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Punch Faye's head off of her shoulders and use it as a basketball

2 (4.3%)

Have a nervous breakdown and sob (or the Synthetic equivalent) on Faye's shoulder

0 (0%)

Observe a chilly silence and be happy to have that

7 (15.2%)

Deliver a monologue to Faye about how dangerous she is and how she understands Faye wants nothing to do with her

2 (4.3%)

Act like a scolded puppy-dog and hover around Faye, being sour and biting but hoping for Faye to talk to her

3 (6.5%)

Act like an adult and apologise for losing her temper (Yeah, I know, unlikely)

15 (32.6%)

Avoid Faye like the plague, going so far as to lock herself in the supply closet whenever Faye is in their work-space

1 (2.2%)

Quit and apply for a new, peaceful gig as a DORD

5 (10.9%)

None of the above.

0 (0%)

Install herself in a Firefly-class transport ship and become a big damn hero

11 (23.9%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Voting closed: 15 Nov 2015, 12:28

[Lubricus]

I stand by my assertion that Momo in her current chassis is basically "teen Momo".  Though she may have skills and knowledge that allow her to interact better in an adult world, and hold her job at the library, she is still growing as a person.  She still can't grok how some things work, but isn't the sort who would shut out voices (like May) who offer a different perspective.  At some point, if the comic continues long enough, she might migrate to another chassis when she feels more "mature".

Something like this? 

[osaka]

I could see May on that one tho.

[swapna]

I stand by my assertion that Momo in her current chassis is basically "teen Momo".  Though she may have skills and knowledge that allow her to interact better in an adult world, and hold her job at the library, she is still growing as a person.  She still can't grok how some things work, but isn't the sort who would shut out voices (like May) who offer a different perspective.  At some point, if the comic continues long enough, she might migrate to another chassis when she feels more "mature".

I don't know, growing as a person and hearing dissenting voices is something I hope I will do at all ages, even though I'm really not a teenager any more. She is young (afair, she's between two and three years, comic time), but AI learn and mature faster than humans.

May, if you can't tell the difference between people being forced into the black economy by circumstances and outright embezzlement to obtain non-necessity goods, then you need to pay more attention at the support group meetings.

Yeah, but she wanted to be a fighter jet. Maybe she qualified, but the military program stopped before she could get in? Or she was outright refused for "not being human"? There are similarities

In some ways, Momo is a 'Trust Fund Activist': Someone with good intentions and who genuinely wants to help but whose social background renders her unable to really grasp the true nature of the issues. As a consequence, she comes across as condescending or pious to those who actually do live with the issues.

I think you hit it on the head, there, with "trust fund activist" but she is actually not in a position to not know. She visits the meetings with May, and either she doesn't listen or doesn't believe the criminal AI (her first reaction to May in Dales glasses was to threaten her - yes, May was herself, but threatening her with trying to kill her? Isn't that a bit much for a few insults?)

[ZoeB]

In some ways, Momo is a 'Trust Fund Activist': Someone with good intentions and who genuinely wants to help but whose social background renders her unable to really grasp the true nature of the issues. As a consequence, she comes across as condescending or pious to those who actually do live with the issues.

Remind me to tell you about my reactions during a conversation with the chair of the Sydney Sex Workers Collective some time. I make Momo look positively worldly. But like her, I listen. And like her, I hear. You'd be surprised how easy it is to relate to someone the polar opposite of "goody-goody" if you do that.

I always did see sex work as just another profession, intellectually. But talking with, and being friends with, sex workers aligned my heart with my head, despite my appallingly conventional and conservative background. Condescension is something I try to avoid. Going all pedagogical likewise. I fail of course, but at least I try, there's hope for me yet, so I'm told.

To repeat - the key is to try not to be an asshole. Do that, and you can't go very wrong. Don't do it, and piety or libertinism, they're just different styles of living. Actually, same if you do avoid it, "goody-goody" is more a personal style than anything else.

[J]

how open-minded momo is really remains to be seen.

on the one hand, she's not being an asshole about bubsy & the fighters, but on the other, said non-assholedom does appear to be contingent on finding some way to fit them into an acceptable slot in her existing ideological framework.

the real test will be if she asks bubsy about her 'reasons' for joining the military, only to get the answer "Because I wanted to.". likewise, if she were to find out that some of the battlebots do have other options, but chose that profession purely because it appeals to them.

how would she react to AIs who live lives she ideologically disapproves of without some justification she can accept?

