Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[JoeCovenant]

Just seen the movie.
Did I hate it? Nah.
Did I LOVE it? Nah.

Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!
MY problem with the movie is simple.

Bad directorial decisions... (now read on.. IF YOU DARE!)

(click to show/hide)

The (alleged) humour was just wrong... and it virtually opens the film!
The opening 30mins peppers us with these ridiculous moments, and then thankfully they tail away but... oh... look... right at the climax... (ish), Luke brushing the dirt from his collar... Jebus...
This is Mind-Numbing stuff.

And then we get to the WAY dodgy logistics.

Don't get me wrong, Star Wars is a trope-fest, always has been, but *generally* speaking these tropes don't leave mile-wide gaps in plot and logic.
A "Fleetkiller" can be rendered useless with ONE snub-fighter? Like, the 1st Order never learned a thing after DS 1 and 2 (and Starkiller base)?
The overseer or this tiny, tiny, TINY fleet of 1st order ships waits to have a chat with a Rebel ship?
I count three times people were exposed to vacuum and lived. (1 could kinda be forgiven).
Shall we overtake them sir? No, pull back our fighters and let's have an OJ Crawl chase! How long will this last sir? Long enough...
"They're tracking us!" "What?? We have a tracking device aboard our ship!?!?" "No they have a magic tracker that only needs them to have one." "....!"
Casino. (Utterly pointless, waste of time and unrequired intro of ultimately pointless character... ('unless'...))

(This bit really bugged me. SURELY a better story would have been Rose (the badly used and VERY well-played newbie) and Fin taking one of those cloakable escape pods and sliding through the 1st Order shields and Rose being a wiz at this kind of code breaking. Instead we get a bad chase, a STUPID attempt at decrying "Arms Traders" as being the cause of war !?!??! A worse chase, and the pick up of a worthless character who the 1st ordfer then.. um... gives a ship and a pile of stuff to?? WHAT!??!?!) And the whole physics of what happened when that explosion occurred bugged the hell out of me to. Everyone dies.. except rose and Fin and the very same troopers who were STANDING RIGHT BESIDE THEM come marching in with Phasma from half a mile away..???

Honestly... my TEN year old (Star Wars daft!) was FURIOUS at that bit! 
And my Twelve year old (who rivals ME for his fandom) was really angry at this movie.... (Sounds like "WHo is this film for?" failed... ironically!)

"One of needs to stay behind and pilot the ship!" (Umm, no you don't... you see that big metal person RIGHT BEHIND you while you're talking about this?? Also... I didn't see a lot of ship piloting going on anyway.
Also... lets stand by the window and watch all those people die instead of doing what you should have done in the first place once everyone was off.

You know what.. I could go on for hours.

It may be hard to believe, I didn't hate the film.
I didn't hate the overall arc of the story, I just really disliked the typical Disney "our audience is stupid and will gladly lap up whatever sh*t we feed them" approach.

I see a lot of reviewers trying to suggest this was a clever and brave stance by Disney.
I see it as a badly directed movie.

I read a lot of "Who was this movie made for?" as if the millions (billions) of people who are already into Star Wars is not a good enough audience.
You cannot stand and honestly say "this was made for the future growing audience" as the future growing audience is already here and already locked into the franchise, and (as can be seen above, had some of the same concerns with it as ME... due to bad film making.)

It was just a flawed movie. Suspension of disbelief is one thing when it comes to the actual science of the fiction.
But staring in disbelief at the insane directorial decisions (and one or two of the writing ones) took me out of the movie again and again... and no-one wants that.

[Pilchard123]

I think my biggest problem with the opening bombing run and Poe's demotion was the number of bombers sent. If just one craft's bombs was sufficient (and it evidently was), why sent the entire fleet? I get needing to send multiple so they could cover each other but given that they did have a fighter screen as well, why risk all of the bombers when just a handful would have sufficed?

I didn't mind the way the bombs moved (it's a film about space wizards with laser swords; scientific accuracy isn't the point here), or the unexpected "please hold" jokes (it's Disney, what are you going to do?). But the loss of the whole fleet is a fairly major plot point that didn't really need to happen.

[Tova]

Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!

I've seen a number of discussions about the backlash, but I've managed to miss this particular argument somehow.

You spend a lot of time speaking against the flaws for a film you allegedly don't hate?

[JoeCovenant]

Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!

I've seen a number of discussions about the backlash, but I've managed to miss this particular argument somehow.

