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Faye sees stars when Bubbles attempts to stop her from drinking

Faye sees everything red, white and blue-shifted

Faye gets convinced not to take a drink by Bubbles

Marten finds out about Faye's drinking - and is disappointed

Marten finds out about Faye's drinking - and beats her ass

Marten finds out about Faye's drinking - and Claire beats her ass

Pintsize slips Bubbles a few Bitcoin after convincing Faye not to drink

CorpseWitch finds out Faye was drinking on the job - and fires her

Bubbles then fires CorpseWitch into orbit

Hah ha ha ha... like Jeph's going to do any of that?

Waffles, spathe ham, and maple syrup

Purple Monkey Dishwashers on Elephants

None of the above

[elfly]

Total abstinence is kind of fucked up and probably leads to people relapsing in alcoholism over and over again

'Probably' being a key phrase, and 'kinda fucked up' is an opinion. I personally wouldn't exist if my mom hadn't gotten sober a few years before I was born. I can't, of course, say anything about my early years, but she's been sober for at least twenty, both my parents have. My dad went dry, too, just to show support.

With all due respect, this is not a good metric, cause any decision your mother or father had made would have ended up in you not existing, and possibly another pair of egg/sperm meeting and creating a different person, so ascribing any sort of special, dramatic significance to her alcohol consumption over which tv shows your mother watched, or which dress she chose to wear when she met your father. Any other decision would result in a different person from you existing.

My father also was what you'd define as an alcoholic, but nowadays he drinks occassionally; the important thing is not whether the way my father or mother drink alcohol is better than yours, but whether promoting that "alcoholics" cannot be around alcohol and have to quit completely is a reasonable position or not. It causes relapses and guilt and is definitely not a one size solution.

Alcoholics by definition can't deal with alcohol like normal people. Alcohol is generally a minefield for those who can't handle it well, and they're really much better off avoiding it entirely. Just like most people are better off staying far away from a literal minefield, leaving it to people with specialized training and equipment. Even for those people, minefields are still dangerous and need to be handled with care.

"Alcoholics by definition" is ... not a really good definition. People with alcohol abuse problems can learn to drink moderately. You are only perpetuating a view promoted by AA for religious reasons, defining a group of people as "dangerous around alcohol" forever, regardless of what they do. This is not a healthy view.

The difference between addicts and non-addicts is the don't have 'just a drink'. Complete abstinence is often the only way they have to deal with their problem. Because they can never have 'just a drink' to relax, or reward. One becomes two, becomes a bottle, becomes sneaking around and lying about drinking. Because living life while impaired because you are always drunk or hung over and craving.

There are better treatments for addictions than just going cold turkey and keep total abstinence forever. But for whatever reasons, the AA brand of being branded an alcoholic forever and having to keep living in abstinence your whole life or be deemed a failure took hold of the american thought.

[Gyrre]

Odd side bar: what regional accent do you all read Bubbles voice in?

For me it's sort of an even-toned Midwest cosmopolitan accent (think Dallas, Texas or Clevland, Ohio)

To me, most American accents kinda sound alike (except those from the Deep South and perhaps Chicago), but I suppose the accent I imagine her using would be Midwestern. From what I gather, the accent I think of as "typical, usual American" is close to Midwestern, and I imagine most English-speaking characters using it unless there's an indication they might have a strong regional accent. I might be wrong, though. Maybe the accent I'm thinking of is nowhere near the Midwest.

Born and raised in Kansas. It's Mid-Western. Though in some parts it's just "the city folk" that talk like that. Some big cities will still have quite a few residents with a bit of rural drawl, namely Oklahoma City and any big city in Missouri

[Tova]

There were never any consequences like that expressed for falling off the wagon the last time so why should this time be any different? 

If there are no consequences, then Marten becomes part of Faye's addiction. If Faye is consistently relapsing, then things will get worse and worse. Remember the trip to the hospital? Expect more of that. Also expect Faye to become more and more irresponsible, and for her drinking to have bad effects on those around her, including Marten. Eventually the friendship will be destroyed by her addictive behavior. If he wants to avoid that, the time to put a stop to it is now.

