Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

  • 21 Oct 2017, 01:19
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Author Topic: Star Wars: Episode VIII  (Read 4285 times)

Tova

  • Born in a Nalgene bottle
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,087
  • Friendshipper
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #100 on: 10 Oct 2017, 22:51 »

Well, I don't actually expect the film specifically to resemble The Empire Strikes Back myself, for whatever that is worth.

It probably won't be wholly original, but no Star Wars film is.
Logged
It's all about the jokes!

BenRG

Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #101 on: 10 Oct 2017, 23:55 »

We already know that they're recycling the most iconic part of The Empire Strikes Back: Specifically the battle between small fighter-craft and Imperial walkers. They're also ripping off Darth Vader's Super Star Destroyer by giving Lord Snoke a super-giant 'flying wing'-shaped flagship that leaves me wonder if J J Abrams is compensating for something.
Logged
~~~~

They call me BenRG... But I don't know why!

Castlerook

  • Born in a Nalgene bottle
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,488
  • Captain Sarcastic
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #102 on: 11 Oct 2017, 04:38 »

Well, I don't actually expect the film specifically to resemble The Empire Strikes Back myself, for whatever that is

You do realise that The Force Awakens resembled The Phantom Menace which in turned resembled A New Hope. A mentor figure dies in the first film of the trilogy - Han died to a Force user as did Qui Gon as did Obi Wan. A lone pilot blows up the massive station in the finale of the first film - Am I talking about Poe Dameron, Anakin Skywalker or Luke. Likewise, the heroes have to get off a desert planet with little law to deliver a vitally important message - Jakku or Tattooine (twice)?

In turn Attack of the Clones resembled The Empire Strikes Back, as did Revenge of the Sith to Return of the Jedi.

Star Wars has become formulaic. The whole series is interchangeable at this stage, just swap out characters and the plot remains pretty much the same.
Logged
Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart but I am street smart.", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I am imaginary smart."

LeeC

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,550
  • Who?! What?! What?! What?! Who?!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #103 on: 11 Oct 2017, 06:00 »

I am hoping to be surprised with a new freshness with this one but we wont know until next month.  I am expecting them to set up something similarly to tESB but then something goes horribly wrong.  Rey takes to the dark side (where Luke decided he'd rather throw himself off a cliff).  Leia doesn't escape from the rebel base (where as before Han pulled her off the base and ran from the empire).  Finn and Poe do not try to lay low (like Han and crew) but to go after Rey/fight the first order.  I am just expecting them to set it up so we feel like they are regurgitating the old film but only to then reverse throttle into something different at every opportunity.
Logged
Be excellent to each other, party on Dudes!

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #104 on: 11 Oct 2017, 06:18 »

Instead of Rey turning to the dark side or Ben turning to the light side, how about they meet in the middle, and be something like Mace Windu?
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

LeeC

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,550
  • Who?! What?! What?! What?! Who?!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #105 on: 11 Oct 2017, 06:27 »

I think that is the main story arc for 7-9.  They become what the fans call "grey jedi." Tapping into both light and dark, making them more powerful.
Logged
Be excellent to each other, party on Dudes!

BenRG

Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #106 on: 11 Oct 2017, 08:06 »

FWIW, the 'grey path' Force adepts are called 'Bendu' and have been hanging around in the background for a while, in-universe. I suspect that Luke has found out something about their teachings and that is what is in the books he is shown giving Rey in the trailer. If Abrams follows Lucas's own writings, those books are the Book of the Whills, the oldest 'how to...' book on the Force in the galaxy (probably more than slightly based on the RL Kabbalah).
Logged
~~~~

They call me BenRG... But I don't know why!

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #107 on: 11 Oct 2017, 08:07 »

Ehhh, if it's not in the movies it's not absolute canon to me, but that's still interesting. Thanks!
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Neko_Ali

  • Global Moderator
  • Older than Moses
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,073
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #108 on: 11 Oct 2017, 08:35 »

There is a lot of background stuff that's been going on since Disney took over that says they are heading towards a combined Force. And a lot in movies 1-3 and Clone Wars that laid the ground work of it.

First of all, the prophecy from the prequels. 'The one who will bring balance to the Force'. Jedi being what they are assume that means someone who will get rid of the Sith once and for all. Which is the exact opposite of balance. With the Force divided between the Jedi and Sith the balance of power swung back and forth, often leading to great chaos and even open war. Most of the conflicts that are talked about are directly or indirectly caused by this imbalance. Movies 1-6 were all about the conflicts that came about because of Palpatine seizing power and devastating the Jedi.

