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Clinton begs his mum to let Eyebrow Girl sleep over for the night

Clinton begs Claire, Marten and Faye to let Eyebrow Girl sleep over for the night

Clinton begs his mum to let Eyebrow Girl sleep over for the night; it turns into a longer-term thing

We cut back to Marten and Claire; Clinton's call for help interrupts a... moment

Bubbles has things to think about and notices a fire in the city... a BIG fire

We meet another of Jeph's new characters when she comes into CoD the next morning

New arc! Steve returns and he needs Marten's help for something!

New arc! Just what has Hannelore been doing with her time when she isn't at CoD?

New arc! May's probation hearing is coming up and she needs to persuade her friends to speak on her behalf

Other

[APersonAmI]

I have decided I like this person. Also, Brun is an awesome name.

I don't find it weird, though. I mean, I met two new people today. Their names where Varga ("Wolf") and Öhberg ("Island Mountain"), and my birth name is Per Person (Per, son of Per, thus my username). Depending on pronunciation, her nickname would sound like the Swedish words for brown, bridge or well. Her name would fit in over here.

Also, I am an aspie, and I wholeheartedly agree with Case.

Edit:

My cousin gets the same crap all the time... She (Patricia) goes by "Tricia" rather than "Pat" or "Patty"

Ugh. That sucks. I really wish respecting peoples preferred names were more common a courtesy then it is.

[JimC]

... very stoic demeanour. I wonder if it is trauma-induced, somewhat like with Bubbles. However, the point is that she doesn't emote easily and apparently doesn't socialise well either and this extends to her response to high-stress scenarios.

Grief folks. Like I said I've been in this situation (leave burning house carrying only what was to hand in the middle of the night) and I hope none of you ever have or ever will be, but the superficially calm demeanour is exactly the way all 4 of us in that house and the 2 people in the house next door behaved. This is not unusual behaviour in real life, at least in the UK.

And just for amusement I looked up Brunhildes on Linkedin, and the only one showing an abbreviation was using Brun...

[Is it cold in here?]

(Mod groping for exactly the right tone and content)
Speculation is what we're here for, inclusiveness of the mentally atypical is a core value, more than one of the moderators can sympathize with their struggles first-hand, everyone should listen to them. I haven't figured out the right balance. Meantime everyone please do your best, as Momo suggested for diverse spaces.
(/)

The way Brun thinks of it is "not good with emotions". She's not completely accepting of herself, in other words.

My diagnosis is Weird Quirk To Be Funny. J[damn you autocorrect] Jacques may take in in a different direction, though. He's been sensitive about depression, OCD, and gender dysphasia [fuck you, autocorrect,  d y s p h o r I a). Maybe he'll do the same for a new population this time.

[Method of Madness]

My cousin gets the same crap all the time... She (Patricia) goes by "Tricia" rather than "Pat" or "Patty"

I had a friend in college named Victoria who went by Toria.

[sitnspin]

I had a friend in college named Victoria who went by Toria.

I dated a Victoria for a little while who went by Tori.

[JimC]

Every generation has its own faults, and I'm beginning to suspect that hindsight may come to think that one of this one's is that, in seeking to be proactive about inclusiveness, its has maybe become a bit too keen on labelling people as being in need of inclusion.

[mikmaxs]

And if it is Autism that drives her character's unusual traits, I can't say I'm a particular fan of the representation here. (Amd it seems weird that she was so acute and on point in 3215.)

As an aspie, I'm going to have to ask you to clarify. Today's been an off day.

In reference to comic 3215, she's apparently able to quickly and easily discern the real source of Clinton's conflict, get right to the heart of the matter, and precisely steer him towards a clear and immediate self-realization. As an aspie myself, I only have my own experiences to go off of, but I can't possibly see that kind of immediate and precise social navigation ever being in my wheelhouse of skills.

In regards to her characterization as a whole, I just don't find her all too pleasant. Prior to the fire, she's willfully unhelpful, threatens Clinton for no good reason, and seems to dislike helping customers. After the fire she's not been as bad, though she's still done little to endear herself to me besides being in a sympathetic position. I can't easily care for someone who acts like an unhelpful dick most of the time, even if they're amusing and willing to be *less* of a dick if you call them out on it.

I'm all for representation, but I'd rather that representation be with positive characters.