Brasca never said "no consequences," just no consequences like that (i.e. being kicked out of her home). Neither did I say no consequences. Just that Marten won't kick her out unless Faye's behaviour gets a lot worse than what we've seen.

If Faye "consistently relapses" -- and I will remind you yet again that it's still only been once, and that doesn't count as consistently in the dictionary I have at hand -- if she does, then I am sure that there will be options available other than nothing (enabling) or kicking her out (I'm not a psychologist, but I imagine that being abandoned by her best friend won't make things better).

[Morituri]

Born and raised in Kansas. It's Mid-Western. Though in some parts it's just "the city folk" that talk like that. Some big cities will still have quite a few residents with a bit of rural drawl, namely Oklahoma City and any big city in Missouri

Yeah, TV stations used to recruit newscasters and stuff in Wichita KS, Kansas City MO, and Omaha NB because those particular accents sound "Neutral" to a most Americans.  I'm originally from Kansas myself.

There are a bunch of little regionalisms all over depending on who the first settlers in the area were and how long ago they arrived.  Usually though, so small that they're hard to notice.  Most places in Kansas, the main difference between urban and rural was the rate of speech; the urbans want you to talk a lot faster so they can say the answer they've already got in their heads before they even hear what you have to say, and the rurals don't trust or take seriously anyone who speaks faster than they believe s/he can think.  It has led to misunderstandings and tensions at times though most folk who go back and forth learn to 'mode-switch' as necessary.

[chaospersonified]

Elfly, (removed by moderator), I say I would not exist because my parents were on the brink of divorce. Going sober saved the marriage. You are making literally the argument I made at 6 years old for why I would still exist if my parents hadn't met.

You say 'better.' I say 'other,' because some people cannot be around it and partake without it going further.

Also, guilt is not the basis of why AA works. AA works through support. If a group is telling someone they're 'lesser' because they relapsed, that is a shit group who doesn't understand what the organization is about. Any alcoholic could relapse. I have a friend who admitted recently through Facebook that they had, and she got nothing but support, not an inch of guilt-tripping. People shared stories about when THEY relapsed, to show solidarity, saying a relapse isn't the end of things.

Nobody calls someone a failure for relapse. That's not the way AA works.

I understand a distaste for the program. It's not perfect, so few things are. I do NOT understand whatever this campaign is that you're waging against a program that lots of people depend on and use to find help.

[Isyrion]

I like the nick name Palkyrie but can see why Bubbles vetoed it.  Hopefully our large metal friend helps Faye get her head screwed back on straight.

[Tova]

I've seen a decent amount of criticism of AA. It's not hard to find if you want to read it. I won't weigh in too heavily on that because I have no experience in this area, but I don't think it's too much of a long shot to say that it doesn't appear to work for everyone (I've seen success rates somewhere between 5-10% posted). There are alternatives that may work better for a substantial number of people.

[swapna]

I understand a distaste for the program. It's not perfect, so few things are. I do NOT understand whatever this campaign is that you're waging against a program that lots of people depend on and use to find help.

Mostly because it's not the best way to treat people. If you have a better alternative with higher success rate which doesn't refuse to be studied (which we do), why not criticise the old?

It's been bugging me too, all that talk about 'Faye has to hit rock bottom' and 'as long as she has money, she'll use it on booze' when I suggested it might be kind of heartless to leave her completely without support/fire her on the spot. Addiction treatment doesn't work the same for everybody - some people find it works for them when they go cold turkey, some people stop gradually and some still partake now and again, but in controlled and "healthy" doses. The method that has a very low success rate is kicking people when they're down.

For now, Marten has no reason to kick her out; after she got fired, she immediately got a (better-paid) job, and she hasn't touched a drink for months. She also tries to not burden him with this, which is why she's at Palkyrie's place.

[jheartney]

[She also tries to not burden him with this, which is why she's at Palkyrie's place.

Doubt that. More likely she knows he'll do more than just stare disapprovingly, and also she feels guilty about it (rightly).

If Faye "consistently relapses" -- and I will remind you yet again that it's still only been once,

And I'll point out again that she's about to have her second relapse. Which she's hiding from Marten by doing it at Bubbles' place.

