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Bubbles and the Zen of being an AnthroPC AI

Faye has weird existentialist dreams

The Overmind Speaks

Corpse Witch is God

Brun is an Alien AnthroPc AI

Brun is God

Analysis of Clinton continues

Mystical Spathe Ham with Pizza and Lattes

Ohm mani Padma Ohm

Only The Architect knows

Mystical Purple Monkey Dishwasher

Jeph is God

Jeph is Life

[oddtail]

Everyone seems to constantly forget that Renee is in the dark and we are not.

Has she done anything to change that? Even the slightest sliver of effort? Not only she hasn't, but she dismisses any suggestions to the contrary of her preconceived notion. It's kinda hard to excuse her "being in the dark" when she makes a very valiant effort to stick to being in the dark.

So, is Renee's suspicion without cause? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know their history.

She has (probably) no history with Clinton specifically. Her own fears and prejudices are not a "cause" to be suspicious. I'm not saying it's not understandable that she might be overly cautious. I don't think anyone is disputing that. People are flawed and their objectivity can be flawed, too.

But the fact that she may have some history that makes her suspicious is not the point. The point is whether her approach is, for the lack of a better word, "right". And personal bias aside, this behaviour in this situation is not warranted. Clinton behaved in a way that may raise some red flags initially, but if we look in slightly more detail at what Renee knows, he did nothing unreasonable or dangerous. And, again, she learnt what she learnt not on her own, but was told by both Clinton and Brun their own interpretations of the recent events, and she stuck to her guns. Not only that, she didn't probe, she didn't question, she moved straight to aggression. Even in the event Clinton *was* a bad guy in this whole situation, that would accomplish nothing productive. And she has nothing to support the idea that he was, other than the fact that there are bad guys out there. I'm sorry, that's pretty weak a thing to go on.

It's OK to advise caution to Brun, but Renee completely dismisses the possibility that Clinton might be just a random stranger that helped.

And I'm sorry, but if I were in the exact same situation as Renee, I'd spend a good minute thanking the kind stranger for helping my friend, not YELLING at them. I would talk to the friend, make sure they are OK, advise to take the kindness with a grain of salt, and then proceed to assume the most reasonable, most probable, and most productive scenario - there was a guy and the guy decided to help. Because as someone pointed out in the thread, that's what people *do*.

And on the other side of the equation, if someone yelled at me for helping someone out, on the sole basis of my gender, I would (I think I may have made that point) immediately go "fuck you too, then". And stay the Hell away from the person I helped, just to make sure. I'm sorry, but being judged guilty on the basis of my Y chromosome just because someone has had possibly bad experiences with people is not reasonable levels of caution. It's insulting, it's counterproductive and the person who is overly worried should, at the very least, dig a little deeper to confirm their suspicions. Not do... this.

And I know there is no symmetry here, but imagine Renee had bad experiences with [insert group here]. And she behaved the exact same way to a member of that group (because hey, you can't PROVE a member of [insert group here] is not acting on bad intentions). I can't know for sure, granted, but I think you'd be less likely to give her the benefit of the doubt if the [insert group here] was, say, a racial (or other) minority. And again, I know this would not be the *exact* same situation, because white heterosexual men have had a completely different history, culturally, than any minority. But while white men are not an oppressed group, being one is not a crime, either. If it's unreasonable to jump to conclusions based on someone's race, sexuality, nationality, occupation, religion or whatever, jumping to conclusions based on being part of half the world's population doesn't strike me as justified, either.

[chaospersonified]

I'm seriously wondering now if I'm just surrounded by emotionally-broken people who've had horrible lives all day every day, or if you people arguing that Renee couldn't possibly have had an experience with an emotionally-manipulative predator are just lucky not to have met many victims of that sort of thing.

I've absolutely seen people do what Renee thinks Clinton is doing, and I'm pretty sheltered for my area. Would I respond in that exact way? No, but these things happened to acquaintances, not close friends, and I would probably feel differently if it were a close friend who'd gone through that.

[oddtail]

I've absolutely seen people do what Renee thinks Clinton is doing, and I'm pretty sheltered for my area.

I don't understand the reasoning. I've been cheated out of my money, but I still buy things online. I was once a punching bag (EDIT: emotional, not literal) for bullies for years, but I don't assume everyone is a bully. I've been beaten up, mugged and left bloodied on the pavement, but I don't assume I'm gonna be mugged every single time a stranger walks up to me to ask a question (and when I do, e.g. my "this guy has a shaven head and seems in good shape" alarm bells go off, I take a moment to collect myself and set aside my fear-based first assumption).

I'm sure I have it better than most people, but I assume even those extremely unlucky haven't had exclusively bad experiences with strangers. And assuming cruel and evil intentions from strange people, which *is* an attitude I've had in the past, tends to turn itself into a self-fulfilling prophecy, at least on occasion. Plus, assuming every person I pass on the street is out to get me? I don't think I'd be able to leave my house if I assumed that by default.

