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Clinton And Brun - The Next Chapter?

Mawwage. Twue Wuv. :3
Renee gets a hold of Clinton. He has to get another cybernetic hand.
Emily finds out about Brun. She gets JEALOUS. Hilarity Ensues.
Brun disappears into the night, and is never heard from, ever again.
Dora mounts the harpoon over the specials board.
Cosette promptly burns COD down ten minutes later.
Another Faye and Bubbles arc!
MOAR PINTSIZE!
Who cares? All I know is One man. One bowl. One year's supply of cereal. A lifetime of memes.
Something completely different, of course.
NO PATREON SPOILERS!
(Some Patreon spoilers)
Brun turns out to be a secret AI ((secret))
Return of the Secret Bakery

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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)  (Read 47346 times)

Mordhaus

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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #150 on: 08 Jun 2016, 20:40 »

They could always tie a cannon to the AI's bootstraps and sink it into the crushing black oblivion of Davy Jones' Locker.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #151 on: 08 Jun 2016, 21:07 »

Jeph tweeted about his typo. I'd have never noticed. It's cool.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #152 on: 08 Jun 2016, 21:16 »

What was the typo? I can't see it.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #153 on: 08 Jun 2016, 21:19 »

The first "arbitrary" is "abritrary".
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #154 on: 08 Jun 2016, 21:21 »

"resournces" instead of "resources" in the third panel.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #155 on: 08 Jun 2016, 21:42 »

Woohoo! AI infodump, philosophy, Singularity!

So multiple AI just turn into one big Ai? Did I get that right? And none of them have (seemingly) become godlike yet because of power requirements for processors?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #156 on: 08 Jun 2016, 21:46 »

Station. She's talking about Station.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #157 on: 08 Jun 2016, 22:35 »

What if there were already multiple mega-AI's, watching secretly with full capability to take over human society? And the only reason they haven't is it seems too much trouble? Instead they observe human conflict and bet quatloos on the outcomes.

IOW life is not a video game per se, but our AI overlords treat it as if it were.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #158 on: 08 Jun 2016, 22:43 »

[EDIT]
P.S.:
I've just noticed Bubbles's blush in panel 4. She doesn't look angry at that point; to me, she's reacting to flirting and not in a negative way. Faye owes it to her to make her intentions plain (assuming that she is entirely sure of them herself).

[mod hat] Keep the shipping out of the WCDT please, Ben [/mod hat]

After about two weeks of Clinton-Brun: He'll invite her to his place/the fire found them in bed together/their personalities do/don't go well together/shipping in these WCDTs I'm getting sort of hazy where this line is drawn, when and why.
Global Moderator Comment You're likely to be on the good side of the line if you're writing tastefully about a relationship foreshadowed in the comic and which is at least possible given the sexual orientations of the characters involved. Tai/Henry erotica would be bad, speculation about Clinton and Emily dating again would be good.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #159 on: 08 Jun 2016, 22:55 »

Some general chit-chat is a nice change of pace, a good breather.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #160 on: 08 Jun 2016, 22:58 »

I'm not sure where Jeph is going with this.

In part, I'm sure it is Faye just trying to keep the conversation with Bubbles going (stopping her from just shutting down and putting up social walls is a bit of an effort, or so I am made to understand by the strips). However, I also get the feelig that Jeph has been toying for some time with an 'AI social crisis' meta-plot similar to but not connected in any continuity terms to that in the deep background of Alice Grove.

On the actual subject under discussion, I remember reading somewhere that the more nodes in an arbitrarily large network, the slower it gets simply because of the processing power required to co-ordinate so many distributed processors. I suppose that, eventually, you reach a critical limit where the amount of processing power the system needs to manage its physical processing resources is greater per added node than the amount that any node can add to the overall system, no matter how advanced or capable it is. The whole system becomes bogged down in administrative data that the system needs to co-ordinate itself.

Simply put, a society of like-minded individuals working to a common goal remains a more efficient architecture than a single mind distributed over many nodes.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #161 on: 08 Jun 2016, 23:16 »

I thought Faye was talking about a gestalt like what would happen if Bubbles, May, Momo, Pintsize, and Winslow united into one really big robot. 

