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Whatever happened to Pintsize?

41 (37.6%)

Faye's story v.2.0.?

21 (19.3%)

Student, Girlfriend, Librarian or some combination of all three? Claire's Dilemma?

11 (10.1%)

How do you come back from firing your best friend?

20 (18.3%)

Something completely new (give your idea in a comment, plz)?

0 (0%)

"Marten, how would you feel about having three dads?"

16 (14.7%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Voting closed: 04 Feb 2015, 06:23

[Mr. Black Licorice]

Could Marten get any more empty as a character? I mean, the guy's been presented as a straight man (as in the archetype) and a straight man (as in the sexuality) for the entirety of the comic, and now he's suddenly down with dating a transgendered person, which happens to come right around the time that trans* issues are gaining real traction in the social justice community? Come on. I've dated a trans*person in the past, and the first time we got naked, it was treated with much more dignity and care than it was given here. "You're beautiful"? I'll take Things That a 16 Year Old Says When Losing His Virginity for $200, Alex. This is just empty pandering.

A) Sexuality exists along a spectrum: it's called the Kinsey Scale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale/ ... However, even this does not completely represent the full complexity of human sexuality. It's not straight or gay, or even straight, bi, or gay; it just is.

B) Simplicity is more emotionally evocative than flowery language. Ernest Hemingway once said "Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use.”

C) Empty Pandering? When did web comics become a pissing contest for hipsters? Do I get bonus points for saying "I was trans* friendly before it was cool?" Come on!

[bhtooefr]

You know, I wonder if this was foreshadowing for something. Were the "mistakes" being actions that sent Faye even deeper into her slide, or were the "mistakes" something that we haven't seen on screen yet?

[swapna]

Could Marten get any more empty as a character? I mean, the guy's been presented as a straight man (as in the archetype) and a straight man (as in the sexuality) for the entirety of the comic, and now he's suddenly down with dating a transgendered person, which happens to come right around the time that trans* issues are gaining real traction in the social justice community? Come on. I've dated a trans*person in the past, and the first time we got naked, it was treated with much more dignity and care than it was given here. "You're beautiful"? I'll take Things That a 16 Year Old Says When Losing His Virginity for $200, Alex. This is just empty pandering.

A) Sexuality exists along a spectrum: it's called the Kinsey Scale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale/ ... However, even this does not completely represent the full complexity of human sexuality. It's not straight or gay, or even straight, bi, or gay; it just is.

[Edited for length]

True, and at the moment, Marten seems very comfortable with his sexuality, but it's not always been displayed that way. A few months prior, while he was still dating Dora, he was certainly not OK with dating a transgendered Person: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=615
Even in jest, that's a very hurtful comment to make, and for Marten it's just been a few months (I've scanned AprilArcus' wonderful timeline, and as far as I can see, it's maybe 6+ months). This is not the only time he displayed discomfort with people who's visible gender might not always be the same: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=457

[bhtooefr]

People's opinions on that can change, too, you know. Surprisingly quickly, if there's the right catalyst.

It's also worth noting that Tai was a student at Smif at least as of 1933, which was an end-of-semester party. (Or, 726 at the very least, because Tai was still living in the dorms then.) She graduated a year prior to 2787. This means that it's quite a long longer than 6 months - even longer than a year, actually - since Marten made that comment to Dora in 615.

[Zebediah]

You know, I wonder if this was foreshadowing for something. Were the "mistakes" being actions that sent Faye even deeper into her slide, or were the "mistakes" something that we haven't seen on screen yet?

I'm fairly certain this was just a punch line.

[Gladstone]

Gosh, how dare Marten grow and change and mature as a person, and adapt as he learns new information about himself and others.  It just ain't right.

[swapna]

He may. I was just pointing out why coming to the conclusion that he did completely change his mind without outside indication is a little out of character.

[BenRG]

You know, I wonder if this was foreshadowing for something. Were the "mistakes" being actions that sent Faye even deeper into her slide, or were the "mistakes" something that we haven't seen on screen yet?