[cesium133]

I stand by my assertion that Momo in her current chassis is basically "teen Momo".  Though she may have skills and knowledge that allow her to interact better in an adult world, and hold her job at the library, she is still growing as a person.  She still can't grok how some things work, but isn't the sort who would shut out voices (like May) who offer a different perspective.  At some point, if the comic continues long enough, she might migrate to another chassis when she feels more "mature".

Something like this? 

Without noticing that it's about 1000 off, before clicking I had thought you were suggesting this...

[BenRG]

Something like this? 

Without noticing that it's about 1000 off, before clicking I had thought you were suggesting this...

Speaking seriously, the second option is very much what I would expect an 'adult' Momo chassis would look like.

[katsmeat]

The purpose of the Bechdale test  is to make a real world point.  It (or the mechdaletest) doesn't seem to have any relevance in a world without a community of AIs
Passing or failing it when applied to AI's isn't really a thing.

the thing about the bechdale test that people have a tendency to miss is that it's really only meaningful in aggregate, as a generalized 'average' for the roll of female characters in fiction. the question of whether or not any given individual work passes it is completely meaningless and irrelevant.

remember, Gravity & Pacific Rim both fail the test, but Twilight is bechdale approved.

I agree completely.  Examining media with Bechdale is  very much like measuring a person's fitness with their BMI - they're both simple and easy-to-apply tests that can provide some insight. But can also be very misleading.

[Is it cold in here?]

Yes, I said "people". They're not homo sapiens and not made of proteins but so what?

you've phrased that as though you expect someone to dispute it.

Every now and then somebody here does just that.

They invariably turn out to also be racist about carbon-based people. Go figure. After they reveal that they don't last long.

Over in the QC world, AnthroPCs used to be referred to as "pets", and it took a long struggle and a constitutional amendment to get them even legal rights. Legal protection we've seen does not prevent job discrimination.

EDIT:
I got some feedback about this post which combined firmness and courtesy.

So, in the hope of undoing overstatements:
- The next person who registers and questions the status of QC AIs deserves to be treated as non-racist until they prove otherwise
- Everyone here now is being a DHB about fictional silicon-based people

[J]

in comic-time, that 'long struggle' from pets to citizens has been what, 18 months or so?

[BenRG]

in comic-time, that 'long struggle' from pets to citizens has been what, 18 months or so?

That's a good question; we don't know how long ago this happened or how long ago sentient AIs were invented. We know that Station existed long enough ago that he was able to be Hannelore's best friend when she was around 13-ish (about 10 years ago, in-universe). Station also noted that most of Elicott-Chatham Industries' major in-house AIs were named by Hannelore at around this time (and that she was very literal in her name choices).

However, I can't see Dr Elicott-Chatham allowing an experimental AI to work with his severely mentally-disturbed daughter, so it is possible that AIs existed long before that in the QC-verse; long enough for the doctor to have confidence in Station's stability and his ability to handle Hannelore's needs. It is quite possible that the main human characters went through their entire teen and college years with AIs and Synthetics being an everyday part of life and AI civil rights being the hot-button campus debate flashpoint during their freshman and sophomore years. Sam, on the other hand, is young enough that a world without Synthetics as her everyday neighbours and peers is as strange to her as the stories I hear from my older relatives of Britain before the large-scale West Indian immigration of the 1950s and 1960s.

Given the number of Synthetics we see who still have pet-like functions and attitudes, I'd say that a major rights shake-up that occurred around 5-8 in-universe years ago is plausible in story terms. Certainly recent enough that some humans still resent Synthetics being considered equal to people and recently enough that some Companion Synthetics still think 'pet'.

Certainly recently enough that Bubbles may remember hearing some in her chain of command criticising her squad-buddies for befriending her as it was like 'personifying your squad's Hummer or something'.

[J]

actually, if i can be permitted to enjoy a bit of a meta-moment, the progression in the depiction of the robot characters in QC has been kind of an interesting case-study in the evolution of long-form fiction & how it changes along with the author. the Anthro-PCs were originally just silly comic relief sidekicks who existed to offset some of the strip's heavy drama & make technology related puns. but at some point it seems jeph started thinking a bit more deeply about the fictional world he had created and the roll of the machine-men within it. their narrative roll in the story shifted to reflect their social roll in the setting.

then at some point, i think jeph started thinking about things a bit more about the sociopolitical & philosophical ramifications of AI, and the depiction shifted again to reflect that.

makes me wonder if we'll ever see 'ol PT410X again. how would he fit into the new narrative paradigm?

[MrWoodchip]

I was reading through some of the archive and I happened upon this strip: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=668, so I guess it really has been less than 2 years since AI got equal rights.

I also can't remember enough HTML to embed the link in text.