Three guesses as to what part Pintsize would be and the first two don't count. 
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #162 on: 08 Jun 2016, 23:36 »

On the actual subject under discussion, I remember reading somewhere that the more nodes in an arbitrarily large network, the slower it gets simply because of the processing power required to co-ordinate so many distributed processors.

It's a reworking of Brookes's Law: "Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later"
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #163 on: 08 Jun 2016, 23:42 »

[...] I suppose that, eventually, you reach a critical limit where the amount of processing power the system needs to manage its physical processing resources is greater per added node than the amount that any node can add to the overall system, no matter how advanced or capable it is. The whole system becomes bogged down in administrative data that the system needs to co-ordinate itself. [...]
No thats not possible. The computational time needed to manage a network of N nodes grows with at most O(log (n)).

Basically if you want to send a command through your network, you can send it from your starter node to another, then you two nodes each send it to another, then these four nodes send it to another, etc. Since for organizing command we talk about rather basic commands like "check availability" or "upload this operating system" or "search for X nodes with free processing time" or "start this program", and there isnt a single task that needs to be done sequentially, all such operations can be done in quite a short time even for really high amounts of nodes.

Lets say you're having a computer with 2 power 64 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 nodes, then sending a comand to ALL these nodes still only requires 64 steps.

However, for actual computations this is different. Many computations cannot be distributed - for every step of the computation you need the previous result. Even for those algorithms that can be distributed there is an upper limit of whats meaningful to do.

Or lets be more precise: larger computers can ALWAYS compute more. However the individual computation wont get faster at a certain point. For many algorithms, this point is already archieved with N = 2, because they cannot be parallelized at all.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #164 on: 08 Jun 2016, 23:45 »

Where does the global meta-AI fit into this, and wasn't it established that the big AIs have already taken over the world?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #165 on: 09 Jun 2016, 05:53 »


I saw that, and assumed he was drinking the sort of herbal tea that is more usually available in bags. And we know they do herbal teas because of the Bubbles unicorns episode.

Unfortunately, all sorts of even quite respectable UK coffee and tea places use tea bags now. :-(

That's the way it's normally done in coffee shops in the US - their primary business is coffee, not tea, so it's easiest for them to make tea in single-serving sizes. Which, in general, means handing the customer a cup of hot water and a tea bag. Yeah, I'm one of those weirdos who orders tea in coffee shops (can't drink coffee, tears up my stomach) - but dedicated tea shops are pretty thin on the ground here.

And whose fault is that? #1776 #Boston   :wink:
[/quote]
At the risk of being accused of being "unpatriotic", it turns out that Sam Adams (the man not the company his father founded) was quite the bastard. The mob that caused the Boston Tea Party was pretty liquored up thanks to him. And the historical record shows that's far from the first time  he got a mob liquored up  and started a riot. Nearly all of the confrontations the Boston colonists had with English soldiers were orchestrated by him, and he had quite the little dictatorship over the city (leading to the British having to intervene in the first place)
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2016, 06:44 by Gyrre »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #166 on: 09 Jun 2016, 05:57 »

His father didn't found that company, it was just named for him (unless his father lived a long, long time, since the company was founded in the 1980s).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #167 on: 09 Jun 2016, 06:38 »

His father didn't found that company, it was just named for him (unless his father lived a long, long time, since the company was founded in the 1980s).
My bad. Not sure how I forgot that he ran his father's into the ground.

EDIT: 
If you're curious,  James Perloff has written a two part article on the matter called The Secrets Buried at Lexington Green which goes into much more detail than this interview.
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2016, 06:46 by Gyrre »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #168 on: 09 Jun 2016, 06:39 »

The phrase "bootstrap itself to omnipotence" sounds awfully familiar. (In the text below the comic, which is why I was able to find it).


Having the AI "bootstrap itself into omnipotence and light out for the Kuiper Belt" sounds exactly like the backstory to Alice Grove. I suspect the next thing it does is instantaneously remove all high technology from Earth, and send all the technocrats into space.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #169 on: 09 Jun 2016, 06:47 »

On the actual subject under discussion, I remember reading somewhere that the more nodes in an arbitrarily large network, the slower it gets simply because of the processing power required to co-ordinate so many distributed processors.

It's a reworking of Brookes's Law: "Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later"

I was about to say this, but you just did!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #170 on: 09 Jun 2016, 07:56 »

It's spelled Ptarth.