It's possible to over-interpret that moment. In any case, to me, Claire was worried that a drunk Marten and a drunk Faye might do something stupid in a moment of loneliness when their defences were weak. I'm pretty sure that is why she went back to the apartment with them - to act as a chaperone. She never expected that the person Marten was going to try to seduce was her! Of course, in her defence, I'm not even sure Marten knew that at that point.

He may. I was just pointing out why coming to the conclusion that he did completely change his mind without outside indication is a little out of character.

Really, that was just a laddish quip, offered on the spur of the moment when ignorant. However, he now knows a trans* and that naturally should be expected to have altered his perceptions on the whole issue, especially as he's clearly been wrestling with an affection for her since the Post-Wedding Snuggle.

[jwhouk]

Jeph's handled that - but in another context, and with another character.

Actually, that's pretty much a summary of what Jeph's screed was about.

[valkygrrl]

C) Empty Pandering? When did web comics become a pissing contest for hipsters? Do I get bonus points for saying "I was trans* friendly before it was cool?" Come on!

Well it is all popular now. That's why I'm anti-trans, that way no one can accuse me of being trendy.

[de_la_Nae]

Damned straight, transmissions are the devil!

That's what we're talking about right?

p.s. 'just as it's gaining traction in social justice' blah blah blah I've been in the trenches of the Internet too long to readily take him at arguing in good faith with that sentence.

[bhtooefr]

For all we know, Quantifiable Concerns had an arc where Clarissa came out as trans, and Marten got an education from the forums, which then resulted in him re-evaluating everything, especially after he realized that he might like Claire.

[Mr. Black Licorice]

C) Empty Pandering? When did web comics become a pissing contest for hipsters? Do I get bonus points for saying "I was trans* friendly before it was cool?" Come on!

Well it is all popular now. That's why I'm anti-trans, that way no one can accuse me of being trendy.

You are so behind the curve; post anti-trans is the thing now... and don't make me explain it to you - you wouldn't understand. 
*snaps in a z formation*

[TheEvilDog]

At this stage in the thread, I'm currently at:

[AprilArcus]

True, and at the moment, Marten seems very comfortable with his sexuality, but it's not always been displayed that way. A few months prior, while he was still dating Dora, he was certainly not OK with dating a transgendered Person: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=615
Even in jest, that's a very hurtful comment to make, and for Marten it's just been a few months (I've scanned AprilArcus' wonderful timeline, and as far as I can see, it's maybe 6+ months). This is not the only time he displayed discomfort with people who's visible gender might not always be the same: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=457

My timeline doesn't go back that far yet; my guess is that 615 is set something like 18 months before the current strips. I made a long post about the gradual queering of Marten's cultural baseline back in October that I think is still a good read for the Marten-is-too-straight-for-Claire skeptics.

I talked to a few of my IRL friends about the whole Claire-stripping-in-front-of-Marten thing and we all agree that it feels really off-key and totally unlike how we relate to relaxed, friendly, Marten-ish boys in practice.

The only way I can get my head around it is by reminding myself that Claire is not very much like me — she's a virginal mess of stress and anxiety and frustration, and this strip is (maybe?) taking place in the way-less-trans-friendly mid-2000s. So maybe I could imagine it happening? In any case, the drama of her heightened emotions present a weird contradiction that forces me to be a little creative in my reading of the character, which isn't terrible.

[kerky]

This is an AnthroPC Marten-Bot running "I AM A PERFECT BOYFRIEND.EXE" v. 2.0.

Hm, maybe Marten never came back from the Space Station? Maybe just an Anthro-PC lookalike of him came back to Earth from that trip, they are keeping him in permanent stasis up there because the blood samples Hannelore had analyzed have lead the scientists to find out that due to a peculiar genetic constellation he will be the only human that will survive time-travelling into the past to warn Dr. Ellicot-Chatham that him developing AI to a whole new level will eventually destroy all of humanity?

[BenRG]

The only way I can get my head around it is by reminding myself that Claire is not very much like me — she's a virginal mess of stress and anxiety and frustration...