In one of the later seasons of the Clone Wars Anakin and Ahsoka were stuck on a planet that was the balance of the Force personified into three people. The older father figure that represented the balance, the son which was the dark side and daughter which was the light. The father was weak and dying while the children fought over the land, which was tearing it apart. From these things we can see the groundwork being laid to the final fate of the Force and the importance of the Skywalker line in it.

Rebels gave us Kanan and an older Ahsoka both of which who were Jedi trained but gave it up, understanding the flaws inherent in their philosophy. There was also the character Bendu who instructed or advised Kanan and Ezra who says he's from a time older than the Jedi and Sith, when the Force was just the Force.

Rogue One gives us Jedha and the temple there, protected by the Guardians of the Whills, like Chirrut. All of these references have been floating around in the background for some time now. And then there is the movie title The Last Jedi, and trailers where Luke is saying it's time for the Jedi to end. The Sith order are already at an end with the deaths of Palapatine and Vader. Kylo Ren and presumably Snoke use dark side power, but they are not Sith.

In the end I think it will be the Skywalker's destiny to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Jedi and Sith and removing the philosophical fracture between them, leaving the Bendu and others like them to teach the way of the Force combined.
Logged

LeeC

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,550
  • Who?! What?! What?! What?! Who?!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #109 on: 11 Oct 2017, 08:52 »

In legends wasn't there some force users that taught Luke to use both sides of the force.  Its just the force but how you use it really defines if you are evil or not?
Logged
Be excellent to each other, party on Dudes!

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #110 on: 11 Oct 2017, 08:59 »

Legends?

Edit: Oh, the EU.
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Castlerook

  • Born in a Nalgene bottle
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,488
  • Captain Sarcastic
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #111 on: 11 Oct 2017, 09:34 »

FWIW, the 'grey path' Force adepts are called 'Bendu' and have been hanging around in the background for a while, in-universe. I suspect that Luke has found out something about their teachings and that is what is in the books he is shown giving Rey in the trailer. If Abrams follows Lucas's own writings, those books are the Book of the Whills, the oldest 'how to...' book on the Force in the galaxy (probably more than slightly based on the RL Kabbalah).

The Bendu has since become canon and integral to the interregnum period between the two completed trilogies.

Ehhh, if it's not in the movies it's not absolute canon to me, but that's still interesting. Thanks!

Funnily enough, when Disney bought Star Wars, they've established what is 100% canon and what is not. Currently thats:
- The original trilogy, the prequel trilogy and the forthcoming trilogy.
- The Clone Wars series and pilot film.
- The Rebels series and accompanying supplementary material.
- Star Wars Insider, fiction magazine, beginning with issue 149.
- Any information from StarWars.com.

What's still up in the air regarding canon are the Fantasy Flight Games RPGs (Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny), the novelisations of the first six films, the earlier spin-off films (Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure, Ewoks: The Battle for Endor) and series (Star Wars: Droids, Ewoks and Clone Wars (2003 series) respectively). The Old Republic is also a special case, due to how its still ongoing but its still not considered canon.
Logged
Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart but I am street smart.", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I am imaginary smart."

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #112 on: 11 Oct 2017, 09:41 »

Disney can say what they want, but as far as I'm concerned, only the trilogies and the spin-off movies are true canon. Everything else is secondary. Also, "any information from StarWars.com"? Canon shouldn't be that easy to change.

Also, they specifically mentioned the trilogies but not the spin-offs...does that mean that Rogue One isn't canon?
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Castlerook

  • Born in a Nalgene bottle
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,488
  • Captain Sarcastic
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #113 on: 11 Oct 2017, 09:47 »

Considering that Disney now owns Star Wars, they're the ones who decide what is canon, not you. You might think that the rest is secondary, but at the end of the day, they're the ones who spent $4 billion to have their say about canon.
Logged
Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart but I am street smart.", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I am imaginary smart."

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #114 on: 11 Oct 2017, 10:06 »

They spent $4 billion to make billions more in merchandising and box office sales. They can make their claims, and I wouldn't tell them to stop, but I don't have to acknowledge them. I never thought George Lucas's view on canon was particularly better, but at least the different levels of canon were sort of widely acknowledged.
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Tova

  • Born in a Nalgene bottle
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,087
  • Friendshipper
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #115 on: 11 Oct 2017, 13:06 »

Well, I don't actually expect the film specifically to resemble The Empire Strikes Back myself, for whatever that is

You do realise that The Force Awakens resembled The Phantom Menace which in turned resembled A New Hope. A mentor figure dies in the first film of the trilogy - Han died to a Force user as did Qui Gon as did Obi Wan. A lone pilot blows up the massive station in the finale of the first film - Am I talking about Poe Dameron, Anakin Skywalker or Luke. Likewise, the heroes have to get off a desert planet with little law to deliver a vitally important message - Jakku or Tattooine (twice)?