[Kugai]

So much for her Lawyer then.

[osaka]

Her Lawyer clearly has no idea how to lawyer properly.

[Tova]

... said non-assholedom does appear to be contingent on finding some way to fit them into an acceptable slot in her existing ideological framework.

At the very real danger of sounding like a broken record, you really are describing the behaviour of every person on the planet, including yours and mine.

[Method of Madness]

I also can't remember enough HTML to embed the link in text.

Code: [Select]

[url=http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=668]text[/url]

[Perfectly Reasonable]

AIs got lawyers!

Dogs got bars!

[Method of Madness]

Is it a bar for dogs or a bar where dogs are welcome? Either way, I WANNA GO.

[DSL]

Maybe it's an association of lawyers for dogs, or lawyers who are dogs, or some amalgamation of the above.

[Zebediah]

It's a sausage bar. They serve the finest sausages. Humans can only eat there if the dogs say it's okay.

[Morituri]

Ok, if I had known what was coming today, I would not have read this comic while eating breakfast. 

Had you known what was coming today, why would you have read the comic at all? 

[chaospersonified]

Comic.

Lol. Momo trying to get into the robot fights is like me, a baby-faced white boy trying to find a pot dealer. Everyone assumes the police are involved.

[Undrneath]

in comic-time, that 'long struggle' from pets to citizens has been what, 18 months or so?

However, I can't see Dr Elicott-Chatham allowing an experimental AI to work with his severely mentally-disturbed daughter,.

Actually that is just the sort of absent minded thing I would expect from Dr E-C.

[Is it cold in here?]

It could have happened more or less by accident as well. Station has normal operational reasons to communicate with his inhabitants. Simply keeping channels open to Hannelore would have required him to debug her.

[BenRG]

Corpse Witch fails at misdirection. Of course, in her defence, it's hard to keep a secret when your loud-mouthed employees insist on chatting about it LOUDLY!

Seriously, they need to have at least one or two rooms in the building that look like a skate park if they're serious about keeping it secret. The fact that that don't suggests that everyone (probably including lots of people in authority) finds it convenient to pretend it is a secret and just not talk about it.

[J]

oh, is momo gonna try to lecture them? because telling her to mind her own business could be a nice bonding moment for faye and bubs.

[BenRG]

oh, is momo gonna try to lecture them? because telling her to mind her own business could be a nice bonding moment for faye and bubs.

It's more likely that she'll deliver a borderline-hyserical rant that emphasises just how scared she is of the thought of humans and AIs being adversaries.

[TheCollector]

Is it a bar for dogs or a bar where dogs are welcome? Either way, I WANNA GO.

C'mon man! Rowlf! Rowlf from the Muppets. Dogs owned a bar for years. Duh. lol

[Tova]

It's hard to guess exactly what Bubbles' reaction to seeing Momo will be, but it will probably be closer to "what are you doing here" than to delight.

oh, is momo gonna try to lecture them? because telling her to mind her own business could be a nice bonding moment for faye and bubs.

I don't think so. She did say "I wish I knew what [the reasons for her engaging in military conflicts] were," only two comics ago. So that could well be why she's there.

It's more likely that she'll deliver a borderline-hyserical rant that emphasises just how scared she is of the thought of humans and AIs being adversaries.

Wow, you two really dislike her, hey?

[TheCollector]

Y'know, this comic has me wondering if the Robot Fighting arena is even a secret or if like everyone actually knows about it but they just go, eh, why bother them. Cause they're not so good at keeping said secret from the looks of it.

[Storel]

Love the look on Momo's face. She is not buying "skateboarder slang" for a nanosecond.

[BenRG]

It's more likely that she'll deliver a borderline-hyserical rant that emphasises just how scared she is of the thought of humans and AIs being adversaries.

Wow, you two really dislike her, hey?

You see hate where there is none. I was very disappointed that Momo was initially more worried about her ideology than Bubbles' reasons for her actions and I'm fairly sure that she's still waiting to hear Bubbles' excuse for her 'unacceptable behaviour'.

However, that aside, you failed to read my post properly. I strongly expect that the problem Momo has with Bubbles' long-ago life choice is more informed by her own fears of human-AI antagonism than anything else and I'm expecting this to be reflected in her approach to this. I wouldn't be surprised if a worried Faye and Bubbles are more worried about Momo, at least at first.


[edit]
Fix'd tags

[Tova]

However, that aside, you failed to read my post properly. I strongly expect that the problem Momo has with Bubbles' long-ago life choice is more informed by her own fears of human-AI antagonism than anything else and I'm expecting this to be reflected in her approach to this. I wouldn't be surprised if a worried Faye and Bubbles are more worried about Momo, at least at first.