I think that this is a key point: Claire seems to have been generally under-socialised at the point she started out as an Intern. She has no friends out side of the Library/CoD circles that we know about. Lacking previous close friendships means that she, at best, can sometimes only guess about appropriate behaviour based on others' actions. I suspect that she probably doesn't have anyone fully reliable to turn to in romance issues (not with the possible exception of her mother). Because of  this, her behaviours will sometimes be eccentric to the objective eye.

In any case, I still think that her key motivator was her body image issues. She isn't confident in her appearance and she had to get this out of the way and on her own terms.

[AprilArcus]

I think that this is a key point: Claire seems to have been generally under-socialised at the point she started out as an Intern. She has no friends out side of the Library/CoD circles that we know about. Lacking previous close friendships means that she, at best, can sometimes only guess about appropriate behaviour based on others' actions. I suspect that she probably doesn't have anyone fully reliable to turn to in romance issues (not with the possible exception of her mother). Because of  this, her behaviours will sometimes be eccentric to the objective eye.

How much of that do we chalk up to her having a difficult, socially isolating transition during her freshman/sophomore years, and how much to other factors? It's hard to imagine making it through four years of college (and a couple years of grad school?) without making at least a few close friends. Clinton definitely seems a little bit ASD; I wonder if Claire has some of those traits too.

[Neko_Ali]

It's pretty hard to tell. I have always been a pretty quiet and reserved person with not that many friends my entire life, long before I realized I was trans, or had any idea that being transgender was a thing. Body image issues, which I did have as a teen, can only explain some of that. A large part was my upbringing... Moving around a lot I was always the outsider in school. My emotionally and mentally abusive father is another, possibly the biggest factor in my lack of confidence in dealing with other people. We can't say these sorts of things apply to Claire. And are probably over thinking things anyway. (On this forum? Say it isn't so...) But we have seen that she doesn't have any friends outside of the group and her family. In the beginning she was really wound up tight. Since she's started hanging out with the cast she's mellowed out quite a bit... but old issues just don't go away. And yes, for most trans people that I've known the 'getting naked first time with your partner' is a big thing, even if they already know and have said they are okay with it.

[BenRG]

I think that this is a key point: Claire seems to have been generally under-socialised at the point she started out as an Intern. She has no friends out side of the Library/CoD circles that we know about.

How much of that do we chalk up to her being trans and how much to other factors? It's hard to imagine making it through four years of college (and a couple years of grad school?) without making at least a few close friends. Clinton definitely seems a little bit ASD; I wonder if Claire has some of those traits too.

I'd only be guessing but it is possible to spend years around people and only develop acquaintances rather than friendships. Some of it, at least, would be due to he trans status and possible fears for her safety. However, as a resident of Northampton, it is possible that she was never a resident student at Smif, enabling her to have less close interaction with her classmates that would have been if she'd been living in the halls of residence. This would inadvertently probably somewhat inhibit her making peer group connections.

(BTW - I know that some colleges insist that freshmen live in college dorms and then lets them make their own choices from sophomore year onwards but I don't know if it is the case with Smith/Smif.)

[AprilArcus]

If Smif is Smith, she couldn't have been an undergrad there (let alone a resident), since she started her transition during her first year of college and wouldn't have had her paperwork in order as a high school senior to matriculate at a women's college. Her brother is a student at UMass; she probably was too.

[Aziraphale]

Could Marten get any more empty as a character? I mean, the guy's been presented as a straight man (as in the archetype) and a straight man (as in the sexuality) for the entirety of the comic, and now he's suddenly down with dating a transgendered person, which happens to come right around the time that trans* issues are gaining real traction in the social justice community? Come on. I've dated a trans*person in the past, and the first time we got naked, it was treated with much more dignity and care than it was given here. "You're beautiful"? I'll take Things That a 16 Year Old Says When Losing His Virginity for $200, Alex. This is just empty pandering.

Also, this is wrong. As in counter factual. As in this description of Marten is not accurate.

"Straight" is a construct. What defines straight really depends on who you ask. I'm sure there's a bi person somewhere who finds the application of that fact terribly hypocritical. So, what straight means to Marten is up to... Marten. (Well, Jeph. But I repeat myself.)

