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Poll

Just who are the bad guys here?

Alice - Trying to create an agrican utopia
- 2 (6.3%)
Praeses - Trying to breach the peace agreement and threatening everyting
- 12 (37.5%)
Ardent and Gavia - Only pretending to be clueless
- 0 (0%)
Night Walker - Being made up of bits that are normally EVERYWHERE gives you influence
- 2 (6.3%)
Giant Birds - It's always the one you expect the least!
- 4 (12.5%)
The Unknown Shadowy Hand - Because there is always someone hiding behind the curtain
- 12 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 32


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Author Topic: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015  (Read 19223 times)

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #150 on: 21 Aug 2015, 14:17 »

There comes a point where even the greatest Warrior says "No more!!"
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #151 on: 21 Aug 2015, 15:27 »

Starting to get a strong Jones vibe (Gunnerkrigg Court) with her now.

Jones is a curious creation but, IMHO at least, she and Alice are very different... except in appearance, which I found very spooky.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #152 on: 21 Aug 2015, 17:06 »

Jones claims to be emotionless if memory serves. Her memories also don't seem as psychologically damaging, even she must have seen over four thousand once-in-a-million-years horrors.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #153 on: 21 Aug 2015, 18:12 »

It is... disturbing at times just how terrifyingly efficient and enthusiastic the human race is when it turns its collective mind to the mass eradication of life.

Botulism toxin is basically weaponized poop.

There are animals in the family mMustelidae who kill because why not. domestic cats are known to be roving murder bots who kill for no other reason than there is a thing that can be killed.

These are just three examples off the top of my head. Why is it at all surprising that humans have weaponized intelligence? There are counless examples that natural selection rewards animals that efficiently or enthusiastically kill whatever they can, including each other. Despite Agent Smith's assertion, every other mammal does not come to a natural equilibrium with its envrionment. It not just humans and viruses that consume all the resources and move on. that's why invasive species are a problem.

Nature's balances rest on a fulcrum that is equal parts consumption and replication, and death and destruction.

Deep down, this has always struck me as one of humanity's delusions. Except that sounds judgmental and It's not meant to be. Intelligence is evolved. As awesome as it is that we can use it to formulate pi (or preferably, tau) we also use it to formulate big foot, gods, and the Bermuda triangle. Ultimately, natural selection is unconcerned with whether the tools it crafts are "right," but only that they work. What intelligence constructs need not be representative of the real world, if it conveys advantage in passing on genes.

This better functional than realistic method makes selection a form of mathematics or vice versa.

What is interesting to me is that along with weaponizing intelligence, we've used it build a number of evolutionary tools that are generally aimed at preserving life. They were obviously intended to pass on genes, just like all the rest, but they've also gone to the extreme. A level of altruism that no longer makes sense at the genetic replication level. We are efficient and effective killers, but we are also the most efficient and effective healers and caregivers this planet has produced. We're so good at it, we've abstracted it and specialized it such that we have artisans who focus entirely on  providing care for other species for not reason other than "it's there." Not just caring for animals that produce goods we consume, but caring for animals just because.

We often stand in judgment of our species as horrible compared to others, and I generally agree, because I am cynical pessimist. But the fact is that we are the undisputed champs when comes to pretty much all the "good" behaviors, too. I think the whole factors of surprise and shock at our heights and depths tends to vanish when you realize that good and bad are also constructs of our evolved intelligence ad actually have little to do with reality. Morality is another of those things like math. It doesn't matter if it is real, just that it works.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #154 on: 21 Aug 2015, 18:49 »

From another angle, along with all the other species we've sent to extinction, we also eradicated smallpox and have polio on its deathbed.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #155 on: 21 Aug 2015, 19:39 »

There comes a point where even the greatest Warrior says "No more!!"

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4BTcxQQf_O0




On a more serious note, holy hell that look on Alice's face in the last panel. Just... wow. Ignoring any and all emotional impact from the story, that right there is -art-.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #156 on: 22 Aug 2015, 08:43 »

New comic up!

For something so simple, it's full of world-building and character-building. It also has probably the single most significant Alice quote so far:

Quote
"If I'm right, you're being used as weapon. That's a terrible thing to be. I should know. I was a weapon too, once."

So, there we have it. What exactly is she? Gene-engineered super-soldier? Cyborg super-soldier? Whatever it was, it's left scars. Immortality has left scars too, by the looks of it. How long can one woman, no matter how remarkably gifted, carry the world before she starts to buckle under the weight?