You spend a lot of time speaking against the flaws for a film you allegedly don't hate?

Yep...
If I had *hated* it I would have gone on for far longer nit-picking the thing to shreds and having nary a good word for it.
My ire is more at "What the hell are they doing to star wars!!!" I didn't hate the film... but I severely disliked the shift in ... *feel* of some portions (and characters) of it... and the lazy film making in places. (It's too easy to point to enormous flaws, is my main problem.)

Oh... that article... (I envy you - I've been seeing it EVERYWHERE!)
https://bittergertrude.com/2018/01/04/why-so-many-men-hate-the-last-jedi-but-cant-agree-on-why/

And now.. SO HAVE YOU !!!

MUUUAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry, it's been a hard week!)

ETA:
When I went to find the above article, this one popped up...  https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-why-star-wars-fans-hate-one-of-the-best-star-wars-movies/#2bb74c895658

Which AGAIN is running out the same old "reasons" that they "think" people are disliking the film for... and even *thisd* one falls onto the "the white older male audience" disliking it "because women!"

And I think that kind of garbage is only fuelling my ire!
I'll say it once more though...
BAD FILM-MAKING, bad logic and bad characterisation are my reasons.
I don't give a damn who is doing what or if "The men all fail"... I really don't... I just want to see a well crafted, logical movie without plot-holes you could drive a "fleet destroyer" through and scripted in a way that is as realistic as Sci Fi can be.

I am also annoyed at the "Ah but it isn't being made for *you* it's being made for the "new generation" of Star Wars fans...
Aye, right... because the new generation are different in what way, exactly, when it comes to expecting a well told tale?
Again, the pundits are commentating more on what they *think* people are annoyed about. (THEY'RE KILLING OFF OUR FRIENDS!)
Maybe some people are miffed at that... I kinda expected it!

[Thrillho]

So, just to clarify: because you don't like the film due to subjective criticisms of the way it is written and shot, that means nobody at all is moaning about it being an SJW Star Wars movie?

[JoeCovenant]

So, just to clarify: because you don't like the film due to subjective criticisms of the way it is written and shot, that means nobody at all is moaning about it being an SJW Star Wars movie?

No, it means *I* am not.
It never even entered my HEAD that it might end up being tagged with the SJW label.

But I think that might just be the way I think...
I don't see there being any problem female leads, or females in positions of power...

(I dunno if that comes from being Scottish and the female being a strong character anyway? EG, until Kesia's implosion all three major political parties in Scotland were helmed by women - two of them Lesbian.)

...but when Poe was being hauled over the coals for what he did, I was shouting (inwardly) "HELL yeah!" because he was WRONG.
And the whole mutiny thing??? Leia should have just shot him. (Had it not been Disney Wars she might well have. If he had been on the Razor he'd be floating in space by now! )
But again, this plays into the bad characterisation element... Playing characters against type, to create drama, to then be able to *solve* this drama.

Looking at it with SJW in mind... you know what, if I actually take a moment to think about it, maybe it *was* created to deliberately pit the women-folk agin the men-folk.

But I don't care.
I just want good stories well told. And this failed to vault that hurdle.
It even failed to put forward a good new strong female character, showing her to be indecisive after such a STRONG intro, and then watching melancholically as the ships float away... and only to slam dunk herself when it's nearly too bloody late. (Better idea? "One of us has to stay behind to pilot the ship" "What? No, leave a droid!" "Trust me, the ship has to be piloted away from this fleet"... hugs hugs hugs. one shot of watching the fleet head toward s the planet. One shot FROM the fleet, seeing the ship turn around. "What's she doing?" "Oh no...!"
WHAM !!!! (YMMV, but I think that would have made for a far better *end* to her arc. Strong woman, tough decision made prior to being forced into it.)

A friend of mine said she didn't like the fact that Fin is being hailed as a hero for attempting to escape the ship and then being dragged into a "heroic" scenario.
I didn't even think he *was* trying to escape! I thought he was trying to head over to the big shop to sabotage it himself! But, again, we're looking at cookie-cutter characters here, deliberately side-lining those better known (Chewbacca, anyone?) pushed aside to shift focus. (I did have problem with TFA when Rey took control of the Falcon... not because she's female, but because Chewie's been flying it far longer than she has! You can be as strong in the force as you like, but I don't; see why that give inherent ability to fly starships with no previous knowledge of them other than as salvage)

But I digress... 
Maybe I should just pour all of this into a blog post and put up a link so you guys aren't forced to suffer this stream of semi--consciousness and you can all ignore the link! 
 