[Method of Madness]

Well, she might. We don't know yet.

[Tova]

And I'll point out again that she's about to have her second relapse. Which she's hiding from Marten by doing it at Bubbles' place.

We're going around in circles. Two is not consistently either. How many more choruses do you want?

And it's not two yet.

[alanari]

Faye relearning how to drink like a normal person is probably a good thing.

An addict cannot and will never learn to drink normally again. A lot of them have tried. It's called "controlled drinking" and I have yet to read about a controlled drinker who did that long-term without relapse. Addiction doesn't work this way.

Addiction is a subconscious link between alcohol and certain happy hormones. The thing is, we don't control our subconscious mind. It controls us. Consciousness is a step behind, we don't do what we want, we want what we do. And it wants those happy-hormones.

If you are a heavy but non addicted drinker, you can change your drinking pattern. An addict can't.

I have addicts in my family, so I read a lot about their stories and how it works, to deal with them appropriately. I have read many stories from dry alcoholics who hadn't had a drink in 20 years. They have mostly happy, normal lives.
I have read one story from a "controlled drinker" who claims to have managed to do that for more than 2 years. His whole story was full of self-pity, no real self-reflection, which reached a high-point when he was contemplating about why he hit his woman in front of his kids on Christmas. He's a 100% wet alcoholic, he thinks like one, he acts like one (although most alcoholics use verbal aggression, not physical), he just doesn't want to see it and praises the advantages of controlled drinking wherever possible.

[wlewisiii]

Side note, draining a bottle of bourbon on your own, in one night, as Faye's history would suggest she's about to do, is anything BUT 'drinking like a normal person.'

Well, are we talking a pint, fifth, quart, half gallon ... butt? A pint is not really all that much in some places (Wisconsin deer hunting camp, forex) and Churchill was alleged to go through a quart an evening at the hight of WWII.

All of which is to say, intended humorously, is that everyone is different and that one person's normal is another person's excess and a third person's teatotalling.

[Tova]

The suspense is killing me.

[Oenone]

One thing to keep in mind when looking at the recovery rates for substance abuse is that they're actually in line with the numbers associated with other chronic illnesses that require lifestyle management, like diabetes and hypertension. So, you'd actually kind of expect that their long term success rate would be kinda wonky... Especially because the best rates of success require both a long term commitment and a personal investment that you don't necessarily get in programs that have been court ordered.

[Tova]

I agree that court ordered rehabilitation is unlikely to be successful when the treatment requires a personal commitment (which I imagine pretty much any behavioural approach would).

After a bit of googling, I present this page purely for discussion: http://www.behaviortherapy.com/researchdiv/whatworks.aspx

[syclick]

This may have been stated before, but I think one of the reasons Faye hasn't wanted a drink for so long is because she's been involved in helping others with their problems, particularly Bubbles. She's focused on other people's issues for so long that she's lost sight of her own problems. I have a feeling that's what might happen tonight... She starts focusing on Bubble's problems and her desperation for a drink diminishes. Just a guess.

[BenRG]

I'm expecting some serious emotional bonding and Faye to drink just enough to end up doing something completely ridiculously warm and affectionate like refusing to let Bubbles recharge without "someone nearby to chase away the nightmares". Final strip in the arc is Faye waking up with a sore... everything... from sleeping in Bubbles' lap overnight and not really remembering anything clearly. She starts to freak out until Bubbles tells her 'nothing untoward happened'.

[Is it cold in here?]

Welcome, insightful new person!

Other people's problems, maybe, or the same facts might also say that she's in a community and being productive.

[Near Lurker]

And this is when Faye decides to make a massive coffee cake.

[BenRG]

((Reads new comic)) Well, I didn't expect Faye's reaction to be so strong without so much as a word said! I think that Bubbles is not going to get anything done tonight; Faye's mental and emotional state will be too delicate for her to do anything but hug her as she cries.

[USS Martenclaire]

Faye - you can do this.

[Skewbrow]

Bubbles played this perfectly. Just the right amount of (lack of) pressure.