[jheartney]

My (hopefully final) take on Renee is she's written as a cartoonish paranoid for comic effect. Going forward, she might serve as a dramatic foil to push Brun in an uncomfortable direction, which might then include more tongue-in-cheek interactions with Clinton. Jeph might take it dark with a revelation of old deep trauma, but more likely it's all about launching Brun into a spot in the ever-growing QC cast. Given Brun's evident introversion, this might need a temporary antagonist (Renee) to force Brun out of her shell.

[pwhodges]

I've absolutely seen people do what Renee thinks Clinton is doing,

You've seen people who are involved in a disaster immediately take advantage of other victims as their response?

[Neko_Ali]

I've absolutely seen people do what Renee thinks Clinton is doing,

You've seen people who are involved in a disaster immediately take advantage of other victims as their response?

Yes. Just a few months ago a police officer was given a slap on the wrist for sexually assaulting an accident victim instead of helping her. There are plenty of cases of people who make it their business to bilk people who have just been through a tragedy. Have you never heard of the term 'ambulance chaser'? And that's mild compared to those who will bully and use the lack of knowledge of people who have been through disasters to accept a lower claim that they are due in the insurance industry, or just people who will see those reeling from disaster as easy marks. It's all to sadly common.

[DSL]

Stipulated: There are people who take advantage of people who.have been through a traumatic situation.
Stipulated: Clinton has been presented  to the readership as  wanting to help.
Renee knows nothing of Clinton or his motivations and has been shown to be suspicious of them and does not trust her friend Brun's read of them.
Renee has reasons for her suspicions. We don't yet know what they are or whether they would make sense to us. Whether they do or don't, or even whether Jeph explains them, they are what motivates her, and she is acting on them. People who are not fictional characters also do this. All. The. Time.

[chaospersonified]

I've absolutely seen people do what Renee thinks Clinton is doing,

You've seen people who are involved in a disaster immediately take advantage of other victims as their response?

Beginning with pretending be helpful, yes.

I live in a place that gets hit by hurricanes pretty often. We're never hit too bad, directly, but people come here after their homes get destroyed. I can think of a few abusive relationships that started with 'Oh, you poor thing, come live with my family for a few months until everything gets settled.'

[chaospersonified]

Never starts out abusive. Sometimes ends up that way, though. Certain people will take advantage of innocents at their most vulerable.

[pwhodges]

I've absolutely seen people do what Renee thinks Clinton is doing,

You've seen people who are involved in a disaster immediately take advantage of other victims as their response?

Yes. Just a few months ago a police officer was given a slap on the wrist for sexually assaulting an accident victim instead of helping her. There are plenty of cases of people who make it their business to bilk people who have just been through a tragedy. Have you never heard of the term 'ambulance chaser'? And that's mild compared to those who will bully and use the lack of knowledge of people who have been through disasters to accept a lower claim that they are due in the insurance industry, or just people who will see those reeling from disaster as easy marks. It's all to sadly common.

By "involved", I meant "another victim".  Which Clinton was, even though he didn't suffer the major losses that Brun did.

[Gyrre]

For what it's worth, I sort of think it's disrespectful of parents to choose a name for their child before they've even met them and started to learn who they are.  And a bit odd that people no longer have a traditional rite of passage wherein they choose their adult name for themselves.

Seriously, get to know the kid for a week or two before you pick a name.  Introduce the child to the rest of your family, see if anyone has insight into who they are and what name will suit them.  Might be a good chance for the family to discuss what they hope for the child and what sort of life they can provide and how.

I recognize that I'm more-or-less alone in this opinion, aside from a few others whose general attitudes and culture are rooted in a different century.   And of course governments now want a name stamped onto a child immediately for a birth certificate.  But I still find the modern custom baffling and bizarre, no matter how many times I see it and no matter how normal it seems to everyone else.

I would have gotten something among the lines of "Colicky" if it were just for the first week.

[Gyrre]

Perhaps this love of counting could help her form a bond with Hanners, who likes drumming for the same reason.

I wonder if either of them would be fans of SYRSA ?

[Thrudd]

I will also admit that I want a 24 hour flip clock for my alarm clock. (The problem with this is, most of them are European, and therefore won't work on US power. Step-up transformers usually aren't even the answer, because they're using synchronous motors that are set up for 50 Hz.)

I might be a little late to this but my mum "borrowed" mine years ago so they were available to 60hz utilities. The trick is finding one in either a sally-ann or some other thrift style store. Pawn shops I avoid except to giggle at the ludicrous asking prices. Yard sales in older neighborhoods are also good.
RE: tin foil hat, most times it is aluminum these days. Also they have been proven [science FTW] to colect and concentrate signals in the bowl. So hey, great for boosting the signal strength for greater fidelity and clarity of thos mind control signals.

