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Author Topic: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship  (Read 10795 times)

BenRG

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We all know it is going to come eventually. We all know that Hannelore will ether muster up the boldness to confront her fears or just simply become so envious of her friends having intimate relationships that she will just not care anymore. Eventually, she is going to dip her toe in the pool of adult relationships and there is no telling how far it will go.

The questions are:
  • Drama or comedy?
  • How far?
I say 'comedy' but I hope in a kind way that doesn't turn her into a butt monkey.

Now, from all accounts, Hannelore is not particularly well-socialised. She missed a howler of a Claire Pun from Emily. We also know that she isn't particularly good at what I think of as 'body English' - using body posture and facial expressions to communicate emotions and attitudes. You only have to look at how she traumatised Dora's poor cat! Yet she is still a woman and she still, at heart, would welcome a deeper relationship with someone. Look at how much she enjoyed her date with Sven (I think he enjoyed it more than he thought too but that's a totally different topic and one technically out-of-bounds to this forum)!

I am sufficiently an old romantic that I would actually enjoy a story arc with Hannelore awkwardly trying to break the ice and develop the sort of non-verbal communication that others take for granted. The false starts, the mis-communications and the somewhat uncertain application of social cues and body language with which she isn't really familiar. It is, IMO, the logical next step in the development of the character, should Jeph choose to continue to pursue her arc (I've said elsewhere that you can make an argument that Jeph has told Hannelore's tale to the point he wants).

In terms of 'how far', I can see it becoming a close, intimate friendship but an entirely platonic one analogous to Marten's current relationship with Faye (although unforeseen events may eventually change that radically).

So, that's my call on how it could be done. What do you guys think?
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #1 on: 22 Oct 2014, 03:16 »

I think she herself has actually stated that she hopes to one day be able to have a meaningful romantic relationship. (Around the beginning of Fay/Angus or Dale/Marigold if I recall)
Personally if Clinton wasn't such a creep/obsessive fanboy I'd like that as he has been shown to be very over protective of those he cares about (currently limited to Claire). I think someone who was Asexual but not Aromantic would fit in very well with her.

Knowing Jeph he'd probably do some serious strips around the beginning (not necessarily drama, just not really comedy), do some comedy, foreshadow the breakup, do some more comedy, then kill it either with fire drama or make it end amicably.
Of course we'd have other plots in between these parts but that would basically be how I see the Hanners romance plot working
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bhtooefr

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #2 on: 22 Oct 2014, 03:44 »

I wonder if Hannelore will actually be part of the first human/AI relationship shown in the comic, due to practical considerations, even though she didn't like the chassis that her father sent - but part of that was because the chassis was right in the worst of the uncanny valley.

However, in a year or so in-comic, the designers seem to have gotten it right, and pushed through the uncanny valley, as it's clear from her initial reaction to Momo hugging her that she considers AIs to be people first and foremost, even to the point of forgetting that Momo's an electromechanical person... but Hannelore was able to handle it when Momo pointed out that she's a robot. (We've also seen other signs that Momo now has "passing privilege" (as much as that term sucks, it is accurate) in the QCverse. And, no, I'm not shipping Hannelore and Momo (Hannelore's outright said she's straight, and Momo has shown no indications of being anything other than straight), but saying that Momo is a representation of the technology available to AIs at this point in time.)

That said, I could also see Hannelore being a bit robophobic sexually, out of wanting to push her boundaries towards normality, and seeing a sexual relationship with a robot as being a crutch.

Why am I analyzing Hannelore to this extent... :psyduck:
« Last Edit: 22 Oct 2014, 03:49 by bhtooefr »
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Thrillho

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #3 on: 22 Oct 2014, 04:09 »

We all know it is going to come eventually.

Some people are alone forever and are happy. Some people are alone forever and aren't. Some people are in relationships constantly and are unhappy. Some people are in relationships constantly and aren't.

I don't personally want QC to end up being a 'pair everyone up' situation where it all ends with all the happy couples snuggled up on one giant sofa while Yelling Bird farts a rainbow across the horizon.

Real life just ain't that simple. Hannelore simply might not get into a relationship one day. She also simply might not want one, now, or ever.

Of course, only Jeph knows for sure.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #4 on: 22 Oct 2014, 05:12 »

The Return of Station?
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BenRG

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #5 on: 22 Oct 2014, 05:15 »

The Return of Station?