[Thrillho]

Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!

[JoeCovenant]

Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!

???

[Thrillho]

Isn't that sentence literally you saying that it's ludicrous to suggest that the backlash against the film is misogyny related?

Or by 'backlash' are you referring to just your own opinion of the movie?

[JoeCovenant]

Isn't that sentence literally you saying that it's ludicrous to suggest that the backlash against the film is misogyny related?

Or by 'backlash' are you referring to just your own opinion of the movie?

I'm saying "to my mind" to suggest the backlash is based on misogyny is ludicrous.
Because I'm backlashing a bit and in no part does "the cast" even come into it.

[Thrillho]

That still sounds to me like my point stands - that you are saying that because your own objections are not misogynistic, then nobody's are.

[Neko_Ali]

Some people do have legitimate issues with the movie over writing, some complain that it's not what they were expecting and yes some do complain over sexist or racist issues. There is never just one opinion on everything.

[JoeCovenant]

That still sounds to me like my point stands - that you are saying that because your own objections are not misogynistic, then nobody's are.

Then I'm can't be making myself very clear. (Sorry.)

I have no doubt that a small (VERRRRYYYY small) number of people may view it that way.

But I *do* I doubt VERY much that it's the big deal this article seems to make out that it is because I have seen NO-ONE making any of the points that article makes...

And I've actually looked.

But no, none of the above is what I am trying to say.
Just to my mind that those who (apparently) ARE saying it's misogynistic are idiots.
But those saying "Why Men hate this..." are also idiots. (Maybe it just comes down to "NOT ALL MEN!" ?? But if it is, it's the worst example I've ever seen of it.)

[Tova]

But I *do* I doubt VERY much that it's the big deal this article seems to make out that it is because I have seen NO-ONE making any of the points that article makes...

And I've actually looked.

Yeah, well. I thought no-one was making the claims you're complaining about. And yet you're making a very big deal out of that. So, I'd be careful in drawing conclusions. Yes, I've been reading reactions around the place (admittedly not comprehensively). Maybe the proximity of this film's release with the Tilly story has made me utterly fascinated with the kind of angry reaction we've seen towards both.

So, obviously you disliked the film. Actually, you spend so much denying you hate it, I wonder if you protest too much. It's fine if you hated it, it's fine if you disliked it. It's a pity that you felt unable to say so explicitly. My impression is that you disliked the film due to its numerous plot holes and inconsistencies. Is this very roughly correct?

This is one article about the backlash that I have retained. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/12/18/16791844/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-controversy

You will note that one of several reasons for the backlash noted (the very first, as they are ordered from least to most significant reasons) is that the film is "too progressive." That specific backlash is out there. Not here, but I've seen it around. You can't discuss the backlash without at least noting it. But it's also obvious that different people disliked the film for different reasons.

[Tova]

While I'm at it, I'll put this one up for reactions as well. A post in another thread brought this article to mind.

The ‘Last Jedi’ backlash provides a useful primer in how not to watch a movie

Try not to get too upset at the provocative title. 

[TheEvilDog]

I like the glow sticks that go "Fwoom!".

(click to show/hide)

Although I do feel that the central message of the Last Jedi was that legends are something of a double edge sword. They can inspire people to good or evil, they can inspire hope and they spark hubris. The real strength is being to let go of the past and being free of the shackles.

Kylo Ren's driving force was to following in his grandfather's footsteps, not realizing the pain that drove Anakin to become Darth Vader helped destroyed him. Anakin wasn't evil or a monster, he was just a man that had several traumatic experiences and none of his closest friends/mentors really helped him. "Have you tried bottling up those emotions?"

Luke killed an Emperor and toppled an Empire, but in doing so became mired in the past. He was so focused on restoring the Jedi Order that Ben's betrayal destroyed his faith in himself and the Force (which also explains why Luke never came to Han or Leia's aid when they were in danger like he did in the Empire Strikes Back, he had cut himself off from the Force).

Poe's failings come from the belief that his previous actions would work again, only for that to fail horribly and his pyrrhic victory.

Rey wants to recapture the past glory and find some meaning for herself by seeking the legendary Luke Skywalker, but instead of finding a hero, she just comes across an old and bitter man who seems to have given up.

Ultimately for the characters to progress and develop, they needed to find move out from underneath the shadows of legends, to let go of the past and move on. Or in Luke's case, watch the arsonist toad burn that tree.