Oh, and I was almost right. It's just Ardent who goes in for the hug instead of Gavia. Which, when you think of it, is deeply in-character for him.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #157 on: 22 Aug 2015, 09:37 »

Such a burden, being right.

The most developy thing I get from this (not discounting the weaponized Alice, just calling it revelatory. For arbitrary distinction sake), it that Alice is willing to open up at all. Obviously the flash back was emotional for her, but her verbal response are pure, cold Alice. Rational. Objective.

Her body language, OTOH is vulnerable. I don't know if she's hiding her face, in the end because there's only so much vulnerability she can tolerate, or if Jeph just wasn't up to drawing tears, but it's nice touch. It fits in with the conflicted expression of Alice's affect.

Now, I'm going to kick back and drink all of Arbitrary Distinction's sake.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #158 on: 22 Aug 2015, 13:35 »

Dang!
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #159 on: 22 Aug 2015, 18:44 »

Alice doesn't kill people; people kill people.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #160 on: 22 Aug 2015, 18:49 »

Alice is a person, and she's killed a lot of people. But probably never one who allowed himself to be killed.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #161 on: 22 Aug 2015, 23:55 »

Alice is a person, and she's killed a lot of people. But probably never one who allowed himself to be killed.

I wouldn't put money on that.

I mean, we authors do love to create the conflicted soldier who hates what they were but, on analysis was just somebody fighting a war, and never did anything questionable. War is hell, etc. Which is true, even if you do it "right." But doing it right is easier imagined than done.

Alice strikes me as the kind of person who would kill someone in these exact circumstances and call it square. The mission requires, so it will be done.

Of course, that's just her personality talking. Jeph only knows what kind of person she reall is.

I'm going to tell a story. Hopefully is will be short. There was an Attack helicopter pilot. A warrant officer, and the senior pilot on routine patrol in Vietnam, during the war. Nothing special.

Now, for context, understand that this man's last tour in Vietnam ended when he was shot in the back while flying an attack helicopter. While this even was in the future, compared to the story, it's relevant to understand the situation. Being in the air didn't make one safe from bullets, oddly enough.

As I said, this was nothing special, Just two gunships on patrol. As the senior officer, this man's job was to give direction. As a wingman, his job was to provide mutual support. Keep an eye out for threats his wing man might not be able to see, while his wing man (technically wing men, but roll with me) did the same for him.

Now, what happens next happens quickly, because war. While this man implies that he hold's himself responsible personally, he wasn't the only set of eyes in his aircraft. He was just the guy who saw it first.

A hut. An unremarkable hut. And his wing man was going to over fly it.

Shot in the back, while piloting. I said that was important. Because he had no idea why that hut was there. It could have been a hidy hole for a guy with a rifle, just waiting for a chopper to snipe. It could have been a mother and her son, Tiny Tim. He didn't know. He just knew his wing man was going into the danger zone around it, and it was too late to call a divert.

He, on the other hand, was almost lined up perfectly on it. I wasn't too late to eliminate "almost." So he did. Then he eliminated the hut with rocket fire.

That is war. Maybe he killed the enemy. Maybe he killed a hunter just trying to get dinner for the kids. Maybe he blew up a hut with nothing in it. He had a responsibility to the mission, and to the men in the aircraft. Doubly so as they were under his command. The calculus was simple. The call was the right one.

So you gotta wonder why he told me that story 20 years after the fact. No moral. No lesson offered. No justification.

Alice is the weapons system. If she doesn't have stories like that keeping her awake in the middle of the millennium, she wasn't really in a war. If she didn't "fire" at times it wasn't really clear she had to, she wasn't in a war. We have main battle tanks and jet fighters because they work. So weaponizing a woman implies they needed more than a super soldier. They needed something to get up close and personal with the enemy. And kill it with her bare hands.

After a while, the enemy stops being human.

After the war, it dawns on you how many humans you killed, or might have killed, or didn't kill and that's why you got to watch your buddy's head explode.

Maybe he did have a lesson in mind when he told me the story. After all, he did ask what I would have done. And I gave the only answer you can give. If I had been trained, I'd like to think I'd do the same, because I know it's the right call. Even if there were innocents inside. I couldn't know. I would have been trained, indoctrinated, to protect my people, and if protecting them means burning a bit of my soul, that's the job. But I wasn't trained. At the very least, I'd hesitate just trying to work out where my responsibilities lie. And if that hesitation cost the lives of men I was sworn to protect, well that's also a bit of my soul burned, isn't it?