[Morituri]

Indeed.  I've known a lot of unusual people in my life, and while I form opinions about how they think and react, I think of those opinions as just getting to know someone's personality.  I'm always fairly startled when someone refers to the personality of someone I know using a medical term - although, in some cases, they're correct, I can't help but thinking most cases "oh, the medical community has so trivialized that definition that it now applies to people whose problems aren't even serious.  As well as those whose problems are." 

Besides, a lot of those traits, while their bearers are unhappy people, are important to the proper functioning of a group.  You need a depressive around to temper the stupid optimism of most normals.  You need a few manic optimists and adrenaline junkies to explore and make new discoveries for your people, even if a bunch of them do get killed in the process. You need obsessives if anything important is ever going to get done.  You need an insomniac if someone is going to warn you when something is threatening your group at night.  You need the maladapted, to lead the way when it's necessary to adapt to a new situation.   You need a paranoid to warn you when someone really is out to get you - normal people never notice until it's too late.  You even need people who don't go into hysterics at a disaster if you're going to have an immediate and appropriate response. 

It's the mix of different people that survives.  If everybody were normal, the group would have too limited a range of responses and would fall into a sterile routine where nothing new ever happens, no new discoveries are made, no one has a clue how to adapt to anything new, and while most disasters would get a correct response, the group would be wiped out by the first few that they just don't have the right person to deal with.

So, yeah.  There are a bunch of personality types that have unhappy lives most of the time. The current fad is to try to medicate them out of existence.  But the traits that are problems for them personally, are often traits that society as a whole needs a few people to have.

[pwhodges]

If everybody were normal,

Perhaps "average" would be a fairer word to use.

a bunch of personality types that have unhappy lives most of the time.

In many cases this unhappiness is not inherent, but the result of society's response to them.  When society is more accepting, things improve for everyone.

[Eastrim]

I too find a bit tiresome this frenzied "medicalisation" of any variation from the way someone thinks "normal people" behave. Not everyone flies into hysterics under stress, as can be observed in TV coverage of disasters today, or old newsreels of bombed cities for that matter. Cultures also vary greatly in how far public displays of emotion are acceptable. People can be different without needing us to thumb through the DSM.

Grief folks. Like I said I've been in this situation (leave burning house carrying only what was to hand in the middle of the night) and I hope none of you ever have or ever will be, but the superficially calm demeanour is exactly the way all 4 of us in that house and the 2 people in the house next door behaved. This is not unusual behaviour in real life, at least in the UK.

This meme (in the sense of shared idea, not rickrolling) will probably die down as we get more interactions with Brun, but it bears nipping in the bud; It's not just her behavior after the fire that's atypical, so is her behavior and syntax before the fire. It may just boil down to a form of Comedic Sociopathy as IICIH opines, but she's been consistently characterized before and after she has a major event to react to as stoic and laconic, so focusing only on after the fire does her a disservice. I still suggest immigrant with English as a second language, combined with a turbulent history (Valkyrie is probably not on the table). We shall see.

[Morituri]

If everybody were normal,

Perhaps "average" would be a fairer word to use.

Perhaps it would.  Maybe "normal" is too pejorative. 

[Neko_Ali]

If everybody were normal,

Perhaps "average" would be a fairer word to use.

Perhaps it would.  Maybe "normal" is too pejorative.

When talking about people, it usually is. 'Normal' is usually implied as the desired and default state, and those that are 'abnormal' as being broken, flawed and/or unwanted. You can see how that would get people's backs up, because how they are is normal to them. Yet they are constantly told that there is something wrong with them, and because of it people will not want them around.

[Morituri]

In the circles I move in, "Normal" is usually an insult.

Unless, you know, it means at a 90 degree angle.

[cesium133]

I'm not just normal, I'm orthonormal. 

[APersonAmI]

In reference to comic 3215, she's apparently able to quickly and easily discern the real source of Clinton's conflict, get right to the heart of the matter, and precisely steer him towards a clear and immediate self-realization. As an aspie myself, I only have my own experiences to go off of, but I can't possibly see that kind of immediate and precise social navigation ever being in my wheelhouse of skills.

Data point of one, but I frequently pull of the first two steps when I observe the conflicts of others. Step 3 is more uneven, sometimes I succeed, and sometimes I don't. Often, people tell me later down the line that I was absolutely right, but in the moment I failed to make them understand. Ability to understand ≠ ability to communicate, basically.