<snip>
Whatever's going down can be straight by whatever definition Marten uses. (As an aside, I found this comment no less clangy than those implying Marten might be fluid because of his mom's job. I didn't just make up this stuff about the artifice of straight for this comment, so the idea that Marten's personal view on the matter needs a justification is kind of a drop... on the head.)

<further snip>

Bucky:
GET A GRIP, MAN!

(You may, if you'd like, read the preceding in the voice of Powdered Toast Man)

RF: Okay, maybe not fluidity, since you find that "clangy". How about openness, at the very least? Various... possibilities have been hinted around on the forums, to varying degrees of tact, for quite some time now. It seems to me to be a bit silly that those same things wouldn't already have occurred to Marten, and that he wouldn't have thought them through. Having thought them through, he may also have decided that he doesn't quite give a shit, and will take things as they come... an attitude, as we've seen a million or so times before in QC, that's far from being out of character. Does it need clarification? Not particularly. What he and Claire do or don't get up to is their business, not ours. But it seems a bit off somehow to think that the straightness you've already acknowledged as a construct is somehow more valid than the possibility that he's either decided that construct has outlived its usefulness, or that he'll just go and construct his own construct.

[Penquin47]

I think that this is a key point: Claire seems to have been generally under-socialised at the point she started out as an Intern. She has no friends out side of the Library/CoD circles that we know about. Lacking previous close friendships means that she, at best, can sometimes only guess about appropriate behaviour based on others' actions. I suspect that she probably doesn't have anyone fully reliable to turn to in romance issues (not with the possible exception of her mother). Because of  this, her behaviours will sometimes be eccentric to the objective eye.

How much of that do we chalk up to her having a difficult, socially isolating transition during her freshman/sophomore years, and how much to other factors? It's hard to imagine making it through four years of college (and a couple years of grad school?) without making at least a few close friends. Clinton definitely seems a little bit ASD; I wonder if Claire has some of those traits too.

I made it through 4 years of high school and 5 and a half years of college without making any close friends.  I am not trans*, but I do have serious body image issues and moderate to severe anxiety and depression.  I don't think Claire has depression, but we know she has anxiety.  Between the transition and the anxiety, I can see her not keeping in touch with high school friends and not making college friends pretty easily.

[Skewbrow]

In any case, I still think that her key motivator was her body image issues. She isn't confident in her appearance and she had to get this out of the way and on her own terms.

I agree with this - as do apparently very many of us. I'm unable do any kind of deep analysis on it so I won't even try.

I would like to compare the approaches the two characters with severe body/self image issues took to their first times getting intimate with someone else. Marigold more or less opted to dive in. Head first. Pancakes and syrup for dessert. Here we have Claire with her special interlude.

Clearly both of them wanted to proceed on their own terms. I also think both of them planned events ahead of time. May be not a detailed script but a general plan was there.  Marigold's forwardness may have taken some by surprise, but my guess is that she was planning on it, which is why she war so nervous that the hives broke out (sorry about acting Capt'n obvious here - I am slow). Also both had have very little social experience. Romantic in particular.

Differences between them? Relatively little I think? May be the characters in Jeph's head told him that this is how they will act?

Afterwards Marigold turned to Momo to reflect on her second thoughts. Who will Claire turn to?

[AprilArcus]

Afterwards Marigold turned to Momo to reflect on her second thoughts. Who will Claire turn to?

Emily, of course. I see real potential for Claire/Hanners and Claire/Tai (oh god) to be interesting character dynamics, but for whatever reason Jeph hasn't developed them yet.

[DSL]

Here's a really wild thought that's going to melt a lot of heads: Wait and see what Jeph does with the comic.

[cesium133]

Here's a really wild thought that's going to melt a lot of heads: Wait and see what Jeph does with the comic.

That seems morbid.

edit -- Well, this makes a lot less sense after you corrected the typo.

[DSL]

Yeah, I saw that just as I hit post.

[vforvancouver]

Could Marten get any more empty as a character? I mean, the guy's been presented as a straight man (as in the archetype) and a straight man (as in the sexuality) for the entirety of the comic, and now he's suddenly down with dating a transgendered person[...]

