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Where is Dora right now?

Waiting for Cossette to be released from the ER
Pacing her apartment, worrying about CoD
Having Quality Personal Time with Tai
Sipping herbal tea at The Secret Bakery (Traitor!)
Passed out on her bed from exhaustion
Wandering the forest crying out: "Faye, Faye! Why hast thou forsaken me?"
Watching porn on her laptop
Fantasising about [Enter Character Name Here]

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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3101 to 3105 (30th November to 4th December 2015)  (Read 26350 times)

sitnspin

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I hope Tai does push Dora back into therapy. I'd like to see more of Corinne.

She's not seeing Dr Corinne. The good doc said she's not seeing anymore of that circle of friends.
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@syleegrrl

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It's a guy, in fact.

EDIT: The question about what Tai ought to say is now eclipsed by the apparent certainty that it will backfire, whatever it is. "Anything you say can and will be used against you".
« Last Edit: 03 Dec 2015, 20:57 by Is it cold in here? »
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RetroRefractive Noodle

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This is hilarious,  it's like I'm watching a nearly identical-to-my-life scene play out in QC.

Spoiler Alert:  I got my head poked back into alignment, and we are still together.   7 years running...

My situation was a bit different.   They'd treat one batch of symptoms find another underlying batch of symptoms treat THAT,  finally once I was in a good head-space from having symptoms managed we were able to work THAT out and the rest gradually dissipated.   
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Is it cold in here?

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Ah, yes, onion diagnosis.
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Thank you, Dr. Karikó.

RetroRefractive Noodle

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Ah, yes, onion diagnosis.

It was quite the pickle.     
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BenRG

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Wow! Add oppositional external reinforcement dependency to Dora's list of issues! She literally needs to know what people are actually suggesting that she do so that she can be sure that she's not doing it!

Things for Tai to do:
  • Assure Dora that following someone's suggestions isn't a sign of moral weaknesses or lack of independence;
  • Assure Dora that she is happy that Dora is going back to her therapist because this is good for Dora;
  • Give Dora a hug; I really think that she needs one right now!
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Reaver

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You didn't say Tai was being manipulative, you suggested she might give an ultimatum. I said ultimatums are inherently manipulative.

And the question, sitnspin, is what would you do in Tai's shoes?

Thwap Dora upside the head with love?
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gopher

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They do deserve each other. Saves other people being involved with two quite terrible people.
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sitnspin

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You didn't say Tai was being manipulative, you suggested she might give an ultimatum. I said ultimatums are inherently manipulative.

And the question, sitnspin, is what would you do in Tai's shoes?

Exactly what she is doing: Express love, concern and support and gently suggest therapy and reiterate the importance of self-care.
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And the question, sitnspin, is what would you do in Tai's shoes?

Thwap Dora upside the head with love?

Thwap her upside the head with something, anyway... :roll:
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CM_albion

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Quote
"Oh My God Dora"

Something a lot of us have been saying for quite some time :P
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Dr. ROFLPWN

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oh fuck it's one of these storylines again
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MrNumbers

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Remember how hard it is for Tai to do the whole monogamy thing? Not because it's not what she wants, but because it's not what she's used to?

What are the odds Tai ends up cheating on Dora just because it's the only way she feels she can pull back from the relationship without having to leave it?
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Omega Entity

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But she used do monogamy and not poly-... you know what? Nevermind. I'm a broken record regarding Jeph's retcon of Tai's relationship preferences.
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sitnspin

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Tai was involved with Bailey who is poly. Tai wanted to be exclusive but Bailey did not. Tai went along with it for a while because it was the only way to be with her. Tai realized it didn't make her happy.
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@syleegrrl

themacnut

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Yeah it's not that Tai couldn't do monogamy, it's that no one in her college social circle wanted to be monogamous. Hence her dating Dora. I doubt she'll cheat, but Dora's issues may well run her off.
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MrNumbers

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But she used do monogamy and not poly-... you know what? Nevermind. I'm a broken record regarding Jeph's retcon of Tai's relationship preferences.

Expletive, expletive, expletive, right, I forgot it was retconn'd.

I apologize and retract my prior musing.
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oh god

Kugai

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I hope Tai is carrying a paper bag, the way Dora's going on I expect her to hyperventilate soon.


For FRAKS SAKE Dora, overanalysing much??!!!!!
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dawolf

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The last couple of strips are really weird from a UK perspective.

You can take meds OR visit a psychiatrist! Those are your options!