In turn Attack of the Clones resembled The Empire Strikes Back, as did Revenge of the Sith to Return of the Jedi.

Star Wars has become formulaic. The whole series is interchangeable at this stage, just swap out characters and the plot remains pretty much the same.

It hasn't become formulaic. It always has been. A New Hope is itself formulaic.

Same goes for the merch. George Lucas was just as cynical about it from the very first film. This isn't somehow new. Rewatch Spaceballs if you need convincing.

The Disney films aren't in some way less worthy of our attention than any other film in the franchise. If you don't like them, then of course that is your prerogative. No-one said you had to like them, canon or otherwise.
Logged
It's all about the jokes!

Akima

  • comeback tour!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,981
  • ** 妇女能顶半边天 **
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #116 on: 11 Oct 2017, 15:35 »

The thing about "canon" is that it has to be a shared, generally accepted view to mean anything at all. To say "that's not canon for me" is to say no more than "I don't like that". Shakespeare's canon, for example, is essentially just the accepted text of the works accepted by most scholars as being written by him. For one individual to decide that, say, Hamlet is "not canon" just doesn't really mean anything. This shared nature of canon makes "ownership" of the canon a peculiar concept. Could Disney buy the rights to J.R.R.Tolkien's books, and declare that the Silmarillion was not canon? Would it mean anything if they did? Does the fact that a canon is the work of a single author make a difference?

Long-running fictional "universes" with multiple authors are a relatively new thing (I'm not going to get into traditional collections of often-anonymous stories like the Ramayana, Greek myths etc. where questions of "ownership" don't generally arise*). I think comic-books are probably the earliest  example, and, even where one publisher has controlled the property since its creation, re-boots, re-imaginings, multiple universes etc. typically make continuity and canon meaningless. Even the owners of properties less tangled than comics, like Star Trek, for example, pay no real attention to the continuity of their universes, where it might get in the way of telling a good story, or just lazy writing (Yes, Star Trek: Enterprise, I am looking at you).

It seems to me that "canon" has changed its meaning to something like "officially recognised" which is quite unlike its dictionary definition. Beyond that, I don't think canon is a thing any more.

*Questions of ownership, and canon, definitely do arise with regard to the traditional collections of stories that are regarded as religious works, but the fictionality of them is arguable, and potentially likely to cause offence, so it's best to leave them out, I think.
Logged
"I am a font of merriment and good cheer."

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #117 on: 11 Oct 2017, 15:38 »

I don't know if the majority of people agree with me that the "canon" of Star Wars refers to the movies and nothing else, but it's a far cry from just me. Canon discussions rarely go well, so...I probably shouldn't have brought it up. I'll work on doing that less.
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Neko_Ali

  • Global Moderator
  • Older than Moses
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,073
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #118 on: 11 Oct 2017, 16:16 »

In this case it's an important distinction because of the widespread and greater mythos around Star Wars through dozens of writers of novels comics and other adaptions. Lucas pretty much let everyone go willy-nilly with what they wanted to do, but the understanding was only the movies were canon unless he said so. Disney dropped a firm line of what is and isn't canon, and it does include the official alternate media since they took over, plus the Clone Wars cartoon as well as the movies. That's not something that's open to interpretation. Kind of like saying the Earth is flat. People can think it is all they want, but the reality of the situation is they are wrong.

In the end it was probably the best way they could handle it. The long standing book series have developed a life of their own, but it would conflict with everything Disney wanted to do. It would have been the same case if Lucas was in charge of the sequel trilogy.  But they still left it open so that they could pull elements they liked from Legends, like Grand Admiral Thrawn, and use them in the canon universe.
Logged

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #119 on: 11 Oct 2017, 16:21 »

but the reality of the situation is they are wrong.
...how, though? For decades, the movies are canon view worked, but just because Disney suddenly decides otherwise, that's no longer even a valid alternative?

Edit: My point is, they can use whatever they want in their future movies if the books are secondary and that they can be rendered no longer true if the movies contradict them, but declaring that the books are movie-level canon restricts them more, does it not?
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Tova

  • Born in a Nalgene bottle
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,087
  • Friendshipper
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #120 on: 11 Oct 2017, 17:46 »

I'm with Akima on this one. If you want to discuss "canon," then you want at least to be clear on motivation, because if it's to mean anything, it has to serve some purpose. Otherwise, it starts to sound like you're discussing what "really happened" and what didn't, which is obviously nonsense because it's all fictional. None of it is "true."