That is a good question. I am satisfied, in my own mind, that Station has feelings for Hannelore that are analogous to what a human would consider romantic attraction. Even if Hannelore isn't interested in him, we know that he is in regular contact with her and may react if she finds a human beau (or even another AI other than him).
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NemoX

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #6 on: 22 Oct 2014, 05:22 »

Some people are alone forever and are happy. Some people are alone forever and aren't. Some people are in relationships constantly and are unhappy. Some people are in relationships constantly and aren't.
I don't personally want QC to end up being a 'pair everyone up' situation where it all ends with all the happy couples snuggled up on one giant sofa while Yelling Bird farts a rainbow across the horizon.

Real life just ain't that simple. Hannelore simply might not get into a relationship one day. She also simply might not want one, now, or ever.

Of course, only Jeph knows for sure.

I agree with this sentiment, however, She has indeed mentioned before how she hopes one day maybe break her issues enough that she may have a relationship with someone, and if previous actions are any indication, if she finds the right person she might go for it. She has consistently pushed her boundaries and faced her fears all thru the comic. She is the one character that puckers up and when she sees an opportunity to challenge herself, she takes it. So I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that she might one day at least TRY.

That said, she is also the kind of person that if it fails, or never finds the right person, she is comfortable enough with herself that she can and will still be happy with her life, friends suffice. Like you said, its not for everyone, and she may never have one, but she is the kind that might at least try. Only Jeph knows for sure yeah, but I don't think its such a ludicrous idea to think it may happen, if anything for a change of pace from heavy drama to more of a rom-com kinda story.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #7 on: 22 Oct 2014, 06:24 »

If it happens, I would hope that it's written like the rest of the relationships in the comic so far: the relationship comes first, and the laughs arise naturally from the day-to-day relationship stuff that invariably comes up. Jeph's handled everybody else's relationships (even the ones like Sven/Faye) with a pretty high degree of sensitivity, so I can't really see him playing Hannelore's relationship, should it happen, just for laughs -- or, for that matter, just for drama. There'll be plenty of both, no doubt, but in a way that's organic to the story and the relationship itself.

Some people are perfectly happy alone, as has been pointed out. Hanners enjoys her own company, but I don't think that she's either asexual or aromantic; her lack of partners up to this point would seem to stem more from her OCD and the insecurities that it seems to have brought with it than it would from lack of desire. She's said more than once that she'd like to be "normal," and if she feels that normalcy, for her, would include a relationship with another person*, then it'd be nice to see her progress to a point where she's comfortable sticking her toe in the water.

It may seem unlikely, but if you think back to the space station storyline and look at how far she's progressed and then take that in tandem with how she's progressed since she first showed up in QC, it's not that far-fetched. Then, too, you have to consider that she's shown a great deal of insight when it comes to other people's issues; she was instrumental in helping Marigold come out of her shell and to otherwise get her act together, she's helped Marten from time to time, and she's even read Faye the riot act when it was called for. She's often able to approach her own problems with similar empathy and a sense of humor. It would take someone with a great deal of patience and kindness (like Marten, though I should be clear that I'm not necessarily shipping them), as well as Hanners learning to give herself the same kind of patience, understanding, and kindness she's shown others in the story up to this point.

*I include AIs in the "person" category here for what I hope would be obvious reasons
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Storel

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #8 on: 22 Oct 2014, 13:48 »

We also know that she isn't particularly good at what I think of as 'body English' - using body posture and facial expressions to communicate emotions and attitudes. You only have to look at how she traumatised Dora's poor cat!

I am sufficiently an old romantic that I would actually enjoy a story arc with Hannelore awkwardly trying to break the ice and develop the sort of non-verbal communication that others take for granted. The false starts, the mis-communications and the somewhat uncertain application of social cues and body language with which she isn't really familiar. It is, IMO, the logical next step in the development of the character, should Jeph choose to continue to pursue her arc (I've said elsewhere that you can make an argument that Jeph has told Hannelore's tale to the point he wants).

