Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ReindeerFlotilla]

"...but I'm not sexist!" said nobody, yet. But I kinda figure it's coming so I want to get it out of the way.

I recently apologized (sincerely) in a pre-emptive manner because it was possible that what I was suggesting as inconsistent was perfectly consistent and I had just missed some posts. I'm probably just bad at internet (Internet, but nobody like a pedant), so I tend not to put too much effort into retaining who said what, until it gets extremely repetitive. So, while this might a response to something you, dear reader, wrote... The odds I remember you wrote it are infinitesimal.

Also, I believe you aren't sexist. What follows if my observation about a pattern I see, which may not exist. It's not about what you are. It's about what seems to be happening.

/Preamble.

So, I obviously have something jammed side up my ass about the hate on people seem to have for their least favorite characters. There's a grain of salt to take with this. Still, I've noticed a pattern and it really bugs me that it is (might be?) there--not out of simple social outrage, but because I can't be sure if that pattern (if it is real) is result of mind sets or of Jeph's writing.

(Disclaimer: I pretty much adore Jeph's writing, even when I criticize it. So that's a thing.)

There's point. I promise.

The hate on bugs me, but even more bothersome is how it seems nigh exclusively aimed at the women of QC. It's not like I haven't considered the extenuating circumstances. The women vastly out number the regular men at any given time. The men tend to display less overall character dimension. There are exceptions in the cast--Marten and Clinton, but I'm going to dismiss Clinton simply on the basis that his character was introduced to be unlikable. So the fact that he raises ire means he's doing his job. Marten is a bit more questionable in terms of content, but I would argue that he is THE main character, having the most "screen" time.

Marten also doesn't seem to draw as much "hate on" so much as he draws a kind of paternal resignation. This doesn't surprise me, or suggest anything to me. Again, Main Character. You have to love hating him to still be reading.

Anyway, that's the thing nibbling at my awareness right now. It just feels like the girls are held to a higher standard than the boys when it comes--not to having a like/don't-like opinion, but--to the need to express exactly how terrible a character is. Even in the case of Marten seeming to get a fairer share, it feels like he's judged on what he did, while the girls are judged on what they are.

[Thrillho]

I haven't read the entire post, but were you here during Svengate? He got a LOT of hate.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Nope. I haven't be privy to any evidence of Sven hate at all.

Doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I haven't seen it. I don't recall a lot of hate over his last appearance, though. The most dramatic thing I recall was me saying he's the closest thing QC has to villain, and the disagreements that spurred. Which were so mild I only recall them after thinking real hard on whether I've seen any Sven hate.

[Penquin47]

The characters who IMO have behaved the worst, in alphabetical order:

- Angus.  Faye even called him on having seen one too many John Cusack movies where in the end, persistence wins the girl over... and then, in the end, persistence won the girl over.  He was creepy, stalkerish, and after the incident at the bar where Faye told him to go away twice and he responded by GIVING HER HIS PHONE NUMBER, I was done with any potential Faye/Angus relationship.

- Dora.  When it's gotten to the point where your super-chill boyfriend is cranky because you ignored his request to leave something alone, got mad at him for being upset by it, and stormed out... you've behaved very badly.  She did the right thing breaking up with him, but her relationship with Tai seems to be heading down the same road.

- Faye.  The early violence was for comedic purposes, but the later mean-spirited verbal barbs weren't.  Her whole relationship with Sven was Faye behaving badly.  "This is just about sex but I expect you to be fully committed to me even though I'm going to treat you like crap" is not a good way to have a relationship.

- Sven.  During the relationship with Faye, I kinda got the sense that he was at least trying to make it work?  But then, Gina Riversmith.  Faye made it clear she expected monogamy, he didn't comply and wasn't going to tell her until his intern forced his hand.  I'm ignoring the douchebag "I'm the hero of the romantic comedy come fall into my arms even though you already have a boyfriend" moment because I have no idea where that came from.

Of course, the entire cast (except perhaps Emily) have had their moments of not behaving well, but these seem above and beyond.

[eschaton]

Every character in the series has one or more glaring personality flaws.  Which makes sense, because if they did not, the series would be boring.

Actually, I'm not quite sure I can say what Steve's personality flaw is.  Unless you count being a bro as a personality flaw.  But then, he slowly faded into the background of the series, and has been sort of flanderized as a character over time. 