Er....what about just talking things through with a friend? I know that 1 in 5 americans are on psychiatric drugs, but that doesn't make it normal for the rest of the world...
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pwhodges

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Even in the UK that's not always the answer, though.  (Says he, who has had therapy, and took a drug for a short period at the same time.)
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Welu

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Careful with the word "normal" there. "Common" may have been a better and less ableist choice.

A friend is likely not a mental health professional, and if they are it's not fair to take advantage of a friendship to get free mental health care. Talking things through or just having someone listen casually can be really therapeutic and helpful so for some people it is enough. However others might need or want the help to be gained from someone specifically trained. By talking things through with a friend, Dora has realised therapy might be a good idea, even if she is reluctant to go to one.

~
From someone in the UK recently off long-term antidepressants and seeing a psychotherapist.

Edit: Quick Google says that in England alone, depending on where, any amount from 1 in 5 to 1 in 23 adults were on antidepressants in 2013.

J

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And the question, sitnspin, is what would you do in Tai's shoes?

Thwap Dora upside the head with love?

Thwap her upside the head with something, anyway... :roll:

careful doing that in public, you don't want to be charged with indecent exposure
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Omega Entity

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Quote from: dawolf link=topic=33157.msg1340608#msg1340608 date=1449260076
The last couple of strips are really weird from a UK perspective.

You can take meds OR visit a psychiatrist! Those are your options!

Er....what about just talking things through with a friend? I know that 1 in 5 americans are on psychiatric drugs, but that doesn't make it normal for the rest of the world...

Spoken like someone who has never suffered from severe depression and anxiety, and therefore doesn't know what they're talking about. And by the way, psychiatrists don't do talk therapy, they prescribe meds based on a thorough evaluation. Psychologists and therapists are for talk. My GP highly recommends a combination of meds and therapy as the best way to deal with mental illness.

As my therapist puts it, medication alone doesn't fix you. It just puts you in a better state of mind so you can start dealing with the root of your problems via talk therapy. Many people, once the core of their problems are addressed, are able to come off of the meds once they've come to terms with the cause of their issues, and have developed the necessary coping tools in order to maintain a healthy mental state. On the flip side, many people do require meds for certain disorders in order to be able to function.

EDIT: Added in a few lines, since posting it all from my phone is a pain.
« Last Edit: 04 Dec 2015, 17:28 by Omega Entity »
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Neko_Ali

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Also, Dora has (been forced to) talk with about it with friends. That's what Tai is doing right now. The trouble is that avoiding her problems is part of Dora's problem. She's very good at rationalizing things and finding excuses to keep putting off dealing with what she doesn't deal with. Often by throwing herself into work, one place where she feels some measure of control over her environment. Some people can and do get through things on their own, or talking with friends. Dora is not one of those people.
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Tova

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Also, Dora has (been forced to) talk with about it with friends. That's what Tai is doing right now. The trouble is that avoiding her problems is part of Dora's problem.

If you are actively avoiding your problems, then no amount of therapy will help you.
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grez

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Dora looks like four different people today  :?
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The last couple of strips are really weird from a UK perspective.

You can take meds OR visit a psychiatrist! Those are your options!

Er....what about just talking things through with a friend? I know that 1 in 5 americans are on psychiatric drugs, but that doesn't make it normal for the rest of the world...

One of Dora's closest friends realized things were past the "talking things through with a friend" point with Dora and pushed her into therapy. Pushed hard.
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Perfectly Reasonable

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I hope Tai does push Dora back into therapy. I'd like to see more of Corinne.

She's not seeing Dr Corinne. The good doc said she's not seeing anymore of that circle of friends.

Got a link for that? I recall her saying she didn't want any more referrals from that circle.
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Method of Madness

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I thought she did refer Dora to her current therapist, but wouldn't personally see her because same circle of friends. But I'm looking back at Faye giving Dora the number but I can't find any reference to Corinne mentioning that.
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Welu

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Method of Madness

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Ahhh, that's why I didn't find it, because she said it to Sven slightly pre-breakup.

Also dang, I remember reading that back in 2010 and thinking "shit, what if I don't have a relationship by the time I'm 28". I'm 28 now. It's been an interesting five years.
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Storel

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Ahhh, that's why I didn't find it, because she said it to Sven slightly pre-breakup.