So? How often do strangers help strangers with no ulterior motives? I mean, it happens, sure, but there's every chance Renee's life has lead her to believe it doesn't.

Are Boy Scouts really that rare?

[Tova]

I've absolutely seen people do what Renee thinks Clinton is doing,

You've seen people who are involved in a disaster immediately take advantage of other victims as their response?

Yes. Just a few months ago a police officer was given a slap on the wrist for sexually assaulting an accident victim instead of helping her. There are plenty of cases of people who make it their business to bilk people who have just been through a tragedy. Have you never heard of the term 'ambulance chaser'? And that's mild compared to those who will bully and use the lack of knowledge of people who have been through disasters to accept a lower claim that they are due in the insurance industry, or just people who will see those reeling from disaster as easy marks. It's all to sadly common.

By "involved", I meant "another victim".  Which Clinton was, even though he didn't suffer the major losses that Brun did.

That's a fine distinction of which Renee is entirely unaware. She only knows that he was there at the bar.

[pwhodges]

She only knows that he was there at the bar.

which burnt down while he was there...

[Tova]

Again - she doesn't know that. He could easily have stepped out shortly before it happened.

Come one, try to separate your knowledge from the equation.

[pwhodges]

Renee was told in the first conversation: "The bar burnt down last night"..."A man who was at the bar last night is helping me".  It's pretty hard not to see a connection.

[Tova]

Sure, the connection can be made. Basically, you are condemning her for not making the same string of assumptions that you are making. That Clinton must have been a victim. Further, that a victim could not possibly have ulterior motives.

Now, look. It's perfectly reasonable to say that Clinton is undeserving of her suspicion. That is fair enough. Of course he is, from our perspective and his. But by the same token, from her perspective, I can understand that there are some reasons behind her fear and suspicion, and that there may well be quite good reasons we don't know about yet.

Which is why I am not rushing to judgement.

I am perfectly willing to admit, in the future, that hey you were right, and she is controlling, manipulative, whatever. But I won't ever admit to being wrong for being slower to come to those conclusions than everyone else.

[Neko_Ali]

Nobody is saying that Renee is wrong for being suspicious. We're saying she's a jerk because she immediately jumped to threats of physical violence towards someone who the only thing she knew about was that he helped her friend out when her bar and home burned down.

[chaospersonified]

Besides, there's no evidence those threats were sincere, that she would have carried them out. When you're afraid for a friend, you might say things you wouldn't do, to give a show that your friend is cared for, and you shouldn't mess around with them.

[bhtooefr]

I might be a little late to this but my mum "borrowed" mine years ago so they were available to 60hz utilities. The trick is finding one in either a sally-ann or some other thrift style store. Pawn shops I avoid except to giggle at the ludicrous asking prices. Yard sales in older neighborhoods are also good.

The problem in the US is that 24 hour time representations are basically only used by military and computer types (to the point that 24 hour time is called "military time"), so finding flip clocks specifically that use it, without just modifying them (if they're at least an AM/PM one), is basically impossible in the US.

(And the coordinates in your profile put you in the South Pacific Ocean between New Zealand and Chile.)

[Tova]

Nobody is saying that Renee is wrong for being suspicious. We're saying she's a jerk because she immediately jumped to threats of physical violence towards someone who the only thing she knew about was that he helped her friend out when her bar and home burned down.

I say that she was wrong for doing that, but that she's not a jerk for doing the wrong thing out of fear. She's not a jerk for being scared for her friend.

Like I said, this may all end up proven wrong further down the track. Angus's flatmates might be right, and she is after all a jerk.

P.S. I do actually think at least one person is saying she's wrong for being suspicious.

[Tova]

Sorry for the double post, but I do have one more thing to add:

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=12
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=459

Threats of violence as an endearing expression of love for the one defended are kind of a trope in this comic, in case you hadn't noticed. My archive-fu is poor, so there are probably more.

[pwhodges]

P.S. I do actually think at least one person is saying she's wrong for being suspicious.

I distinguish suspicion from caution.  Caution is reasonable; caution plus evidence = justified suspicion.  Unjustified suspicion is paranoia, and that is not a good way to run one's life.

[sitnspin]

Paranoia is irrational fear. Suspicion based on previous experience is not irrational. Her reaction may have been extreme and inappropriate, but her suspicion isn't necessarily without merit.

[blue5]

Nobody is saying that Renee is wrong for being suspicious. We're saying she's a jerk because she immediately jumped to threats of physical violence towards someone who the only thing she knew about was that he helped her friend out when her bar and home burned down.

I am going to be the person thats says she is wrong to be suspicious. Caring is one hing. Playing parent or guardian is another. If she was in Brun's shoes and was in the situation, suspicion might be warranted, but she is an outsider to the details.