[Tova]

(click to show/hide)

You reminded me of one of the moments I liked: when Leia said, "What are you looking at me for? Follow him."

It's an acknowledgement that Poe has grown from a flyboy to a leader, a transformation that grew out of his failings (a central message of the film).

[JoeCovenant]

(click to show/hide)

You reminded me of one of the moments I liked: when Leia said, "What are you looking at me for? Follow him."

It's an acknowledgement that Poe has grown from a flyboy to a leader, a transformation that grew out of his failings (a central message of the film).

(click to show/hide)

Whereas to me it was another example of bad story telling.
This guy was shot for mutiny not that long ago...
I mean, redemption, fine, but only a few hours afterwards?

[JoeCovenant]

But I *do* I doubt VERY much that it's the big deal this article seems to make out that it is because I have seen NO-ONE making any of the points that article makes...

And I've actually looked.

Yeah, well. I thought no-one was making the claims you're complaining about. And yet you're making a very big deal out of that. So, I'd be careful in drawing conclusions.

So, obviously you disliked the film. Actually, you spend so much denying you hate it, I wonder if you protest too much. It's fine if you hated it, it's fine if you disliked it. It's a pity that you felt unable to say so explicitly. My impression is that you disliked the film due to its numerous plot holes and inconsistencies. Is this very roughly correct?

That is not very roughly correct, that is almost my entire beef!
But there were also bits I liked! (Honestly, if I had hated it, I would have had no qualms in saying so.)

I think all it is , is, that I am disappointed in it. Which can often be worse than hatred.
And I'm kicking against the "official" 'this film is for the new generation', because all I see is dumbing down and pandering, and MY newer generation viewers are complaining about the same things that I did.

(Also... this just hit me... I think a part of my annoyance is the wiping out of Luke's "history" of becoming this amazing and worthy Jedi, due to "New Canon". But that is secondary to the craft being .. just... bad.)

[Tova]

Long response coming, but I've noticed that the precise phrase "bad story telling" is probably the one thing in common between the vast majority of complaints.

Influencing each other?

[JoeCovenant]

Long response coming, but I've noticed that the precise phrase "bad story telling" is probably the one thing in common between the vast majority of complaints.

Influencing each other?

Quite possibly...
Re: the articles above... The second I have already read, but under a different title and site (!)
The first, (surprise, surprise!) opens with exactly what I have not seen anywhere... "People are complaining because the white male heroes are failing and the women are not!!" Seriously, I have not seen that anywhere else other than in these articles decrying it! Other than that, the article seems to be saying.. all these things have been changed and people are hating it. (It does touch on the humour, and does make the distinction that the humour of *older* star wars was different and not so brutally LOOK! LOOK! THIS IS FUNNY! But then tries to say "So what!?" Well.. that's kinda ther p[oint... Star wars isn't a comedy, and this movie opens with it trying to be one... It's almost as if they are trying to emulate the Marvel movies and their humour... except their has ALWAYS been out-and-out humour in Marvel. Star Wars had "amusing asides", and of course R2 and Threepio... who were (again) all but ignored in this one.

One of the articles ends by saying the filmmaker "Made star wars his own... and what's the problem with that?"
Well.. *I* would say when that filmmakers vision is so far removed from (to all intents and purposes ) around 50% of the franchises 'fans' (and probably of the higher age brackets who made it the success it was) *I* would say that's half the problem right there.

Tova, I'm looking forward to your post...
I just wish I had time to compose these responses more fully... (I only really access this site when I am at work !   )

[Tova]

Sorry that I haven't got to this! In between a potentially life-changing a career switch and adopting a kitten, along with various minor home renovations, I've barely had time to sneeze. Better later than never! Regardless, here are some of my thoughts.

Spoilers within.

(click to show/hide)

I'll begin by admitting that, while I always endeavour to watch a film with no expectations, this was not the case here. You can see a couple of these at least simply by reviewing my previous posts in the SW threads. So, while I admit that I tend to be critical of fans who disliked the film because it wasn't precisely what they wanted, I admit that part of the reason I liked the film was because it gave me what I wanted.

I did expect that Rey's parents would be no-one of significance.
I did expect Luke to initially be unwilling to train Rey.
I did expect the film to diverge from the previous film's mirroring of the original trilogy.

On the last of these points, one of the most interesting aspects of the film was how Luke's final act mirrored a scene, not in Empire Strike Back, but in A New Hope. More on this later.