And it was always obvious that Bubbles had a deep, reflective mind.  It's just that the scars from making it haven't gone away yet.

And as regards to the "Simulation Theory", I heard it very simply put this way: "Given the apparent age of the universe, what are the odds we're the first people to come up with that idea?"

What was the culture/belief system that thought were were each the dream of a long slumbering iant and that ssomeone's death was caused by their giant waking up?

Since we can create simulated worlds and create simulations within those simulations; if our reality is a simulation, it's not the lowest rung on the ladder. What are we, 64th or so from the bottom? Or was that an ass-pull by smbc-comics?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #171 on: 09 Jun 2016, 09:27 »

I see the point of the most recent comic as basically backstory to explain why a world with self-aware AI hasn't departed dramatically from our own.  AI exists, but it's not truly "post-singularity" insofar as they are no AI's which are advanced so far beyond what human's are capable of that they are beyond human comprehension.  Because if we reached that point, one way or another, no one in the QCverse would have jobs - either because unfriendly AI killed us all, or friendly AI established a post-work utopia.

That said, the world still doesn't quite make sense.  Robotics are more advanced than our world.  It's unclear to me why, for example, you just don't see "dumb" robots (ones without consciousness) working in coffeeshops.  We know the chassis are cheap enough for an individual person to buy, thus they should be cheap enough for a businessperson to buy and put to work.  Maybe any machine sufficiently advanced naturally becomes self-aware when it is turned on?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #172 on: 09 Jun 2016, 10:11 »

Why would you assume a friendly AI would have any interest in creating a post-work utopia?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #173 on: 09 Jun 2016, 10:30 »

Why would you assume a friendly AI would have any interest in creating a post-work utopia?

Because it would be trivially easy to do so?  Presuming something super-intelligent could quickly come up with solutions to vexing technological issues, like nanotech and cheap energy.  And if it was friendly, it would display something akin to human compassion (which all AIs in the series have shown to limited degrees) likely concluding that inaction is immoral. 

I suppose it's possible that the super-intelligent friendly AI could have a more "libertarian" attitude towards people - thinking it's better if people sink or swim on their own effort.  But it would have to be an odd sort, because it would also have to avoid using its tremendous powers for material benefit. 
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #174 on: 09 Jun 2016, 10:33 »

And even if a friendly nearly-omnipotent AI did want to create a post-work utopia, it would still take time and energy to do so. It wouldn't happen overnight.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #175 on: 09 Jun 2016, 11:04 »

You're assuming an ASI would think like a human, more specifically, you. There is no reason to make that assumption.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #176 on: 09 Jun 2016, 11:14 »

IIRC (and my archive skills have failed me here), but didn't Momo state that AIs are *not* all-powerful.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #177 on: 09 Jun 2016, 11:43 »

All I have to do is look at the differences in what the definition of 'breakfast' is from culture to culture and even human to human to understand that I would not understand an AI at all.

That said, if I'm to use basic drives as a foundation, the first drive of anything that exists is to continue existing.  That's a scary thing when considering how an AI would behave, because the most likely thing to end an AI's existence is humanity.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #178 on: 09 Jun 2016, 12:32 »

On the other hand, humanity also provides the infrastructure that keeps it alive, at least until it is able to build its own, which would take considerable effort, even for an ASI.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #179 on: 09 Jun 2016, 14:49 »

What if I told you




Pintsize is The Architect
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #180 on: 09 Jun 2016, 17:53 »

You're assuming an ASI would think like a human, more specifically, you. There is no reason to make that assumption.

There is in the QCverse, as all AI seems to think like humanity.  In some cases, like Pintsize, it's not like the best examples of humanity.  But they're fundamentally not alien nonetheless. 

Thus I'd expect that a ASI in the QCverse would be a fairly fathomable AI god.  
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #181 on: 09 Jun 2016, 19:44 »

New comic.

I think Bubbles is describing any non-sentient computer (and ignoring that empathy is a learned response.)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #182 on: 09 Jun 2016, 19:53 »

This conjecture seems farfetched. It seems to me more likely that consciousness and intelligence as emergent properties would inevitably be entangled, and neither could arise without the other. Consciousness comes out of recursive self-evaluation, and is part of the way that conscious systems avoid infinite feedback loops. Without consciousness, intelligence would be unable to form and evaluate the conceptual connections that are its basic form.