[Edited for length]

True, and at the moment, Marten seems very comfortable with his sexuality, but it's not always been displayed that way. A few months prior, while he was still dating Dora, he was certainly not OK with dating a transgendered Person: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=615
Even in jest, that's a very hurtful comment to make, and for Marten it's just been a few months (I've scanned AprilArcus' wonderful timeline, and as far as I can see, it's maybe 6+ months). This is not the only time he displayed discomfort with people who's visible gender might not always be the same: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=457

Curiously, in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=615 the relevant part for Marten is:

No, see, the way my life works is you'd wait until after we had sex to tell me that. You know, let me get the full afterglow going before you shatter my mind.

For him, it is not knowing things beforehand what is wrong. He knew about Claire being trans, processed that fact with pancakes, and then he decided he still wanted to have a relationship. Or at least try.

[kerky]

Hello all,

I hope this is OK and not out of place in the WCDT, else would the mods be so kind as to move it to the "T"-thread. I also don´t know what the banmageddon was all about, but I will stick to what *I* see in the latest comic.

I personally think panel 3 gets as close as possible to answering "Teh Question That Must Not Be Asked"

Please, and this again goes for the mods and also people who read this forum and who I know have special sensitivity issues around this subject: I am not making a statement how things are supposed to be, or, behold, of right or wrong. I am just giving my personal opinion and reading of Claire´s expression in that panel which is, after all, part of the comic.

[Is it cold in here?]

Panel 3 was a deft touch on Jeph's part. It answered the legitimate plot questions of "How will Claire handle anxiety?" and "Is Marten as open-minded as he thinks he is?". It scrupulously avoided all the things we have to learn not to ask about trans people.

If this has been a story of Marten overcoming a hangup, that's in character for Marten, consistent with some of the major themes of the strip, and inspiring.

(The rain of tungsten rods from orbit a while back was to deal with people who made "assume good faith" untenable. Honest mistakes will be treated as honest mistakes.)

[ReindeerFlotilla]

RF: Okay, maybe not fluidity, since you find that "clangy".

I don't find applying labels to Marten clangy. I find the need to justify his choices by appealing to his childhood clangy. As in, nobody is appealing to Faye's childhood to justify her straightness.

If there's nothing special, on a fundamental level, about being trans--if there's nothing special about being attracted to and romantically engaged with a trans person--then there's no more need to appeal to explanation with regard to Marten's sexuality than there is for Dora's, or Tai's, or Steve's, or Faye's...

Hello all,

I hope this is OK and not out of place in the WCDT, else would the mods be so kind as to move it to the "T"-thread. I also don´t know what the banmageddon was all about, but I will stick to what *I* see in the latest comic.

I personally think panel 3 gets as close as possible to answering "Teh Question That Must Not Be Asked"

Please, and this again goes for the mods and also people who read this forum and who I know have special sensitivity issues around this subject: I am not making a statement how things are supposed to be, or, behold, of right or wrong. I am just giving my personal opinion and reading of Claire´s expression in that panel which is, after all, part of the comic.

It's probably not Kosher, but that's not going to stop it happening. I said earlier that Jeph implies the answer to the question here, but the implication is not an answer. No matter what the truth is, Claire's actions and reactions make sense. What you think the implications are is just a matter of your own head canon. Nothing in the strip supports one interpretation over another.

The fact that the strip can be legitimately read to mean whatever the reader wants was the reason I expected a bannedammerung to follow.

I'm pleasantly surprised by this and the lack of outright hate.

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

I think the first few rounds of bannings from earlier arcs probably got all the people who were going to go that route.

[Neko_Ali]

I think the first few rounds of bannings from earlier arcs probably got all the people who were going to go that route.

Indeed. Claire coming out to Marten probably caught people who have issues with trans people off guard. And as I remember about that time the comic made a bit of news because of Claire's coming out. So that would draw in people who feel the need to troll anything trans positive. At this point now, it's a well established fact, so it wouldn't draw as much attention and anybody who's still here has accepted at least the fact that Claire is trans and she and Marten are dating. So not a big a reaction for this event.