The strongest aspect of the film, in my opinion, was its meditations on failure and how to transcend it. I guess you could say that this is a topic of great interest to me. Not because I have failed, actually. But because I have feared failure, and this has held me back.

This theme informed each sub-plot of the film. It informed the failure of the code-breaker plan - to me, its failure was crucial to the theme of the film, and did not mean that this entire portion of the film was a "waste of time." It informed Luke's story, as it must have done given that we already knew that his Jedi Academy had ended in failure. It informed Poe's transformation from the flyboy who recklessly lost lives to leader ("What are you looking at me for? Follow him.").

One thing I wasn't expecting, of course, was the lightsabre battle with Rey and Kylo temporarily teaming up to defeat the Praetorian guard. While I'm speaking of moments I enjoyed, I also enjoyed the scenes between Rose and Finn. I loved the little callback to A New Hope with R2D2. And many more moments.

One of the big criticisms I've seen of the film is that Luke is "diminished." I don't at all see him as at all diminished. Quite the opposite.

We already knew that his Academy had failed. I can easily imagine that he would have felt a heavy responsibility in training Ben, and that his fears that Ben would fall to the dark side would have been very real. He knew that this was the fate of Obi-Wan as a teacher - would Luke be able to avoid the same fate? I can understand why some felt that Luke would not have fallen into despair when this did happen, but considering all that he has gone through, the emotions he would have felt at the death of his own father, and then his failure in training the son of his sister and his best friend, I would have been amazed if he did not fall into despair. I am surprised that more people did not expect it. Why did you think he was in exile?

The reason I say that Luke is not diminished pivots around the scene with Yoda, which is the real heart of the film. The scene that follows, where Luke uses his head and saves his friends, not by recklessly plunging into battle, but by projecting his image over a huge distance, is not only a deliberate contrast with his actions in The Last Jedi in saving his father, but is also an echo of Obi-Wan's actions in The Last Jedi. Like Obi-Wan, not only has Luke ensured the future of Rey, his padawan, but he done so in a way that surpassed Obi-Wan. As Yoda says, we are what they go beyond - this is the fate of all masters.

I can see that some people would have preferred a cool battle between Luke and Kylo, but this was far better. If I wanted to watch a film with a sequence of cool moments strung together by a barely coherent plot, I'd go watch a Marvel film.

I think that this is a thoughtful film rather than one that opts for fan service and spectacle, and in this way, I think this will eventually be seen as one of the greatest Star Wars films.

[JoeCovenant]

Sorry that I haven't got to this! In between a potentially life-changing a career switch and adopting a kitten, along with various minor home renovations, I've barely had time to sneeze. Better later than never! Regardless, here are some of my thoughts.

Spoilers within.

(click to show/hide)

I'll begin by admitting that, while I always endeavour to watch a film with no expectations, this was not the case here. You can see a couple of these at least simply by reviewing my previous posts in the SW threads. So, while I admit that I tend to be critical of fans who disliked the film because it wasn't precisely what they wanted, I admit that part of the reason I liked the film was because it gave me what I wanted.

I did expect that Rey's parents would be no-one of significance.
I did expect Luke to initially be unwilling to train Rey.
I did expect the film to diverge from the previous film's mirroring of the original trilogy.

On the last of these points, one of the most interesting aspects of the film was how Luke's final act mirrored a scene, not in Empire Strike Back, but in A New Hope. More on this later.

The strongest aspect of the film, in my opinion, was its meditations on failure and how to transcend it. I guess you could say that this is a topic of great interest to me. Not because I have failed, actually. But because I have feared failure, and this has held me back.

This theme informed each sub-plot of the film. It informed the failure of the code-breaker plan - to me, its failure was crucial to the theme of the film, and did not mean that this entire portion of the film was a "waste of time." It informed Luke's story, as it must have done given that we already knew that his Jedi Academy had ended in failure. It informed Poe's transformation from the flyboy who recklessly lost lives to leader ("What are you looking at me for? Follow him.").

One thing I wasn't expecting, of course, was the lightsabre battle with Rey and Kylo temporarily teaming up to defeat the Praetorian guard. While I'm speaking of moments I enjoyed, I also enjoyed the scenes between Rose and Finn. I loved the little callback to A New Hope with R2D2. And many more moments.

One of the big criticisms I've seen of the film is that Luke is "diminished." I don't at all see him as at all diminished. Quite the opposite.