On the subject of "normal", I have distressingly often gotten the question "can people with autism spectrum disorders be normal?” My response has usually been "Wrong question. If you meant "can they be happy", then yes, absolutely."

[Case]

If everybody were normal,

Perhaps "average" would be a fairer word to use.

Perhaps it would.  Maybe "normal" is too pejorative.

Well ... they can't exactly help being normal, so maybe you have a point there. 

I'm not just normal, I'm orthonormal. 

I'm complete!

Are you observable, too? 

I had a friend in college named Victoria who went by Toria.

I dated a Victoria for a little while who went by Tori.

I like listening to Tori Amos.

...
On the subject of "normal", I have distressingly often gotten the question "can people with autism spectrum disorders be normal?” My response has usually been "Wrong question. If you meant "can they be happy", then yes, absolutely."

Threadwin ...

[Morituri]

I regard much of the autism spectrum as completely sane.  Differently sane, perhaps.  But in many cases saner than I personally am.

We are normal (or average) to the extent that we are like others.  To me that's not an important question.

We are sane to the extent that we can live functional lives, interact productively, love, respect, and earn the love and respect of others.  That's by far more important, and there are a heck of a lot of different ways to be sane.

[War Sparrow]

and some Afrikaans from another whose parents were in Zuid Afrika.

This is kind of off topic, but I think it's super cool you know a bit of Afrikaans. For some reason.

More on topic:
I took Psych in University. It was almost a career choice. But my Abnormal Psych prof tried to hammer in the idea that it really only counted as a disorder if it negatively impacted the person's life, or those around them. Made it hard to, or impossible to, function without medication or therapy. Perhaps both, preferably just therapy though. We were all told we would probably diagnose ourselves at least once, because everyone does in a class like that, but chances were we were fine. The DSM IV-TR is pretty strict on what constitutes a diagnosis. Some might think too strict, but there it is.

 

[Kugai]

I think they just adopted another one.


Here's an interesting question, Emily and Brun in the same room.

[Zebediah]

Emily and Brun are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm not sure what spectrum that is, though.

[Kugai]

SIG

[Perfectly Reasonable]

Barry? Where's Barry? That guy is useless... never around when you want him.

Brün.
Definitely the umlaut, from the way Clinton tries to say it.

In other news, May discovers that after her facial reconstruction, her photo ID is invalid.

[TheEvilDog]

I'm all for representation, but I'd rather that representation be with positive characters.

Why? Is that really an accurate representation? I think a fairer representation is showing that sometimes there can be negative people. Being different from thes societal norm doesn't preclude that sometimes people can be jerks. Even if they don't set out to be.

If we do see a broad spectrum of people in the QC-verse, than isn't it more realistic and engaging to the reader that they run the gamut of of the emotional and temperamental spectrum as well?

[wlewisiii]

Comic.

Clinton is stepping up tonight in many ways.  Good for him.

[mustang6172]

Use your outdoor voice, Brun.

[Penquin47]

Oh, wow.  To everyone who's been wondering about Clinton's positive traits: here you are.  Dude's a Good Guy (not to be confused with a Nice Guy, which is a very different thing).  High degree of responsibility, calm in a crisis, willing to take care of others even when he has no obligation to do so.

Also, not a murderer.  Very important for being a good guy.

[mustang6172]

Please read the next sentence in the haughtiest tone possible.  His status as a non-murderer remains to be proven.

[SharpCookies]

So I ran to the forum which I have stalked for months now (this is my first post, hi guys) to come scream in excitement with my realization that BRUN IS TOTALLY AUTISTIC SHE IS GOING NONVERBAL SHE IS SO AUTISTIC WOW!! But it seems i already missed some of the discussion talking about it so... I guess I was late on the ball.