Remembering her skill with the calculus of happiness, I can see Hannelore undertaking the study of body language with as much determination and scientific rigor as that. She'd read scholarly books and articles in psychological journals and throw herself into it with such (characteristic) overkill that she'd probably end up the world's greatest theoretical expert on human body language -- and still have little skill in actually applying that knowledge to her own body language. But she'd practice earnestly, probably enlisting some of her friends to critique her practice sessions ("No, a little less emphasis on the hip swings there") and start making progress in the charmingly naive way she already has in some areas. ("Yay, I hugged someone in a socially appropriate way!")

At least, that's my impression of how she'd handle it. But I think she'd only improve up to a point before something new caught her attention (like drumming did) and the practice sessions would become less frequent.

Frankly, a great part of her charm is that fact that we see practically everything she does requires a struggle to overcome her fears and neuroses and make better progress in getting along with people. If she finally accomplishes all of that and becomes a "normal woman", whatever she or Jeph or society may take that to mean, then she's just another cute girl in a strip that has several already and people would lose interest in her to some extent. So I don't think Jeph will ever have her improve to the point that she's completely normal, but I doubt he'll have her plateau at some point and stop progressing at all. I'm very impressed at how he's shown her making very slow, incremental progress -- sometimes "two steps forward and one step back" -- all this time, and yet with milestones that show us how far she's come. (Hugging her father at his birthday party was huge!)
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #9 on: 22 Oct 2014, 14:32 »

Momo as a close Justafriend would make a lot of sense. Hannelore could use a social protocol database and Momo seems like a trustworthy person.

The world seems to have forgotten the idea of chaste romantic relationships. It would be a fun change of pace to see one appear in a comic series. I can imagine a very cute situation of Hannelore exchanging flowers and compliments with an asexual guy.
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NemoX

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #10 on: 22 Oct 2014, 14:50 »


The world seems to have forgotten the idea of chaste romantic relationships. It would be a fun change of pace to see one appear in a comic series. I can imagine a very cute situation of Hannelore exchanging flowers and compliments with an asexual guy.

I don't think the world has forgotten in so much as the couples who do, don't go out of their way to advertize it, precisely because if they are the kind of people who have those kinds of views, would deem inappropriate to share such personal details and information that only pertains to them. Likewise, the societal stigma nowadays would not give any incentive to advertize you having one.

There are always exceptions of course, I know a few people who have this kind of relationship (with varying degrees of frustration from one or both parties involved), but the vast majority I bet don't even think twice about it enough to make it an issue. It's just another fact n their relationship.

I can see Hanners pursuing this type, altho if she were to feel more adventurous she might slowly push boundaries. slowly.  The only thing holding her back is her OCD and neurosis, but we know she is also interested in more (having the urge to grab Sven's butt, her fascination with firemen and such earlier in the strip, or the files she got from marigold) so she does have an adventurous side to her desires, its whether she acts on them or not that may be the source of drama/comedy or inner struggle, and quite frankly a development on her character that may be interesting to see.

I mentioned before I admire Hannelore, whatever Jeph decides to do with her, I can only hope it continues to be beautiful and inspiring like her previous arcs have been
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #11 on: 22 Oct 2014, 15:11 »

From a personal development stand point, this seems a ways off. Hannelore's learned how to give physical intimacy, but she's still shaky on the receiving.

Her ability to go down rabbit holes of anxiety is still enough to leave her paralyzed by recursive worry.

The list goes on. It's enough to say she just isn't ready.

But that's hardly good storytelling.

The moment of truth almost has to come before she's ready. To do otherwise is to give up a shipload :clairedoge: of gag-a-day opportunities. So the only reasonable estimate of how close we are to this story is "Is Jeph itiching to tell it?"

Station seems like, I dunno, the wrong option. He's clearly besotted, but he's also--basically--her dad. While Hanners has affection for her real dad, she's been clear that he was a distant parent. Station was the only father figure she had, or would sometimes allow. Hanners seems to think of him in that frame work.

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #12 on: 22 Oct 2014, 15:44 »

From a personal development stand point, this seems a ways off.
The list goes on. It's enough to say she just isn't ready.

...

But that's hardly good storytelling.

The moment of truth almost has to come before she's ready. the only reasonable estimate of how close we are to this story is "Is Jeph itiching to tell it?"


I don't think anybody is honestly expecting it any time soon, merely its a discussion for when/if it happens. We are also at the mercy of Jeph throwing us an unforeseen curve ball like he sometimes has done lol

Quote

Station seems like, I dunno, the wrong option. He's clearly besotted, but he's also--basically--her dad. While Hanners has affection for her real dad, she's been clear that he was a distant parent. Station was the only father figure she had, or would sometimes allow. Hanners seems to think of him in that frame work.