I am a bit uncertain about the theory that people recovering from alcoholism must be teetotallers. I believe the experts and the many stories that it is the only way. But have the patients really been "healed" unless they can use alcohol like normal people? I see the need to get used to the idea of not needing to drink, but... It somehow feels like full recovery could aim higher (if you want to call it that).

I guess it shows that I have never witnessed the struggles of a patient :-/

[TinPenguin]

I think you may have a point, but I also think that most alcoholics never are 'fully healed'.

By the way, the numbers in the thread title are wrong.

[Morituri]

I think that Bubbles is not going to get anything done tonight; Faye's mental and emotional state will be too delicate for her to do anything but hug her as she cries.

You say that as though you think holding someone while they're crying isn't doing anything important for someone's mental and emotional state? 

I think maybe you don't mean what it sounded like you meant?

[oddtail]

OK, important disclaimer: I do not have professional knowledge regarding the biology or psychology of alcoholism. Whatever I say next is based on information I trust, but not information that has hard scientific data behind it, and it's information that I am not able to verify.

That being said:

I used to listen in to a weekly radio broadcast on a Polish radio station. The broadcast is half music, half stories and experiences regarding alcoholism. As the guy who runs the broadcast says every week, he's a long-time alcoholic, and he wanted to talk about his experience. So he went to the radio station and said "hey, let me talk about this". And they let him.

(I'm relaying the opening almost verbatim - well, except that "it's in Polish" part)

The broadcast alternated between taking calls from listeners (alcoholics, their families, friends) and talking to people who have had professional or semi-professional experience with treating addiction (to alcohol or drugs). That included doctors, workers at rehab centers, etc. It's also my strong impression the man running the show, in addition to having had experience of alcoholism firsthand, also did his homework on the effects of alcohol and how it is handled when trying to manage addiction.

One thing I remembered being said over and over and over again in the broadcast is this: alcoholism is a disease, it is an incurable disease and it is in the end a fatal disease. You can live with it, but it never goes away. This was repeated ad nauseam, to the point of almost being a mantra. Callers and guests to the show said things to the exact same effect. According to the broadcast, alcoholism is not something you recover from, not something you can cure, you can only opt to stop drinking. The most memorable thing about the show was that the guy running the broadcast introduced himself, every single time, as "I am [name] and I am an alcoholic". I happen to know a guy who is family with that man, and from I gather he has been clean for years and years now. But this very matter-of-fact and direct "I am an alcoholic" that was said every time is still something he decided to share with the audience every single week.

So, I don't have medical data regarding addiction, but if what I heard on that radio show is accurate, there is no such thing as fully recovering from alcoholism so that you can go back to drinking. You can be an alcoholic and function, you can be an alcoholic and appear to function, or you can be an alcoholic and it will damage your life and one day kill you. Both the explicit things said and the general vibe of the broadcast was that if you are an alcoholic and still drink, you still have a problem even if you appear to function OK. It may not kill you or ruin your life directly, but you're still not completely fine.

I thought I'd share this, I'm sure there's someone from the forum who has more grounded information regarding the medical side of things, but it appears to many, many alcoholics who decided to speak their mind on the show, it's either "drink" or "control your problem", with no real in-between.

And once again, take what I wrote with a grain of salt, I have no firm confirmation of this. But the stories I heard and the talks they had were very convincing. And they do mesh with the addiction problems I've seen in members of my close family and friends (mostly not alcohol-related, although it's there, too).

[alanari]

But have the patients really been "healed" unless they can use alcohol like normal people?

I understand the thought, but there is no healing or cure when it comes to addiction. It's a lifelong condition. An addict has this thing in his brain, I don't know the English name, the literal translation is "addiction memory". It never goes away and it doesn't allow a normal drinking pattern. It's what controls the whole behavior of an addict and is the reason why all addicts behave strikingly similar, regardless of which drug is used, including gambling.
When a clean addict starts taking his drug again, it slowly regains control over him. Inevitable. Can take days or years.. but it will happen.

[Mr. Skawronska]

I wonder if we'll find out Bubbles's story.

She will tell it when she is damn good and ready and not a moment sooner.