How many huts has Alice burned? I bet there were a lot.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #162 on: 23 Aug 2015, 00:40 »

Of course, those midnight moments are worse when, with the maturity and clarity that comes with time, you determine that the cause was unjust, the orders illegal and the reasons irrational. It's hard to keep going when you realise that you were a gun in the hands of a monster and, worse, a gun with the intelligence and capability to have refused to fire... if you'd wanted to.

"We need to execute these women and children because we need to focus food production on combat-capable parts of our population."

"Yes sir."

"We need to liquidate this entire community because we aren't sure that they are ideologically pure enough."

"Yes sir."

"Jeez, Alice! Those augmentations are really working, you fucking punched right through that guy's head!"

"Heh. Yeah, I did, didn't I? Being a super-soldier is cool!"

"Why did you do it?"

"Eh... Stupid civvie pissed me off by lookin' at me wrong."

"Asshole had it coming!"
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #163 on: 23 Aug 2015, 04:12 »

Called it!

(This is not aimed at you individually)

Don't you people think that this "Called it" meme has got more than a little out of hand?  In this case, there were two options - she killed him/she didn't.  Guessing the right one is hardly an achievement, as even if there was no indication a 50:50 chance is no big deal.  And I'm not sure that so closely identifying one's thought processes with those of the cartoonist is entirely healthy.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #164 on: 23 Aug 2015, 05:21 »

Actually, if you look up-thread, the debate was far more nuanced than "killed/didn't kill". It was about whether she even hit Ardent, what might happen if she did or whether or not he was even killable. The things that I called was:
  • Alice ended up with her hand embedded in the wall because her thrust was so powerful;
  • She'd break down and that one of the Space Kids would end up hugging her
I'm usually incredibly poor at predicting future plot directions or even the outcome of cliff-hangers so please indulge my need to celebrate actually getting it right for once!
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #165 on: 23 Aug 2015, 10:12 »

Called it!

(This is not aimed at you individually)

Don't you people think that this "Called it" meme has got more than a little out of hand?  In this case, there were two options - she killed him/she didn't.  Guessing the right one is hardly an achievement, as even if there was no indication a 50:50 chance is no big deal.  And I'm not sure that so closely identifying one's thought processes with those of the cartoonist is entirely healthy.

I very specifically called
A) Alice put her hand in the wall.
B) Alice is a weapons system, not a purpose built protector for the blink.

It was obvious from Jeph's sarcastic caption that she didn't kill Ardent.

Also, "You people" is poor phrasing in any circumstances given the huge number of circumstances in which it's used to dogwhistle sexism, racism, and homophobia.

I'm not saying you are a sexist racist homophobe. I'm implying it, the same way you unnecessarily implied that story analysis is mental illness. Considering the fact that I am a "cartoonist," I'd call it what it is. Practice. Storytelling is the fine art of taking a situation and figuring out what happens next. Analysis of another storyteller's story is how you practice that. Practice makes perfect. We aren't mentally ill, and we've got no reason to think you're actually a bigot, except for the ablism implied by suggesting we were mentally ill, but that'll pass. So maybe we can all agree to project a bit less?

I get it. People do things. It annoys. But as long as they aren't being disruptive and breaking the rules, why not let them enjoy stuff in their own way? Believe me, I find myself responding the same way when something gets under my skin. But then I try to stop myself.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #166 on: 23 Aug 2015, 10:26 »

I'm not saying you are a sexist racist homophobe. I'm implying it
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #167 on: 23 Aug 2015, 10:28 »

I'm not saying you are a sexist racist homophobe. I'm implying it
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Thank you for modding, but if you took that in context, you'd note that I implied to illustrate a point about not implying stuff, like the other mod's implication that people who say "called it" are mentally defective.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #168 on: 23 Aug 2015, 10:45 »

Wait, Alice hasn't been established as a weapons system.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #169 on: 23 Aug 2015, 11:13 »

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Considering the fact that I am a "cartoonist," I'd call it what it is. Practice. Storytelling is the fine art of taking a situation and figuring out what happens next. Analysis of another storyteller's story is how you practice that. Practice makes perfect.

(mod)For anyone following along trying to understand community standards, RF's statement here is exemplary. Direct, on point, insightful, educational, impersonal, and therefore respectful.(/)
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #170 on: 23 Aug 2015, 22:43 »

Quote
Did anyone actually think Ardent was dead?
*raises hand*

Yeah, I'm a bastard.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #171 on: 24 Aug 2015, 04:29 »

Quote
Did anyone actually think Ardent was dead?
*raises hand*

Yeah, I'm a bastard.