Well, I think the issue there would also be that while Hanners might look at station in that frame work, station seemed to have a different view of it. He did seem a bit more leaning towards "if you love them let them go" kind of approach when it came to Hanners, so essentially it's an unrequited love type of deal at best. I don't see it working either. If Jeph ever pairs Hannelore up at all, I think it will be with a yet to be included new character, with his/her/it's respective character development as to why it would be a good match (or not, she also can learn about failed relationships, nobody said she has to have a successful one either)

Either way, probably a long ways to go before it happens, again, barring any Jeph curve balls
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #13 on: 22 Oct 2014, 23:14 »

Either way, probably a long ways to go before it happens, again, barring any Jeph curve balls
I think a Hannelore relationship would be about the last thing we'll ever see in QC. Literally. As in the final panel of the final strip once Jeph decided to end the comic. Hannelore's dreams and striving to become a 'normal' person is one of the cornerstones of the comic (together with Marten's life) and to all of a sudden put her in a normal relationship would, once the initial drama/comedy settles, quite frankly not be very interesting. She'd just be another girl and we've got quite enough of those already. To the point where Penelope and Cosette are almost out of the comic, and they are arguable the most 'normal' girls in the cast.
Anyway, I don't think we'll see Hannelore in a relationship until maybe another couple of years have passed in comic. Which means at least 8-10 years in real life.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #14 on: 22 Oct 2014, 23:40 »

Either way, probably a long ways to go before it happens, again, barring any Jeph curve balls
I think a Hannelore relationship would be about the last thing we'll ever see in QC. Literally. As in the final panel of the final strip once Jeph decided to end the comic. Hannelore's dreams and striving to become a 'normal' person is one of the cornerstones of the comic (together with Marten's life) and to all of a sudden put her in a normal relationship would, once the initial drama/comedy settles, quite frankly not be very interesting. She'd just be another girl and we've got quite enough of those already. To the point where Penelope and Cosette are almost out of the comic, and they are arguable the most 'normal' girls in the cast.
Anyway, I don't think we'll see Hannelore in a relationship until maybe another couple of years have passed in comic. Which means at least 8-10 years in real life.

A relationship doesn't have to make Hanners "normal." Whatever normal is.

There's a certain logic to holding out Cosette and Pen2 as "normal" but the fact is they are merely one dimensional. We don't see much out of them because they aren't particularly deep characters. Cosette started out as someone whose entire character was in being accident prone. Now, she's just kinda there. Pen2's entire schtick was "Dammit I am NOT PIZZA GIRL!" Pretty much her entire personality is summed up right there.

This doesn't make either useless. The only character we can be sure we'll never see again is Sara. Jeph likes having a large cast because it gives him plenty to work with if he gets tired of using a character. Out of the current cast, however, Pen2 and Cosette are the least interesting. Mostly, IMO because they are the least neurotic (Barring Momo, but she's the straightman to several characters). I doubt an actual relationship would make Hannelore less neurotic. At least not so much that she stops being useful.

We've yet to see a relationship cure neurosis in this comic. Hanners won't be the first.

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #15 on: 23 Oct 2014, 04:38 »

Either way, probably a long ways to go before it happens, again, barring any Jeph curve balls
I think a Hannelore relationship would be about the last thing we'll ever see in QC. Literally. As in the final panel of the final strip once Jeph decided to end the comic. Hannelore's dreams and striving to become a 'normal' person is one of the cornerstones of the comic (together with Marten's life) and to all of a sudden put her in a normal relationship would, once the initial drama/comedy settles, quite frankly not be very interesting. She'd just be another girl and we've got quite enough of those already. To the point where Penelope and Cosette are almost out of the comic, and they are arguable the most 'normal' girls in the cast.
Anyway, I don't think we'll see Hannelore in a relationship until maybe another couple of years have passed in comic. Which means at least 8-10 years in real life.

A relationship doesn't have to make Hanners "normal." Whatever normal is.

There's a certain logic to holding out Cosette and Pen2 as "normal" but the fact is they are merely one dimensional. We don't see much out of them because they aren't particularly deep characters. Cosette started out as someone whose entire character was in being accident prone. Now, she's just kinda there. Pen2's entire schtick was "Dammit I am NOT PIZZA GIRL!" Pretty much her entire personality is summed up right there.