[swapna]

When we're on the topic of anecdotal evidence - maybe the reason I feel different is because I've seen more than one way of how things like this could end.
I know alcoholics who can't and won't stop, people similar to those you're talking about, but I've also seen people who were blackout drunk on a regular basis (including hospital visits for said problem) for a while but then stopped gradually until they only drank safe amounts of it; it was a matter of both improving their life situations and ditching the people they  were drinking with. They still like to drink, and if you'd put the label 'alcoholic' on them, they'd be very guilty of regular relapses (and probably feel very guilty about it, too), but like this, it worked out guilt-free and just fine.
I've also seen people change with the help of treatment and medicine; successfully so, even though some aren't afraid of alcohol and still drink. They just do it in safe amounts and not alone. Some don't touch it, but that's just the solution that works for them.

I've seen similar things with other drugs; kicking the habit and the difficulty of doing so depends very much on the person, if they have support from their friends and family, if they figure out why they abuse those drugs so much, how long they've waited (drugs do a lot of damage) and how deep they're in the rabbit hole.

On the comic: Aww, Faye. Maybe she figured out that not all things are being shitty - Palkyrie (I'm going to use that name foreverrr... it is the best name!) is being a great friend, and her presence and her sympathetic microphone might stop Faye. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

[BenRG]

I think that Bubbles is not going to get anything done tonight; Faye's mental and emotional state will be too delicate for her to do anything but hug her as she cries.

You say that as though you think holding someone while they're crying isn't doing anything important for someone's mental and emotional state? 

I think that you may be reading between the words and seeing things that aren't there.

[brasca]

I wonder if we'll find out Bubbles's story.

She will tell it when she is damn good and ready and not a moment sooner.

Agreed and maybe the need to be sober enough to hear it will compel Faye to stay on the wagon. 

[Mad Cat]

In this strip: Bubs beams her evil robot mind control rays directly into Faye's frontal cortex, "You don't want to drink that alcohol. You won't drink that alcohol. You're gonna pour that alcohol into my fuel cell."

[Welu]

[Radium_Coyote]

Faye has always been a tougher bird than she realizes.

[jheartney]

Faye's putting up a fight (good for her!) and Bubbles is being the perfect friend. In QC, emotionally damaged folks (Hanners, Bubbles) can be terrific human beings people.

Faye's not out of the woods yet. Hope she makes it. If she does, she owes Bubbles big time.

[Wildroses]

I swear panel two Faye was hoping Bubbles would say something about how drinking was a bad idea, just so she could go: "You don't tell me what to do and to prove it I'm going to drink this now!" She does have a history of responding to all comments from friends suggesting restraint with alcohol by deciding to keep drinking or increase her drinking, even if they were only saying: "You know I think you might have had enough for tonight."

[freeman]

Faye, drink your rotgut like a man, you little ****.

The difference between addicts and non-addicts is the don't have 'just a drink'. Complete abstinence is often the only way they have to deal with their problem. Because they can never have 'just a drink' to relax, or reward. One becomes two, becomes a bottle, becomes sneaking around and lying about drinking. Because living life while impaired because you are always drunk or hung over and craving.

That's pretty fucked up too. People drink to get drunk. Period.

That said, when multi day heavy binges once become the norm, it's pretty hard to stay in any kind of moderation, hence going completely dry or one becomes one of those funny tragic characters who stay months dry at times and then have a few days of total mayhem every once in a while.

[Penquin47]

Awww, drink your rotgut like a man, you little ****.

The difference between addicts and non-addicts is the don't have 'just a drink'. Complete abstinence is often the only way they have to deal with their problem. Because they can never have 'just a drink' to relax, or reward. One becomes two, becomes a bottle, becomes sneaking around and lying about drinking. Because living life while impaired because you are always drunk or hung over and craving.

That's pretty fucked up too. People drink to get drunk. Period.

Not that simple.  I enjoy the occasional drink with dinner or having a beer while watching a football game, but if I've ever been drunk, then it is a seriously disappointing experience.

[alanari]

When we're on the topic of anecdotal evidence - maybe the reason I feel different is because I've seen more than one way of how things like this could end.