*also raises hand*

Long time Joss Whedon fan here...
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #172 on: 24 Aug 2015, 04:45 »

The first panel reminds me of some background stuff I read in some World of Darkness Vampire source book ( I was flicking through somebody else's, I don't play WoD, honestly).

It cogently argued the point that any person granted immortality would slowly turn into a monster.  If they happened to be exceptionally morally upstanding the progress would be slower, but it would still inevitably occur.

I think RPG source books are an underrated form of literature.
« Last Edit: 24 Aug 2015, 04:57 by katsmeat »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #173 on: 24 Aug 2015, 14:06 »

Quote
Did anyone actually think Ardent was dead?
*raises hand*

Yeah, I'm a bastard.

*also raises hand*

Long time Joss Whedon fan here...


Well, at least Jeph isn't George R.R. Martin
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #174 on: 24 Aug 2015, 14:12 »

I didn't think Ardent was alive because I didn't think Jeph wouldn't go through with it, I thought he was alive because that would be a shitty way to kill off a main character.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #175 on: 24 Aug 2015, 20:50 »

Main characters have been killed off for less.

(click to show/hide)
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #176 on: 24 Aug 2015, 20:52 »

Ok, I don't know what that's a spoiler for. And I don't mean that it wouldn't have been enough of a reason to kill him, I mean Jeph wouldn't kill him in a "did I kill him?" way.

And now I know what it's a spoiler for in a way that made it unavoidable to know what the actual spoiler was. Eh, I probably wasn't gonna read it anyway.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #177 on: 25 Aug 2015, 21:31 »

Can you elaborate? I don't think I know any of those images.

Panel 1 looks like a mass burning of heretics or some mass-cremation or it could just be the fires of total war such as those that consumed large parts of London, Berlin, Hamburg, Coventry, Tokyo and dozens of other cities during WW2.

Panel 2 is a loose adaptation of an iconic photograph of a mass grave of Jews, Slavs and other 'subhumans' at a Nazi extermination camp at the end of WW2 in Europe.

Panel 3 is a bloody hand, the universal and seemingly instinctual symbolic visualisation of murder.

It is... disturbing at times just how terrifyingly efficient and enthusiastic the human race is when it turns its collective mind to the mass eradication of life.

I believe the first is from a photo of the firebombing of Dresden, although it's hard to tell.   The second is right on the money, though it could be any mass grave, there were several well known photos of trench graves from the holocaust.  And I seem to recall seeing the third before - on first look, I thought it was the hand of a person who'd been lynched, but on a second look BenRG may well be right. 
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #178 on: 26 Aug 2015, 17:03 »

Welcome to Canada Jeph
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #179 on: 26 Aug 2015, 17:17 »

Eh?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #180 on: 26 Aug 2015, 17:37 »

See his message in Alice Grove
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #181 on: 26 Aug 2015, 17:38 »

I know, that was a Canadian "eh?"!
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #182 on: 26 Aug 2015, 17:39 »

Ahhh!!!!
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #183 on: 26 Aug 2015, 18:11 »

Yah, eh? He's oot and aboot in Canada, eh? Picking up a Timmies and goin' ta see da Leafs training camp, eh?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #184 on: 26 Aug 2015, 22:19 »

Depends on which part of Canada. He could be oat and aboat.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #185 on: 27 Aug 2015, 14:05 »

*Must ....... resist ....... punning*
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #186 on: 27 Aug 2015, 14:10 »

Resistance is futile.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #187 on: 27 Aug 2015, 16:03 »

You will be alicimated.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #188 on: 27 Aug 2015, 21:46 »

"I was a weapon too, once." Does that remind you of anyone we know? Like Bubbles.
« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2015, 07:02 by KOK »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #189 on: 28 Aug 2015, 14:36 »

She's seen things Ardent and Gavia wouldn't believe.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #190 on: 28 Aug 2015, 18:17 »

She's seen things Ardent and Gavia wouldn't believe.

This is probably literally true. I just hope she save Harrison Ford before she dies.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #191 on: 29 Aug 2015, 15:47 »

Naaah, that's Chewies job
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT August 2015
« Reply #192 on: 29 Aug 2015, 23:56 »

I think you're thinking of Short Round.

Or maybe Willem Dafoe. I always get those two mixed up.
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