This doesn't make either useless. The only character we can be sure we'll never see again is Sara. Jeph likes having a large cast because it gives him plenty to work with if he gets tired of using a character. Out of the current cast, however, Pen2 and Cosette are the least interesting. Mostly, IMO because they are the least neurotic (Barring Momo, but she's the straightman to several characters). I doubt an actual relationship would make Hannelore less neurotic. At least not so much that she stops being useful.

We've yet to see a relationship cure neurosis in this comic. Hanners won't be the first.
My point was that I think Hannelore has to reach some form of 'normality' by overcoming a lot of her neuroses before she'll even try to go into a relationship. Or at least most of them. But as I said, that will take a long time, even in comic we're probably talking years, before she'll allow a boy into her life.
And I totally agree with you that Penelope & Cosette are the least interesting, partly because they are the least developed characters and partly because they haven't really had any neuroses to speak of even when they are onscreen. Which becomes a circle: No onscreen time because they aren't very interesting because they haven't had enough time on screen to develop any neuroses etc. As for Cosette's accident-proneness, it hasn't been a factor in any strip since she had her basic training in 1758 (unless you count the wardrobe malfunction in 2629). I take it that she has stabilized a bit after finding a good boyfriend who has made her slow down a bit and made her not worry so much about life.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #16 on: 23 Oct 2014, 07:17 »

A relationship doesn't have to make Hanners "normal." Whatever normal is.
(snip)
We've yet to see a relationship cure neurosis in this comic. Hanners won't be the first.

No, of course it doesn't. But when you stop to consider that she's repeatedly mentioned wanting to be "normal," it's typically in the context of some small, everyday thing that most of us take for granted (like hugging), and the ease with which we take them for granted (one does not, typically, freak out over whether someone sitting on their couch may or may not have had a boner, for instance).

And while relationships (romantic or platonic) don't cure neuroses (in or out of the QC-verse), they have invariably done one thing, at least in QC: they lead to growth. Hanners has already grown a lot thanks to her relationships since coming to Northampton, and has said as much. I know she doesn't need a romantic relationship, as such. But if she wants one -- and we've seen signs that she does -- it'd be nice to see her get to a point where she feels it's possible.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #17 on: 23 Oct 2014, 09:52 »

My point was that I think Hannelore has to reach some form of 'normality' by overcoming a lot of her neuroses before she'll even try to go into a relationship. Or at least most of them. But as I said, that will take a long time, even in comic we're probably talking years, before she'll allow a boy into her life.
And I totally agree with you that Penelope & Cosette are the least interesting, partly because they are the least developed characters and partly because they haven't really had any neuroses to speak of even when they are onscreen. Which becomes a circle: No onscreen time because they aren't very interesting because they haven't had enough time on screen to develop any neuroses etc. As for Cosette's accident-proneness, it hasn't been a factor in any strip since she had her basic training in 1758 (unless you count the wardrobe malfunction in 2629). I take it that she has stabilized a bit after finding a good boyfriend who has made her slow down a bit and made her not worry so much about life.

I approach everything from the pov of a writer, first. As a writer, having Hanners pursue a relationship when she is ready is dull. It limits options for conflict and thus limits options to show character growth in action, rather than just tell the audience how the character grew.

This is a gag-a-day comic. Showing an unready Hanners trying to date has more potential gags than the everyday adventures of a perfectly "normal" couple. We're all bags of neurosis deep down in the secret places we don't like to talk about at parties. We want him on that wall. We need him on that wall...

Sorry. That one got away from me. Where was I?

Right. Conflict. Interesting vs. Normal, Ninth Circuit, 2014. Jeph has gobs of characters he can tell stories about the trials and tribulations of the slightly disturbed as they navigate love, loss, coffee, and the last blush of youth. He only has one profoundly disturbed character.

To circle bake Cosy and Pen2. Hanners was a 1D as those two. She was a caricature of OCD, dialed all the way to 11. She had a few visual cues that were at odd with her hypochondria, but several of those were quickly eliminated. There's a lot of gags to be found if you take anything and dial it up beyond reason.  Hanners rides the ragged edge of too much to take. If her attitudes towards it, or the way she was drawn and dressed, were slightly less open and vulnerable, I don't think she'd be very likable. As someone said in another thread, she's the Woobie. The designated sympathetic victim. And she's very effective at it.