Not everyone who drinks heavily is addicted. There are people with horrid alcohol intake without addiction. Those can return to a normal drinking schedule. Most teens to that when they grow out of the "being drunk is cool"-age.

[freeman]

At least I get pretty strong euphoria from heavy drinking.

Long binges are the worst though, it doesn't even work properly from the third day on. No thank you.

Still I really despise cultures that try to chain drinking into that laughable one to two with food kind of pretention, when total bliss is but few shots away. Perverted. Much preferable are the cultures that do allow the few national get wasted days a year. That's a communal thing like some ayahuasca ritual in deep amazon, a cleansing ritual by its truest nature.

[MooskiNet]

That's pretty fucked up too. People drink to get drunk. Period.

One of the hardest ideas to internalize is the concept that not everyone's experiences mirror our own, even when the experiences appear identical.

[Is it cold in here?]

I think that Bubbles is not going to get anything done tonight; Faye's mental and emotional state will be too delicate for her to do anything but hug her as she cries.

You say that as though you think holding someone while they're crying isn't doing anything important for someone's mental and emotional state? 

I think maybe you don't mean what it sounded like you meant?

I can't speak for BenRG but if he meant that Bubbles won't get any housework or correspondence or leisure projects done, that would make sense. The Pugnacious Peach is going to need full-time attention for a while.

Which starts an interesting thought. What kind of distorted workaholic culture produced me that I can unquestioningly read "not going to get anything done" about someone helping a friend in crisis, and think it makes sense at first?

[comicalArchitect]

There's a concept in Homestuck called moirallegiance. It's a sort of platonic life partnership, where two very different people agree to balance one another out and help each other through life. I think Marten and Faye previously had that sort of relationship, but it looks like Faye is beginning to switch to Bubbles for that kind of support (which makes me wonder: will Marten gain another Faye in his life, or will he learn to live without someone like that in his life?).

[Morituri]

I think that Bubbles is not going to get anything done tonight; Faye's mental and emotional state will be too delicate for her to do anything but hug her as she cries.

You say that as though you think holding someone while they're crying isn't doing anything important for someone's mental and emotional state? 

I think that you may be reading between the words and seeing things that aren't there.

Oh good; I've rarely been happer to've been wrong.

[JimC]

That's pretty fucked up too. People drink to get drunk. Period.

One of the hardest ideas to internalize is the concept that not everyone's experiences mirror our own, even when the experiences appear identical.

Mmm. Personally I enjoy certain alcoholic drinks, and I really hate the fact that, if I wanted, for example to spend an evening enjoying a selection of vintage Scotch whiskies, by the 3rd or 4th all discrimination and appreciation of the taste would be gone. Always frustrated me about beer festivals too: there might be 20 or 30 brews I'd rather like to try, but actually it became pointless after four or five.

[freeman]

That's pretty fucked up too. People drink to get drunk. Period.

One of the hardest ideas to internalize is the concept that not everyone's experiences mirror our own, even when the experiences appear identical.

Yea, I know a guy who microdoses on psychedelics too, like multiple times a month or more. I see it and understand why but simultaneously acknowledge that's not productive for me.

[blue5]

Faye...drink, drink, drink...it will all be better soon.

[Timemaster]

Wild guess: tomorrow we´ll see a picture of a surprised Corpse Witch, listening to the sound of something made of glass bursting on a wall.

Also: new faces again. 
I´m once again amazed how Jeph manages to visualize the inner turmoil and fight Faye goes through. Is someone else reminded of Gavia crying after realizing she´s lost her nanotech?

TM

[anahata]

Faye's putting up a fight (good for her!) and Bubbles is being the perfect friend. In QC, emotionally damaged folks (Hanners, Bubbles) can be terrific human beings people.

They certainly can,  but the wounded healer is not a new idea, nor exclusive to QC.

[anahata]

I´m once again amazed how Jeph manages to visualize the inner turmoil and fight Faye goes through.

In those frames I'm seeing Faye coming to the startling inner revelation that what she's about to do won't actually make her feel any better. It would be amazing if she put the bottle down and admitted that she couldn't do it.

Bubbles has been masterful, by simply asking Faye to explain her motivation and thus make her think about what she's doing and why, and see how irrational it is.