Also dang, I remember reading that back in 2010 and thinking "shit, what if I don't have a relationship by the time I'm 28". I'm 28 now. It's been an interesting five years.
Do you have a relationship yet? None of my business, I know, just wondering what kind of interesting it's been.
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Method of Madness

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I actually haven't had a relationship since turning 28 in August, but I've had a few, and even got engaged once. So mostly good interesting, some sad interesting, but overall...interesting.
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St.Clair

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Dora has as many issues as Faye, in her way, and they're probably at least as self-destructive.  She just goes around (not) addressing them differently.
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dawolf

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Quote from: dawolf link=topic=33157.msg1340608#msg1340608 date=1449260076
The last couple of strips are really weird from a UK perspective.

You can take meds OR visit a psychiatrist! Those are your options!

Er....what about just talking things through with a friend? I know that 1 in 5 americans are on psychiatric drugs, but that doesn't make it normal for the rest of the world...

Spoken like someone who has never suffered from severe depression and anxiety, and therefore doesn't know what they're talking about.

I've had depression, not to the stage of getting formal help but definitely to the stage that it's messed things up for a while.

However, my point wasn't about me, but about Dora. She's stressed from work, doesn't know who to promote etc, talks to her girlfriend about it and the response is: drugs or psychologist (ok, fair difference on the word).

It's not a common (yep, a better word) response in the UK IMO for what are very minor issues really.
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RetroRefractive Noodle

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Quote from: dawolf link=topic=33157.msg1340608#msg1340608 date=1449260076
The last couple of strips are really weird from a UK perspective.

You can take meds OR visit a psychiatrist! Those are your options!

Er....what about just talking things through with a friend? I know that 1 in 5 americans are on psychiatric drugs, but that doesn't make it normal for the rest of the world...

Spoken like someone who has never suffered from severe depression and anxiety, and therefore doesn't know what they're talking about.

I've had depression, not to the stage of getting formal help but definitely to the stage that it's messed things up for a while.

However, my point wasn't about me, but about Dora. She's stressed from work, doesn't know who to promote etc, talks to her girlfriend about it and the response is: drugs or psychologist (ok, fair difference on the word).

It's not a common (yep, a better word) response in the UK IMO for what are very minor issues really.

There is NOTHING minor about Clinical Depression.

You do not know of what you speak.

Educate yourself,  the internet is a vast repository of information.   

Then return here and apologize for trivializing a profound and debilitating illness.   

You're lucky the moderators melted my lug-wrench otherwise I'd be wrenching your lugs so hard right now you have NO idea.   

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Is it cold in here?

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I think he meant Dora's issues were trivial, not that clinical depression is.

On Freud's definition of health ("to love and to work") she's OK, but this business of expecting Pennelope to turn on her if offered a promotion is alarmingly and damagingly outside the usual range of emotion and cognition.

Tai is doubtless connecting this to previous arguments with Dora that she may have found alarming.
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BenRG

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However, my point wasn't about me, but about Dora. She's stressed from work, doesn't know who to promote etc, talks to her girlfriend about it and the response is: drugs or psychologist (ok, fair difference on the word).

It's not a common (yep, a better word) response in the UK IMO for what are very minor issues really.

I think that you would benefit from reading more about Dora in the archives. This isn't an isolated incident. She has a history of paranoid ideation and delusions of betrayal that poisoned her first on-screen relationship - With Marten. She also has a similar difficulty dealing with her (admittedly long-time douchebag) older brother because she constantly sees betrayal where it isn't.

Under no circumstances is this about workplace stress or indecisiveness about who to promote. These are merely the most recent symptoms.
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I think he meant Dora's issues were trivial, not that clinical depression is.

Oh ok.

Can I still loosen his lugs when my replacement wrench gets here?
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This isn't an isolated incident. She has a history of paranoid ideation and delusions of betrayal that poisoned her first on-screen relationship - With Marten. She also has a similar difficulty dealing with her (admittedly long-time douchebag) older brother because she constantly sees betrayal where it isn't.

Under no circumstances is this about workplace stress or indecisiveness about who to promote. These are merely the most recent symptoms.

Yes, and Tai may well be able to deal with these symptoms on her own, by convincing her to promote, and to delegate a bit more, at least in the the short term. These are perfectly reasonable things to sort out with a friend.

But the long term issues remain - which, to my understanding at least, are her excessive need for control, and her inability to trust others (these are probably heavily intertwined).

Convincing Dora to attend therapy is one thing, which she may do under sufferance. A more productive line of action might be to try to convince her to acknowledge those issues, and that there is no shame in facing them. Once you reach that point, assuming she is then willing to confront them, not only will she be more amenable to therapy, but also the therapy sessions  stand some chance of being productive.
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Dr. ROFLPWN

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However, my point wasn't about me, but about Dora. She's stressed from work, doesn't know who to promote etc, talks to her girlfriend about it and the response is: drugs or psychologist (ok, fair difference on the word).

