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[Khazgar]

I've been reading the latest posts with great interest and I felt moved to pull together a lot of what I have read (kudos to the many posters, far too many to link or mention) and my own thoughts. This is my own opinion and is not meant to change anyone's minds or convince anyone that they are wrong and I am right. However I do think that the underlying message of the latest comics has gone under in the lively discussion that we have all been contributing to.
Caution: this is not meant to be taken seriously...except for the last points.


We’ve been seeing a lot of Marten and Claire lately and the forum seems to be divided in its reactions – some of us are loving every strip and others can’t seem to stand the sight of them any more.

So this is addressed to the second group! Feel the squee! Let it inside you! Inhale deeply and let it fill you up!

Why we should love the Marten and Claire loving:

1). It’s cold outside – all the Heartwarming helps to keep us warm.

2). Come on, admit it – they are just so damn cute (especially Claire).

3). What guy hasn’t wanted to date a beautiful redhead? Marten is living out every man’s fantasy and we are all secretly jealous of him.

4). Marten’s laid-backness and supernatural ability to say exactly the right thing is an inspiration to everyone who has ever tried to win a girl’s heart. We should all be taking notes.

5). Remember how it felt when you were in love for the first time? Hold the memory, breathe in deeply, let it out…and feel the ball of ice in your heart melt as you re-read the latest strips.

6). Happy people make other people happy. It’s infectious. Let the love (and the squee) fill your heart. Smile at your husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, at your friends and colleagues, and show them the strips. They will be infected too. If we work hard we can cause an epidemic!

More seriously:

7). QC is not Game of Thrones or some stupid TV soap opera (OMG! Stacy is revealed to be Brad’s best friend’s sister’s mother’s long lost daughter! Come back tomorrow for the next thrilling episode!). QC is a comic about the daily life of its cast, and Marten is arguably the main character in this cast. The most important thing in his life right now is his new relationship with Claire. It’s not high drama, but it is certainly a slice of his life. If you think back to the beginning of an important relationship, it takes over your life for a while (at least until the bluebirds get sore throats). Marten and Claire are in this stage and it’s natural that they are getting a lot of screen time.

8. QC has plenty of drama – I’m sure I don’t need to remind you about Faye’s descent into alcoholic madness. Comic 2883 strongly suggests that her life might have been seriously in danger had Marten not found her and called the medics. And of course all of this happened in the middle of the Marten and Claire relationship arc. We’ve also got a deeply unhappy Dora wondering what is going to happen to her relationship with her best friends, Faye trying to pick up the pieces of her life (and avoid the bottle) as well as the unresolved Sven situation – this has the potential to break apart the group of friends completely if someone says the wrong thing or reacts in the wrong way. Dark times are a comin’ and we might look back to this time as a golden age. And of course, there’s plenty of potential for Marten/Claire drama in the future!

9). People have been criticising the latest Claire and Marten strips as unnecessary, which I can understand “but we know how they feel, why are they saying all of this?” This is true. But, maybe Marten and Claire (particularly Claire) themselves aren’t sure? How often do we seek reassurance from a loved one, even though 99% of us knows that everything is fine? Sometimes we just need to hear someone say “I love you” or “I think your great” or “I’m happy with this relationship”. Marten and Claire are right in the middle of their story and are very subjective. Looking for confirmation in this situation is perfectly normal.

10). They are communicating! And so openly! Seriously, this should be an example to everyone in a relationship. They are being open to each other, expressing their real feelings, not holding anything back, not putting each other under pressure…there’s a huge amount of trust there, and if I’m not mistaken, burgeoning love. Don’t we all wish that we had that kind of relationship with our significant other?

11). As I said in my first post, Marten reminds me of me when I was his age and his character development at the moment should be an example to every twenty-something drifter. He’s taking charge for the first time in his life…and look how happy he is. He’s grown up so much in the last couple of hundred strips and is a better person for it.