We already knew that his Academy had failed. I can easily imagine that he would have felt a heavy responsibility in training Ben, and that his fears that Ben would fall to the dark side would have been very real. He knew that this was the fate of Obi-Wan as a teacher - would Luke be able to avoid the same fate? I can understand why some felt that Luke would not have fallen into despair when this did happen, but considering all that he has gone through, the emotions he would have felt at the death of his own father, and then his failure in training the son of his sister and his best friend, I would have been amazed if he did not fall into despair. I am surprised that more people did not expect it. Why did you think he was in exile?

The reason I say that Luke is not diminished pivots around the scene with Yoda, which is the real heart of the film. The scene that follows, where Luke uses his head and saves his friends, not by recklessly plunging into battle, but by projecting his image over a huge distance, is not only a deliberate contrast with his actions in The Last Jedi in saving his father, but is also an echo of Obi-Wan's actions in The Last Jedi. Like Obi-Wan, not only has Luke ensured the future of Rey, his padawan, but he done so in a way that surpassed Obi-Wan. As Yoda says, we are what they go beyond - this is the fate of all masters.

I can see that some people would have preferred a cool battle between Luke and Kylo, but this was far better. If I wanted to watch a film with a sequence of cool moments strung together by a barely coherent plot, I'd go watch a Marvel film.

I think that this is a thoughtful film rather than one that opts for fan service and spectacle, and in this way, I think this will eventually be seen as one of the greatest Star Wars films.

Nice piece.
I'm honestly glad you got that out of the movie.
I just don't agree with the premise you put forward.

However, as I've said often, my major problems with this film were in the craft. Bad film decisions and plotholes you could fly a star destroyer through.
(As well as abandoning/ignoring/wilfully discarding almost everything set-up in EpVII)

A "study in failure" doesn't make a compelling movie, to me...

[BenRG]

I've just seen the film for the first time and, after thinking about it, my overwhelming response was 'Ho-hum'. It wasn't good and it wasn't bad but it was mediocre, sometimes confused and I really didn't like the writing. What I liked the least was the constant juggling of idiot balls leading to bizarre plot devices whose only apparent purpose was to justify future plot devices or SFX set-pieces.

(click to show/hide)

I agree with those fans who considered Admiral Holdo's character was an idiot. It's hard to understate the amount of problems she could have avoided if she had told Poe something to give him reason to trust her in a scenario where every passing hour seemed to confirm that she had no strategy except 'run away'. Indeed, I can see no reason why she shouldn't have told at least her senior command staff who could then have reassured their subordinates. As it turns out, that strategy was pretty bad as it is and I'm guessing it was a 'plan B' that Leia had thrown together in a few minutes when they realised that the First Order was somehow tracking their hyperspace jumps.

Also: Are we supposed to believe that a multi-millennia-old civilisation that mass-produces AI appliances of all kinds doesn't have something as simple as an autopilot?

There were a few moments that I liked:

(click to show/hide)

• The use of 'two people in the same place experience different things' with the confrontation between Ben and Luke at Luke's Jedi academy;
• The highlighting of the fact that, as Rey predicted, it was Snoke's arrogance that was his downfall;
• The breaking of the Skywalker Lightsabre, surely symbolising the impending end of the Skywalker family and lineage with Ben Solo's inevitable death in Episode IX;
  
• Leia's implicit handing off of the torch by telling the few surviving Resistance fighters to go with Poe.

These things aside, my overwhelming sense was, as I have already said, was a film that was mediocre. Perhaps it is because I am somewhat involved in the Star Wars online community and that a lot of the philosophical issues regarding the weaknesses of and possible/probably corruption of the old Jedi Order have already been done to death on discussion forums, particularly around the time of The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones led me to be unimpressed by the philosophical musings. Add in unimpressive battle scenes (with one notable exception), too much fourth wall-straining comedic one-liners and far too much 'this must not work or we won't have any reason for the next plot point' narrative convenience, I was generally dismissive of the script.

I suppose what sticks in my craw more than anything else is the ongoing policy to have the OT lead characters go out with a whimper: defeated and failures in their own minds. I find it a somewhat dispiriting act of cynical iconoclasm (clearly with the intent of making the newer characters seem more genuinely heroic) and it turns me off of the sequel films.

BenRG's Rating: 5/10

[Tova]

Well, I agree with one thing. This won't win me any friends, but I do think there's an element of groupthink among hardcore fans.