From Disney's point of view, of all the fictional works set in the SW universe, they have to chose some subset, with which their new creations must draw upon and be consistent with. When you frame "canon" against that purpose, then the set they've chosen appears pragmatic and perfectly sensible, especially in cases where works may overlap in time, or in the personal timeline of a specific character. That's not really going to work.

So, declaring something non-canon isn't saying it isn't "true" (whatever that means). Just that they aren't going to try to remain consistent with it. If the movies don't contradict it, there's nothing stopping you from continuing to regard that book as "true".

If you like a book, then why get upset that Disney have decreed it "non-canon"? The book still exists, it's still just as enjoyable, and just as fictional. It's just that Disney aren't going to be drawing that set of events into their own stories. Well, if you don't care for what Disney is doing anyway, then this should have zero effect on your enjoyment of the book.

As Akima said, what does it mean to decide for yourself what set of works constitutes your personal canon? Does it mean "these are the stories I enjoyed?" Why not just say that?
Logged
It's all about the jokes!

Neko_Ali

  • Global Moderator
  • Older than Moses
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,073
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #121 on: 11 Oct 2017, 17:50 »

The books, comics and cartoons that are canon now are the ones created since Disney took over, with the exception of Clone Wars. All of the old books and the stories contained within are part of the Legends line, and not canon. So no, it doesn't restrict them. They are just using a multi-media approach to tell more stories.
Logged

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #122 on: 11 Oct 2017, 18:22 »

Hmm...interesting.
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,212
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #123 on: 11 Oct 2017, 20:10 »

Ok, Im noticing Ive had this weirdly inflexible definition of canon for an uncomfortable long time, much longer than Ive been part of tbe forum. Im not really sure why. Ill think about it.
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻

Case

  • Only pretending to work
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,217
  • Putting the 'mental' into judgemental
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #124 on: 13 Oct 2017, 05:47 »

Saw the new Star Wars 8 trailer.  I like the ambiguity of Rey's allegiance to the black and white sides of the force.  I also liked the internal conflict in Kylo.  I was not a fan of them bringing power levels to Star Wars.  Also Luke seems like a punk.  Still sorting out how I feel about the trailer.  Will totally see it in theaters.

Power levels?

And what's wrong with Punk-Luke?
Logged
Quote from: Rosa Luxemburg
Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter
Quote from: Akima
Besides which, forgiving other people is something you do for yourself, not for them.

LeeC

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,550
  • Who?! What?! What?! What?! Who?!
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #125 on: 13 Oct 2017, 06:52 »

"I have seen this raw strength once before" brought flashbacks of DBZ and power levels. It was one thing to be strong in the force before, but now its seems (granted this is just what I got out of the trailer) that Rey and I am assuming Kylo's strength in the force in over 9000.

Luke seems like a punk who doesn't want to help the galaxy.  He appears (again this is just what the trailer seemed and may not be the final product) like he will train Rey, something will happen, and he will abandon her or quit.

_____________________________

What would you call this "grey jedi" faction?  I always hated the term "grey jedi" since it makes it seem like its a light grey, considering the jedi are the light side.  Would you just say "the force?"  I know the TV shows do not influence the movies, but in the recent season of Rebels they encounter a force being (The Bendu as described earlier) that is neither light or dark.  He talks to the former jedi Kannan.  Kannan asks him if he is light or dark, jedi or sith.  The Bendu scolds Kannan saying "The force isn't even like that.  There is no light side or dark side; there is just the force."  I am parsing of course, but being that this show has Disney fully behind it, I wouldn't be surprised if that is what they are leaning to with this new trilogy and merely sprinkling it around in their TV series.  TFA, and the new trilogy, is essentially the millenials taking over the star wars ethos.  They are looking at the philosophies of the older generations and coming to their own new conclusion.  Maybe even realizing how the older generation, who are so polarized towards one side or the other, has left the galaxy in ruins.  They are coming up with their own philosophies of something in the middle.  Nothing is wholly good or wholly evil.  You have to find the actual balance of things for the betterment of the galaxy.  Balance in the force comes from balance of ones self.
Logged
Be excellent to each other, party on Dudes!

Neko_Ali

  • Global Moderator
  • Older than Moses
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,073
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #126 on: 13 Oct 2017, 09:36 »

Grey Jedi makes sense though, because the Sith originated from dissidents of the Jedi order. There have been other groups that use the Force, but they have largely died out. The Jedi remained the largest faction, devoted to the 'Light Side'. They embraced philosophy, helping others and restraint. Some of their order disagreed and explored manipulating the Force through emotion, passion. They were cast out and formed the Sith order becoming obsessed with only power and embracing the 'Dark Side', using techniques forbidden by the Jedi. But the important thing is that the Force itself makes no distinction, and may or may not be separately intelligent. The Light and Dark sides were invented by the Jedi, other factions of Force wielders just use the Force, or whatever name they called it.