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Maybe I've grown so old and cynical that all of that just seems like normal stuff for 20-something people. Just uncommon enough in us older folks that we can turn up our noses at the young'uns, but the truth is that we do the same stupid shit, all the time.

Except Angus and Dale being stalkers/creepy. But maybe that's me not being cynical enough. Like I know how to have a health relationship.

I think the one thing I've seen in the comic that was straight up unforgivably wrong was Marten bailing on Padma when even he didn't want to do it. It was so terribly passive-aggressive against himself, but Padma got hit with the shockwave. (I hold Marten getting hammered and coming on to Faye as a close, but that was a punchline, so I figure it slides.) It wasn't part of joke, it made no sense and it managed to wrong everyone involved.

I was really happy to see it. Because while I couldn't understand the act, I understood the feeling of stewing in your own bitterness so long you lash out at yourself. I understand not being able to suck it up and fix it even knowing you were wrong. It felt real and it was nice to see a character--especially Marten--being wrong in a way that doesn't fall back on "It made sense in my world view."

Maybe that's my problem right there. I enjoy the nuance of a character being wrong. One of things I loved about the first seasons of House was seeing House face a situation that should challenge his cynicism, and finding a way to defeat those challenges. Because he often came up with rationalizations that were pretty shallow. That's funny to me because I don't like to see people suffer--I loathe The Office. I guess with QC it's because it's not constant and it doesn't feel like Jeph is setting things up to make suffering for the sake of suffering--And, all other things being equal, they usually aren't facing anything serious or terribly embarrassing.

I have to give you the interpretation of Sven's "I love you" moment. It's been coming forever, and I do see where he's coming from to an extent, but his inability to comprehend why Faye didn't leap into his arms is pretty baffling. I think I may have been dismissing it as just another punchline.

[ASB84]

I suppose you can never rule out sexism, but I think that the fact the cast of QC is predominantly female is definitely a factor, as is the fact that the two most prominent female characters are very polarising.

[mustang6172]

Of course, the entire cast (except perhaps Emily) have had their moments of not behaving well, but these seem above and beyond.

When were Momo and Winslow naughty?

If that sounds like I'm launching a ship, I'm not.

[Penquin47]

Momo when she first got her new chassis and promptly used it to punch Pintsize in the head repeatedly.  Admittedly this is perfectly understandable.

Winslow is a little too impressionable and gets drawn into Pintsize's schemes.

But yeah, they're easily among the better-behaved of characters.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Actually, Momo has a rather disturbing willingness to deploy her defensive system. I'd liken it to Faye's punching people phase. There are more reasonable response to most, if not all, of the situations she's used--or suggested using it.

Of course, she's also barely three years old.

[Omega Entity]

I'd say the reason why the girls get so much hate, is that there's simply so dang many of them, with such h different personalities. I'm pretty sure they outnumber the guys at this point. At least that's how I see it.

[Emperor Norton]

Characters I've personally seen get a hate following:

Men: Dale, Angus, Sven, Clinton
Women: Marigold, Dora, Faye, Tai, Claire

4 to 5 when more characters are women than men in the comic seems pretty... well, it just seems pretty unremarkable.

Now, I can't say there is NO -isms in this. The hate of Claire from some people has had obvious -ist behaviors involved, though people who make that obvious tend to get booted pretty fast. And yeah, is there probably the occasional sexist member that compounds the issue of a certain characters hate? More than likely yes.

But it just doesn't seem like its really extreme enough in that direction to pin it all or even mostly on that.

[mustang6172]

Actually, Momo has a rather disturbing willingness to deploy her defensive system.

I don't think Momo's new chassis has that.

[jwhouk]

Yes it does. She put Clinton's sock on top of the county courthouse.

[Aziraphale]

Who has she used it on besides Clinton (who had it coming)? She mentioned it to Emily (who immediately wanted to be on the receiving end), but that was also after Emily had (literally) been pushing her buttons in a way that bordered on harassment.

[Penquin47]

She used it on Marigold's computer.  In the middle of a raid.  Which she was playing for Marigold while she went out to drinks with Marten and Faye and Hanners, and then got all annoyed when Marigold tried to talk to her when she got back.

[Omega Entity]

Seems like I recall an active threat not too far back, complete with electrical aura.I can't recall who it was directed towards, though.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Characters I've personally seen get a hate following:

Men: Dale, Angus, Sven, Clinton
Women: Marigold, Dora, Faye, Tai, Claire

4 to 5 when more characters are women than men in the comic seems pretty... well, it just seems pretty unremarkable.