[Aimless]

True, and at the moment, Marten seems very comfortable with his sexuality, but it's not always been displayed that way. A few months prior, while he was still dating Dora, he was certainly not OK with dating a transgendered Person: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=615
Even in jest, that's a very hurtful comment to make, and for Marten it's just been a few months (I've scanned AprilArcus' wonderful timeline, and as far as I can see, it's maybe 6+ months). This is not the only time he displayed discomfort with people who's visible gender might not always be the same: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=457

Do you think perhaps Jeph may have changed a lot in the time since that comic was written? Do you think Jeph's changes may in some way influence Marten's character and the way the comic is written?

[Aimless]

I personally think panel 3 gets as close as possible to answering "Teh Question That Must Not Be Asked"

Please, and this again goes for the mods and also people who read this forum and who I know have special sensitivity issues around this subject: I am not making a statement how things are supposed to be, or, behold, of right or wrong. I am just giving my personal opinion and reading of Claire´s expression in that panel which is, after all, part of the comic.

I dunno. If you're saying what I think you're saying, I think you're reading too much into the artwork in that panel. If you mean something else, then maybe

[explicit]

I mean, he didn't seem completely against the idea (the drag queen part could be cause they were a lot older than him and the Dora page would have been more extreme surprise than anything else).

But people can change over time, Marten didn't have to be okay with it a year ago, he can grow as a person. For instance, I was completely against the idea of dating a transgender person but now it doesn't seem so far-fetched anymore. Because, you know, learning. Learning is great.

[TieDyeKat]

I can't.  I tried putting them in one time, and my eye felt like it was on fire for the next several hours, even after I got the damn thing back out.
Regarding Lasik, I personally possess an unholy (and irrational) terror regarding surgeries of literally any sort whatsoever (except dental surgery, for some peculiar reason), even down to such exceedingly minor procedures as pierced earlobes (I am one of two people I know who have no tattoos or piercings of any sort, and the other one is deciding what tattoo to get when he has some spare cash).

I also lack any piercings or tattoos.  I'm very indecisive.

[Cochise]

Yeah, I hate puppies. 
And like all western narrative, I think a story needs conflict (not suffering, but conflict). So at this moment I'm more interested in Faye than Claire and Marten.
I wish them luck, (I'm not a heartless bastard) but the more catching story now is not about these two.

I can see Sven trying to hit Faye now, and I can't see Faye and Angus patching up what was done. The Coffee of Doom will never be the same.

[Aziraphale]

RF: Okay, maybe not fluidity, since you find that "clangy".

I don't find applying labels to Marten clangy. I find the need to justify his choices by appealing to his childhood clangy. As in, nobody is appealing to Faye's childhood to justify her straightness.

If there's nothing special, on a fundamental level, about being trans--if there's nothing special about being attracted to and romantically engaged with a trans person--then there's no more need to appeal to explanation with regard to Marten's sexuality than there is for Dora's, or Tai's, or Steve's, or Faye's...

Second point first: I don't think it necessarily needs to be explained (as I mentioned). That's their business, not ours. To your first point... No, you wouldn't look to Faye's childhood for clues about her approach to her sexuality. But if you were talking about her trust issues? Her alcoholism? At least one, maybe two, suicide attempts? Her casual disrespect for boundaries? The (thankfully toned down) violence? It'd be silly not to. Ditto, say, Hanners' issues, or Dora's complicated relationship with her brother and her parents (among other things). In other words, when a character's perception, attitudes and actions are clearly influenced by their past, it can be useful to examine that past and how it colors the present, and that's something that isn't in any way exclusive to sexuality. If we were talking about, say, Marten's taste in beer, then I'd agree with you that it's silly (unless there's some heretofore unexplored link between a spanking and a ten-minute IPA, in which case I take that back). But we're not, and to think that he'd have grown up around the kinds of people he did would have no impact on how he thinks about Claire seems to me a bit short-sighted.