The Grey Jedi are those who straddled the line between Jedi and Sith. They embraced part of both philosophies, using both reason and passion to explore the Force, but not falling prey to the fanatical blindness against the other side. Their numbers were never very high as they were not respected by either side. But both the Grey Jedi and Sith originally came from the Jedi order. Many of them literally as they started out training as Jedi but grew disillusioned and either left or were banished. Examples: Count Dooku used to be a Jedi master before he became Sith apprentice to Darth Sidious. Ahsoka Tano was a Jedi padawan who should and would have been made a Knight but was framed for terrorist attacks and banished from the order. Though she was proven innocent she refused to return and became Grey Jedi.

All of this is not new to Disney. These things existed as part of the referenced canon under Lucas and greatly expanded on in the EU/Legends line. It just wasn't dealt with directly in the first six movies, which were about the Jedi and Sith and the wars they were involved in.
Logged

Case

  • Only pretending to work
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,217
  • Putting the 'mental' into judgemental
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
« Reply #127 on: 15 Oct 2017, 12:24 »

"I have seen this raw strength once before" brought flashbacks of DBZ and power levels. It was one thing to be strong in the force before, but now its seems (granted this is just what I got out of the trailer) that Rey and I am assuming Kylo's strength in the force in over 9000.

Uhmmmh - While it's safe to assume that this forum is rather nerdy, maybe it would be worthwile not to assume that everybody is intimate familiar with DragonBallz, or its technical aspects? Some of us were exiled from that beautiful land called neoteny (just) before DBZ became a youth-culture phenomenon. (And what's the 9000 about? And how do you conclude that only Kylo Ren is ridiculously overpowered - why not Rey, too?)

Are you referring to Midi-Clorians? Or is it merely that the "Outsider with never-before seen Force-sensitivity going up against the evil Force-Goliath"-meme has become a bit tedious - certainly so after Luke was retconned as "The guy who defeated the most powerful Jedi of all times after two years of mostly autodidactic training in his meagre spare time".

I mean - what kind of monsters must Rey and Kylo Ren be if they scare someone who is himself the galactic gold-standard for 'ridiculously overpowered Jedi who handily defeated the last never-seen-before ridiculously overpowered Jedi while still green behind the ears'.

Tangential:
I always felt this was the central problem of the former Expanded Universe's novels about Luke, especially after Episodes I-III became canon, and the guy he defeated was elevated to "mythical levels of powerful" -> TDP. He's too damn powerful to easily write credible challenges for him, without invoking yet another attack from a belligerent species from beyond the known Galaxy.

I love Timothy Zahn's novels, but even he seemed to be struggling at times with the question of what a 40-, 50- or 60-year old Luke cannot do, when the 20-year old Luke already handily bested one of the most powerful and most-experienced Force-users ever, after two years of intermittent training, mostly by a Force-ghost. "Decisive Battle for the future of the Galactic Civilization was joined at 10:30 local time. Grandmaster Skywalker set course homewards at 10:41 ..." makes for a pretty boring read. Zahn solved this with the idea that while SeniorLuke was certainly capable of crippling battleships with his mind alone, using his full force-strength came with a price-tag: The more actively a powerful Force-user wields the Force, the more desensitized they become to its subtle guidances (force-assisted piloting, lightsaber combat, blaster-deflection are all passive 'talents'), so Luke put himself on a "Force-diet".

Luke seems like a punk who doesn't want to help the galaxy.  He appears (again this is just what the trailer seemed and may not be the final product) like he will train Rey, something will happen, and he will abandon her or quit.

Ah, ok. I sometimes forget that the word punk existed before punk-rock or punk-culture. Over here, it's mostly associated with punk-attitude and culture (wiki: "Punk-related ideologies are mostly concerned with individual freedom and anti-establishment views. Common punk viewpoints include anti-authoritarianism, a DIY ethic, non-conformity, direct action and not selling out."

Come to think of it: Patricide is certainly one of the purest expressions of anti-authoritarian attitude, even if you eventually settle for merely chopping Dad's hand off.

So yes, Luke is a punk in all meanings of the word. What else is new?  :wink:

« Last Edit: 15 Oct 2017, 12:39 by Case »
Logged
Quote from: Rosa Luxemburg
Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter
Quote from: Akima
Besides which, forgiving other people is something you do for yourself, not for them.
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up