Now, I can't say there is NO -isms in this. The hate of Claire from some people has had obvious -ist behaviors involved, though people who make that obvious tend to get booted pretty fast. And yeah, is there probably the occasional sexist member that compounds the issue of a certain characters hate? More than likely yes.

But it just doesn't seem like its really extreme enough in that direction to pin it all or even mostly on that.

I'm willing to pin it on my bias, too. I just don't know. I haven't noted Angus, Dale, Sven provoking a sustained, multi-source, multi-directional criticism of everything they do every time they appear.

Clinton, yes. But as I said, Clinton's job is to provoke that reaction. Whatever else, we aren't really supposed to like him.

Momo's weapons system use on Clinton was the most obvious example. He's a creep, but there was probably a response below "knock him out of his shoes." It wouldn't have been funny, though. To the extent that Faye's criticized for her violence, it was all in service of a laugh. I happen to agree that if the genders were reverse, it wouldn't be funny, and that makes it a valid issue. Momo being a thing that can't exist in our current world doesn't really change that, IMO. So I have to hang my head and admit that I'm wrong because I still think it's funny.

I'm just saying that, technically speaking, it's the same as Faye's violence (which I also still find funny).

So, while I'm throwing out mea-culpas, it's worth noting that I meant the preamble. It's not about -isms, or people being an -ist. (Granted, the Claire problem tends to be exactly about that, but ban hammers fall like Thor's in the house, so...) It's just the potential for unexamined biases. It's not like I even thought of the problematic side of Momo's violent traits before today. I never examined it. Now that I have, I don't know that I won't laugh, chuckle, or guffaw next time it comes up.

I guess, unrestrained, it could become a problem of -isms, as unexamined biases are wont to. Then again, could just be my bias. Different points of view welcome, and all that.

[Kugai]

[Meilu]

I have a problem with virtually every character in the comic and the recent story arc has only made it worse. While characters I absolutely detest seem to have been written out (Angus, principally) I can't say there are any I outright hate that are female, but I know people like many of the women in the comic which likely prevents me from outright hating them. Even Marigold, who is virtually identical in look and personality to one of my exes (a relationship which just destroyed me for years, I might add) I can't hate, or even really dislike... though the most recent comic paints her in similar light.

I'm finishing my second read of the comic before continuing The current arc. I started my first read way back around comic 100 and never went back through it. All of the recent crap has made me feel all judgmental towards the cast, hopefully some of this stuff will pass. Claire is currently the only character I actively like, but I don't care for her current role.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I have a problem with virtually every character in the comic and the recent story arc has only made it worse. While characters I absolutely detest seem to have been written out (Angus, principally) I can't say there are any I outright hate that are female, but I know people like many of the women in the comic which likely prevents me from outright hating them. Even Marigold, who is virtually identical in look and personality to one of my exes (a relationship which just destroyed me for years, I might add) I can't hate, or even really dislike... though the most recent comic paints her in similar light.

I'm finishing my second read of the comic before continuing The current arc. I started my first read way back around comic 100 and never went back through it. All of the recent crap has made me feel all judgmental towards the cast, hopefully some of this stuff will pass. Claire is currently the only character I actively like, but I don't care for her current role.

Hmmm. I can see how that would happen. I share it, to an extent. I've done a few archive dives over the last few months, and each time it brings up how different a lot of characters are AND how little they've changed. Current Dora and Old Dora, for example. Same great neuroses, less snark. It's funny, because Marten actually comes of as the least changed. He's actually always been pretty smooth, and yet apt to kick himself in the uvula. The biggest thing that makes him seem different is that he's not losing bowel control every time things get all the feels with Claire. Give Claire time to find that spot on his neck, and we'll really see if he's turned into a different person.

To same extent that I miss old Dora, I miss old Claire, and she hasn't changed that much, either. It's the same character, but she's not being shown doing Claire-stuff.

I also figure a lot of that stuff I miss is gone for good. The room for Old Dora snark, and Claire-y Claire-isms was found in the five-six panel, talky format. The four panel picture format has less room for digressions.

[pwhodges]

was found in the five-six panel, talky format. The four panel picture format has less room for digressions.

Jeph's decision to be less talky is completely independent of the design.  The new design has greater area, and let's see: Marten backing away, 6 panels, silent; Tai and Dora tiff, 8 panels, talky....

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Talky compared to silence. The majority is still 4 panels with vastly less dialogue than the old, vertical format.

