can be a bad thing but I am not convinced Faye is so far down that road that she needed that kind of crap that a huge bill for medical bills would give her.

[Oilman]

.... but see Slartibartfast's conversation with Arthur Dent on the subject of being happy. Interestingly enough this is one if the few scenes to appear in all versions of Hitch Hikers Guide, which must prove something?

[NilsO]

Shitty is pulling Hannelore into it. She has a gazillion anxiety disorders and isn't that close to Faye. Marten would have made more sense to talk to as he's been very close with both of them and handles this stuff way better.

Hanners and Faye have interacted a lot, and I would assume Hanners considers Faye a close friend. Marigold, Marten, and Momo are her other close friends (and Winslow is of course her companion).

It is probably not good to let Hanners act as Dora's messenger, but as Marten was not there, I guess Dora should not be critisized much for this. But Dora should have told Hanners to take a vacation, so she can take care of Faye. Dora probably has problems with the CoD work schedule now that Faye is fired, but as Hanners has not a full time job, and Dale is happy for extra work, this is probably solvable, at least if Dora steps in with extra hours herself.

[Akima]

Are you seriously suggesting Australia has no problems with immigration?

There are certainly plenty of people who say we do. It invariably turns out that they only have problems with immigrants who are not white; ones like me and my family. They are not my friends.

[hedgie]

Are you seriously suggesting Australia has no problems with immigration ?

Yeah, all those British convicts showed up and ruined the whole place.

They were lucky that they only got the convicts.  The US was stuck with the Puritans.

[kurayami]

Are you seriously suggesting Australia has no problems with immigration ?

Clearly offtopic for a moment: Australia has some serious immigration issues, what with the serious breaches of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the Covenant of Civil and Political Rights and the Covenant on the Social, Economic and Cultural Rights, not to mention breaching the UN Refugee Convention and the UN Rights of the Child. All of which Australia are signed and ratified, which means that the Australian Government is legally required to adhere to those standards of the maintenance of human rights by international law. The current policy of offshore mandatory detention for refugees (including children) arriving by boat, and then sticking them on Temporary Protection Visas (TPV) after their asylum claim is processed is awful, because on a TPV, a refugee can't seek work for two years and are only eligible for social security benefits up to the equivalent of 80% of what Australian citizens receive on unemployment benefits. So your average TVP recipient gets $206 per week to subsist on.

On topic: It seems to me that Dora did the best thing for Faye that she could. How long can you enable an alcoholic for? Until they seriously hurt themselves or someone else? Faye needs some serious help to get her drinking (and her impulse control) sorted out. I'm really enjoying this storyline. I can't wait to see how it pans out. Maybe Angus will come back?

[BenRG]

No, disagree. I know plenty of people who are highly competent prifessionally, but deeply dysfunctional or plain horrible as people

Marten was a good-hearted, under-achieving doormat on day one and still appears to be one

I don't know what comic you're reading, Oilman, but it isn't the same one as me. I think that your essential negativity and your subconscious urge to disapprove of the strip is contaminating and warping your perception of the characters.