[swapna]

True, and at the moment, Marten seems very comfortable with his sexuality, but it's not always been displayed that way. A few months prior, while he was still dating Dora, he was certainly not OK with dating a transgendered Person: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=615
Even in jest, that's a very hurtful comment to make, and for Marten it's just been a few months (I've scanned AprilArcus' wonderful timeline, and as far as I can see, it's maybe 6+ months). This is not the only time he displayed discomfort with people who's visible gender might not always be the same: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=457

Do you think perhaps Jeph may have changed a lot in the time since that comic was written? Do you think Jeph's changes may in some way influence Marten's character and the way the comic is written?

Yeah, probably he did. (Good thing, too). And while that's certainly the reason why Marten's so educated and reasonable right now, Marten's reasons don't show up in the narrative. Yes, you don't have to show everything, but we got like 10 strips of cutesy ice-cream-eating Marten/Claire. There would have been enough room.

[DSL]

I'd argue we've been watching mopey Marten grow into this Marten for the whole run of the comic. I've seen plenty of development.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

RF: Okay, maybe not fluidity, since you find that "clangy".

I don't find applying labels to Marten clangy. I find the need to justify his choices by appealing to his childhood clangy. As in, nobody is appealing to Faye's childhood to justify her straightness.

If there's nothing special, on a fundamental level, about being trans--if there's nothing special about being attracted to and romantically engaged with a trans person--then there's no more need to appeal to explanation with regard to Marten's sexuality than there is for Dora's, or Tai's, or Steve's, or Faye's...

Second point first: I don't think it necessarily needs to be explained (as I mentioned). That's their business, not ours. To your first point... No, you wouldn't look to Faye's childhood for clues about her approach to her sexuality. But if you were talking about her trust issues? Her alcoholism? At least one, maybe two, suicide attempts? Her casual disrespect for boundaries? The (thankfully toned down) violence? It'd be silly not to. Ditto, say, Hanners' issues, or Dora's complicated relationship with her brother and her parents (among other things). In other words, when a character's perception, attitudes and actions are clearly influenced by their past, it can be useful to examine that past and how it colors the present, and that's something that isn't in any way exclusive to sexuality. If we were talking about, say, Marten's taste in beer, then I'd agree with you that it's silly (unless there's some heretofore unexplored link between a spanking and a ten-minute IPA, in which case I take that back). But we're not, and to think that he'd have grown up around the kinds of people he did would have no impact on how he thinks about Claire seems to me a bit short-sighted.

I didn't say anything about no impacts. You seem to be having an argument with someone who isn't here.

What I said was, right or wrong, bucky's questioning of Marten's sexuality was no more  or less clangy than people looking for a reason to justify Marten's sexuality. I'm not saying putting two and two together and getting "fluid," is verboten. But then neither was buckys POV verboten. Just factually incorrect.

All things being equal, given what we know, questions about what Claire has in her pants are valid by your logic. That two and two are present doesn't justify adding them. If Marten represented as a person historically oppressed for his sexuality, discussion about how his mom's job made him queer would definitely be considered bad taste.

My argument is not for "equal rights for straight people."  My argument is that the discussion boils down to "What turned Marten queer?" just using different labels. Given the history of oppression that line of thinking has created, I find the discussion to be in bad taste.

[Rghfrgl]

and now he's suddenly down with dating a transgendered person, which happens to come right around the time that trans* issues are gaining real traction in the social justice community? Come on [snip] This is just empty pandering.

I don't think Jeph panders to social justice, because he's been for it before it was really a thing. Way back when Tai would bind her chest Marten asked if he was using the right pronouns. The strip was just a few years old then. Granted there may have been jokes he wouldn't tell today, but on the whole he's been pro lgbt long before it was really a thing that could get him website hits. Even Claire's introduction was probably ahead of that curve.

I don't think he's pandering. But if he *is* it's to the shippers rather than social justice.

[explicit]

Are you suggesting there won't be any more penis jokes in the comic? That's it, it was fun guys, but I'm out.

There will still be butt jokes right? Okay I'm back in.

[bhtooefr]

I don't think he's pandering. But if he *is* it's to the shippers rather than social justice.

In the case of Marten x Claire? Specific story elements, maybe, but I suspect that some relationship between her and a character was going to happen the moment that she was introduced, really, and not for social justice reasons, but because Jeph doesn't seem to want to constantly crap on any character - not even Marten. And, really, who else was it going to be? There's not many male characters in the comic (and Claire's not been depicted as anything other than straight), adding one just to be Claire's love interest would be a bit screwy, and Marten was, I believe, the only single one.