As a fellow autistic, seeing a canon autistic character in the comic would make me very happy. (although I always headcanoned Marigold as autistic, with her awkwardness, sort of low social skills, special interests in anime/games, trouble with executive dysfunction, etc etc, but I digress). I'm gonna have to disagree that her ability to help Clinton see the heart of the problem is something she couldn't do because she is autistic - I am a psych major and human service worker-in-training, and while I can have difficulty in those situations I am still able to decipher situations like that. Not all autistic people lack that ability - their skills and abilities differ, just like everyone's skills and abilities differ. And though she did initially come off as rude/threatening, I do think she is an interesting character and I wouldn't be too upset if she were the representation for autism as long as Jeph continues to treat it with care.

anyway NONVERBAL AUTISTIC IN A POPULAR COMIC I AM SO READY FOR THIS WOOOOH!! (sorry it gets me excited)

[MrNumbers]

Regarding 'normal' and 'average' I'm actually a big fan of the usage of the words 'neurotypical' and 'neuroatypical'.

It sounds far more factual and far less judgemental than most alternatives.

[mikmaxs]

I'm all for representation, but I'd rather that representation be with positive characters.

Why? Is that really an accurate representation? I think a fairer representation is showing that sometimes there can be negative people. Being different from thes societal norm doesn't preclude that sometimes people can be jerks. Even if they don't set out to be.

If we do see a broad spectrum of people in the QC-verse, than isn't it more realistic and engaging to the reader that they run the gamut of of the emotional and temperamental spectrum as well?

It's not that people can't be jerks, it's that I don't really know of many autistic characters in fiction who *aren't* jerks.

Not counting characters whose personality can be entirely summed up as 'Autistic', there are extremely few representations in popular culture, and of those who do show up, I can't really think of *any* that are 'Good' characters. The ideal is that the characters are portrayed as jerks and assholes who have some sympathetic traits, but more often than not the closest thing they get to a redeeming quality is that they function as the punchline for a joke or the driving force for a plotpoint or episode. I had to go *looking* for modern, positive portrayals in popular culture, and I could find *one* main character in a show that I'd heard of who fits the criteria. (Abed from community. I haven't seen much of the show.) And for every Abed, there's a dozen Sheldon Coopers.

I'm not saying that anyone has to be the perfect, ideal person with no character flaws in order to be good representation, but it'd be nice to have a more balanced spectrum (Pun!) of characters, rather than many, many assholes and jerks with only a few good people mixed in the bunch.

I'm optimistic about Brun, but the introduction of her character made it clear that she really wasn't a likeable person in the slightest. This might change overtime, Jeph usually takes a few weeks or months of comics to really pin down his characters, and even if the most recent comics her negative traits haven't been around at all (Though this is mostly true because there's not been a chance to showcase them), but if she keeps her personality from her introduction, she's just a repellent person to be around.

[Near Lurker]

Brün.
Definitely the umlaut, from the way Clinton tries to say it.

Wouldn't the umlaut make it more like "Breen"?

[Tova]

Regarding 'normal' and 'average' I'm actually a big fan of the usage of the words 'neurotypical' and 'neuroatypical'.

It sounds far more factual and far less judgemental than most alternatives.

Until they inevitably roll down the euphamism treadmill.

I'm optimistic about Brun, but the introduction of her character made it clear that she really wasn't a likeable person in the slightest. This might change overtime, Jeph usually takes a few weeks or months of comics to really pin down his characters, and even if the most recent comics her negative traits haven't been around at all (Though this is mostly true because there's not been a chance to showcase them), but if she keeps her personality from her introduction, she's just a repellent person to be around.

Claire was disliked when she was introduced, if that makes you feel better.

Because of the speculation around here, very small negative incidents or statements early in the introduction of a character tend to get blown out to full-blown character flaws.

Brün.
Definitely the umlaut, from the way Clinton tries to say it.

Wouldn't the umlaut make it more like "Breen"?

It's kind of like saying "Breen" with your mouth shaped like you're about to say "Broon."

Anyway, afaik, with or without the umlauts are valid variations on the spelling.

[mikmaxs]

I'm optimistic about Brun, but the introduction of her character made it clear that she really wasn't a likeable person in the slightest. This might change overtime, Jeph usually takes a few weeks or months of comics to really pin down his characters, and even if the most recent comics her negative traits haven't been around at all (Though this is mostly true because there's not been a chance to showcase them), but if she keeps her personality from her introduction, she's just a repellent person to be around.

Claire was disliked when she was introduced, if that makes you feel better.

Because of the speculation around here, very small negative incidents or statements early in the introduction of a character tend to get blown out to full-blown character flaws.