And even more seriously…

12). It’s been said many, many times by people far more qualified than me to talk about it, but…Jeph has created a trans character who is neither a cliché nor defined by her state. This is ground breaking. Trans people have to deal with so much prejudice, hate and violence every day, and here is a trans character who still struggles with herself (reference strip 2900) but who has found a partner who is actively happy to be in a relationship with her. Happiness is Claire’s right, just as it is the right of all trans, cis, gay, straight, white, black….in fact, every person. Remember Martin Luther King’s “I have a dream” speech?” Take out the references to race and skin colour and put in “trans” (as well of course gay and all the other labels we call ourselves) and it’s just as relevant to us all today.

I have two small children and I have a dream. I have a dream that my little children will one day live in a world where they, nor anyone else, will neither be judged by the color of their skin, nor their sexuality or how their bodies look, but by the content of their characters.

Jeph is helping to build this dream by writing such an inclusive comic. You may not like the current “couple” arc, and I understand that completely. But step back, think about what he is trying to communicate and applaud the man for his bravery and vision. There is no reason, apart from our own hate and stupidity, that trans people (as well as gays, blacks, women...the list is endless) shouldn’t enjoy the same rights as everyone else. Jeph is trying to make this happen, and we should all support him.



And now some Dora/Sven/Faye drama please, I've had enough of lovey-dovey Claire and Marten for the time being! 

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

You. You keep posting good things. Keep being you.

'Cause I find everything here to be either hilarious or agreeable to me.

[Technoir]

This forum needs a "Like x 1000" button.

 

[Consilium]

A bit dramatic, but well said nonetheless.

[eschaton]

I'm sorry, but asking people to feel the squee is like asking someone to just sit back and enjoy a type of music they don't care for (in my example, Jazz). 

You can't tell someone to feel something, either they do or they don't.  Claire and Marten, as they have acted since the scritch, do absolutely nothing for my heart.  I say this despite Jeph having written several relationship arcs which did actually touch upon things I felt in my own romantic life.  I also say this despite identifying with Marten as a character quite a bit, and liking Claire in the buildup.  I find their interactions alternatively boring and nauseating, and I find nothing cute about it. 

[Mr. Black Licorice]

First of all, I love the thread subject. Good Job.

With that being said, I would like to address everyone who claims that this arc is unrealistic... it's not unrealistic. It's not unrealistic that a new relationship goes wonderfully in the first week; if it didn't, there wouldn't be a second week.

It isn't unrealistic that a new relationship under unusual circumstances start with a lot of open, honest communication. Claire is a trans-person who has never been in a relationship and Martin is a cis-person who has never dated a trans-person. Without communication, both parties would not have been willing to give the relationship a first date.

It's not unrealistic or bad story telling to drive home the point that Claire and Martin are into each other. The first real test of their relationship is yet to rear it's ugly head. Someone within their group of friends is going to find out that Claire is a trans-person and NOT be okay with it. (My bet is on Faye...) This is going to put a lot of strain on their relationship - strain for which neither of them are prepared. We need to see that they are happy together now, so we are emotionally invested and want to see the relationship work.

Finally, I think it would be helpful for everyone to go back to the beginning of this relationship arc and read through it in one sitting. Getting a single strip a day tends to distort the pacing of the story. Seeing them back to back should help you see the story in the pace that it was originally intended.

[eschaton]

First of all, I love the thread subject. Good Job.

With that being said, I would like to address everyone who claims that this arc is unrealistic... it's not unrealistic. It's not unrealistic that a new relationship goes wonderfully in the first week; if it didn't, there wouldn't be a second week.

It isn't unrealistic that a new relationship under unusual circumstances start with a lot of open, honest communication. Claire is a trans-person who has never been in a relationship and Martin is a cis-person who has never dated a trans-person. Without communication, both parties would not have been willing to give the relationship a first date.

It's not unrealistic or bad story telling to drive home the point that Claire and Martin are into each other. The first real test of their relationship is yet to rear it's ugly head. Someone within their group of friends is going to find out that Claire is a trans-person and NOT be okay with it. (My bet is on Faye...) This is going to put a lot of strain on their relationship - strain for which neither of them are prepared. We need to see that they are happy together now, so we are emotionally invested and want to see the relationship work.