"Room" here is not a measure of pixel area, but of "story space." The 14 panels of the last three strips comprise 2 plot points, two punchlines, one sight gag, and 150 words of dialogue.

Strip 289's 4 panels comprise 2 plot points, two snark digressions, 3 punchlines, and button line in 160 words of dialogue. Jeph was doing more with less. Now he does less with more. I once said he's taking 3 days to do what he used to in one, but I didn't know my estimate was that accurate.

I did not cherry pick. I was looking for a comic that starts with a punchline and runs wild for 6 panels. 289 was the first click in a random dive, came up 4 panels, and still managed to be much more story dense than the last three days put together.

[Psyclone]

I honestly baffled for the reasons for most hate. For the life of me I cannot see anything Sven did wrong other than that creepy "please leave your current boyfriend" thing (I never understood why Dora has decided to shun him for life).

Only person I think is worthy of hate is Faye. I don't understand why people can hate Marigold and not Faye. Marigold at the very most does nothing while Faye outright abuses everyone she meets. How is that acceptable? I admit I am asking because I think I myself have Marigold's introversion and Marten's spinelessness. Is that a reason for me to be worried? What can I do?

[Thrillho]

I admit I am asking because I think I myself have Marigold's introversion and Marten's spinelessness. Is that a reason for me to be worried? What can I do?

And this right here is part of what I find so worrying about the level of hatred some characters get on this forum. I really don't like Sven either, but the vitriol some characters get just worries me, especially since Jeph seems to aim to set his comic in a world not too far from our own. His characters are human and they make mistakes, and yet some people don't forgive any of these characters for any of this, and now we have here a poster who thinks that being shy and introverted is a cardinal sin to some people.

Psyclone, there is nothing wrong with being introverted or shy, and the word 'spineless' is one too disparaging to be using about yourself. It implies that there is a negative quality rather than simply a differing quality and that's just not healthy.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

This. Very this.

In a world where you compete with large predators for food "spinelessness" is a negative quality. In the world most members of this forum live in--the world I think we all imagine should spread to the part of Earth where it doesn't obtain, at least where standard of living is concerned--the biggest threat most will ever face is some person willing to do violence out of petulance or misplaced anger. Nothing important is at stake. Frankly, not wanting to "be brave" in that circumstance is the smartest thing a person can do.

It's a big planet, and there's not a lot that can't be solved by just avoiding it. I suspect you also include things like socializing in non-threat situations in there, and that can be a problem. But it is my personal hallucination that social issues are as external as they are internal. Not all of us are cut out for the default social melee. It could be that what you perceive as spinelessness is really a sign that you need a better peer group (better for you, not better in some absolute sense). This is also okay.

On the subject, itself, the QC peer group is pretty damned good, all other thing assumed to be equal. They don't, for the most part, go out of their way to make each other feel unworthy. And when they do, they tend to hold themselves responsible for being wrong, and try to make it better. The equilibrium point for the system is "it is okay to be you." The drama tends to develop around things moving away from that point. Resolutions tend to move toward that point.

[Emperor Norton]

I admit I am asking because I think I myself have Marigold's introversion and Marten's spinelessness. Is that a reason for me to be worried? What can I do?

And this right here is part of what I find so worrying about the level of hatred some characters get on this forum. I really don't like Sven either, but the vitriol some characters get just worries me, especially since Jeph seems to aim to set his comic in a world not too far from our own. His characters are human and they make mistakes, and yet some people don't forgive any of these characters for any of this, and now we have here a poster who thinks that being shy and introverted is a cardinal sin to some people.

Psyclone, there is nothing wrong with being introverted or shy, and the word 'spineless' is one too disparaging to be using about yourself. It implies that there is a negative quality rather than simply a differing quality and that's just not healthy.

Just wanted to say that this post made is spot on.

[pwhodges]

The equilibrium point for the system is "it is okay to be you." The drama tends to develop around things moving away from that point. Resolutions tend to move toward that point.

As Shinji says at the end of the TV series ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion, in the realisation the whole work has been building up to:  "It's OK to be me".

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Congratulations! 

[Drachenfel]

"...but I'm not sexist!" said nobody, yet. But I kinda figure it's coming so I want to get it out of the way.