Well, I mean, she threatened Clinton with a harpoon, yelled at him for not wanting a beer, and I don't have a third thing but those first two were pretty darn bad. Calling them 'very small negative incidents' is an understatement.

Still, I can chalk that up to Jeph's introduction of her not working out as well as he'd intended. We'll see what her personality's like in a month.

[TheCollector]

Huh, ok with this page I admit I was wrong. She most certainly does seem to be autistic, which I actually do love more then if she'd been, whatever Shaw is, I still could never find out. But in the end let me say I LOVE HER SO MUCH! The day her first page came out I just loved her design, but figured that would be the only time we ever saw her, I am so glad she's becoming main though!

Also, I'm not the only one who feels Clinton looks a hell of a lot better like that am I?

[Tova]

Well, I mean, she threatened Clinton with a harpoon, yelled at him for not wanting a beer, and I don't have a third thing but those first two were pretty darn bad. Calling them 'very small negative incidents' is an understatement.

Still, I can chalk that up to Jeph's introduction of her not working out as well as he'd intended. We'll see what her personality's like in a month.

Yes, quite. When I referred to 'very small negative incidents', I was speaking more generally towards the forumites' reactions to the introduction of new characters, rather than to the reaction to Brun specifically. Waving a harpoon at someone is, as you say, a bit more serious.

Still, my reaction was "what happened to her to make her react that way to someone like Clinton," rather than "what a horrible person." Maybe that makes me ... atypical.

[Eastrim]

It's not that people can't be jerks, it's that I don't really know of many autistic characters in fiction who *aren't* jerks.

Most characters in fiction that observers label as autistic are not so. They merely have an ambiguous disorder that the writers can manipulate at whim for comedy or drama. See: Abed's shifting pop culture fixations and occasional sociopathic disregard for the mental harm he directly states he knows will come from his actions, everything about Sheldon Cooper. There's a reason they're never explicitly called autistic within their shows, though characters may dance around the terminology (there's an ass burgers pun in the Community pilot, but the DnD episode titles his game character Abed the Undiagnosable).

However, they are the closest thing to an autistic person that most people observing media see, which is a shame. There are definitely positive depictions, like Adam (2005ish film), and popular figures, like Temple Grandin, but they're pretty far below the pop culture radar.

Hey, at least it's not all Rainman idiot savant plot devices any more. That's progress.

Final note: I do find it annoying that people are diagnosing her with autism, especially as people start talking with an inherent assumption that she's autistic. Speculation is all well and good, but declarations are extremely premature and unjustified- there is not nearly enough information to go on yet for that.

[Mr. Doctor]

The autistic trait does seem to get a bit of ground now. I can't say I know a lot about this stuff but I have an alternative reason. Don't take offense, I'm just shooting out an idea:
She could also be extremely traumatized from a previous event that left her in schock and for lack of better terms, out of emotions left to give... Let's say... War? I recall someone in previous pages suggesting she might not have english as her mother tongue and she does look like she might come from an easter country.

(again, I'm doing a lot of speculation, hope it's ok with ya guys).

[Case]

Brün.
Definitely the umlaut, from the way Clinton tries to say it.

Errrh, no - it's just that the sound that Inglese make whilst pronouncing the 'double-o' is the closest approximation to the German 'u' they can achieve without risking major injuries of their oral cavity, pharynx and Epiglottis ...

Brün.
Definitely the umlaut, from the way Clinton tries to say it.

Wouldn't the umlaut make it more like "Breen"?

Well, in the sense that the Antarctic is included in the set of "Places that are not the Arctic" - YesnoUmhOkmaybeabit?.

'ü' is 'right in between' the sounds you make when you pronounce 'oo' and then pronounce 'e' - like, literally: When you go from the one to the other, your mouth makes an 'ü'. Take 'Huey', as in 'Huey Lewis and the News'. Now speak the word repeatedly - HueyHueyHueyHuey ... Good! Focus on the 'ue'! Excellent! FASTER!
HueyHueyHueyHueyHueyHueyHueyHueyHueyHueyHueyHuey ...

Let the two sounds blend into each other - that's right, go on!
ueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüü ...

Now you just forget about the 'h', avoid choking on your tongue and start thinking about a credible explanation for your roomates/neighbors/flock of children following you through the street about What the Hell it is you are doing ... 