It's not a common (yep, a better word) response in the UK IMO for what are very minor issues really.

I think that you would benefit from reading more about Dora in the archives. This isn't an isolated incident. She has a history of paranoid ideation and delusions of betrayal that poisoned her first on-screen relationship - With Marten. She also has a similar difficulty dealing with her (admittedly long-time douchebag) older brother because she constantly sees betrayal where it isn't.

Under no circumstances is this about workplace stress or indecisiveness about who to promote. These are merely the most recent symptoms.

« Last Edit: 05 Dec 2015, 03:50 by Dr. ROFLPWN »
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Tova

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Pizza Girl seemed pretty healthy.

Probably why she gets no screen time, come to think of it.
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Yet the lies of Melkor, the mighty and the accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. (Silmarillion 255)

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Emily and Claire both have definite psychological issues but in neither case would I call them 'crippling problems'. Indeed, from her words to Clinton in Strip 2999, I understand that Emily regards her issues as a key part of her individual identity and feels that others should apologise to her for trying to sandwich her into their definition of 'normal' when she is quite happy with her own normality, thank you very much.
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Neko_Ali

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I think that Dora is aware of her problems. She's even aware of some of the causes and reasons of those problems. She just doesn't want to have to deal with them. It's one part accustomed rut and one part avoidance of discomfort. She feels maybe she's not in the best shape, but she's good enough and trying to get better is so hard, so why even?
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Pizza Girl seemed pretty healthy.

Probably why she gets no screen time, come to think of it.
How can you tell? She was only in two strips or so… and running around pretending to be a super hero doesn't seem super healthy to me.
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TheEvilDog

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Pizza Girl seemed pretty healthy.

Probably why she gets no screen time, come to think of it.
How can you tell? She was only in two strips or so… and running around pretending to be a super hero doesn't seem super healthy to me.
I don't think she was meant to be a super hero, more of a gimmick for the pizza place. She might have to play the role and stay in there while on the job.
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Method of Madness

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Plus, if Penelope gets promoted, she won't have time to be Pizza Girl anymore.
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Quote from: Polonius
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MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
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I don't think she was meant to be a super hero, more of a gimmick for the pizza place. She might have to play the role and stay in there while on the job.

Papa John's (it's a pizza place) near when I live has people dress as Batman and hold advertising signs1. I don't know if it's just a local thing or not, but superhero-delivery-people is not far removed from that.

I still think that it would be funny to have the delivery drivers dressed as The Killing Joke-style Joker, but that probably wouldn't go down too well.
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I've never seen them do that at the Papa John's around here, but admittedly the closest one is like half an hour away, and I only go by it when I'm housesitting.

I have, on the other hand, seen statue of liberty costumes for Liberty Tax Service in winter going in the spring (what a sucky job that has to be!), the Aaron's dog for Aaron's furniture and electronics rental, the Frog for Computer Frog PC repair... Apparently we like our costumed mascots around here.
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Morituri

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However, my point wasn't about me, but about Dora. She's stressed from work, doesn't know who to promote etc, talks to her girlfriend about it and the response is: drugs or psychologist (ok, fair difference on the word).

It's not a common (yep, a better word) response in the UK IMO for what are very minor issues really.

There is NOTHING minor about Clinical Depression.


That's true.  Good thing then, that that's not what Dora has.

Dora isn't dealing the hopeless, causeless, permanent-state pathological depression that you're talking about.  There are no signs that she's lost years of her life to this nor that she will without intervention lose more years of health, happiness, and productivity.  Dora is depressed for a specific reason, at a specific time, in response to specific stress.  This is situational, not pathological. 

It's true that people who suffer *real* pathological depression often don't consider it serious and don't seek the help they need.  But that's because to them there is no remarkable state.  From their POV, "This isn't depression, this is just how life is, and has been forever, and why should anyone think it could be better?"  So there's a genuine need to fight against the tendency to trivialize it.

But that's not where Dora's at.  Dora's more in the "oh, but I don' wanna deal with seeing a therapist, it'd be inconvenient and I'd have to spend time and emotional effort on it and I'm not looking forward to that work," state than the "there's nothing that needs to be done because this is just how life is" state.  Dora knows darn well that she's unhappy and that this isn't normal. 

And BTW, don't fling words like 'clinical' around when all they mean is that it's been diagnosed.  Dora doesn't have clinical depression because she hasn't even been to see anyone who could clinically diagnose it.  If she had, then she would be in the exact same emotional state she's in now but it would be clinical. 
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