Jeph uses HANNELORE. It's very effective.

So, Hanners ended up in pretty much the opposite of the recursive not interesting loop. Because of that, she gained in complexity. Hanners is the woobie, but only because she wants to be. Her intimate skill is greater than Faye's. She's simply isn't comfortable using it. That happened because it made a good punchline. But it's developed into a character trait. Hanners is not someone you want to make angry.

Jeph did a doodle of Hannelore appearing to fan girl/lust after Lt. Cmdr Data. One dimensionally, that's a good sight gag. But like Leo DiCaprio, we have to deeper. Hanners IS Data. In a number of ways she's superior to those around her, but she'd give all of that up to be "human." In her own, weird way, she's the most human member of the cast. My belief is, should Hanners ever get her equivalent of an emotion chip, it won't change her on a fundamental level, just as Data grew without becoming something different. The lesson of Data, and hopefully Hanners, being that--like the lion, scarecrow, tin man and Dorothy had everything they needed from the start--both were "human" all along.

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #18 on: 23 Oct 2014, 10:10 »

I approach everything from the pov of a writer, first. As a writer, having Hanners pursue a relationship when she is ready is dull. It limits options for conflict and thus limits options to show character growth in action, rather than just tell the audience how the character grew.

This is a gag-a-day comic. Showing an unready Hanners trying to date has more potential gags than the everyday adventures of a perfectly "normal" couple. We're all bags of neurosis deep down in the secret places we don't like to talk about at parties. We want him on that wall. We need him on that wall...

To that I'd add: One: if you wait 'til you're ready, nothing happens. Ever. Because you're not really ready, and you don't have everything you'd like to have, or sometimes even need to have. Ever. The stuff that changes us and makes us grow typically ends up in leap of faith territory. The growth specifically comes in typically when you're going outside your comfort zone. So if a Hannelore relationship's in the offing, she won't be ready. At best, she'll be ready-ish, knowing she's not 100% prepared, but prepared enough that it's a calculated risk.

To circle bake Cosy and Pen2. Hanners was a 1D as those two.

Now I'm picturing Cosette and P2 in a springform pan.  :clairedoge:

Jeph did a doodle of Hannelore appearing to fan girl/lust after Lt. Cmdr Data. One dimensionally, that's a good sight gag. But like Leo DiCaprio, we have to deeper. Hanners IS Data. In a number of ways she's superior to those around her, but she'd give all of that up to be "human." In her own, weird way, she's the most human member of the cast. My belief is, should Hanners ever get her equivalent of an emotion chip, it won't change her on a fundamental level, just as Data grew without becoming something different. The lesson of Data, and hopefully Hanners, being that--like the lion, scarecrow, tin man and Dorothy had everything they needed from the start--both were "human" all along.

Very well put.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #19 on: 21 Aug 2015, 02:39 »

So? Is Svennalore a thing now? I'm wondering because Jeph really does seem to be vaguely looking in that direction.

I would say that it would be at least a long-term project as Clairten for many of the same reasons. Most notably, the female protagonist's anxiety issues and the male protagonist's romantic history (including a recent and painful major break-up) leaving him feel unwilling to pursue a possible new relationship. Naturally, it would be initially more like a pair of cute high-schoolers, given Hannelore's lack of experience and the shallowness of all of Sven's previous 'relationships'. In both cases, this might be their first real relationship.

I am aware that I could be wandering close to the 'no shipping' rule here but I would opine that Jeph has given enough explicit indicators for this to be a legitimate area for discussion.

[edit]
I wonder what particular combination of meds allowed Hannelore to do 'sexy' so effectively when she was first introduced?

Mostly, it was Jeph getting a more solid grip on the character and the way he wanted to portray her. That said, I can't gainsay that there was something fascinating about the way she was initially drawn and characterised when first introduced. I'm wondering if, one day, there will be a call-back to that look when Sven sees a picture of her as she was then and is shocked: "That's you? I used to see you in the bar all the time and thought that you were hot!" A beat and then: "I just called you hot, didn't I?"
« Last Edit: 21 Aug 2015, 03:24 by BenRG »
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #20 on: 21 Aug 2015, 06:12 »

[edit]
I wonder what particular combination of meds allowed Hannelore to do 'sexy' so effectively when she was first introduced?