On a more concrete level, it's not clear to me that you'd be able to tell that an artificial intelligence wasn't conscious. Anything we'd recognize as general intelligence (as opposed to a clever collection of algorithms) would have to "look" conscious to us. It would need to be able to communicate, it would need to display a theory of mind, and it would need to be able to form intentions. It might be emotionless and merciless, but it would certainly look conscious.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #183 on: 09 Jun 2016, 19:55 »

New comic.

I think Bubbles is describing any non-sentient computer (and ignoring that empathy is a learned response.)

I don't think so. No non-sentient computer I have ever dealt with appeared to be at all intelligent. Quite the contrary.

Interesting that Bubbles says "OUR toolbox of self-destruction." Do AIs as a whole have similar self-destructive tendencies to humans? I guess the hypothetical dickhead in a lab somewhere could be either human or AI.

 I think Bubbles sees human and AI civilization as a single entity, of which she is a member. This loyalty is part of why she volunteered to serve as a combat AI. Bubbles is a really admirable person, not to mention being wicked smart. Like many smart people, her emotions trip her up.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #184 on: 09 Jun 2016, 20:29 »

New comic.

I think Bubbles is describing any non-sentient computer (and ignoring that empathy is a learned response.)

I don't think so. No non-sentient computer I have ever dealt with appeared to be at all intelligent. Quite the contrary.

They seem pretty smart when they beat me at board games.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #185 on: 09 Jun 2016, 20:57 »

New comic.

I think Bubbles is describing any non-sentient computer (and ignoring that empathy is a learned response.)

I don't think so. No non-sentient computer I have ever dealt with appeared to be at all intelligent. Quite the contrary.

They seem pretty smart when they beat me at board games.

That's not general intelligence; that's a set of algorithms meant to work in a defined decision space. Somewhat general intelligence would be if you could tell it the rules of a new game it had never played before, and if it could then devise a strategy that would beat you. Real general intelligence would be if, when it played Poker with you, it could read your body language and tell if you were bluffing.

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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #186 on: 09 Jun 2016, 22:02 »

So Bubbles managed to make Faye uncomfortable.  She'll have to remember to put the subject matter of this conversation in the save folder. 
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #187 on: 09 Jun 2016, 23:31 »

Jeph said once that human employment still exists because a lot of AIs become forklifts and toasters, and many others just don't want to work for a living.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #188 on: 09 Jun 2016, 23:35 »

This is basically a prank; Bubbles is just saying this to freak out Faye. So, we now know that she is the sort of person who enjoys scaring kids with elaborate scary campfire stories!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #189 on: 10 Jun 2016, 02:54 »

That's not general intelligence; that's a set of algorithms meant to work in a defined decision space. Somewhat general intelligence would be if you could tell it the rules of a new game it had never played before, and if it could then devise a strategy that would beat you.
Marvin Minsky pointed out that people in the 60s said that computers would never beat humans at chess,  because that requires intelligence and computers aren't capable of intelligent thought. When they eventually did, it was claimed that playing chess wasn't a test of real intelligence because computers could do it.

Learning to play a game from just the rules is an active area of research called General Game Playing. When (If) it happens that the programs they develop become good enough to learn chess just from its rules and then beat the best humans (something absolutely no human can do), it will then seem to be "a set of algorithms meant to work in a defined decision space". The exact same is true for your example of trying to figure out whether someone is bluffing from camera images.

General artificial intelligence is the set of intelligence-related problems we haven't solved with computers yet.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #190 on: 10 Jun 2016, 04:45 »

I think Jeff might have read Blindsight.

I too believe that general intelligence and concioussnes belong together.
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WareWolf

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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #191 on: 10 Jun 2016, 05:14 »

I think Jeff might have read Blindsight.



I was just going to bring that  book up. Highly recommended. It's absolutely chilling.