I appreciate and agree with this analysis more than your choice of the term "borderline-hysterical" in your previous post, which, if it didn't indicate hate, certainly didn't indicate any level of respect.

Edit because I can't stick around to continue to conversation: I am hoping that next week she, once again, surprises in her approach to the situation. I don't think she's getting enough credit.

[J]

Wow, you two really dislike her, hey?

not at all, i just find her judgemental attitude regarding the whole thing to be a bit annoying

[ZoeB]

not at all, i just find her judgemental attitude regarding the whole thing to be a bit annoying

*Chuckle*

I'm having to make a conscious effort not to identify with Momo. While I look nothing like her, personality-wise those who know me in 3D have been known to say "is she modelled after you?"

Oh, and not that I find you annoying, J, quite the opposite, it's good to have you around and to hear your views, they're interesting and thought-provoking. But perhaps you should think about whether
i just find her judgemental attitude regarding the whole thing to be a bit annoying
might seem to some to possibly be maybe just a tadge... judgmental?
 

[Is it cold in here?]

A bluenose who disapproves because she wants to dictate the morals of others?
An activist who is terrified that robots enacting degrading stereotypes will undermine difficult and continuing work for equality?

There's room for argument whether there's even a difference there. I think there is, and that Momo is the second of the two, but how on earth do you distinguish which is which from the outside?

We could see something unusual from Momo. She's been scared before but this runs deep.

[Akima]

I appreciate and agree with this analysis more than your choice of the term "borderline-hysterical" in your previous post, which, if it didn't indicate hate, certainly didn't indicate any level of respect.

Well... Momo's chassis presents a female appearance, so I suppose it was inevitable that "hysterical" would be thrown at her eventually... 

It seems the robots have forgotten the first rule of Fight Club. And the second.

[TheEvilDog]

It seems the robots have forgotten the first rule of Fight Club. And the second.

Well to be fair, that's the human Fight Club.
Robot Fight Club is a bit different in that they don't have Meat Loaf hanging about to get his skull smashed open.

[snubnose]

I also can't remember enough HTML to embed the link in text.

That wouldnt help you one bit, of course HTML would be blocked.

[Tova]

A bluenose who disapproves because she wants to dictate the morals of others?
An activist who is terrified that robots enacting degrading stereotypes will undermine difficult and continuing work for equality?

There's room for argument whether there's even a difference there. I think there is, and that Momo is the second of the two, but how on earth do you distinguish which is which from the outside?

I'm probably simplifying, but for me, that basic difference is motivation.

The first is motivated by a wish for power, or a feeling of superiority to others.
The second is motivated by a genuine desire to make the world a better place.

How is this visible from the outside? As Zoe has already posted, the visible aspect of this is empathy. Or, as she eloquently expressed in another post, the accent is on "good."

Momo surely ticks all of the boxes behind door #2. She has very clear goals, and what's more they are for the betterment of her kind, not simply of herself.

I find that admirable.

I would like to think (but am not necessarily seeing, at least not obviously) that those people who bash Marten for drifting and having no goals would admire Momo for basically being his polar opposite, at least in this respect.

I remember a couple of people bashing Claire when she first appeared as well. For similar reasons. She was obviously passionate about her vocation, and people initially got their noses out of joint when she expressed it.

/brain dump

[MrWoodchip]

I also can't remember enough HTML to embed the link in text.

That wouldnt help you one bit, of course HTML would be blocked.

I also can't remember enough HTML to realise that the tags aren't HTML.

[pwhodges]

They're called BB Code - Bulletin Board Code.

[Method of Madness]

It seems the robots have forgotten the first rule of Fight Club. And the second.

Well to be fair, that's the human Fight Club.
Robot Fight Club is a bit different in that they don't have Meat Loaf hanging about to get his skull smashed open.

HIS NAME IS ROBOT PAULSON

[J]

ugh

[Detachable Felix]

Is no-one else hoping Momo's come there to fight? She's small, but she could probably kick ass like River. Not a power in the 'verse can stop her

[Zebediah]

I wonder if her electrical discharge is a legal weapon in robot fights. Her ring name could be "The Electro-Cutie". 

[Kugai]

she shoulda stayed with May.

I wonder if Faye'll vouch for her.

[J]

I wonder if her electrical discharge is a legal weapon in robot fights. Her ring name could be "The Electro-Cutie". 

a much better question is this: how many of her old components got ported over to her current chassis?

[Is it cold in here?]

"He turned to the robot, and said
'You picked a fine time to leave me loose eel' "