Global Moderator Comment Actually you were perfectly within shipping rules. This bit, however, is not okay, and comes dangerously close to fetishizing a mental illness, albeit not quite there yet. Best to just curtail it here. The rest of the discussion can continue provided it doesn't get out of hand.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #21 on: 21 Aug 2015, 09:28 »

In any case it's better character development if his interaction with Hannelore teaches Sven how to be Just a Friend with a woman.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #22 on: 21 Aug 2015, 14:12 »

It would be an interesting time
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #23 on: 21 Aug 2015, 14:41 »

So, anybody wanna ship Hannelore with Bubbles? 

I kid, I kid.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #24 on: 21 Aug 2015, 17:11 »

So, anybody wanna ship Hannelore with Bubbles? 

I kid, I kid.

Only for the sake of the only possible portmanteau:

Hannibles.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #25 on: 21 Aug 2015, 17:54 »

Or, of course, Bubbelore (of course, as JWHouk could tell you, that will only be used in Wisconsin)*


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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #26 on: 21 Aug 2015, 18:55 »

Hannelore as a robosexual makes the most sense.  AIs offer a sterility and safety that humans can't match.

Hanners was at her most interesting when she was an eccentric loner working a job catered to her OCD.  Take away the remaining eccentricities and she stops being funny and becomes as boring as Penelope.

And Penelope was more than just "I am not Pizza Girl."  She was the book obsessed nerd, but Claire usurped her position.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #27 on: 21 Aug 2015, 19:16 »

For me, the most interesting aspect of HE-C as a character was how she worked through her hangups by helping others. And when I take a second or third look at that bar bathroom introductory scene through the filter of what Jeph's shown is about her since then, she looks ... terrified. Those "really strong meds" may be stomping all over her inhibitions, but part of her brain is in "what the hell am I DOING?" mode.
« Last Edit: 21 Aug 2015, 23:02 by DSL »
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #28 on: 21 Aug 2015, 19:38 »

Methinks that any love Sven feels towards Hanners is strictly platonic in nature, even if she might grab his butt at some point.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #29 on: 21 Aug 2015, 22:13 »

Howabout Fubbles?



yes, I know, as a Mod I should know better, but life's too short to not have some fun!!
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #30 on: 22 Aug 2015, 06:17 »

In any case it's better character development if his interaction with Hannelore teaches Sven how to be Just a Friend with a woman.

It would start that way in any case. A lot depends on how much work Jeph wants to put into it. However, it could turn into QC's answer to When Harry Met Sally - Can a man and a woman who find each other attractive just be friends?
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #31 on: 22 Aug 2015, 07:26 »

We've already had that answer with Faye and Marten.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #32 on: 23 Aug 2015, 04:35 »

Quote
Bubbelore
Quote
Fubbles
Quote
Svennalore
Quote
Clairten

I will remind older members, and point out to newer ones (though I actually say it in the rules which you've all read, right?) that I see the use of portmanteau terms like these as dehumanising, and thus an indication that shipping is getting out of hand and heading for the forbidden zone.  As a quick indication of their desirability, how many of your friends do you refer to in this way?
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #33 on: 23 Aug 2015, 09:16 »

The fact that they set many regulars's teeth on edge is also relevant. Even if only a third of the people in the room react, you'd still stop scraping your fingernails against the chalkboard.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #34 on: 23 Aug 2015, 14:48 »

Part of that is we don't want go back to what I call 'The Great Shipping Wars' from a few years back.  It wasn't helpful, and was part of the reason Jeph, at one stage, threatened to shut down the Forum.

Hell, even I got a week lnng ban in that when the then Mods came down on us like a ton of bricks  (I wasn't a Mod back then as you can gather)
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #35 on: 23 Aug 2015, 19:39 »

Quote
Bubbelore
Quote
Fubbles
Quote
Svennalore
Quote
Clairten

I will remind older members, and point out to newer ones (though I actually say it in the rules which you've all read, right?) that I see the use of portmanteau terms like these as dehumanising, and thus an indication that shipping is getting out of hand and heading for the forbidden zone.  As a quick indication of their desirability, how many of your friends do you refer to in this way?

An interesting thought.  Has anyone ever adopted a romantic partner's name as part of their own?