[Carl-E]

The clock appears to be quite important to her, as well.  Perhaps related to a prior trauma, or just a coping "mechanism" (sorry  ). 

What happened to the scorch mark from panel 1 and the last comic?  I hope it just wiped off. 

I'm glad she latched onto Clinton.  I've been in positions like this before (not with fire, but other trauma) and it's important to have a steady hand nearby that knows what happened and how to react, even without complete understanding. 

[BenRG]

Wow. She's got big issues with emotional extremes, it seems. So bad that it screws up her ability to function until she crests tthe hill. I wonder if she'll be able to do anything for a while!

Carl-E is right: That clock is important to her. Maybe watching the hands moving around the dial is calming in some way? If so, it is probably something that is very important to her. The vanishing scotch mark might be a hint in this direction. I can see her lovingly wiping the mark away when Clinton wasn't looking.

Cute touch: As the walls started to crumble, she feels safe enough with Clinton to make physical contact and choose him to help her. It says a lot about Clinton's character that she so quickly has come to trust him, especially given that she clearly has previously had problems with people trying to run her life (trying to assign names is never a good start).

A prediction: Brun is going to be the most challenging regular character to write that Jeph has ever had in the strip.

[ankhtahr]

Okay, she's getting melty. Poor her. I know this, both from the inside, and lately a little more from the outside. Chances are high that I'm on the spectrum, and my partner definitely is. I had to help through meltdowns several times now.  Pretty sure now that Brun is neurodivergent.

And good job, Clinton. Bring her to a quiter place. She might cry soon. Calming her down won't be too easy, but being there for her will help.

[sitnspin]

WRT the shortening of names, one could consider me unfortunate. "Seb" is really the only way to shorten Sebastian, so I definitely don't have any options!

I've most often heard it shortened as Bass.

[TheCollector]

Ok, so I did a bit of looking around, and I found this page with this woman talking about her son, who's on the spectrum, when he gets very upset he tends to just stop talking entirely, and only communicates if necessary through gestures and things like that kinda like how Brun is doing this page.

Selective Mutism caused by anxiety.

So while it is indeed still to soon to work out the rest, I'm pretty sure this little piece is solved.

[QuestionableIntentions]

And the cast gets someone else with severe psychological issues! Whoda thunk it?

[Kugai]

And the cast gets more eclectic with the introduction of Brun

And great going there Clinton.  Proves he's not entirely an asshole when the chips are down.

[anahata]

The clock appears to be quite important to her, as well.

Lends weight to the theory that she's picked up some German culture...
Not being derogatory by the way - I spent some time in Germany and noticed how they were always checking the time, and when you arranged to meet someone both parties were expected to arrive punctually. I really liked the way that you didn't have to hang around waiting, and when I returned to England everything seemed terribly sloppy in comparison.

I don't know if the clock also fits in with the autism theory, but I can imagine how it might.
I wonder if Jeph has had any contact with autistic people. He must know something about the condition if he's going to portray it (as he surely would want to) realistically and sympathetically.

[ankhtahr]

It's not really mutism, and usually it's not actually anger. This phenomenon is usually referred to as meltdown and happens when one is completely overwhelmed by all the emotions. Talking is too difficult then. Any contact with the world is difficult. One tries to shut out everything. Having somebody around to take care of the necessary things, while one is not able to perform them, is a great help.

[sitnspin]

Depression is similar in that regard in that when it becomes overwhelming, just dealing with ordinary everyday things gets to be too difficult, if not impossible. It manifests differently, obviously, but I get it. I have depression linked with psychosis and when my depression gets really bad, functioning at all is a serious challenge.

[Lubricus]

I like Brun better for each strip she appears in. And I don't agree at all that she is anything like Faye - she seems a completely different animal to me. I'm amazed at Jeph's ability to write (and draw) interesting female characters.

[ZoeB]

How tiresome. At least I rescued the clock. I'll just take a moment of time out before thinking about what to do next, where to sleep etc".

OK, timeout over. Now to deal with the fact that I'm human and not ready to deal with this without help.
Everyone rescued? Check. Major crisis over? Check. OK to break down into a helpless mess? All systems go. A delay until I have a roof over my head would be better, but the warp drives canna take it cap'n.

Super luck out that Clinton's there. I expect others to join in as needed. Claire, Marten....