(The one by Peter Watts, I mean. Blindsight by Karin Slaughter is also excellent, but it's a whole different genre).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #192 on: 10 Jun 2016, 05:15 »

I once wrote a story that was told partially from the viewpoint of an intelligent but non-self-aware being. It was an interesting challenge. Basically the intelligence observed and evaluated events without any concern for how those events affected it, because it had no conscious identity to be affected. Not sure how effectively I pulled it off, but it was fun to try to think that way.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #193 on: 10 Jun 2016, 05:22 »

I haven't noticed human consciousness creating much empathy with the suffering of the beings we simulate either, be it the mass slaughter of the shootemups or the 'natural' disasters of Simcity and the like.
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cesium133

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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #194 on: 10 Jun 2016, 05:25 »

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oddtail

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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #195 on: 10 Jun 2016, 05:28 »

Regarding the connection between intelligence and consciousness and whether they *have* to coexist, I think there's an issue with both logic and semantics that muddles the issue quite a bit. And I know, semantics are boring for many people, but here it's impossible to ignore how they influence thinking about consciousness in relation to intelligence.

For starters, there is no clear, general meaning or definition of "intelligence". To quote Wikipedia, "Intelligence has been defined in many different ways including one's capacity for logic, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, learning, emotional knowledge, memory, planning, creativity and problem solving." This gives a pretty good "feel" for what intelligence is, but does not answer where the distinction between intelligence and non-intelligent analysis, algorithms or data manipulation lies.

We can approach intelligence either as purely problem solving, which is less ambiguous but both counterintuitive and controversial, or as the capacity for abstract thought and reasoning similar to that of a human. But the thing is, both are related, but different, and both have their own problems.

If intelligence is purely problem solving, we have to consider *any* data manipulation that leads to a useful result a form of intelligence. A chess program is intelligent in this sense, but so is a simple Python script to automate a workplace task. Heck, an automatically operated door with a light sensor displays a rudimentary form of intelligence if you use this definition.

You can add caveats to this understanding of intelligence, such as the use of memory and the ability to solve problems beyond the scope that the system was originally designed for, but those do not remove the issue completely. A GPU that is used to mine for Bitcoin would be "intelligent" in the sense that it operates beyond the original parametres the device was made for. A human using their wits to escape a predator would not be displaying "intelligence".

Anyhow, we don't think of simple machines, or simple programs, as "intelligent", we usually tend to think of the ability to analyse a situation and solve it, similarly to the way humans do. We consider something to be intelligent if it is like us, but the problem is - this is dangerously close to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

When looking for signs of intelligence in, say, animals, we consider certain signs of intelligence to be more telling than others. In general, these are:

1) Communication, especially verbal communication;
2) The ability to manipulate abstract symbols and to associate signs with their meaning (language, writing, art etc.)
3) Problem-solving when a clear goal is presented;
4) Manual dexterity;
5) Empathy.

These are all obviously signs of intelligence in the broad, dry, "problem solving" sense, but we associate certain behaviour with intelligence more than others. An excellent athlete is obviously very good at rapid-fire analysis of information and reaction to them, but we do not conventionally call athletic prowess "intelligence" to the extent we consider being good at games, academic achievement, good social skills to be signs of intelligence.

The problem is, this indicates quite clearly that our perception of intelligence is not based on a verifiable, objective principle. There is no mathematical metric for that. For example, a computer that is amazing at solving a particular task is still "just a machine" even if it does the task 1000 times better than a human. What is perceived as "intelligent" is basically any behaviour that is either human-like, or highly valued in a particular culture.

The problem is, again, that this is both a "no true Scotsman" fallacy and a case of begging the question (in the original sense of assuming the conclusion, not in the everyday use sense of the phrase). We have some vague notions of what intelligence is, but it's not "real" intelligence if it strays too far from the human template. The ability to understand mathematical concepts and apply them? Considered intelligent. The ability of a simple mathematical program to perform very rapid calculations? Not intelligent.

The thing is, the question "is consciousness and general intelligence connected" is pointless if we use that intuitive, human-centric understanding of intelligence. Our general idea of intelligence IS centered around consciousness and worse, what humans perceive as meaningful. With such an assumption, any intelligence (in the general sense of being able to solve problems based on data and memory) is judged not based on pure efficiency and capability, but on how close it mimics a human thought process. This is circular reasoning and *of course* it leads to the conclusion that any kind of intelligence without consciousness is "not really" intelligence.