Edit: A New Old Skywalker

[JoeCovenant]

Well, I agree with one thing. This won't win me any friends, but I do think there's an element of groupthink among hardcore fans.

Edit: A New Old Skywalker

"laughable animal husbandry and death-defying spearfishing"

I am so glad he put this in... because it's (as I've said) part of my main problem with the movie.

People can wax lyrical as much as they like about whether "The Changing of the Guard" was a brave or stupid move, but Levitt seems to change his mind half way through his own article.

BUT... he lets the whole thing down with this little holier-than-thou sentence...
"I think there’s a certain enjoyment to be had from taking a subversive stance against the biggest “Big Hollywood” movie of the year. And I know I couldn’t kill that buzz even if I wanted to. "

I'm afraid MY answer to that would be "Screw" quickly followed by "YOU!"
Because I WANTED to LOVE this movie.
And (as I think my very first comment on it said) all it left me with was a feeling of disappointment.
I take NO enjoyment in my criticisms of it... because I don't want to be making them!

I can't (and wouldn't think to) talk for everyone... but I never knew there WAS a backlash until after I had seen the movie and formed my own opinions because I stayed FAAARRRR away from anything to do with the movie until I had seen it.

But again, none of these articles I am seeing lauding the film happen to touch upon the awful plot holes or the bad humour too much, apart from side-lining those points before rambling on about how it's really *brave* to change everything everyone knows about Star Wars!

And that opinion is just as valid as those of us who think it was Stupid to do so...

I can't agree with your "groupthink" comment though, Tova. We're not all sitting in a room planning how to demolish this.
It's just as easy to point that accusation at those looking to make a silk purse out of this particular sow's ear.

I haven't taken the time to sit down and compose some massive about the damage the alterations to characters and bad plot could be...

(Highlights apart from the things mentioned above would probably be the insidious Millennial Entitlement shown in the movie. Rey gets all she wants... "Because she's a strong-free-single woman y'awl! She doesn't need to WORK to be the hardest bad-ass saber wielder in the 'verse. She just TAKES it, grlfrnd!"
Not the best message to be putting out there...)

And I probably never will...
All I can do is hope that IX does what VIII did to VII


ETA:
This dude here, from the comments on the LEvitt article)  kinda encapsulates most (but not all) of my problems with the film...
https://medium.com/@robbie.johnson/the-idea-of-the-risks-wasnt-bad-the-execution-was-11f3e429571e

ETAA:
I've just read all of the comments on the article.
I don't need to write anything now, a LOT of these guys get it (from my POV).
(And - look - NONE of it being "Why are these women/not-white-people getting all the glory!!??")

It's the craft... all to do with the (lack of) craft.

[Tova]

I can't agree with your "groupthink" comment though, We're not all sitting in a room planning how to demolish this.
It's just as easy to point that accusation at those looking to make a silk purse out of this particular sow's ear.

Ha ha.
Of course I don't think anyone is doing that.
And yes, absolutely (your charactarisation of people who like the film notwithstanding).
In that order.

Edit: The article you linked. Some comments I agree with. Some I disagree. And some I find weird and nitpicky, like they are just grappling onto any flaw they can think of.

Just to make myself clear, with my groupthink remark, I'm not trying to say that people who hated the film are wrong and those who liked it are right. I'm just not convinced that the majority of people who disliked (or even liked) the film really know exactly why, let alone have the capability to explain it well. So they look to other reviews to try and explain it. So many SW geeks convinced they are great film critics. 

[JoeCovenant]

I can't agree with your "groupthink" comment though, We're not all sitting in a room planning how to demolish this.
It's just as easy to point that accusation at those looking to make a silk purse out of this particular sow's ear.

Ha ha.
Of course I don't think anyone is doing that.
And yes, absolutely (your charactarisation of people who like the film notwithstanding).
In that order.

Edit: The article you linked. Some comments I agree with. Some I disagree. And some I find weird and nitpicky, like they are just grappling onto any flaw they can think of.

Just to make myself clear, with my groupthink remark, I'm not trying to say that people who hated the film are wrong and those who liked it are right. I'm just not convinced that the majority of people who disliked (or even liked) the film really know exactly why, let alone have the capability to explain it well. So they look to other reviews to try and explain it. So many SW geeks convinced they are great film critics.

I can't agree with that, Tova.
I dunno if you have read the rest of the comments under that article - But I think those explaining why they dislike it are doing so VERY well.