(click to show/hide)
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #36 on: 23 Aug 2015, 20:08 »

A former friend has a collection of names. She's only been Married twice, so I'm not sure where one of them came from. Whenever her legal last name changed, she moved the old last name into her middle name.

When she got married the second time, she was uncertain whether she should change her name, or if he should change his. She, eventually, settled on the standard, but as a compromise, he offered to append her last name to his middle name.

Well, it turns out that, for unknown reasons, the clerk in San Diego county said, you can't do that. If you make a name change due to marriage, you can't take part of a name. You have to take all of it.

I don't know if this is actually the law, or if the clerk was high, but the clerk did not yield. The husband kept his promise though. So his middle name is, among other things, Anne.

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #37 on: 24 Aug 2015, 00:04 »

It's easier in the UK: your name as an adult is simply what you say it is.  Having an official document (deed poll) to back it up is helpful for some purposes, and free.  (There are extra steps to be taken in the case of children, as one might expect.)
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #38 on: 24 Aug 2015, 04:34 »

I know a couple whose last names were Green and Wolfe, and when they married they both changed their last name to Greenwolfe.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #39 on: 24 Aug 2015, 04:57 »

Well sure, because that surname is fucking badass.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #40 on: 24 Aug 2015, 07:45 »

I had a boss whose first namesounded like but was a different spelling of Sierra, and after her divorce decided to change her last name to Nevada. It's like she said "fuck it, I'm gonna be a mountain range dammit".
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #41 on: 24 Aug 2015, 08:06 »

It's easier in the UK

Yup. I know a Starksfield and Wood who married and became Starkwood, which seems to me much nicer and more interesting than either of the original names.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #42 on: 24 Aug 2015, 11:32 »

I wish I had a name that combined nicely.

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #43 on: 24 Aug 2015, 12:42 »

It's easier in the UK: your name as an adult is simply what you say it is.  Having an official document (deed poll) to back it up is helpful for some purposes, and free.  (There are extra steps to be taken in the case of children, as one might expect.)

I believe it is the case, for marriages, that your name is what you say it is in SD County. But the kicker here is that if both persons change a part of their name, they have to change it to the same thing.

So Bob David Greene and Sara Margaret Wolfe can be Bob David Greenewolfe and Sara Margaret Greenewolfe or Bob David Stormaggedon and Sara Margaret Stormaggedon. If Sara wants to keep her family name, that seems allowed, so Bob David Greene and Sara Wolfe Greene is ok.

But Bob Greene Wolfe and Sara Wolfe Greene would not be okay because changes were made by both parties and they both did not make the same changes. That's the logic that was enforced. She changed her last name and middle name. Had he changed nothing that would be okay. But if he changes anything, it has to match what she changed, and vice versa. Seems silly as hell, to me.

With relevance to the question of people combining names, he seems to find it embarrassing as hell that his middle name contains Anne, so the point still stands. I'm probably being judgemental, but that seems to knock a bit of shine off of the gesture. Why take her name, if you aren't going to be happy to have it?

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #44 on: 03 Sep 2015, 21:02 »

For what it's worth, I think Hanners has some incredibly good relationships going. 

With Dale and Marigold and Momo, and Faye, and Marten, and Winslow, and Station, and Dora, and Pintsize, and even maybe soon May ....  I mean, come on.  A whole bunch of people who think the world of her and act to make things better for her - and she for them as well.  Her relationships with her domineering mother and distant, obsessive-but-brilliant father may be rocky at times, but there's no question that they care about her and respect her. 

Seriously, look at it.  That's a lot of really good relationships.  That's a lot of care and respect and mutual emotional support and people doing good for each other.  It's different, but it's not worse. 

And besides.  Hanners is Hanners.  She wants what she wants and fears what she fears, and has to live with that. For the time being and possibly all of the foreseeable future, romance would be too big and scary and if it went as far as, say, holding hands, creepily unsanitary. 

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #45 on: 04 Sep 2015, 00:54 »

Good post.

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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #46 on: 05 Sep 2015, 12:23 »

I just realized that, had we combined names when we married, my last name would now be Roboto. *sigh* I wish I'd thought of it then.
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Re: Hannelore Elicott-Chatham - The First Relationship
« Reply #47 on: 05 Sep 2015, 13:52 »

Domo arigato.
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