Finally, I think it would be helpful for everyone to go back to the beginning of this relationship arc and read through it in one sitting. Getting a single strip a day tends to distort the pacing of the story. Seeing them back to back should help you see the story in the pace that it was originally intended.

The only outright unrealistic thing about their relationship is that how they acted around each other changed so much once they hooked up.  When people who have been friends for awhile become lovers, it's generally a seamless transition, because you skip the whole period where you're "putting on your best face" due to insecurities.  The other person knows who you are, to a great extent, already.  Marten should still stick his foot in his mouth sometimes.  Claire should still fire off zingers at inappropriate times.  The relationship feels like it was "fanficed" because they do not. 

[Mr. Black Licorice]

The only outright unrealistic thing about their relationship is that how they acted around each other changed so much once they hooked up.  When people who have been friends for awhile become lovers, it's generally a seamless transition, because you skip the whole period where you're "putting on your best face" due to insecurities.  The other person knows who you are, to a great extent, already.  Marten should still stick his foot in his mouth sometimes.  Claire should still fire off zingers at inappropriate times.  The relationship feels like it was "fanficed" because they do not.

That's a legitimate criticism. Maybe Jeph is doing that on purpose for some reason... but it is far more likely that he is more focused on writing about a difficult subject tastefully than he is on characterization. I do miss the puns, however...

[Aziraphale]

It's not always seamless, though. I mean, it's not as though you're nothing more than coworkers on Thursday and you wake up married on Friday morning (at least not under normal circumstances). No matter how much you know about someone before getting into a relationship with them, you don't know everything about them. And yes, changing the "status" of the relationship does lead to a bit of a change between the participants; sure, you know the person, but I think you become a bit more conscious about how you treat them and act around them. After all, you've singled out that person as someone who means something different to you than the mass of other people in your life. After a while, people settle back to normal, and I'm sure these two will be no different.

[DrClef]

The only outright unrealistic thing about their relationship is that how they acted around each other changed so much once they hooked up.  When people who have been friends for awhile become lovers, it's generally a seamless transition, because you skip the whole period where you're "putting on your best face" due to insecurities.  The other person knows who you are, to a great extent, already.  Marten should still stick his foot in his mouth sometimes.  Claire should still fire off zingers at inappropriate times.  The relationship feels like it was "fanficed" because they do not.

That's a legitimate criticism. Maybe Jeph is doing that on purpose for some reason... but it is far more likely that he is more focused on writing about a difficult subject tastefully than he is on characterization. I do miss the puns, however...

Which is my personal complaint.

#2901 at least seems to finally be getting back on track.

[Carl-E]

Hey, even the most jocular of us gets serious once in a while...

Claire's punning is a coping mechanism for social situations where she feels some discomfort.  The same's true of Marten's foot-in-mouth disease.  The fact is, they're not all that uncomfortable around each other, and are suddenly talking fluently and freely about issues important to them both. 

We're just not used to seeing that side of them. 


More than likely, neither are they! 

[Pilchard123]

Claire's punning is a coping mechanism for social situations where she feels some discomfort.  The same's true of Marten's foot-in-mouth disease.

I know the feeling...

[BenRG]

Claire's punning is a coping mechanism for social situations where she feels some discomfort.

I'm not sure about that. I just think that she's trying to get a laugh from the crowd but her timing and delivery sucks. Said issues with timing and delivery may be due to social anxiety on her part. The First Date proved that, when more relaxed, Claire's puns flow more smoothly and get a generally better reaction.

Claire's real issue seems to be that she does have a mean streak in her, which is most often directed at Clinton. It isn't so much deliberate malice as it is a lack of thought about how her 'harmless japes' might be received by its target (whom she normally sees as deserving of it in some way anyway). I'm sure that the basically nice Marten will be annoyed by this at some point; it came close to him calling her out over this in Strip 2858.

The same's true of Marten's foot-in-mouth disease.