[demency]

I feel like I need to mention, as a trans woman - regardless of what genital configuration Claire may currently have, and regardless of whether or not she plans to some day have bottom surgery - which is, of course, none of our business - she is a *woman*. A man who sleeps with a trans woman in no way, shape, or form stops being straight, *regardless* of the genital configuration of that woman. Whatever she has downstairs, they're a *woman's* genitals, and last I checked, when a man and a woman have sex, that's usually considered pretty straight. Whatever Claire and Marten get up to, unless they invite a third person, it will be straight sex.

Sorry for the whole big speech, I just didn't see anybody getting this point across, and it was really important to me. I get a little militant on that point, because too many men are shamed by their friends and peers, and have their heterosexuality and identity questioned or mocked, if they date or sleep with a trans woman. It not only keeps too many of my sisters cold on lonely nights, it can also be a major driver for violence against us.

[emilygrrl]

Could Marten get any more empty as a character? I mean, the guy's been presented as a straight man (as in the archetype) and a straight man (as in the sexuality) for the entirety of the comic, and now he's suddenly down with dating a transgendered person, which happens to come right around the time that trans* issues are gaining real traction in the social justice community? Come on. I've dated a trans*person in the past, and the first time we got naked, it was treated with much more dignity and care than it was given here. "You're beautiful"? I'll take Things That a 16 Year Old Says When Losing His Virginity for $200, Alex. This is just empty pandering.

So what are you saying, that a straight man can't find a trans woman attractive? Or that a trans woman isn't really a woman, then?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I feel like I need to mention, as a trans woman - regardless of what genital configuration Claire may currently have, and regardless of whether or not she plans to some day have bottom surgery - which is, of course, none of our business - she is a *woman*. A man who sleeps with a trans woman in no way, shape, or form stops being straight, *regardless* of the genital configuration of that woman. Whatever she has downstairs, they're a *woman's* genitals, and last I checked, when a man and a woman have sex, that's usually considered pretty straight. Whatever Claire and Marten get up to, unless they invite a third person, it will be straight sex.

Sorry for the whole big speech, I just didn't see anybody getting this point across, and it was really important to me. I get a little militant on that point, because too many men are shamed by their friends and peers, and have their heterosexuality and identity questioned or mocked, if they date or sleep with a trans woman. It not only keeps too many of my sisters cold on lonely nights, it can also be a major driver for violence against us.

That only works if everyone uses your definition of straight. Not that the world wouldn't be a better place if that was the only definition of straight, but it isn't.

The best metaphor I have right now is if you label a hand gun as a weapon of mass destruction. You might really believe it is just that, but you shouldn't be surprised when the UN Security Council doesn't offer you a permanent seat because you've got one.

Of course, the metaphor breaks down because there's a real, practical difference between a hand gun and a WMD. Where the differences between what straight means to you and the next person are only artifacts of your thought processes. They aren't any more real than the label "straight" is really a thing.

Identity is personal. It's next to meaningless to the rest of the world. This really issue isn't a matter of how you define "woman." I'd say writing it off so simply is unfair to do define their sexuality by genital structure. It suggests that there is something wrong with their sexuality. A person with (literally) no interest is dick isn't going to suddenly gain an interest because a dick's owner identifies as a woman. The same goes for pussy and identification as a man. There are limits.

The issue is, ultimately, that everyone tends to think that their definition of "straight" (Lesbian, gay, bi, queer, trans) is THE definition. Everyone is wrong. There is no one definition. Just seven billion identities in conflict with a handful of false culutral norms.

[Omega Entity]

I don't think he's pandering. But if he *is* it's to the shippers rather than social justice.

[...] but because Jeph doesn't seem to want to constantly crap on any character - not even Marten.

Didn't Jeph say early on that Marten will never be allowed to be happy? Was this akin to a sort of 'mission statement' for the comic, or more of a reflection of his own personal emotional state and how he relates (related?) to Marten as a character?