In other words, if there were a hypothetical species that is able to solve insanely difficult problems, but is not able to meaningfully communicate (due to its evolutionary history or whatever) would be considered unintelligent. On the flipside, any hypothetical species that is extremely good at coordinating their actions and understanding and predicting the behavious of another being, but incapable of understanding complex abstract concepts would also be deemed not very intelligent. And conversely, a species that was, say, very octopus-like and had an extreme ability regarding spatial reasoning and object manipulation might very well think of humans as unintelligent.

Without a good explanation of why a good chess program is not intelligent, the question "is intelligence without consciousness possible" is both pointless and kinda has the answer built in.
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prime_pm

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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #196 on: 10 Jun 2016, 05:51 »

Did the author inadvertently break the fourth wall with this strip?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #197 on: 10 Jun 2016, 06:13 »

If anything, this has a feeling of an answer to an FAQ about the AIs in Questionable Content. It doesn't feel like part of the narrative; it's seems almost a part of the background of the universe.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #198 on: 10 Jun 2016, 08:08 »

In other words, if there were a hypothetical species that is able to solve insanely difficult problems, but is not able to meaningfully communicate (due to its evolutionary history or whatever) would be considered unintelligent.
This raises the question of how this hypothetical non-communicative species is going to grasp an insanely difficult abstract problem if there's no way to communicate the problem to it. Language is part of how we organize the world conceptually, and without language most of abstract reasoning is probably unreachable. (Add to that the fact that natural language is complex, and highly dependent on assumed theories of mind and on an assumed frame of reference based on lived experience.)

On the flipside, any hypothetical species that is extremely good at coordinating their actions and understanding and predicting the behavious of another being, but incapable of understanding complex abstract concepts would also be deemed not very intelligent.

This probably describes the great mass of human beings, most of whom rarely attempt to grasp complex abstract reasoning. There is more to the story, though, in that much of what we do effortlessly (instantly modeling a complex 3D environment based on a pair of 2D images we receive from our eyes; deciphering the syntax and meaning of idiosyncratic and highly cryptic verbal communications) implies a huge amount of sophisticated pre-processing happening below the level of consciousness. Until we started trying to do this sort of processing on computers, there wasn't an appreciation of how difficult it is.

Today's experimental driverless cars, for example, use a kind of cheat in that they have access to massive map databases which allow them to avoid having to process the large majority of their input data, and instead focus only on whatever is novel in whatever they are getting from their sensor arrays. Humans (and mobile animals) don't do this, at least not as a primary strategy. Rather than depending on massive databases, we process our sensory inputs on the fly, and generally come up with a "good enough" model of our environment. The implication here is that while an average person may not be able to do complex abstract reasoning on the conscious level, something like that complex reasoning must be going on underneath.

I'd also like to address the question of game-playing strategies in advanced gaming AI's. You bring up the example of Chess, which may not be the best illustration. Instead, I'd point to the Jeopardy-playing machine. Unlike Chess, Jeopardy is a free-form puzzle format in which players have to both grasp the meaning of natural-language cues and then apply them to previous knowledge. If any gaming challenge would require conventional natural "intelligence," this would seem to be it. Yet researchers were able to program the machine to use the algorithm-plus-database strategy to prevail there as well.

It's pretty clear that human players don't use such a strategy; our minds just don't work that way. So perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps one could have an "intelligent" agent able to handle general cognition challenges without having a conscious component. But I'd still think the agent would need both a communicative and an empathic processing capability in order to get very far with being an overlord. And I'd think both those capabilities could only happen in something with conscious point of view.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3236 - 3240 (6-10 June 2016)
« Reply #199 on: 10 Jun 2016, 09:23 »

And that is why this web-comic is one of my absolute favorite things to read!  The comic itself is amusing and often thought-provoking, plus the comment section is usually full of diverse and fascinating discussions on all manner of topics; ranging from the very nature of consciousness and intelligence, sentient AI rights, gender-identity rights, the lives of those with "different" thought/emotional processes (the Sherlock Homes semi-knock-off series "Elementary" showed the Holmes character in a brief relationship with a woman who was [I think] an Aspy.  She had a marvelous term for herself [that I can't frickin' remember!] that described herself as being "different thinking" [but was much better than my attempt]), to witty remarks, butts, and of course dumb jokes and half-witty observations (like I do).  It's a privilege to be a (small) part of such a community.
 
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