Again, I'm not sure that's the case. I just think that Marten is one of those earnest, honest souls with poor brain-to-mouth filters. He says what he regards as self-evidently true and only catches up on how others react after the words have left his mouth.

I think that this is the source of the slightly 'unnatural' feel to how he has been talking to Claire - He's aware of this problem and he's sort of trying to test out every phrase and word before it comes out of his mouth because he doesn't want to upset her.

FWIW, Claire has got unfiltered Marten-speech. Specifically, I'm thinking of Strip 2871, where he basically tells her that he thinks she's wrong about libraries and how they should be used. Look at his body language in panel 2 - he's in 'unfiltered musing' mode as is often the case when he puts his foot in his mouth. If he hadn't immediately gone on to address the Easter Condom Hunt before Claire got her wits together, it's not impossible that could have turned into an argument. As matters stand, I think Claire, as she didn't have the chance to make a snap response, was able to realise that, even if she disagrees, his position wasn't unreasonable.

The point that I'm making is neither of them are perfect and two of them have a noticeable flaw that will lead to conflict eventually. I'd also not bother looking for early warning signs because, by their nature, the whole thing will blow up suddenly and without any real precursor.

[Omega Entity]

The only thing I disagree with is that Marten was about to call out Claire on her taunting of her brother. It really reads more to me that he's simply telling both of them that they are, indeed, putting the cart before the horse, and there's nothing in his facial expression that indicates displeasure or censure. Hell, he even -agrees- with Claire the panel before that.

[Rghfrgl]

Claire's punning is a coping mechanism for social situations where she feels some discomfort.

While perhaps they can be used as a bit of stress relief at times I don't think that's the point.

Girl just loves her puns.

[Endellion]

Claire's punning is a coping mechanism for social situations where she feels some discomfort.

While perhaps they can be used as a bit of stress relief at times I don't think that's the point.

It's her way to express her rapier wit.

[DSL]

Claire's punning is a coping mechanism for social situations where she feels some discomfort.

While perhaps they can be used as a bit of stress relief at times I don't think that's the point.

It's her way to express her rapier wit.

Without it, she's en garde all the time.

[jwhouk]

Touche.

[Is it cold in here?]

I see your point.

[cesium133]

DSL's pretty sharp there.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

He did cut to the heart of the matter. That he got right on that might foil anyone else's chances at a sharp pun.

[ASB84]

I'm sorry, but asking people to feel the squee is like asking someone to just sit back and enjoy a type of music they don't care for (in my example, Jazz). 

You can't tell someone to feel something, either they do or they don't.  Claire and Marten, as they have acted since the scritch, do absolutely nothing for my heart.  I say this despite Jeph having written several relationship arcs which did actually touch upon things I felt in my own romantic life.  I also say this despite identifying with Marten as a character quite a bit, and liking Claire in the buildup.  I find their interactions alternatively boring and nauseating, and I find nothing cute about it.

This.

Honestly, this thread just feels like an attempt to say to everyone who isn't loving everything about Claire and Marten so far "you're absolutely wrong, this is fantastic and you should like it, no ifs or buts, quit complaining and enjoy", but in the nicest way possible. And even when expressed in the nicest way possible, it still comes across as a tad condescending.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I just looked over the relationship, and I gotta say, there's not a lot of basis for suggesting either one of them has changed much.

Not that I expect facts to change opinions or anything. It probably just seems like they've changed because They spend a lot of time smiling at each other like idiots.

I think the issues everyone thinks exist as personality change are really just the change in writing style. In trying to be the comic with too few word, QC is often spreading an old comic's worth of interaction over three days. This is causing two issues: First,  the density of quirks per comic is down 67%. Second, the density of punchlines per comic has remained almost constant. The combination of these thing means that there are fewer digressions.

I might, if inspired, do a calculation to compare their dialogue before and after the de-wording later today. If time permits. I suspect it will prove enlightening.

[Khazgar]

As the OP I thought I would weigh in once more before this thread gets swamped under by the events of the coming week's comics.