I recently apologized (sincerely) in a pre-emptive manner because it was possible that what I was suggesting as inconsistent was perfectly consistent and I had just missed some posts. I'm probably just bad at internet (Internet, but nobody like a pedant), so I tend not to put too much effort into retaining who said what, until it gets extremely repetitive. So, while this might a response to something you, dear reader, wrote... The odds I remember you wrote it are infinitesimal.

Also, I believe you aren't sexist. What follows if my observation about a pattern I see, which may not exist. It's not about what you are. It's about what seems to be happening.

/Preamble.

So, I obviously have something jammed side up my ass about the hate on people seem to have for their least favorite characters. There's a grain of salt to take with this. Still, I've noticed a pattern and it really bugs me that it is (might be?) there--not out of simple social outrage, but because I can't be sure if that pattern (if it is real) is result of mind sets or of Jeph's writing.

(Disclaimer: I pretty much adore Jeph's writing, even when I criticize it. So that's a thing.)

There's point. I promise.

The hate on bugs me, but even more bothersome is how it seems nigh exclusively aimed at the women of QC. It's not like I haven't considered the extenuating circumstances. The women vastly out number the regular men at any given time. The men tend to display less overall character dimension. There are exceptions in the cast--Marten and Clinton, but I'm going to dismiss Clinton simply on the basis that his character was introduced to be unlikable. So the fact that he raises ire means he's doing his job. Marten is a bit more questionable in terms of content, but I would argue that he is THE main character, having the most "screen" time.

Marten also doesn't seem to draw as much "hate on" so much as he draws a kind of paternal resignation. This doesn't surprise me, or suggest anything to me. Again, Main Character. You have to love hating him to still be reading.

Anyway, that's the thing nibbling at my awareness right now. It just feels like the girls are held to a higher standard than the boys when it comes--not to having a like/don't-like opinion, but--to the need to express exactly how terrible a character is. Even in the case of Marten seeming to get a fairer share, it feels like he's judged on what he did, while the girls are judged on what they are.

I'm sorry, but this really really bothered me!

We have exactly 1 main male character, a couple secondary and the rest are there for punch lines.  So YES you will see more 'hate on' towards the women in this comic.  Likewise the women in this comic are deeper characters then any of the men and deeper characters create greater feelings from the people looking in on them.  Marten is described by many as chill and zen and the nice guy, he has no major character flaws other then his lack of major character flaws.  He's, at least to me, boring as hell unless he's paired to one of the other characters and interacting with them.

Do not even suggest people being unfair to women in a comic where the men are poorly represented!  If men in this comic become equally represented and all the hate seems to be directed at the women you can throw the sexists term, otherwise please please DON'T!  All it means here is that the women are better thought out characters and stir people's emotions!

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Hmmm. I didn't throw the sexist term.

I'll throw it now. It's been my observation that people throwing the hate on are quick to resort to terms like "bitch" and "cunt." This usually gets them a warning and if they care about such, they stop. If they don't they get banned. But it happens, a lot.

Just happened yesterday, in fact.

I think you have valid point to consider, but if it appeared that easy, I would have already agreed with your general POV since the post you quote has me acknowledging every point you make. What I observe, or think I observe, is not explained.

It's not that I'm unaware of these points.

In later posts, right up there, I also look into Marten's character and the general reaction to. We don't agree on this point. Marten gets his share of "hate" but largely for what he does, rather than who he is.

Ultimately, my concern is not based merely on quantity, but quality. Excepting, to an extent, Clinton, none of the guys seems to really suffer from equal and opposite criticism to everything they do. If that really is the fault of the writer, for drawing dull male characters (as I originally said), okay then. I have doubts. But I also admit it might just be me.

So I humbly ask you not to DON'T at... well, anyone. If you think one is not giving enough weight to an element, that's a basis for reasoning, but you aren't going to get far by repeating what they've already said, but emphatically.

[Is it cold in here?]

I see your point about the qualitative difference. The moderators, at least since I started, have never had to remove a thread titled "Marten is a [sexist slur]". The person who posted in every thread about how Faye was evil and stole her boyfriend had no parallels for any of the male characters.

RF, please correct my understanding. I believe you're talking specifically about the extreme outliers? About the people who are not just normally criticizing a character, but going bonkers about it?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Yes.

It did not occur to me that my thoughts could be construed otherwise. I see I made an error. I had no intention to imply that having a negative opinion of a woman character must be sexist. Obviously, I failed in that intent. I'm sorry.

[WareWolf]

Every character in the series has one or more glaring personality flaws.  Which makes sense, because if they did not, the series would be boring.

THANK YOU.