When I first heard that Disney had taken this over I worried a bit.
Then I saw TFA and I thought.. okay, not bed.. let's see what happens.
And then I saw Rogue One and I thought WOW !!! Yes!!!
And I was So looking forward to TLJ...
Now, I'm worried about the last episode in the 'Saga'.
And fear that Star Wars will become another "straight to DVD" event... a sad end.

[LeeC]

Here is something from Rian Johnson's twitter that I thought was funny. I remember getting this book back in like 2011 or was it 2012 before Disney got Star Wars.

(click to show/hide)

[Tova]

I've read more of those comments than I care to admit.

For someone who found the film 'average', you're saying all the things being said by people who detested the film.

Anyway, we're moved from explanation into hyperbole, so I think we're done here.

[JoeCovenant]

I've read more of those comments than I care to admit.

For someone who found the film 'average', you're saying all the things being said by people who detested the film.

Anyway, we're moved from explanation into hyperbole, so I think we're done here.

Meh, what can I say?
Some people clearly have stronger reactions!
But remember, some people liked Jar-Jar...

[Tova]

Speaking of the prequels:

http://www.vulture.com/2017/01/mark-hamill-star-wars-prequels-the-last-jedi.html

I wouldn't wish this kind of response on any creator. I really wouldn't.

[Method of Madness]

But remember, some people liked Jar-Jar...

To be fair, he is a sith lord. Maybe.

[JoeCovenant]

But remember, some people liked Jar-Jar...

To be fair, he is a sith lord. Maybe.

I'll tell ya... I love that theory.
(The misdirected shots of the robots being (to me) the largest nugget suggesting it might be true.
Reason being... those robots were animated to do EXACTLY what they did... this wasn't an *extra* looking the wrong way by mistake, this was a deliberate action.)

And it would have been STUNNING to have seen it play out.

I reckon the whole "people hate him too much to follow this through any longer" is only a weak excuse for the truth.
That being: that it was thought the force of 300 million jaws DROPPING on opening night might have shifted the axis of the earth,

[LeeC]

[JoeCovenant]

Yup!

[BenRG]

That is what you get if you had attempted to insert common sense (something that I pointed out needed to be surgically extracted at every step in the actual shooting script of Episode VIII in order to actually make the next plot point necessary). I also agree that Luke and Rey smashing the First Order ground strike unaided would have been awesome... and a lot better than what we got. I also think that Rey should have switched from 'pull' to 'push' when fighting Kylo Ren for the lightsaber and knocking him out by crashing the hilt into his face.

Isn't it worrying that a parody made suggestions that would have made the film 10x more palatable and plausible?

[JoeCovenant]

That is what you get if you had attempted to insert common sense (something that I pointed out needed to be surgically extracted at every step in the actual shooting script of Episode VIII in order to actually make the next plot point necessary). I also agree that Luke and Rey smashing the First Order ground strike unaided would have been awesome... and a lot better than what we got. I also think that Rey should have switched from 'pull' to 'push' when fighting Kylo Ren for the lightsaber and knocking him out by crashing the hilt into his face.

Isn't it worrying that a parody made suggestions that would have made the film 10x more palatable and plausible?

Spot on, Ben...
Though, I don't, view this as a parody (other than the Akbar bits)...
I view this more as a... "Um, Mr. Disney... You *do* see that all these things were *wrong* ...surely?"

Dumbing down. Pandering.

If this film had been written as a novel it would have been panned for the plot holes.
(which the animation above only addresses a few of)

Why do films (in general!) seem to be getting away with this kinda nonsense more and more?
(Maybe it's not any more prevalent than before, but it does seem to be.)

[Tova]

Guys,

Have you subscribed to his channel? All of his videos are this way. Including every other Star Wars parody. And others. It's what he does.

I found it hilarious btw.

[JoeCovenant]

Guys,

Have you subscribed to his channel? All of his videos are this way. Including every other Star Wars parody. And others. It's what he does.

I found it hilarious btw.

I've not subscribed, but I've seen a few...
I think the difference with this and some of his other works is that this one (other than the Akbar scenes) were more a comic rendition of some of the things previously discussed.

I'm actually more impressed with the animation work!

[Tova]

Yes, that is true. This film being a bit more divisive, it would make sense for him to play into that.

His animation work is pretty good. 

[LeeC]

They even have their own "spin off" type series that involve Batman and Superman's constant coffee shop appearence at the end of every super hero HISHE and they interview the hero(s) fromt he film.  Now they interact with the villain pub too.