My arguments (apart from the last one, which I feel quite passionate about) were certainly not meant to be taken seriously, and especially if you got the reference from the thread title (google Peter Sellars and 1964 should you have missed it) I would hope that you understood that my remarks were firmly tongue-in-cheek.

Everyone should have a say and all opinions should be respected, but I think the Claire and Marten argument has turned into a cat lovers vs. dog lovers debate - each side is absolutely convinced that their furry friends are the best pet, they all have thoussands of arguments why this is so and nobody is going to change their opinion.

If you don't like Claire and Marten much or had enough of their relationship then all the squeeing must have been terribly irritating - and all of the people criticising the arc on the other side seems to have been annoying the fans quite a lot.

If I may be so bold, I would suggest a truce. Everyone respects the other's opinion, without trying to shove their own down anyone's face, and we all try to tone down a bit.

Although I truly do hope we have a different topic this week, Claire and Marten will certainly be back as it looks as if they are going to be around as a couple for a good while. Maybe we could all look away when they do something cute and do our squeeing and criticism in private - at least in part?

Looking forward to continuing constructive exchanges of opinion on here - now on to the next topic!

[Carl-E]

It's her way to express her rapier wit.

Sorry, every time I hear this all I can think is "Rape yer own damn wit!" 




I'lll show myself out, thanks. 

[Storel]

6). Happy people make other people happy. It’s infectious. Let the love (and the squee) fill your heart. Smile at your husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, at your friends and colleagues, and show them the strips. They will be infected too. If we work hard we can cause an epidemic!

I believe the word you want here is "squeepidemic."

You're welcome. 

[ASB84]

I think part of the irritation on both sides stems from the fact that anyone who isn't thrilled with the pairing - or at least the way it's been handled in the story so far - is being misrepresented as miserably demanding that the story be nothing but drama, the relationship immediately go down in flames, and that we don't "get it", won't see reason, and so on and so forth. The side that is squeeing is irritated because they seem to see the other side of the argument in that light, while the other side is irritated at being portrayed as such.

In reality, most of us who aren't really feeling the squee as much just have a different preference as to how much cuteness is too much, at what point there's too much of a good thing. Think of it as the amount of sugar in your coffee, or the number of scoops of ice cream...whatever metaphor works for you. At the end of the day, it's all a matter of taste.

In addition to that, some of us want to see a bit more than just cuteness, or would prefer to see cuteness come as part of the story, not the point of it. For some of us, getting several strips in a row that are basically just squee material feels a bit empty and repetitive after the third or fourth one. It's not that we're bitter, sad people, trying to stomp all over the comic and rain on everyone's parade. We just want a bit more substance and story. If we're a bit haughty, it's probably because our criticisms and taste has been misrepresented and ridiculed in a manner that completely misses the point that we're trying to get across.

We don't hate happiness, we don't object to cuteness, we're not saying that no one shouldn't squee. We just want something to cut through the treacle on occasion, and something else on top of cute imagery.

[BenRG]

I don't know; maybe I'm unnaturally patient but I don't feel any particular need to 'progress' what is going on in Claireten right now. I'm perfectly happy for them to be drifting along on their honeymoon cloud until Jeph feels ready to do otherwise. Yes, I think that other story arcs deserve and need more strip time but I do not really feel any real irritation or boredom when Jeph feels the need to draw a strip or five of just the two of them doing couple-y (is that even a word?) things together.

[ASB84]

I don't know; maybe I'm unnaturally patient but I don't feel any particular need to 'progress' what is going on in Claireten right now. I'm perfectly happy for them to be drifting along on their honeymoon cloud until Jeph feels ready to do otherwise. Yes, I think that other story arcs deserve and need more strip time but I do not really feel any real irritation or boredom when Jeph feels the need to draw a strip or five of just the two of them doing couple-y (is that even a word?) things together.

Which is fair enough. It's definitely a "Your Mileage May Vary" thing. I (and at least a few others, from the looks of things) would like to see a little more than just the cuteness, or at least cuteness within the context of a more substantial story arc, but that's personal preference, what I (and those others) want to see.